On the Other Hand's page

Ok so Occult is ok? I wanted to try a Psychic and have him go Unchained Monk later.

I wonder how good an unchained monk//druid would be. Would love to see it paired with reincarnated druid. The monk that can shapeshift and never stays dead and needs no gear to be good.

I had a similar issue with my half orc scarred witchdoctor. I got lucky and am running him in a home game. We mixed 3.5 stuff and so forth so my character has survived but only barely and with a loss of a feat to pick up a 3rd party Lost Tradition for Con to all Int casting issues. We are just trying to determine if I now count my Con as +2 for caster level in place of Int.

On the Other Hand wrote:

Azlanti Human + Advanced is a +6 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor.

Otherwise known as... yeah that 10 point buy didn't suck so bad.

"Sure, I'll play a core only monk"

I know right!

Hell give me Kasatha and Advanced and I will play a CRB Monk.

On the Other Hand wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

On the Other Hand wrote:

Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.

What does that prove? The fact there are things out there that unbalance the game even worse is beside the point. They are also not allowed in my games. As I said I would not allow the +2 bonus to all stats unless I was running a game where all the characters got that. As I stated it is about fairness not the power level. Players are given a framework to build their characters and should expect to keep the character within that framework.

The alternative human racial trait Versatile Human trades out the extra feat and skill points. That is available for players to use. This is also the reason why trading out the human bonus feat is not good enough. I give a generous point buy to my players so they can simply use the points to purchase stats based on the concept.

Which is valid but as someone above has mentioned the Assimar can trade out a 1/day Light spell to gain an additional +2 to a useful stat giving them +2 to over half their ability scores.

So if someone at your table did that, and the rest where playing humans. What would you do to balance it?

My table does not use Point Buys, we roll dice. 4d6, Reroll 1s as we did in 3.5 where we all started. It is just tradition at our tables.
A Azlanti is a good way to equalize the party if someone rolls really poorly.

We once had someone roll nothing below a 15 and in that same party was someone who rolled two 9s, giving them a +2 boost would have helped them balance out. So I think there is both a mechanical use for that as well as RP purposes for it without just saying shut it down.

That option was from an older 3.5 book so I don’t use that option. I let...

The Aasimar option is not 3.5. It is a alternate racial thing that can be done for the Aasimar in Pf which is in the Features Races of the Advanced Races Guide.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar bottom of page, sure this is a 3rd party room but it is a valid variant.

Azlanti Human + Advanced is a +6 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor.
Otherwise known as... yeah that 10 point buy didn't suck so bad.

No - spontaneous casters like Bards don't gain extra spells known for their casting stat.

Although there is now an item that allows you to add to that list.

Is that expended when you use it? Like a scroll?

On the Other Hand wrote:

Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.

What does that prove? The fact there are things out there that unbalance the game even worse is beside the point. They are also not allowed in my games. As I said I would not allow the +2 bonus to all stats unless I was running a game where all the characters got that. As I stated it is about fairness not the power level. Players are given a framework to build their characters and should expect to keep the character within that framework.

The alternative human racial trait Versatile Human trades out the extra feat and skill points. That is available for players to use. This is also the reason why trading out the human bonus feat is not good enough. I give a generous point buy to my players so they can simply use the points to purchase stats based on the concept.

Which is valid but as someone above has mentioned the Assimar can trade out a 1/day Light spell to gain an additional +2 to a useful stat giving them +2 to over half their ability scores.

So if someone at your table did that, and the rest where playing humans. What would you do to balance it?

My table does not use Point Buys, we roll dice. 4d6, Reroll 1s as we did in 3.5 where we all started. It is just tradition at our tables.
A Azlanti is a good way to equalize the party if someone rolls really poorly.

We once had someone roll nothing below a 15 and in that same party was someone who rolled two 9s, giving them a +2 boost would have helped them balance out. So I think there is both a mechanical use for that as well as RP purposes for it without just saying shut it down.

Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.

Or just start them 1level behind and let them by it off between 4-5 to be equal. Or yeah one step lower point buy.

Then stranger how do you run humans I mean that bonus feat is powerful? What do you make them play half elf and just have them say they are human?

On the Other Hand wrote:

I am just surprised that people would not let someone who rolls really just roll really well without punishing them somehow.

So if they get uber lucky and roll all 18s they deserved to be punished and penalized in effort to be fair.

So why don't we just make it a straight array of 12s I mean that is uber fair.

Hilariously, an array of straight 12's is incredibly unfair because it shifts the balance towards anything with a buddy, particularly Summoners and other conjuring classes.

Actually it gives anyone who is a caster an edge, As 12 means you can cast level 2 spells without needing to boost your scores any. But yes Summoners and the like get great aid from that.

My comment was more about how it seemed like everyone was saying rolled stats are just awful because random chance might occur.

Sure it sucks when your the guy who rolls really low. But why kill the buzz of the guy who got the high roll? Why does he have to be subpar just because luck shat on the other guy?

It reminds me of that thing they do in schools today where everyone get a trophy, the exact same identical trophy for participating.
Where the kid who is actually good at it and tries his hardest gets the same exact reward as the kid who stood there picking his nose and complained about having to move the whole time.

Yes it sucks to roll low, but it feels awesome to roll high its why we get a thrill when we roll a critical threat.

I am just surprised that people would not let someone who rolls really just roll really well without punishing them somehow.

So if they get uber lucky and roll all 18s they deserved to be punished and penalized in effort to be fair.

So why don't we just make it a straight array of 12s I mean that is uber fair.

When the heck did Luck become a bad thing in D&D or PF? How do you guys stand rolling dice for To Hit or Damage? How do you do that when it all comes down to luck and thus might be really unfair. I mean the other guy could roll really bad.

Fair and Balanced is hard to do in a game based on dice.

Here is the problem with over powered races. It isn't that the GM can't 'deal' with them, it that it limits anyone else playing to either being sub-par or also only playing the 'super races'

You allow your Sasquatch with +12 str in your game, and that player plays him as a barbarian. I am also interesting in playing a barbarian, and being a fan of Conan, I pick a human. Now, with the other player getting a bonus of +5 to hit and damage compared to me, I am looking pretty pathetic, and probably not having too much fun. This addition of the Sasquatch has probably made any non-Sasquatch melee character not viable in your game, and pretty soon any one who plays a melee character will feel like they have to be a Sasquatch.

Other powerful races have similar problems. If one choice is clearly mechanically superior to others then by allowing it, you are in effect almost disallowing anything else.

Indeed, but also you have the issue of that Sasquatch playing levels behind. So while your BAB grows and you gain more access to cool Class Features they dont get them for several levels. So that human has a Rage Power, +3 BAB, 3d12 HD, Good Fort save and so forth and access to more then just the racial weapon (Club in this case)

On the Other Hand wrote:

I agree, I am just saying I am playing the advocate of the player, I agree with you all we need to find a proper balancing point.

But I did have a question, say the player picked a human character, but was using a rolled system and got all 18s. Would that person need to be penalized with a adjustment in level, or stats or something to balance out the party?

I ask this because while doing a 2d6+6 roll I did manage an all 18... which my DM promptly checked my dice for signs of cheating and then rolled my dice a good dozen times and figured my dice where just lucky when he hit a few 18s but also rolled a few 3s.

Yes, that's why we use point buy and don't roll for stats. Actually, I am more generous than that, and use a stat array. 16/16/15/14/13/11 (before racial adjustments), distributed as you like. No one likes playing sidekick to the guy that rolled all 18s.

Luck should not determine something so long lasting and important.

Dave Justus wrote:

Here is the problem with over powered races. It isn't that the GM can't 'deal' with them, it that it limits anyone else playing to either being sub-par or also only playing the 'super races'

You allow your Sasquatch with +12 str in your game, and that player plays him as a barbarian. I am also interesting in playing a barbarian, and being a fan of Conan, I pick a human. Now, with the other player getting a bonus of +5 to hit and damage compared to me, I am looking pretty pathetic, and probably not having too much fun. This addition of the Sasquatch has probably made any non-Sasquatch melee character not viable in your game, and pretty soon any one who plays a melee character will feel like they have to be a Sasquatch.

Other powerful races have similar problems. If one choice is clearly mechanically superior to others then by allowing it, you are in effect almost disallowing anything else.

Exactly, if your race is better for a character type (such a melee fighter) than any other...

I don't really like Point Buy, it makes everything seem so static and dry and boring.

And I must ask now, how to do you handle the end game power difference. When the Wizard can casually destroy countries at will, and the Barbarian is barely able to put a dent in another level 20 fighter... how do you handle that power difference because there goes balance.

I agree, I am just saying I am playing the advocate of the player, I agree with you all we need to find a proper balancing point.

But I did have a question, say the player picked a human character, but was using a rolled system and got all 18s. Would that person need to be penalized with a adjustment in level, or stats or something to balance out the party?

I ask this because while doing a 2d6+6 roll I did manage an all 18... which my DM promptly checked my dice for signs of cheating and then rolled my dice a good dozen times and figured my dice where just lucky when he hit a few 18s but also rolled a few 3s.

You missed the part where I said you're trading in darkvision and light sensitvity for just plain low light vision. So no, no saddling there.

And a sasquatch isn't a wookie.

Yes I did miss that part somehow, thank you.

And no they are much smarter and more cunning then an average Wookie if you believe they exist today in the real world.

They want mechanical benefits that outweigh that of other races (that are available to other players). That is the rub.

We don't need to use humans specifically, but there is probably something that can be refitted to match the fluff and still be relatively balaced.

Sasquath? Use an Orc, +4 strength, -2 int/wis/cha. Lose darkvision and light sensitvity and trade for low-light vision. Begins play with sasquatch language. Trade ferocity for scent. Trade weapon familiarity for woodland stride. And either a +2 to stealth or survival for only having one language. Pretty simple reskin that should do the job in my book. There you have a sasquatch.

That is a really good reskin. But that also saddles them with Light Sensitivity and a serious neg to all mental stats. Focusing them to pour all their points into mental stats to off so their not suffering a mental handicap due to their physical strength.

Not saying that is not fair, but might not play into the players desire for the character, I mean seriously have you seen Chewie? I doubt he has Negs to more then Cha.

Now yes this is Far more balanced, but also cuts into the character a bit, sure he can play the character as wise and strong and blah blah blah but when he tries to roll that knowledge check he is suffering a serious neg to it when hell maybe thats his character to know that such as Knowledge Nature check for a creature who lives exclusively in the woods suffering a -1 for example to the check... why?

On the Other Hand wrote:

I really dislike the idea of Punishing a player for wanting to play a unique creature or race.

In my experience the players after really unique races are after the mechanical benefits, not the role play of such a unique race. This is nto true of all players, but many.

If a player is not willing to be a little worse to fulfill his concept, in my mind then he's not after the role play he's after the mechanics.

Perhaps I am a bit jaded from the the consistently annoying munchkin who attempts to do such things in every game we play, but this is simply my experience.

I will say that I have some minor experience with players who are not attempting to just go for mechanics and are willing to accept that their character will not be as strong. Usually, to those players I will try to make sure that I provide extra bonuses in game for them. Such as one player wanted to play a ninja kitty. Yes, a house cat that was a ninja. Using house cat stats. He got a free helm of telepathy that only worked with his caretaker (who was a squire as per the feat).

However letting a player play a race with a +12 strength bonus or regeneration 10 is pretty much just straight out the door. Not without significant drawbacks.

I am not talking about adjustments as a punishment. I mean like the old LA adjustments of 3.5 style punishment. Where you play with RHD and a boat load of bloated LA empty levels that where basically there just to say "No screw you" to a player wanting to play something.

Of course they want mechanical benefits. Again we then fall into the trap of Then why not just use Human mechanics for every race just reskin them. You want to play a Elf, Halfling, Dwarf, Etc you get a +2 to one chosen ability score and a free feat... refluff everything else. Elf has really long ears and the Halfling is just a very short person suffering from some sort of dwarfism.

Well lets look at the Sasquatch
Your a large Medium creature I would say roughly 7 foot tall you are also big and built like a brick house and have the strength to match. You are also the first target of anyone attacking the party as you are clearly the most imposing threat, the largest target for an archer and the most likely to get into trouble with citywatch guards who are looking to make sure trouble doesn't break out with the giant man-beast comes to town.

You also only speak Sasquatch and thus cannot be understood by anyone who didn't invest a skill point to learning to talk to you. Which adds more RP issues as people are not going to know what your saying is your translator is not there.
Yes you could mimick this with a Feral Gargun from 3.5 which has a handy Monster Race build in Races of Stone but its still not the same fluff or idea as for example the Sasquatch has that forest strider ability that sure you can handwave bonuses to but again thats not the character.

For Leprechaun they have a persona, their mischief makers, hard drinkers, and fun loving little snots. They are good at manipulation and getting out of trouble via magic or wit.
Yes you could use a gnome as refluff.. but why a gnome. Couldn't you play a human and say they are gnome sized rather then a gnome race if everyone is human all balance is there.

Refluff takes you only so far.

Yes you can say No to any idea that does not fit thats the ability of a DM.

Adjusting stats makes sense, typically what I do is run the stats shown into a point buy calculator and adjust for what the 15 points are and give adjustments off their. But you can still end up with pretty high stat adjustments. Though typically this also means the character is aiming toward a specific idea of the character. Example being the Sasquatch as a Barbarian, so he is a Str centric character who can be easily overcome with any other method of combat from fireballs to mind control adding buffs to str only goes so far. The Leprechaun has a lot of mind trick powers, basically as if it had a level of Bard so likely its going to be played more toward a bardic character where str is a serious problem and so getting in close and dealing damage is a good way to counter them.

Just playing Devils Advocate for argument sake, all the ideas are great so far.

There is a reflavor option but I also have to say when you break it down to that point then there is no point in any race. Oh you want to play an Elf that is a +2 to one ability and a bonus feat, you want to be a Dwarf? Your short and you have a +2 to one ability and a bonus feat.

Humans are OP, they have some of the best exclusive traits and feats, a free bonus feat, ect. So why wouldn't you just reflavor the most powerful race as that of what you want.

I really dislike the idea of Punishing a player for wanting to play a unique creature or race.

Well I know about the rule of playing the CR of the race as their level adjustment. So a CR 2 race would only be playable at level 3.
But I have heard you can pay off CR to half of the original CR of the creature rounded down. So a CR 2 becomes a CR 1 after three levels so at level 6 I think?

I was curious about something.

I know people in my group love playing the monster or at least a type of odd creature, rarely do we ever pull monsters like Abberations or the like.

But Feys and Monstrous Humanoids are popular.
So I was curious if anyone else would ever let one into their games? If you have have they screwed it up any? Would you recommend against it?

For example I have players who are looking at a Leprechaun and a Sasquatch Character idea.

I think the Sasquatch is wanting to play a Wookie like character while the Leprechaun is just a huge lover of Irish Lore and would love to be the little mischief maker (She has previously played a pixie like race I build for her.. and dang near TPKed the party with an exploding gunpowder incident.)

So if I let the Sasquatch into the game, should I be considered by his... well +12 Str?
Here is the 3rd party side like to him

What would you do if someone really wanted to play something like a Dryad a creature bonded to a tree who takes a d6 of Con damage every day they are more then 300 Ft from their tree.

https://dl-war-of-the-lance.obsidianportal.com/wikis/dragonlance-campaign-f eats

They have them here if you need to see them.

It is a feat, they also have Academic Priest which changes their Stat to Int.

If I recall it was War of the Lance, Legend of the Twins

Dynamic Priest is from Dragonlance, it allows divine caster to change their casting stat to Cha from Wis.

I agree the Bard//Swashbuckler fits the theme

Well I thought of maybe bring up the Paladin of Freedom Variant given that i am using the Gestalt rules from the same book.

Swash//Bard does seem to be pretty good, only real worry is Fort Save.

I want to make a character based on Cayden Cailen, someone who uses his great Cha to just rock the world around him. It is a Gestalt Game so he is gonna rock a few people with that alone.

I was thinking things like Swash//Warpriest (With Dynamic Priest for Cha casting)

Paladin//Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler//Bard
Bard//Paladin

Those are my general idea, of course my weapon of choice is the Rapier, with best way to enhance its threat range.

It does lose a BAB which is bad but not too bad. But once a day extract and a minor ranged weapon isn't too shabby right?

I mean what if you just went Swash/Gunslinger would that be better because you keep the full BAB?

Would a Sashbuckler 19/Gunslinger 1//Investigator 20 be any good?

I am just curious because this seems like an odd combo but one who could work.

Ok so I have seen an idea for a 3rd level character.
Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1/Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) 1/ Investigator (Sleuth) 1
This gives Int + 3xCha to Panache/Grint/Luck.

But what else would it give you? I know it gives a boost to both Will and Fort saves as well as a handful of extra skill points.

Ok so Trench Fighter gets a Bonus Equal to her Dex to damage with a firearm of her choice. But so do Gunslingers, would these stack as they are Unnamed Bonuses equal to her Dex but not her Dex score exactly?

Kasatha have a nice +2 Dodge Bonus, a +2 Wis and Dex bonus and no level adjust. Master of Many Styles lets me grab Pummeling Style and Boar style with my level one feat going for something like WEapon Finesse to get Dex to Hit, level 3 I can get slashing Grace to make a speed boxer who does insane damage because Dex is so high along with being lithe and very hard to hit. Was thinking of mixing in Sacred Fist, but with Kasatha might not need Flurry of blows but the extra +5 to Ac over time is nice, but not much else does it give me.

The Half-Giant I only consider due to the Bloodrage Powers which can due beautifully to mimic a Thor Like character. Warpriest Weapon Focus Warhammer allows any warhammer to get a serious upgrade in power as at level 20 or so this guy would be throwing 3d8s instead of a 2d6 large magical warhammer.

I tend to like the Spell eating and Untouchable Rager Archetypes which gives healing via eating spell slots, and Untouchable does not remove spell slots and gives a nice Spell Resistance, and Spell Eating lets you heal yourself up even without War Priest making a rager who can self heal.

Alright so in an upcoming game i am going to have to play two characters at the same time.

First character is a Kasatha Monk 2/Warpriest X
The next is a Half-Giant Bloodrager/Warpriest?

The Kasatha is a multi-armed close quarters specialist. the Half-Giant is going to basically be Thor, searching for the Hammer of Thunderbolts

Any advice?

Ok, thanks.

Did we? On the Sacred Fist and Monk AC bonus stacking?
I thought the Increase bonuses, the little +1s that went as you leveled would stack, but does Wis to AC stack?

Alright so we have tried for awhile and found no one to help us fill out of Kingmaker campaign. So we have decided to run this as a gestalt to help us better fill out our power and positional needs.

Now I need advice on class combos that would be best for the game.

I was thinking of a Bard//Swashbuckler (Appropriate archetypes included) for myself. I really like that style of charming character who can hold his own with a sword or sling a spell when he needs to.

A Brawler//??? for my buddy he likes the unarmed style but he does want a lot of power, perhaps Barbarian?

I know our third plays either Healers or Rogues. Is there any happy middle ground?

3.5 is allowed within reason.

I didn't say I expected them to answer, said I was love if one got involved. I would love a million dollars, don't expect to get handed it.

I am not exactly sure what you ment by "a kasatha PC, and a kasatha NPC follow the exact same rules barring GM fiat"

I am curious how this will play, I will likely try a Terrakinetic and maybe get someone elsein my party to play another type not sure which.

Man would love to port Stonechild over for this, that +8 Con would make this epic.

I know this has come up a few times now, and I would love to get a real answer from someone with official sources and clout even.

I know many people are adament about only getting two attacks at most and requiring the upper end of the Two-Weapon Fighting chain to gain more.

However, that is a generic rule, and we are talking about a specific ruling about a very specific race using a very specific racial trait/ability IE multiple arms.

I know standard PCs only get two attacks, but all those races have two arms and the rules normally applied are specifically for the two armed default.

Now we come to Multi-Weapon Fighting which stats that it replaces Two-Weapon Fighting for races with multiple arms. It also talks about reducing the penalties for fighting with multiple arms. And while this is a Monster Feat it is also a standard Combat Feat which is possible to be taken by PC, making this a PC Feat.

Now I would love for a dev to get involved and give us the clear cut answer to this question.

Well that is kind of silly, like saying you hate all Vampire Literature because you didn't like how Edward Cullen was a moody teenager and yet still a vampire.

Serenity is a feat from Dragon Compendium that allowed a Paladin to change their Cha based powers such as Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, etc to Wis.

Now I am curious how well this would make a Paladin gestalt up with a Warpriest?

Adding Wis to all saves (A second time to Will)

I was also considering how well the Sacredfist gestalted up with the Enlightened Paladin (SRD name) being both are unarmed variants.

Those are some good ideas, I assume when you say Cha based Magus you mean the Eldritch Scion?

You cannot go Eldritch Scion/Kensai as they both modify spells and replace Spell Recall and Knowledge Pool

UPDATE: Now the reason I wanted this combo is I am soon to be joining an established 14th level game. It mixes D&D and the Anime rule book (BESM) rules, and I inquired about adding PF since the Anime Rulebook does have a section for converting D&D to Anime and I could use that for PF with not much change.

One player is a Cyborg bodied AI with blessed knuckles and swords. One the most powerful is a vampiric touched human who has the demonic bloodlines and small demon underling, he can touch you and mimick an ability you have 1 ability at a time (Anime rules allow for custom abilities and the DM doesn't care how uber you make your character because he will just adjust his handling of your character for how uber you are.)

So in short.. I want to break the mold, the uberdemonling is well played but it currently trying to summon a demon lord so he can take its skin and add demonic resistances and so forth.

So any help making this character? So the ECL is 14 now not ECL 5, 5 is the baseline for most games I know to start it is why I always choose ECL 5 as a build point.

Sunlight Vulnerability (Ex)

A dread vampire hates the sun and takes 5 points of damage per round of direct exposure to sunlight. It does not benefit from its fast healing when exposed to sunlight.
Taken from Dread Vampire.

Alright here is the formula for my idea.

Drow Noble

Here is the Template
Dread Vampire

Level is going to be starting at level 5 ECL.
Now I know that this is insanely powerful.
In total that should mean that the character has 4 NPC classes or empty levels (Unlikely due to the sheer lack of HP it will give)
One level of PC classes.

Now I think Deeper Darkness as an At-will will help with the issues of being in the sun if someone gets clever and casts a sunlight based spell.

Now I am not sure of the class, I tend to favor casters for Vampires and Drow, but that would maybe be a little bit too much for this particular build (Sure I won't get 9ths in any normal class, but still it could be too much)

Any ideas?
Oh for summary here is what this gains more of less.
Str +8, Dex +10, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha
dancing lights, deeper darkness, faerie fire, feather fall, and levitate each at will
Constant Detect Magic
Divine Favor, Dispel Magic, and Suggestion as once a days (Drow)
Darkness, Fog Cloud (3/day)
Deeper Darkness (1/day) (Vampire)

Fast Healing 5
Gaseous Form
DR 10/Good and Silver
Immunity to Cold
10 Acid, electric and sonic resistance
+6 Channel Resistance
SR: 11+ CL (5 in this case)

Dread Vampire only take 5 points of health each round exposed to sunlight, and their fast healing 5 is shut off during the exposure.

Also you gain deeper darkness once a day, save it up.

I am curious how you get Cha to AC? Bones gives a bonus to armor sure but not Cha to AC.

Mysterious Stranger, Interesting concept it would be a good villain build. I kind of like throwing odd things at my players.

You know I honestly don't know I think it can.

True I was just curious what your thoughts would be. Bloodrager is very good, I do want to see a more fighter based Vamp.

Now if I was making a PC Dread Vampire, for example to turn him into one after awhile or later if its a higher level game.