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PIXIE DUST |
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This seems like a tangent, but I'll bite.
I still find it believable when a dragon (or other intelligent foe) doesn't fight at its highest optimized potential.
Because that would mean acknowledging that the worms standing before you are your equals and you have to bring everything you can at them. It means you're afraid of them.
Hit-and-run tactics are for the inferior force that can't just squash its enemies. What will the other dragons say? It's like running for cover and shooting at a rat with your crossbow instead of just kicking it away.
Reds have arrogance above all but Greens, Blues, and Blacks are actually very very smart... blues PREFER to avoid direct confrontation (Utilizing spells and deception over sheer brute might) also remember, Dragons are not STUPID. The dumbest one has an int of 18... also... they have been around a while... they know a guy with a magical stick can amd will hurt. You dont live to be a couplr centuries old by being ignorant
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Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
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Well, if the dragon stays outside, you go into his lair and take his stuff. That kind of forces him to fight there. If he wants to fight outside, you just load up on ranged combat, and trade four attacks of yours for one of his. He'll lose.
You're fighting a dragon. The fact it might not be easily accessible is going to be irrelevant at the time you attack, you'll be able to access it.
And yes, I'd forgotten Fly By is more permissive then Spring Attack!
==Aelryinth
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Bandw2 |
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We've gone to a dragon's lair to slay him, faced his minions and burned a LOT of resources... teleported away...
Just to have him come after us.
It sucked.
He leveled our town and kidnapped my characters parents.
All because we didn't finish the job.
right, you should have stopped halfway sooner in a defensible spot, either they fight you on your terms or you come back tomorrow.
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Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
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Petty Alchemy wrote:Reds have arrogance above all but Greens, Blues, and Blacks are actually very very smart... blues PREFER to avoid direct confrontation (Utilizing spells and deception over sheer brute might) also remember, Dragons are not STUPID. The dumbest one has an int of 18... also... they have been around a while... they know a guy with a magical stick can amd will hurt. You dont live to be a couplr centuries old by being ignorantThis seems like a tangent, but I'll bite.
I still find it believable when a dragon (or other intelligent foe) doesn't fight at its highest optimized potential.
Because that would mean acknowledging that the worms standing before you are your equals and you have to bring everything you can at them. It means you're afraid of them.
Hit-and-run tactics are for the inferior force that can't just squash its enemies. What will the other dragons say? It's like running for cover and shooting at a rat with your crossbow instead of just kicking it away.
Not all dragons are Great Wyrms!
==Aelryinth
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kyrt-ryder |
kyrt-ryder wrote:Aelryinth wrote:Huge flight speed doesn't mean anything if you aren't out of doors with unlimited space to use it in.Why would a dragon fight anywhere else?
Better question, why the hell are we stuffing Dragons into Dungeons >_<
Quote:And you can't breathe with a fly-by attack, and readied actions can still hit you.Re-read Fly-By-Attack. The name implies Spring Attack In the Air, but the feat allows any standard action [could even be a Spell, might not even be an attack spell.]
Quote:Yeah... Dragons in tightly enclosed lairs which can be accessed from ground level is the dumbest thing ever.So, eh. They probably fought him in his lair, and there was no place it could get away from them.
==Aelryinth
Blue dragon mama, hearing her lairs guardian being killed, rushes back to her lair (hundreds of feet up a cliff face-scaled by our sneaky rogue, ropes lowered down).
Said lair was big enough to fly in, and manuever, but small enough to 'trap' her in an arena style fight.
She was defending her eggs. I had my revenge.
Yeah... I definitely would have run that differently were I the GM but hey, it worked out well so that's cool.
Suffice it to say in my game the battle with the dragon would have happened long before you actually reached its lair where its eggs [and possibly treasure hoard] were.
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Malwing |
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As a side note; One thing I noticed is the tendency to go full nozzle when it comes to resources. I'm generally spartan when it comes to using my abilities with limited resources and any time I play a caster of any sort I generally have a ton of spells still by the time the party wants to rest. I know people say that by late levels a full caster has enough spells to last most of the day and I agree but I always see full casters begging to rest around level 10 because they're out of 'good' spells. Casters have several levels of spells, access to staves, wands, and scrolls and somehow all the time they just insist on blowing their top two levels of spells on anything they encounter and suddenly turn useless after a few fights. Seriously, whats up with that?
On the subject at hand; So lets assume that Feats and Skills are a normal thing for any character disregarding how many ranks or bonus feats they get. This makes spells an 'extra' thing. What should martials and adept characters get when they don't get spells? As the game stands without modification it looks like class features, talents/bonus feats, class skill ranks. Class features and talents are the most exclusive although talents are sometimes shared by classes with like-themes. (I'm keeping saves out of the equation considering that those seem to apply based on theme rather than shoring up a lack of power.)
Another related side note is that most of the conversation is directed towards fighters and rogues so I have to ask; what classes actually needs fixing in regards to martial/caster disparity? If the number is relatively low wouldn't added class features fixing them on a class level be more efficient and less disruptive than trying to change core assumptions?
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Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
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Because higher level spells have better Save DC's, better area effects, or better damage.
Lower level spells are for utility and buffing.
It's akin to saying your melee with the enchanted 2h sword can't swing it any more, it's his best weapon and he's tired, so go fight with your magic dagger instead.
Ehhhhhhh.
==Aelryinth
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PIXIE DUST |
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As a side note; One thing I noticed is the tendency to go full nozzle when it comes to resources. I'm generally spartan when it comes to using my abilities with limited resources and any time I play a caster of any sort I generally have a ton of spells still by the time the party wants to rest. I know people say that by late levels a full caster has enough spells to last most of the day and I agree but I always see full casters begging to rest around level 10 because they're out of 'good' spells. Casters have several levels of spells, access to staves, wands, and scrolls and somehow all the time they just insist on blowing their top two levels of spells on anything they encounter and suddenly turn useless after a few fights. Seriously, whats up with that?
On the subject at hand; So lets assume that Feats and Skills are a normal thing for any character disregarding how many ranks or bonus feats they get. This makes spells an 'extra' thing. What should martials and adept characters get when they don't get spells? As the game stands without modification it looks like class features, talents/bonus feats, class skill ranks. Class features and talents are the most exclusive although talents are sometimes shared by classes with like-themes. (I'm keeping saves out of the equation considering that those seem to apply based on theme rather than shoring up a lack of power.)
Another related side note is that most of the conversation is directed towards fighters and rogues so I have to ask; what classes actually needs fixing in regards to martial/caster disparity? If the number is relatively low wouldn't added class features fixing them on a class level be more efficient and less disruptive than trying to change core assumptions?
That is a poorly run caster. Nothing more. A dedicated blaster can deal 15d6(maximized)+45+(15d6*0.5) that dazes as a level 3 spell. That is enough to eliminate most mooks without issue. If a person does not kknow how to utilize their spells, they are playing the class poorly
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Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
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I imagine that as a 1,200+ year old dragon, it's even harder to admit that some monkey man that's probably about 40 years old will require all of your force and cunning to destroy.
I know a lot of intelligent people, but that certainly doesn't translate into smart actions. They'll procrastinate on big projects/exams and/or do the bare minimum required to get the result they want.
Of course, not all are like this. But many are as well.
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knightnday |
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Let the martials do crazy things at higher levels and acknowledge their extraordinary durability.
"realism" is a straightjacket that forces them into being more boring after level 6 or so. And anything fantastic is refuted as "giving magic to martials". It does need to be that way.
We can just have that creatures in these fantastical worlds have a training limit that is far far higher than the one of the real world.
We have Cu Chulainn (from western myth) and Mihawk (from eastern fantasy) that can level mountains with one blow without magical aid in their respective settings, while a Level 20 Fighter has an hard time busting doors or breaking walls or jumping down roofs. And some here make a point at killing those L20 Fighters when they fall from more than 20 feet or so.
Give fighters the ability to ignore damage resistance as well as hardness (on a scale based on level perhaps) and vastly reduce the amount of hit points things have against them, again based on level.
Just a random thought on that, since it keeps coming up. :)
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Malwing |
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When I get the physical books (I ordered multiple copies for this reason) I'm going to try to run a campaign replacing magic with Spheres of Power. So far spheres have 'felt' magical and do fantastic things without being overpowered. In the meantime condensing the primary combat feat trees and adding in third party combat feats have been working wonders for me. I still need to find out how well eliminating INT to skill ranks works out but I think INT-based arcane casters don't need that many skills.
Also Kobold Press' Deep Magic has these runic feats. They're generally trivial to casters but for martials they are amazingly broken handy. It gives them so many things at once; Early access to prestige classes, skill bonuses, qualification for item creation feats, 1 per day spells, capability of crafting and using scrolls.
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alexd1976 wrote:I mean, a wizard can run out of spells. Fighters don't run out of fight.Oh, they run out of fight. It's called HP's and it closely follows the casters running out of spells.
Soooooo much this. The "martials can go all day and casters can't" is utterly untrue. Martials last as long as their hit points, which is rarely more than a round or two or after the casters run out of buffs, controls, and heals.
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Caineach |
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Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.
I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.
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kyrt-ryder |
Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.
Sure they question it. But they keep quiet lest they join the ranks of Bloody Skeletons. Except the ones that do.
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BigDTBone |
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Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.
Welcome to being paid to carry weapons. Your buddies don't give a crap and everyone else is too scared to say anything.
I believe this is colloquially referred to as "the blue wall."
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Orville Redenbacher |
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Caineach wrote:Sure they question it. But they keep quiet lest they join the ranks of Bloody Skeletons. Except the ones that do.Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.
Evil always triumphs over good, because good is dumb!
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Caineach |
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Caineach wrote:Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.Welcome to being paid to carry weapons. Your buddies don't give a crap and everyone else is too scared to say anything.
I believe this is colloquially referred to as "the blue wall."
I've killed other PCs for less evil actions. 2 of them were Paladins.
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kyrt-ryder |
11 people marked this as a favorite. |
BigDTBone wrote:I've killed other PCs for less evil actions. 2 of them were Paladins.Caineach wrote:Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.Welcome to being paid to carry weapons. Your buddies don't give a crap and everyone else is too scared to say anything.
I believe this is colloquially referred to as "the blue wall."
Thank you very much for the headsup not to play with you. I shall remember it.
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Ancient Black Dragon |
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Also, I notice a lot of GMs tend to forget that dragons are VERY capable mages. I remember one dungeon crawl i did with a buddy of mine where i learned the deadliness of dragons. Played up against an ancient black dragon. Between invisibility, mage armor, blur, dispel magic, stupid huge fly speed (se were in a huge chasm where he could take advantage of his speed), his breath weapon, and his stealth skill it got scary. How a gigantic dragon is stealthy is beyond me. Oh, and his AC was stupid high.
Sorry Mrs Dust, but I'm afraid you fell for the Dragon Awareness and Education Council propaganda. I could get my Dragon Union card revoked for telling a squishy, this but... We dragons kind of suck at magic. Don't get me wrong, we have some useful spells, but our caster level is generally CR -5! And you know how many feats and special abilities we have to augment out casting? Zero. I mean it's weird- I'm CR 16 and I have the BAB of a 22 level fighter, but I cast spells at 11th caster level... I'll be fighting level 13-14 dudes, and the best spell I've got has a DC 19 save!
Anyway thanks for the kind words. I totally won't melt your puny village to goo next time I'm there.
(just kidding, I'm totally going to melt your village and kill everyone there!)
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Squirrel_Dude |
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BigDTBone wrote:I've killed other PCs for less evil actions. 2 of them were Paladins.Caineach wrote:Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.Welcome to being paid to carry weapons. Your buddies don't give a crap and everyone else is too scared to say anything.
I believe this is colloquially referred to as "the blue wall."
Considering the somewhat ambiguous nature of necromancy's morality in regards to summoning undead creations (it's hard to pin down a reason as to why it's evil), what exactly were the less evil actions the other PC's did? Kick a puppy? Accidentally convict an innocent man?
Pretty messed up, but hardly worthy of death.
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Bandw2 |
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Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.
lord don't make this an alignment discussion
because there's nothing inherently evil about using undead minions, except maybe in that you desecrate a corpse.
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Chengar Qordath |
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Chengar Qordath wrote:Technically, it already did. It's called ToB/Psionics.Petty Alchemy wrote:Yeah, if there was a quick and simple fix to the martial/caster disparity, it already would've come up at some point during 3.0/3.5/PF's lifecycle.Charon's Little Helper wrote:Am I the only one who noticed how quickly this thread devolved from trying to actually come up with reasonable solutions to another - "martials are weak - rebuild the system from the ground up!" thread?
Lol
(Of note - I actually agree that at higher levels [9ish + - though depends upon the martial] martials are weaker - but few are saying anything like a solution sans the rebuilding of the entire class system.)
We have this thread like once a month because there is no quickfix, especially when people can't even agree about the problem.
You can never leave Hotel California.
Much as I love ToB and Psionics (and much prefer them to the core classes' design), I think completely redoing the magic system and all the classes doesn't exactly qualify as a "quick and simple" fix.
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Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
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Caineach wrote:Anzyr wrote:I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Cavall wrote:Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.lord don't make this an alignment discussion
because there's nothing inherently evil about using undead minions, except maybe in that you desecrate a corpse.
Sorry, in PF animating undead involves recalling a spark of their soul, enslaving it, and then infusing it with negative energy in a torturous manner while binding it to servitude.
Yes, quite evil in PF.
==Aelryinth
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Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
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Honestly, I'd like a hard definition of "nice things" in the context of this topic.
Are bigger numbers a "nice thing"? Is extreme combat competency (such as pre-errata Crane Wing) a "nice thing"? Is built-in narrative power/control a "nice thing"?
The first two are things people probably enjoy when playing martials, but not everyone will agree whether they are as nice as the third.
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kyrt-ryder |
Sorry, in PF animating undead involves recalling a spark of their soul, enslaving it, and then infusing it with negative energy in a torturous manner while binding it to servitude.
Big deal. Slavery has been part of humanity pretty much since we've existed.
To this date humans still participate in slavery [both the traditional style, and economic slavery.]
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DM_Blake |
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So from various posters I have a few interesting ideas, needles, as it were, plucked from the rest of the chaff in this haystack.
(Side note: How do you *quickly* find a (non-magnetic) needle in a haystack? Burn the hay.)
But I can't burn the unhelpful posts in this thread, so I'm paraphrasing from some of the good ones:
(sorry that I didn't preserve the identities of the posters of these ideas - anyone can scroll up/page up if you want to know)
- When making characters, no starting ability scores above 16, or below 10 after racial adjustment. Maybe adjust the point-buy values to be even more geometric.
- Remove hold person and dominate person from the game.
- Higher-level spells take longer to cast (could even be a progressive extension starting at mid-level).
- Shorten the duration of some of the longest-lasting spells.
- Remove quicken spell from the game, or make it apply only to spells with a range of personal.
- Remove or rewrite badly OP mechanics like dazing spell meta-magic, witches slumber hex, and other obviously broken stuff.
- Discuss with players that RPG-Tag is not a fun way to play. This applies on both sides of the screen. I don't want to consistently take a player out of action with save-or-suck and for similar reasons, I don't want players using those tactics on my named NPC/monsters.
- Consider crafted items the same as purchased when determining Wealth By Level. I would also make master craftsman into a more useful feat
- Collapse feat trees. Especially the feat/improved/greater ones. If you take the first feat in the chain, it automatically upgrades when you reach the prerequisites for the next one.
- More skills for the 2+Int classes.
- Move and full attack. Maybe too much; possibly just taking a move action loses the last iterative attack.
- More feats (combined with the collapsed feat trees could mean martials have gazillions of options)
- Class-based feat lists - restrict certain feats to certain classes in the same way that certain spells are restricted to certain casting classes.
Some of those seem quick and easy to implement, others require much more effort. Some seem like they might have a big impact, others not so much. What do you guys think of that list so far?
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DM_Blake |
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Honestly, I'd like a hard definition of "nice things" in the context of this topic.
Are bigger numbers a "nice thing"? Is extreme combat competency (such as pre-errata Crane Wing) a "nice thing"? Is built-in narrative power/control a "nice thing"?
The first two are things people probably enjoy when playing martials, but not everyone will agree whether they are as nice as the third.
I prefer the term to be undefined - let each (contributing) poster make suggestions based on his or her own personal opinion as to what that means.
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DM_Blake |
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I also created this thread to discuss a more extreme measure: blanket removal of all high-level spells.
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Cerberus Seven |
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Aelryinth wrote:Sorry, in PF animating undead involves recalling a spark of their soul, enslaving it, and then infusing it with negative energy in a torturous manner while binding it to servitude.Big deal. Slavery has been part of humanity pretty much since we've existed.
To this date humans still participate in slavery [both the traditional style, and economic slavery.]
Wait, are you arguing that slavery isn't morally wrong?
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Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
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Aelryinth wrote:Sorry, in PF animating undead involves recalling a spark of their soul, enslaving it, and then infusing it with negative energy in a torturous manner while binding it to servitude.Big deal. Slavery has been part of humanity pretty much since we've existed.
To this date humans still participate in slavery [both the traditional style, and economic slavery.]
Slavery for the existence of slavery is evil.
Murder's been around forever, too, as has theft and all sorts of crap. I suppose they should just suddenly be 'not evil' because I want to be able to use them without consequence?
Doesn't work that way.
Slavery for the sake of slavery is an evil in Pathfinder, also. Slavery as the alternative for murder or sentence to pay off a debt is a different option and more neutral.
So, yes, enslaving someone's soul just because you can do it, and binding it into a torturous existence so you can have a minion you can mistreat to your heart's content and dispose of at a whim is DEFINITELY evil.
Evil can be inconvenient that way, you know?
==Aelryinth
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Snowblind |
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...
Consider crafted items the same as purchased when determining Wealth By Level.
...
Minor thing.
This is a terrible idea.
The reason why is that when a wizard crafts themselves a new cloak you cut back incoming wealth for the whole party. This effectively means that when the wizard spends 500gp making a 1000gp cloak, you as the GM take out 125gp from the treasure that the wizard would receive, and 375 gp for the other 3 players. The wizard is still ahead, since 625<1000, but the fighter and rogue are down 125gp through no fault of their own. You literally hand some players a tool to give themselves an unequal share of the treasure. Even worse, in character the other characters lose nothing, since in universe what someone does in their spare time has no impact on the amount of pocket change the orcs down the road have. Unless you as the GM plan to order players and their PCs to distribute loot a fair way instead of splitting it how they want to, which can vary from group to group but almost always consists of "everyone gets a fair share", which goes against what you want to accomplish.
It seems that a lot of people tend to assume that WBL has some mechanical significance. It doesn't. It is a GM tool and an assumption of the CR system. Players don't have to know about it, don't have to care about it, and most certainly don't have to try to abide by it. That's the GM's problem, if they even want to follow it themselves (not following it creates issues with the system math, but nonetheless it is still just a guideline).
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kyrt-ryder |
kyrt-ryder wrote:Wait, are you arguing that slavery isn't morally wrong?Aelryinth wrote:Sorry, in PF animating undead involves recalling a spark of their soul, enslaving it, and then infusing it with negative energy in a torturous manner while binding it to servitude.Big deal. Slavery has been part of humanity pretty much since we've existed.
To this date humans still participate in slavery [both the traditional style, and economic slavery.]
Nope, just saying it's a fact of life and not something I really give a s%*& about.
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Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
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Petty Alchemy wrote:I prefer the term to be undefined - let each (contributing) poster make suggestions based on his or her own personal opinion as to what that means.Honestly, I'd like a hard definition of "nice things" in the context of this topic.
Are bigger numbers a "nice thing"? Is extreme combat competency (such as pre-errata Crane Wing) a "nice thing"? Is built-in narrative power/control a "nice thing"?
The first two are things people probably enjoy when playing martials, but not everyone will agree whether they are as nice as the third.
Therein lies the derailment, I suspect. How can we fix the problem when the problem is undefined? Everyone is fixing the problem as they perceive it, and disagreeing on the problem as others perceive it.
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kyrt-ryder |
kyrt-ryder wrote:Aelryinth wrote:Sorry, in PF animating undead involves recalling a spark of their soul, enslaving it, and then infusing it with negative energy in a torturous manner while binding it to servitude.Big deal. Slavery has been part of humanity pretty much since we've existed.
To this date humans still participate in slavery [both the traditional style, and economic slavery.]
Slavery for the existence of slavery is evil.
Murder's been around forever, too, as has theft and all sorts of crap. I suppose they should just suddenly be 'not evil' because I want to be able to use them without consequence?
Doesn't work that way.
Slavery for the sake of slavery is an evil in Pathfinder, also. Slavery as the alternative for murder or sentence to pay off a debt is a different option and more neutral.
So, yes, enslaving someone's soul just because you can do it, and binding it into a torturous existence so you can have a minion you can mistreat to your heart's content and dispose of at a whim is DEFINITELY evil.
Evil can be inconvenient that way, you know?
==Aelryinth
I dispose of living minions at a whim too. There's always another idiot available.
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Kirth Gersen |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
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It seems that a lot of people tend to assume that WBL has some mechanical significance. It doesn't. It is a GM tool and an assumption of the CR system. Players don't have to know about it, don't have to care about it, and most certainly don't have to try to abide by it. That's the GM's problem, if they even want to follow it themselves (not following it creates issues with the system math, but nonetheless it is still just a guideline).
I've gone the exact opposite direction.
In my games, WBL is a personal metaphysical limit, not a monetary one.It's a measure of how much magical bling you can actually get to function for you, without the stuff shutting off, breaking, or misfiring when used.
You can spend a million gp on hookers and blow and it doesn't affect your personal prowess, because cash and magic are decoupled from each other.
When people are below their personal WBL ("mojo") limit, I encourage them to "discover" new properties in their existing items. Alternatively, they can pick up mundane stuff from the adventure and declare it magical gear. "This red dragon fang is a +1 flaming short sword!" is totally legit, if you have the mojo to spend on it. That gets rid of magic item shops.
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HWalsh |
It seems that a lot of people tend to assume that WBL has some mechanical significance. It doesn't. It is a GM tool and an assumption of the CR system. Players don't have to know about it, don't have to care about it, and most certainly don't have to try to abide by it. That's the GM's problem, if they even want to follow it themselves (not following it creates issues with the system math, but nonetheless it is still just a guideline).
Yeah the WBL is really stupid once play starts. It is okay before play, but after play?
HAH!
No.
You, as the GM, can't enforce it logically.
GM: "Okay, you open the chest and find 1,350 gold pieces inside of it. Each of you takes 300 but the Wizard, who only takes 150."
Wizard: "Why would I only take 150?"
GM: "Because you have too many magical items."
Wizard: "Uh? What? Okay... I guess... I was going to make a pair of bracers +2 but I guess I have to wait..."
Monk: "Oh hey, no problem. Tell you what, since I don't have an overhead here, being that I punch people in the soul and what not... Why don't I give you 150 of mine so you can craft your braces, and I'll pay the costs if you upgrade my ring from a +1 to a +2."
GM: "He can't do that."
Monk: "What now?"
GM: "Yeah, see, he's not allowed to craft for you at cost, and you can't give him the money because he's already spent too much on magical items."
Fighter: "Huh? So... We can't spend our money how we want to?"
GM: "See, you are only allowed to spend a certain percentage of your GP on things."
Monk: "What, is there like, a magical item registry or something that consults with every seller of raw materials in the world that somehow knows that we have too many magical items and is telling them that they can't sell to us because they don't like it?"
GM: "Well it's complicated."
Players: "No. It's stupid."
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Bandw2 |
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Snowblind wrote:It seems that a lot of people tend to assume that WBL has some mechanical significance. It doesn't. It is a GM tool and an assumption of the CR system. Players don't have to know about it, don't have to care about it, and most certainly don't have to try to abide by it. That's the GM's problem, if they even want to follow it themselves (not following it creates issues with the system math, but nonetheless it is still just a guideline).I've gone the exact opposite direction.
In my games, WBL is a personal metaphysical limit, not a monetary one.
It's a measure of how much magical bling you can actually get to function for you, without the stuff shutting off, breaking, or misfiring when used.You can spend a million gp on hookers and blow and it doesn't affect your personal prowess, because cash and magic are decoupled from each other.
When people are below their personal WBL ("mojo") limit, I encourage them to "discover" new properties in their existing items. Alternatively, they can pick up mundane stuff from the adventure and declare it magical gear. "This red dragon fang is a +1 flaming short sword!" is totally legit, if you have the mojo to spend on it. That gets rid of magic item shops.
i'm keeping this
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DM_Blake |
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Kirth Gersen wrote:i'm keeping thisSnowblind wrote:It seems that a lot of people tend to assume that WBL has some mechanical significance. It doesn't. It is a GM tool and an assumption of the CR system. Players don't have to know about it, don't have to care about it, and most certainly don't have to try to abide by it. That's the GM's problem, if they even want to follow it themselves (not following it creates issues with the system math, but nonetheless it is still just a guideline).I've gone the exact opposite direction.
In my games, WBL is a personal metaphysical limit, not a monetary one.
It's a measure of how much magical bling you can actually get to function for you, without the stuff shutting off, breaking, or misfiring when used.You can spend a million gp on hookers and blow and it doesn't affect your personal prowess, because cash and magic are decoupled from each other.
When people are below their personal WBL ("mojo") limit, I encourage them to "discover" new properties in their existing items. Alternatively, they can pick up mundane stuff from the adventure and declare it magical gear. "This red dragon fang is a +1 flaming short sword!" is totally legit, if you have the mojo to spend on it. That gets rid of magic item shops.
It appears to have been public domain.
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oldsaxhleel |
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Malwing wrote:That is a poorly run caster. Nothing more. A dedicated blaster can deal 15d6(maximized)+45+(15d6*0.5) that dazes as a level 3 spell. That is enough to eliminate most mooks without issue. If a person does not kknow how to utilize their spells, they are playing...As a side note; One thing I noticed is the tendency to go full nozzle when it comes to resources. I'm generally spartan when it comes to using my abilities with limited resources and any time I play a caster of any sort I generally have a ton of spells still by the time the party wants to rest. I know people say that by late levels a full caster has enough spells to last most of the day and I agree but I always see full casters begging to rest around level 10 because they're out of 'good' spells. Casters have several levels of spells, access to staves, wands, and scrolls and somehow all the time they just insist on blowing their top two levels of spells on anything they encounter and suddenly turn useless after a few fights. Seriously, whats up with that?
On the subject at hand; So lets assume that Feats and Skills are a normal thing for any character disregarding how many ranks or bonus feats they get. This makes spells an 'extra' thing. What should martials and adept characters get when they don't get spells? As the game stands without modification it looks like class features, talents/bonus feats, class skill ranks. Class features and talents are the most exclusive although talents are sometimes shared by classes with like-themes. (I'm keeping saves out of the equation considering that those seem to apply based on theme rather than shoring up a lack of power.)
Another related side note is that most of the conversation is directed towards fighters and rogues so I have to ask; what classes actually needs fixing in regards to martial/caster disparity? If the number is relatively low wouldn't added class features fixing them on a class level be more efficient and less disruptive than trying to change core assumptions?
Ok, I'll bite.
I'm assuming an intensified, maximized, and empowered fireball cast by a Orc/Draconic crossblooded halforc with the APG favored class bonus for +1/2 pt fire damage?and you're getting that out of a 3rd level slot how? to my knowledge, there is no incantatrix twin in PF, and no way to gouge out free metamagic beyond magical lineage, wayang, and spell perfection, and that only gets you maximized and intensified for free, max, making that a 5th level spell slot at least.
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Chengar Qordath |
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Ok, I'll bite.
I'm assuming an intensified, maximized, and empowered fireball cast by a Orc/Draconic crossblooded halforc with the APG favored class bonus for +1/2 pt fire damage?
and you're getting that out of a 3rd level slot how? to my knowledge, there is no incantatrix twin in PF, and no way to gouge out free metamagic beyond magical lineage, wayang, and spell perfection, and that only gets you maximized and intensified for free, max, making that a 5th level spell slot at least.
Metamagic Rod, I'd assume.