Hey y'all.
I'm looking to build a Dragon Disciple to take part in a Giantslayer campaign. I've been doing my research and reading the various guides scattered around.
I'm planning to play a Nagaji, that's not going to be optional (and has repercussions I know...). The build is going to be Slayer/Sorceror - either 3/2 or 2/3 depending on the rest of the party. Although I am going to play lawful good so paladin is not out of the question...
Fluffwise he will be the adopted son of Agrit and Sara since they seem like the kind to take pity on another outsider. He's the spawn of a now dead gold dragon, rather than an actual lizardfolk and it will be this that inclines him to LG. He's going to be a blacksmith - using a hammer in combat until spells/claws get going - which is why i'm dubious about paladin. If anyone has good ideas on that then please share!
Since I will be interested in a tasty amount of combat I keep looking at the Abyssal Strength of the Abyss and, like everyone else, wanting to get it into my build.
The issue is how... Crossblooded worries me somewhat due to the spells lost, I'm not going full caster from scratch so losing the spells would be unpleasant. On the other hand going the Eldritch Heritage route is going to eat up three feats and delay further strength increases until very late...
So really I just came to vent and ask for help! What do you sages of the internet think?
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I'm not sure how much you'd be getting out of Slayer. I like Slayer, but it doesn't seem to mesh very well, especially if you only take 2 levels so that you'd need to burn a move action for Studied Target.
Two levels of Pali would get you a lot more - especially getting Cha to all of your saves. (Why can't a pali use a hammer?) I'd probably stick with the hammer for quite some time - the bloodline claws only really come into their own if you have a bite attack already. (orc/tiefling etc who can get them racially)
Going the warrior route - that's what I'd probably recommend - 2 pali/3 sorc - into DD.
As to going cross-blooded - you may consider Orc instead of Abyssal (especially if you're LG). Orc gets the Str bonus as well, and the rest of the bloodline will be more useful. The main reason to go Abyssal with a DD is if you're a tiefling.
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yeah, 2 levels of pali then 3 sorcerer, and then DD. really good saves.
The reason for Slayer (or Ranger) is getting Aspect of the Beast at 2nd lvl for permanent claws.
CLH: Nice point about the Orc bloodline, I don't get out of the core books very often so I hadn't considered it.
Saldiven: With the slayer build the extra claw rounds are unnecessary since the point of the build is to get permanent claws ASAP.
My stats (rolled) are 20, 13, 15, 11, 12, 18 with racial modifiers from Nagaji... pally looks better and better.
The paldin question for me is what kind of armour to pack - the ubiquitous mithril breastplate perhaps...
Just to mention - from a straight-out offensive power perspective, at least one level of Barbarian or Bloodrager and a two-hander is the true disciple murder-machine by the time you're getting into those dragon strength buffs. Using a two-hander with the +4STR of disciple plus the +6STR of rage with a Furious, Courageous weapon with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it produces grotesque damage. Enlarge Person or Monstrous Physique just make it that much worse.
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The permanent claws are probably not needed. Nat weapons aren't really a good idea to focus on unless you have 3+, (remember too - enchanting is double - and it uses up your neck slot) and if you have a bite attack or some such, the sorcerer claws will be enough rounds the vast majority of the time. (only used when full-attacking) And in rounds where the bite is the only attack - you'd get 1.5x str on it.
As to what armor - that depends. Are you willing to burn a couple feats on arcane armor training? If so - a mithril breastplate is the way to go. (heaviest armor you can totally negate the arcane failure % on) But that's only eventually - you can't take Arcane Armor Mastery until you have a caster level 7.
The main reason I would go dragon disciple is for the natural weapon fighting style. It is a viable form of attack at all points, not just when you have 3 attacks. You start with 2 attacks vs a 2 hander's 1. Your 2 attacks add str to damage twice, while the 1 hander gets 1.5. At 6 the 2 hand weapons get 2 attacks catching up then at 7 you get bite so you now have 3 hits per round.
Your standard 2-hander doesn't break ahead until level 16 when they get their 4th attack. At this point you have been turning into a dragon for 4 levels.
Are permanent claws needed?
You have 7 rounds of claws to start with which is quite a bit. Claws should really only be utilized when you can get full attacks in. Other times you will likely fall back on spells (kind of switch-hitting).
I don't think I would hold up my sorcerer spell casting and bloodline abilities by 2 levels just for permanent claws.
Nor would I go paladin.
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The main reason I would go dragon disciple is for the natural weapon fighting style. It is a viable form of attack at all points, not just when you have 3 attacks. You start with 2 attacks vs a 2 hander's 1. Your 2 attacks add str to damage twice, while the 1 hander gets 1.5. At 6 the 2 hand weapons get 2 attacks catching up then at 7 you get bite so you now have 3 hits per round.
Meh - at low levels (pre-6) the extra .5str is only a couple points, and those claws together are 2d4 vs a greatsword's 2d6 (2 points behind - same as the Str dmg difference with an 18 or 20) & a better crit. Not to mention rounds in which you don't get a full attack.
And - as I mentioned before - rather importantly at higher levels, the AoMF uses up a neck slot (no AoNA for you!) & costs double for enchantments, meaning that your enhancement bonus will consistently be 1-2 points behind.
With a racial bite attack - I like the combo. It's awesome for tieflings/half-orcs who grab a bite. Without it? Meh. And you may easily run out of rounds - while with a bite you only use up a round of claws when full attacking.
I don't think I would hold up my sorcerer spell casting and bloodline abilities by 2 levels just for permanent claws.
Nor would I go paladin.
*Shrug* - I see sorc 5/ DD & pali 2/sorc 3/DD as being equally viable, depending how much of a spellcaster you want to be vs warrior. The extra HP, armor/weapon proficiencies, BAB, and especially Cha to saves from the pali levels are quite nice. The smite/ability to use divine wands etc are just gravy.
I suggest casting spells when full attacking isn't an option. I don't see the point of being a dragon disciple if you want to use a 2-handed weapon. Dragons fight with claws, fangs, and magic.
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I suggest casting spells when full attacking isn't an option. I don't see the point of being a dragon disciple if you want to use a 2-handed weapon. Dragons fight with claws, fangs, and magic.
General Malesinder disagrees.
I don't see the point of being a dragon disciple if you want to use a 2-handed weapon.
Other than outrageous strength bonuses and a very substantial amount of support magic? A Barbarian 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Dragon Disciple 4 using the right equipment and spells can be doing near 40 damage with high accuracy with a single weapon strike while running things like Haste and Mirror Image.
He could go 9 bloodrager and do the same thing (haste at 10th). Compare at 10th level
Straight bloodrager:
10 Bab- 3rd level casting
Sorc4/Barb1/DD5
7 BaB- 3rd level casting
Putting classes into sorcerer drops your iterative attacks below the other 2 hand users by 1 for every 2 levels. DD drops it another 1 per 4 levels. Using a 2-hander as a DD with 3 levels Sorcerer means you don't get your second swing until 9th level. Using claws/bite makes up for this giving you your 2nd swing at level 1, your third swing at 7th, and your 4th and 5th swing at 12th.
Also you never have to worry about when your BaB is going to give you these attacks and the claws and bite are at full attack (wing/tail @ -5).
Natural attacks are always a viable option compared to 2-hand. Also the opening poster wants to use natural weapons, at least this is what I assumed with him wanting slayer for claws.
All I was trying to say is that he doesn't need to sacrifice 2 additional levels of spell-casting, a key point of this class, to get claws. Before level 2 7 rounds is plenty as you have spells to fall back on or can carry a backup weapon. Once you have level 2 spells, if you need more natural attacks per day use alter self to get them.
He could go 9 bloodrager and do the same thing (haste at 10th). Compare at 10th level
At 10th level, the Bloodrager has 2/1/1 base spell slots, and he *just* got third level spells. The Bloodrager|Barbarian 1/ Sorcerer4/ Dragon Disciple 4/ ?X has 6/6/4, and he had third level spells already at 8. While they may be superficially similar, the practical differences are huge with that kind of gap in spellcasting. The iterative attacks are a notable issue for three levels, though the B/S/DD gets the all-important Haste, Heroism and Greater Magic Weapon sooner (and lots of castings).
Anyhow all of these approaches are totally valid. I just wanted to comment on the effectiveness of weapon-using DD's, since I've seen people who think that claws are the only effective way to go.
Besides Rylar - I think you're overstating the value of iteratives. After the first one, they're so inaccurate as to have relatively little benefit against most foes.
If that's the case it just pushes natural weapons further ahead.
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Besides Rylar - I think you're overstating the value of iteratives. After the first one, they're so inaccurate as to have relatively little benefit against most foes.If that's the case it just pushes natural weapons further ahead.
I was actually referring to Bloodrager vs DD - but yes, it is the main advantage of nat weapons. I still stand by the idea that nat weapons are a rather poor combat style without at least 3 attacks due to all of the aforementioned disadvantages.
If using claws is the concept, Draconic Bloodrager does get built-in claws while raging.
Extra Rage really does make it easy for a character with a couple of feats to spare to make the most of rage with a minimal dip. Where a typical level 9 Barbarian has 24 rounds of rage a day, a disciple with one level of Barbarian and two Extra Rage has 20 - and unlike the Barbarian, the disciple can be more selective about using it.
Add to that the ridiculously powerful alchemy of crossing a Furious, Courageous weapon with the ability to self-cast Greater Magic Weapon and Heroism (the weapon becomes +4 enhancement, the rage bonus becomes +6 STR/CON, Heroism becomes +4 ab/saves), and the disciple is arguably getting more out of rage than the Barbarian can.
I still stand by the idea that nat weapons are a rather poor combat style without at least 3 attacks due to all of the aforementioned disadvantages.
Dragon Disciple gets 3 natural attacks. Even without the third attack, I say it's highly viable in the early levels.
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If using claws is the concept, Draconic Bloodrager does get built-in claws while raging.
Extra Rage really does make it easy for a character with a couple of feats to spare to make the most of rage with a minimal dip. Where a typical level 9 Barbarian has 24 rounds of rage a day, a disciple with one level of Barbarian and two Extra Rage has 20 - and unlike the Barbarian, the disciple can be more selective about using it.
Add to that the ridiculously powerful alchemy of crossing a Furious, Courageous weapon with the ability to self-cast Greater Magic Weapon and Heroism (the weapon becomes +4 enhancement, the rage bonus becomes +6 STR/CON, Heroism becomes +4 ab/saves), and the disciple is arguably getting more out of rage than the Barbarian can.
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I still stand by the idea that nat weapons are a rather poor combat style without at least 3 attacks due to all of the aforementioned disadvantages.Dragon Disciple gets 3 natural attacks. Even without the third attack, I say it's highly viable in the early levels.
True - if you want to wait until level 7 to come into your fighting style - also, when you're using up a round of the bloodline even when moving, you're liable to run out of rounds and then be useless in combat.
And I already proved through math that just two claws is inferior to a greatsword even at early levels in virtually every way.
You really just have to set some priorities. Any of them are viable, none are really optimal, and you can't do everything (unless maybe you are going mythic/gestalt).
Some points to consider:
How will your GM rule draconic bloodrager and dragon disciple? I would let it stack advantageously, but some won't.
How much of a caster do you want to be? What do you want the casting to do for you? If just a buff spell before you enter combat, then don't worry if a build choice reduces casting options. Paladin 4/crossblooded sorc 1/DD+. Paladin makes your saves crazy good and a few swift action heals can save your bacon.
If you are trying to be a primary caster (uses magic to solve problems), then you better not take anything that takes away from casting. Either 0 or only 1 level in a martial class/single bloodline sorc/DD+ (I've seen a few go DD just so they are not a squishy.)
The switch hitter that switches seamlessly between martial and caster is by far the most difficult to manage. I think it can be the most fun, but I will admit to being only middlin decent at it. But I still had a blast trying.
Natural weapon style is viable. The two separate attack tends to make up for the slightly lower peak damage. It is not as 'swingy' on performance. It is significantly less likely to miss with both and accomplish nothing in a round. Also less likely to have 'excess' peak damage wasted in those average damage calculations.
I wanted permanent claws, but decided they weren't necessary. I carry a reach polearm (personal preference to the horsechopper just cause you almost never see it on anyone else). Then I have the slightly higher peak damage when charging or otherwise only able to make one attack. Plus a few more attacks for the reach AoO. Then when ready to full attack, drop the polearm and go at it with claw (and fang when you get them).
Level 1: 0 Bab, 18 Str
2h- +4 (2d6+6) Ave=13
Claw/Claw +4/+4 (1d4+4) ave=13
Level 3: 1 Bab, 22 str buffed, power attack
2h +7 (2d6+12) Ave=19
Claw/Claw +7/+7(1d4+8) Ave=21
Level 5: 2 Bab, 25 str, power attack
2h- +9 (2d6+13) Ave=20
Claw/Claw +9/+9 (1d4+9) Ave=23
I still don't see where claws are inferior at any level. At level 4 you can cast alter self to get claws and a bite attack if you think it's necessary. 2 Hander has the advantage of not needing a full round attack (thus it is more mobile), but if he isn't in position the claw user can use chill touch to add 1d6 damage and to his next few attacks. The 2 hander also has better attack of opportunity.
There are some trade offs for each style, but one is not inferior in every way to the other. If someone wants to use natural weapons it's a perfectly viable option.
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Natural Weapons are an equal option at low levels that becomes more and more sub-optimal as you level up. Natural weapons are more negatively impacted by DR than a two-hander and have less ways to overcome it. Natural weapons are forced to pay double for a magic weapon that caps out at +5 instead of +10, and takes up the very valuable neck slot.
Natural weapons do not gain iteratives, so you are forced to add more attacks via a very expensive helm or polymorph spells to increase your attacks per round.
Also, nothing is stopping the two-hander from using the bite attack Granted by DD as well.
You are also assuming a greatsword, when you would have much more DPR by using a lucurne hammer or other reach weapon and get more attacks from AoOs.
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Level 1: 0 Bab, 18 Str
2h- +4 (2d6+6) Ave=13
Claw/Claw +4/+4 (1d4+4) ave=13Level 3: 1 Bab, 22 str buffed, power attack
2h +7 (2d6+12) Ave=19
Claw/Claw +7/+7(1d4+8) Ave=21Level 5: 2 Bab, 25 str, power attack
2h- +9 (2d6+13) Ave=20
Claw/Claw +9/+9 (1d4+9) Ave=23I still don't see where claws are inferior at any level.
That's because you're ignoring all of the disadvantages of claws.
1. You're ignoring the superior crit that a greatsword has - at first level their real average damage would be 14.3 & 13.65 respectively. And past the first few levels a two-hander gains even more with a nodachi.
2. You're ignoring that many rounds, especially for the first few levels, you don't get a full attack because you moved.
3. You're ignoring how much more expensive enchanting them is, and that an Amulet of Mighty Fists is using up your neck slot, and therefore hurting your AC.
The only time that the claws would likely have the edge even at low levels is with SA. A tengu rogue/ninja are probably the easiest ways to make a nat weapon build work for just that reason. (Plus - they get a bite in addition to their two claws.)
Of note - if you added a bite to your calculations - even doing the #s properly the extra 50% damage the nat weapon combo got would arguably be worth the aforementioned disadvantages.
That's because you're ignoring all of the disadvantages of claws.
1. You're ignoring the superior crit that a greatsword has - at first level their real average damage would be 14.3 & 13.65 respectively. And past the first few levels a two-hander gains even more with a nodachi.
Fair enough, crits were not taken into account. I'm also ignoring the either a feat or another class is needed to use these weapons.
2. You're ignoring that many rounds, especially for the first few levels, you don't get a full attack because you moved.
2 Hander has the advantage of not needing a full round attack (thus it is more mobile), but if he isn't in position the claw user can use chill touch to add 1d6 damage and to his next few attacks.
Nope, I'm not.
3. You're ignoring how much more expensive enchanting them is, and that an Amulet of Mighty Fists is using up your neck slot, and therefore hurting your AC.
Yes, this is very table/campaign specific. I compared the damage based on no gear. A +2 weapon adds 2 damage per round for 8k. A +1 Amulet of mighty fists adds 2 damage per round for 5k. Let's add 50% cost to move it onto an eye-patch so we can wear natural armor neck still and it costs 7.5k.
Level 2 mighty fist eyepatch costs 30k, +4 weapon costs 32.
Level 5 mighty fist costs 187,500 vs a +10 weapon costing 200,000
Natural weapons are more negatively impacted by DR than a two-hander and have less ways to overcome it.
I can see that coming into play, but it depends on the DR. We auto overcome DR/magic and neither of us are overcoming DR/-. 2hand dealing more damage per hit does make DR less effective.
But isn't this countered by being better against higher AC (where natural weapons get more swings at hitting)? Like I stated above there are trade offs, and this is one of them.
Natural weapons do not gain iteratives, so you are forced to add more attacks via a very expensive helm or polymorph spells to increase your attacks per round.
I was told I was overrating this iteratives as they often miss. A sorcerer/DD gets their third iterative attack at 19. At this point form of the dragon is online. For the 2nd attack, we would get that at level 9 that's 2 levels after the natural weapon user is going claw/claw/bite without an expensive helm or casting any spells.
Also, nothing is stopping the two-hander from using the bite attack Granted by DD as well.
Sure, but the attack will be at -5 attack and only add 1/2 str sense it would now be considered a secondary attack.
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3. You're ignoring how much more expensive enchanting them is, and that an Amulet of Mighty Fists is using up your neck slot, and therefore hurting your AC.Yes, this is very table/campaign specific. I compared the damage based on no gear. A +2 weapon adds 2 damage per round for 8k. A +1 Amulet of mighty fists adds 2 damage per round for 5k. Let's add 50% cost to move it onto an eye-patch so we can wear natural armor neck still and it costs 7.5k.
Level 2 mighty fist eyepatch costs 30k, +4 weapon costs 32.
Level 5 mighty fist costs 187,500 vs a +10 weapon costing 200,000
This is not an even assumption, as the damage bonus on a magic weapon is irrelevant. You are not accounting for the accuracy difference. The accuracy is more important than the damage, as it allows you to offset power attack.
Moving item slots is an optional rule that requires GM approval, and even still, while you have a +5 eyepatch of mighty fists, the two hander has a a +5 spell storing, fortuitous, keen, holy weapon.
Natural weapons are more negatively impacted by DR than a two-hander and have less ways to overcome it.I can see that coming into play, but it depends on the DR. We auto overcome DR/magic and neither of us are overcoming DR/-. 2hand dealing more damage per hit does make DR less effective.
But isn't this countered by being better against higher AC (where natural weapons get more swings at hitting)? Like I stated above there are trade offs, and this is one of them.
Except you aren't hitting against a higher AC. As a Barbarian based DD, your attack bonus is more than high enough to hit with your iterative. You could have a STR 30 without trying, which will overcome the -5 to hit on iterative or your secondary bite.
This is not an even assumption, as the damage bonus on a magic weapon is irrelevant. You are not accounting for the accuracy difference. The accuracy is more important than the damage, as it allows you to offset power attack.
Accuracy is relative. If I have a 75% chance of hitting on each of my two swings, I don't think 80% chance of hitting your one swing outweighs it.
Except you aren't hitting against a higher AC. As a Barbarian based DD, your attack bonus is more than high enough to hit with your iterative. You could have a STR 30 without trying, which will overcome the -5 to hit on iterative or your secondary bite.
Wait a barbarian is going to have a higher to hit than a sorcerer? I guess if you want that completely different trade off, go for it. At that point why not just be a barbarian?
even still, while you have a +5 eyepatch of mighty fists, the two hander has a a +5 spell storing, fortuitous, keen, holy weapon.
I thought you said the bonus to hit the most important part?
I know the OP has said that Nagaji was not negotiable, but I wonder if he's considered the Lizard Folk from the "other races" section of the race builder rules in the Advanced Race Guide.
Lizard folk don't get a bonus to Cha, but do get a bonus to Str and Con, with no penalty. It'd still be relatively easy to get the Cha you want. Also, Lizard Folk start with claws and a bite. This would make natural weapon fighting easier, and with the high Str a Dragon Disciple should end up having, the low dmg dice for the individual attacks shouldn't be as much of an issue. Also, it keeps the same feel as Nagaji being a saurian race.
Thanks Saldiven - I hadn't considered that actually. Well worth looking at though. I'll poke it at my GM sometime and see what they say.
I think I am, thanks to all you sages out there, going to go Paladin/Sorceror/DD
@ElterEgo: I'd like a switch hitter :) The way the build is stacking up I suspect it will mostly be smacking giants in the face so hard they fall over but the option for spells is always useful. Besides I like being able to do a bit of both.
Weaponry... since the character is, fluffwise, a blacksmith I think it will involve a hammer. 2 handed hammers are a matter of GM fiat I think, since they don't appear in UE(?) but i can't imagine there would be much issue there.
The question becomes 2 handed or 1 handed + buckler. Given that heavy armour is right out is the extra defense worth it without the damage? I know there is going to be a TWF fighter and a bard in the party, not sure about the other 2 players though.
If the concept is to rip foes to shreds with your "claws", two levels of Barbarian and the Extra Rage Power feat can get you Greater Brawling, granting free basic TWF with unarmed strikes. Add in Improved Unarmed Strike and Dragon Style, throw on a Brawling Haramaki, and always throw your offhand "dragon punch" first. You've now got a 1.5xSTR offhand followed by normal iteratives, and all attacks are 1d6 with an inherant +2/+2 from Brawling. Plus you can throw your natural attacks in there as secondary on top of that.
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This is not an even assumption, as the damage bonus on a magic weapon is irrelevant. You are not accounting for the accuracy difference. The accuracy is more important than the damage, as it allows you to offset power attack.Accuracy is relative. If I have a 75% chance of hitting on each of my two swings, I don't think 80% chance of hitting your one swing outweighs it.
The two swings vs one becomes largely irrelevant when you are adding iteratives, haste, and AoOs.
Except you aren't hitting against a higher AC. As a Barbarian based DD, your attack bonus is more than high enough to hit with your iterative. You could have a STR 30 without trying, which will overcome the -5 to hit on iterative or your secondary bite.Wait a barbarian is going to have a higher to hit than a sorcerer? I guess if you want that completely different trade off, go for it. At that point why not just be a barbarian?
There is very little difference between a Barbarian 1/Sorc 4/DD X and a Sorc 5/DD x in casting ability but a huge difference in combat ability. If you are going to focus on casting, why not just stay pure sorcerer? DD is designed to be in melee, why wouldn't you build for that?
even still, while you have a +5 eyepatch of mighty fists, the two hander has a a +5 spell storing, fortuitous, keen, holy weapon.I thought you said the bonus to hit the most important part?
It is, but the once you get to +5 to hit, everything else is bonus damage. You can get around that by relying on Greater Magic Weapon for your enhancement bonus and using the AoMF for special abilities, but then you have no way to bypass material based DR.
As always flavor wins out. Sorry to hijack so much of your thread.
There are a few options for 2 handed hammers, Earthbreaker, Bec de corbin, and Lucerne hammer are all listed under martial 2 handers in the ult- equipment. Flavor on them all seems kind of wierd, but you can show them to your DM for examples.
I would definitely go 2 hander over 1+shield. dragon disciple class and magics will make up for any armor shortcomings. Also Paladin's LoH will make up for any damage you do take.
-Edit-
Warhammer-this weapon consists of a wooden haft and a heavy, metal head. The head may be single (like a carpenter's hammer) or double (like a sledgehammer). The haft is long enough that you may wield it one- or two-handed. Though heavy and relatively slow to wield, warhammers are capable of delivering immense blows, crushing armor and flesh alike.
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Weaponry... since the character is, fluffwise, a blacksmith I think it will involve a hammer. 2 handed hammers are a matter of GM fiat I think, since they don't appear in UE(?) but i can't imagine there would be much issue there.
The question becomes 2 handed or 1 handed + buckler. Given that heavy armour is right out is the extra defense worth it without the damage? I know there is going to be a TWF fighter and a bard in the party, not sure about the other 2 players though.
I'd probably go with an Earthbreaker. The two-handed is probably the way to go as then you won't have any issues with casting, and you can take full advantage of the massive STR you'll end up with.
As to defense - with a mithril breastplate eventually (won't be able to wear until 8ish - and that's after taking the trait to get +2 to caster level) you're defense will be respectable with that combined with all of the nat armor bonuses you'll be getting. Not to mention all of the arcane defenses that you can throw up as well. (mirror image/blur etc)
Though actually - the first 2nd level spell I'd grab were I you us Heroism - at low levels you'll have accuracy issues until you start getting all of the STR boosts - and the save boost in combo with the pali levels will mean you pass virtually every save. It's an out of combat buff due to the long duration - which is great for you as in combat you'll be busy hitting things with your hammer rather than spellcasting.
Out of curiosity, how do you see working both claws and hammer? If you're planning to claw someone you'll have to drop your normal weapon if you had it drawn. Also, paying for both a magical weapon and natural attack enhancement is going to be painfully, painfully expensive.
Armor-wise, as a Sorcerer, one level of Arcane Armor Training will allow the use of a mithril kikko without any casting problems. Upgrading to Arcane Armor Mastery is probably not worth it, since all it gets you is one more AC from using a mithril breastplate.
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Armor-wise, as a Sorcerer, one level of Arcane Armor Training will allow the use of a mithril kikko without any casting problems. Upgrading to Arcane Armor Mastery is probably not worth it, since all it gets you is one more AC from using a mithril breastplate.
Good call - I forgot about kikko. While a feat for +1 AC isn't horrible, going with mithril kikko means that you can get it and start enchanting it as early as 3rd level (though probably can't afford until 4ish) as opposed to wearing place-holder armor until 8 or 9.
Out of curiosity, how do you see working both claws and hammer? If you're planning to claw someone you'll have to drop your normal weapon if you had it drawn. Also, paying for both a magical weapon and natural attack enhancement is going to be painfully, painfully expensive.
Armor-wise, as a Sorcerer, one level of Arcane Armor Training will allow the use of a mithril kikko without any casting problems. Upgrading to Arcane Armor Mastery is probably not worth it, since all it gets you is one more AC from using a mithril breastplate.
Probably won't be using the claws all that much. That was one of the points I posted in the first place - I was looking for advice on nat weapons/manufactured and I have been served well on the subject!
I'll be running the claws as an alternative weapon most likely - if i get in close or in some other situation where i want extra attacks (low AC, high HP type) then slashy slashy slashy.
I like the mithril kikko idea - now to UE to find out what a kikko actually is....
Ah, I was wondering because you were going for permaclaws, so they seemed important.
There are a couple of possible alternatives to having claws at all that can be interesting. Tattooed Sorcerer gives you some interesting perks, like possibly an evocation tattoo to make your draconic blasting more powerful. Going crossblooded into Fey automatically makes all enchantment spells more potent (+2 Hideous Laughter and Confusion anyone?) and allows you to pick up the sublimely awesome Laughing Touch power.
Ah, I was wondering because you were going for permaclaws, so they seemed important.
In the slayer build they are, since the main reason for slayer is to get them.
However i've been convinced that manufactured weapons will work just as well.
I'm keen on the Orc bloodline actually for crossblooded - its 9 and 15 level powers are brilliant (and the draconic ones already come up in DD). I'll probably take the orc 3rd level power too to get rid of light blindness, unless there are other ways of doing that?
So claws or touch of rage... i think claws are better all in all. There's going to be a bard and I'll be bringing other buffs so i dont think ToR is needed as well.
Touch of Rage is a standard action with a one-round duration, so it's useless on yourself.
Power of Giants is very powerful but... consider where you have to be to get it. 15 bloodline levels means you would be at least 17? You're probably not going to get that far, and even if you do you'll have access to Monstrous Physique and potentially Dragon Form anyways. Orc bloodline is still good for the strength and the arcana, though you could get the strength from Eldritch Heritage.
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I actually personally like the Bard, you focus on buffing yourself and your allies (mostly yourself), with a few utility spells thrown in for good measure such as remove fear and a perhaps a cure. Have high strength. Your cha can be fine to start with at 14 or so as you won't be fosing on DC's. Get Elven Chainmail when you can. You will still have great skills.
One thing I have wanted to do with this with would be to play a Bard with the Flamedancer archetype. Then use variant multiclassing (sorcerer[dracongic]) from unchained. Switch to Dragon Disciple after level 8.
2 bards in the party are actually quite fine as long as they don't step on each other's toes. If he is the typical enchanter type bard for example you will get along quite well. You will have different spell preferences and be in different roles. Early levels he will probably be doing the inspire courage while you hit things. Later on when you can inspire courage as a move action, he can be doing dirge of doom or inspire heroics. +2 to hit/damage on your side and -2 on their side is pretty huge.
If you want a hammer type weapon, heirloom weapon can be a very good trait for you (if traits allowed), getting an earthbreaker or Lucern Hammer. Also worth considering for martial weapons would be going half-orc for the Falchion or Greataxe... though not exactly a hammer
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If you want a hammer type weapon, heirloom weapon can be a very good trait for you (if traits allowed), getting an earthbreaker or Lucern Hammer. Also worth considering for martial weapons would be going half-orc for the Falchion or Greataxe... though not exactly a hammer
He's already planning to have his first two levels be paladin - he'll get all martial proficiencies.
And while bards can cast in light armor without Arcane Armor Training, and he'll gain a BAB point, in the long-term he'll get much better spellcasting with the sorcerer levels, and the bard abilities won't keep pace. He'll never get bard song as a move action - that requires bard level 7 - and he'd go a max of bard 5 before DD. Unless you're saying he should give up DD entirely for bard - in which case you're saying to throw away his whole character concept.
I'd say at low levels the bard levels are nice, but by 8-9ish at the latest sorc would definitely be better.
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My suggestion is a different take completely on Dragon disciple...
The eventual end result would be bard 8/ DD x. Paladin 2 / Bard 8 / DD 10 could also be considered for a full level 20 build. I'd skip the paladin though until maybe the end. Plus it is completely full of flavor.
In my method you do get almost full bloodline access with the exception of the level 20 power. Tacked onto the power of the bard chassis, rather then the sorcerer. The bard is better for fighting.
The thing about Dragon Disciple is that the overall power of a level varies based on what kind of casting you graft onto it. A level of Bard spellcasting is considerably weaker than a level of Sorcerer spellcasting, so a level of Bard/DD is weaker than a level of Sorcerer/DD.
Bard/DD can certainly be an effective build, but it can start to beg the question of whether it's really worth dropping Bard features and casting levels for a few benefits. The Sorcerer has less to lose and far more to gain in the trade.
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With variant multiclass sorcerer from pathfinder unchained.
I'll agree somewhat that the spell casting is weaker on a bard, but if you are obsessed with spellcasting, why are you going to do dragon disciple? The bard will do what you want just fine, in some ways even better. You are not going to be slinging spells round after round.
Heroism is a level 2 spell, which is a big advantage. You have access to mirror image, alter self, dispel magic, displacement/blink. Later on dimension door and freedom of movement (sorc doesn't). Can also pull out a backup cure in the right situation.
While it may not have everything, there are areas where it is better. It has more then enough.
if you are obsessed with spellcasting, why are you going to do dragon disciple? The bard will do what you want just fine
There are plenty of niche options for blending spellcasting into combat that a Bard doesn't get, such as the ability to throw an overpowered Scorching Ray or Fireball or advance with a Frigid Touch. Going Crossblooded with Fey opens up overpowered enchantment spell options. Elemental Cold opens up all sorts of no-save Rime spell tricks. With the vast amount of casting the Sorcerer gets, you have very versatile options for how you approach a fight, even if you're going to end up smashing things by the end.
@Corwin Thanks for the idea. I can see the value of it. Personally I am no fan of bards, both my partner and I tend to only play the selfish bard archetypes - i just cant get behind the all singing, all dancing spellcaster.
The power of giants will just be gravy if we get that far. Since wings (Draconic 15) comes with the DD I might as well make sure something else nice is coming.
I mentioned earlier in the thread my issues with EH. getting the strength is nice but it involves 3 feats-worth of investment and gives me touch of rage, which as was pointed out ain't much to write home about.
1:Power Attack
3: SF Survival
5: EH
7: Craft Magic Weapons/Armour (blacksmith after all!)
9: ?
11: Improved EH
doesn't make me sing with joy...
On that note how would people line up feats for this character. I'll be looking for Craft MA at some point since its characterful. Otherwise as a Paladin/Cross-blooded Sorceror/DD what feats do i want...?