Alchemist Tumor familiar, improved familiar

[igorwolfgang]

Can an alchemist get improved familiar?

Can they get them with the assumption that they have a caster level?

If they get the feat, does it work with tumor familiar, as in does it still detach and attach and stuff?

[Krell44]

I actually have the same question, but relating to PFS play.

[FLite]

I haven't seen anything to indicate that they can't.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

I have this amusing/disguising concept for an air elemental tumor familiar. Guess where it enters and exits the body...on second thought, don't.

[Joesi]

Note that the Improved Familiar would still need to be tiny or diminutive, resulting in a restricted list.

Personally, I'd restrict that list even more as a GM, removing most or all extraplanar outsiders (but possibly allowing Agathion?) and all the templates, and elementals, resulting in Beheaded, Brownie, Carbuncle, Cat Sith, Ceru, Coral Capuchin, Faerie/Tidepool Dragon, Shadow Drake, Dweomercat Cub, nuglub, homunculus, and so on (too tedious keep going)

The description doesn't specifically say that a caster level is required, it only says the word in the table, which doesn't seem to officially indicate a spell caster requirement. Regardless, it seems silly to provide an alchemist with any sort of outsider type of creature considering that it's created from his own body. Even all these magical creatures is pushing it in my opinion. Considering that the tumor familiar has the benefit of fast healing I think it's very reasonable to deny various familiar types.

[Weirdo]

I don't think it's any less plausible for an alchemist to grow an imp out of their body than it is for them to grow an intelligent cat.

After all, with the right archetype and feat you can put a hound archon in a tiny bottle and throw it at your enemies. And since you don't have to choose which creature you summon until you use the extract, it's not even really a tiny hound archon in a bottle, it's some kind of mysterious extraplanar protoplasm.

Alchemists are magic, and a weird kind of magic at that.

[Joesi]

Weirdo wrote:

I don't think it's any less plausible for an alchemist to grow an imp out of their body than it is for them to grow an intelligent cat.

After all, with the right archetype and feat you can put a hound archon in a tiny bottle and throw it at your enemies. And since you don't have to choose which creature you summon until you use the extract, it's not even really a tiny hound archon in a bottle, it's some kind of mysterious extraplanar protoplasm.

Alchemists are magic, and a weird kind of magic at that.

I disagree. Things like the preservationists abilities are very different than growing a biological organism from an extraordinary ability (it's not supernatural). My issue is with growing an outsider from your own body, and having it merge with the alchemist's body. That doesn't make any sense.

Unless there's free way to permanently transmute a blob of flesh into an outsider, it just wouldn't fly.
Alchemists are great at modifying critters, not outright spontaneously manifesting extra-planar "creatures", or elementals.

Converting an imp-shaped creature into a an imp-shaped creature that actually has imp-like powers and intelligence is certainly within the realm of capability of an alchemist, but not flat out creating outsiders. You need to realize the alchemist is creating this creature and that it gains fast healing because of it's biological symbiosis with it's host/creator. It just doesn't make any sense on all sorts of fronts for outsiders to be craftable. They wouldn't be outsiders then.

[Weirdo]

Familiars have to be extraordinary because otherwise an antimagic field would suppress the ability and that would cause problems.

Eidolons are basically craftable outsiders. Unchained changed the flavour a bit but originally they were treated very much as the summoner shaping some sort of primal extraplanar stuff into a creature.

Alchemists aren't great at extraplanar stuff like summoners are, but the planar preservationist indicates that with extra effort (eg a feat) they should be able to manipulate outsiders in some way.

And what if the alchemist is a native outsider themselves? I think it would make all kinds of sense for a tiefling to be able to grow an imp out of their own body - or an oread to sprout a bunch of crystals that split off into an earth elemental.

Regardless, the rules question is whether they can meet the level requirement, and there's an FAQ request this thread trying to settle whether Improved Familiar is actually limited to characters with an arcane spellcasting level (excluding alchemists, eldritch guardian fighters, carnivalist rogues, etc) or whether they mean "effective wizard level" for which the alchemist qualifies. A GM can always disallow things for thematic reasons, and while I personally don't believe an improved tumor familiar stretches credibility I can see why some GMs might have a problem with it.

[Joesi]

In my opinion just because something follows the rules doesn't make it okay. It's why there are GMs (I guess you already essentially said that).

It doesn't make sense for a lightning elemental to attach to the alchemist and start gaining fast healing due to it, nor for it to grow from their body as a creature, nor for it to have been something else transmuted into an elemental.

Even if improved familiar is supposed to be for specific level arcane spell casters only, I would still keep by the opinion that tumor familiar users should be able to get an improved familiar as long as the familiar isn't an outsider and isn't larger than tiny. I am in favor of alchemists gaining Craft Wondrous Item regardless of RAW for instance.

It doesn't make sense that an alchemist couldn't get an Improved familiar. It does make sense that an alchemist couldn't get an outsider familiar though. Least, that's my opinion; other GMs can do whatever they want. If a player wanted to work something out and had a good reason to explain it, I'd consider it, but not allowed in general.

[Byakko]

Versions of this thread come up every few weeks.

There's valid arguments for both sides, and overall it isn't really clear.

Expect table variation until they eventually get around to updating things involving familiars. I was really hoping the Familiar Folio would do so, but it only added new options instead of clarifying existing ones.

[Cavall]

As is tradition.

As it stands now (as is my understanding ) because they aren't casters you can't have the feat. So clearly if you bend the rules there it's now entirely up to GM approval anyways for what is and isn't allowed.

[Gisher]

Byakko wrote:

Versions of this thread come up every few weeks.

There's valid arguments for both sides, and overall it isn't really clear.

Expect table variation until they eventually get around to updating things involving familiars. I was really hoping the Familiar Folio would do so, but it only added new options instead of clarifying existing ones.

I was hoping the same thing for the Familiar Folio. There really are a ridiculous number of threads regarding Improved Familiar. Maybe it's time to start one big FAQ request thread and finally resolve these issues.

Cavall wrote:

As is tradition.

As it stands now (as is my understanding ) because they aren't casters you can't have the feat. So clearly if you bend the rules there it's now entirely up to GM approval anyways for what is and isn't allowed.

Alchemists can't, but Aberrant Bloodline Bloodragers can. So the question of whether you can apply Improved Familiar to a Tumor Familiar is still relevant.

[Cavall]

Well I could be semantic and say that's not the OP, but I hear that logic. But they are casters, not like alchemists, so it's not exactly the same issue. But yes I can see that even if they qualify, the GM may still have a say over what you can choose from.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Alchemists can meet the prerequisites to take the Improved Familiar Feat. The Improved Familiar will not normally be a Tumor anymore, though. The Alchemist's level does count as an Arcane Caster level when it comes to Familiars. Caster levels in Witch, for instance would stack with levels in Alchemist for increasing Familiar Abilities.

Personally, though, I like Tumor Familiars' Fast Healing 5 a lot, and I would be very reluctant to take Improved Familiar and lose it. Also, the most important reason for me to take a Familiar in the first place to to get that bonus like my Mystic Theurge's +2 Reflex Save she gets from her Fox.

Perhaps you could take Evolved Familiar to improve your familiar.

[Weirdo]

Joesi wrote:

In my opinion just because something follows the rules doesn't make it okay. It's why there are GMs (I guess you already essentially said that).

Agreed, just trying to draw attention to the lack of clarity in the actual rule.

Cavall wrote:

As it stands now (as is my understanding ) because they aren't casters you can't have the feat. So clearly if you bend the rules there it's now entirely up to GM approval anyways for what is and isn't allowed.

If "arcane spellcasting level" is taken to refer to actual spellcasting rather than effective wizard level, it also causes problems for divine casters with familiars gained from Familiar Bond, Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), wizard variant multiclass (from Unchained) or other sources. The shaman is another issue, though its specific restriction on changing the type of your familiar complicates things (it rules out Improved Familiar by RAW though possibly not RAI).

[FLite]

Scott:

So, you are saying if you take improved familiar any unique class mechanics of your familiar are lost, and you only have a vanilla wizard familiar plus any options a wizard could take?

Ouch. Gotta suck to be a witch with an improved familiar. Bye bye all your spells.

[Cavall]

Brb gotta tear up my level 17 witch.

[Scott Wilhelm]

FLite wrote:

Scott:

So, you are saying if you take improved familiar any unique class mechanics of your familiar are lost, and you only have a vanilla wizard familiar plus any options a wizard could take?

Ouch. Gotta suck to be a witch with an improved familiar. Bye bye all your spells.

Not exactly. I'm saying that if you replace your Fox Tumor Familiar with an Arbiter Inevitable Familiar, it will no longer give you a +2 on your Reflex Saves and will no longer be a Tumor, your little growth having been replaced with a creature from the Outer Planes.

That's my guess at your GM's ruling.

A Witch's familiar already is a creature from another plane, so if you replace your familiar with another exotic creature, there's no reason to suppose it won't be a replacement sent by your occult Master, and still a link to your powers.

But now that you mention it, and now that I think of it, maybe Improved Familiar will cause your Tumor to be inhabited with the SPIRIT of a Pseudo Dragon.

And there are Improved Familiars that are not new creatures at all, but rather Templates that get imposed on other creatures, so that maybe your Crab Familiar will just become a Resolute Crab Familiar.

I have added my vote for this question to be resolved with an FAQ.

Meanwhile, I suggest that you might instead of replacing your familiar with Improved Familiar, you might just upgrade it with Evolved Familiar, just to be safe.

[Milo v3]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

A Witch's familiar already is a creature from another plane

No more than any familiar is from another plane... I'm pretty sure familiars are magical beasts, not outsiders.

[FLite]

For that matter, the witch communes with their patron through the familiar, but is it really sent to them by their patron?

After all with the exception of the winter witch, there is no limits put on the improved familiar they can chose, So you could have a witch with a patron of insanity, and a lawful familiar.

[Scott Wilhelm]

And, upon reflection, I cannot recall a stated reason for denying an Alchemist the benefits of his Discoveries just because he takes another Feat.

I'm still pretty sure that replacing a familiar with a different one confers different benefits, though, that a Centipede gives you a bonus to your Initiative, but a Quasit might not. As to whether your Quasit is a Tumor Quasit and gets Fast Healing 5 when attached to you, you are making me less sure.

But "less sure" means that Evolved Familiar is the more prudent choice than Improved Familiar.

[Weirdo]

Evolved Familiar is safer if this is PFS, or if you don't know who will GM for this character.

If you know who your GM is, though, see if they will approve it. Doesn't hurt to ask, especially if you are willing to compromise on the specific familiar selected.

[Gisher]

I just ran across this thread describing the new Spell Knowledge alchemist discovery from Cohorts and Companions. We have a developer confirming that...

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

It gives you a caster level and counts as a spell on your spell list for purposes of prerequisites. I'm not sure it's a *good* path to any PrCs (you're going to get a spell of any given level much later than true casting class), but I'd certainly assume you are considered a spellcaster.

So now alchemists can meet the caster level prerequisites for Improved Familiar. (As well as Crafting feats, Prestige Classes, and Arcane Strike.)

Edit: It looks like this discovery will be PFS legal.