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So I was looking at the "Spell Knowledge" discovery in Cohorts and Companions and this is an amazing upgrade for alchemists. You actually cast the chosen sorcerer wizard spell. You don't add it to your formula list and gain the ability to make it as an extract, you actually cast it as an arcane spell. You gain a caster level equal to your alchemist level.
The immediate thing that jumps out is that alchemists can finally take item creation feats.
But what about prestige classes? Is an alchemist now an arcane casting class for purposes of a prestige class? What other interactions are now possible?
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Arcane Strike!
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I gave it considerable thought. This seemed a reasonable price. I would't have noted that the spell counted toward using magic items and prerequisites if I hadn't given it any thought.
What I didn't want to do was say "this one archetype can make this one specific construct, but no other alchemist can do anything else like that, even though we just proved t can be done in-world."
Alchemists can get Craft Ooze again! This makes me very happy.
I didn't even know that this existed. :)
How would you use this?
I gave it considerable thought. This seemed a reasonable price. I would't have noted that the spell counted toward using magic items and prerequisites if I hadn't given it any thought.
What I didn't want to do was say "this one archetype can make this one specific construct, but no other alchemist can do anything else like that, even though we just proved t can be done in-world."
That makes sense to me. I have to say that I love the flavor of the Construct Rider. It makes me think of Dilvish and Black.
I think Craft Ooze can only really be used to its maximum potential by an NPC. I'm imagining a gnome alchemist using Craft Ooze to build himself a little ooze farm, with a Cave Druid cohort using wild empathy to make them helpful, and using the Bottled Ooze discovery to prepare an entire barrage of oozes for use in emergencies. Now THAT would be an interesting place for a group of PCs to visit.
That does sound like fun. I guess these NPC's could sell oozes, too. Evil wizards could buy them for use in dungeon traps. Local crime bosses could purchase some to dispose of bodies. Assassins might use Slithering Trackers to eliminate their targets. The players might need to obtain the Gnome's client list as part of a larger adventure.
I remember hearing about that last month (although I suppose it wasn't official then), but to me it still seems a little bit strange:
Wasn't there a ruling and subsequent clarification with regards to SLAs in that SLAs treat the creature as if they could cast that specific spell, but not as a generic/outright spellcaster?
You are probably thinking of this. It did replace the previous FAQ that allowed SLA's to count as spells for most purposes.
I don't see this scenario as too different. The only difference is that they are actually casting that spell, which in a sense in a world of difference, but in another sense, practically no difference at all. It's nearly the same, just different wording. Why can alchemists do this but not rogues, for example?
I suppose that the in-game reason would be that Alchemists already have some magic, even if it isn't technically casting. Rogues don't have any magic as basic class features so they can get SLA's using Minor Magic and Major Magic, but they can't quite get actual spells. That's all just supposition on my part, though.
I think it's lame that a player would have to take a "feat" tax like this. I don't see any reason why anyone would get the discovery normally considering it has to be 2 levels lower than the max castable. It seems to me like it wouldn't be worth using up a discovery just to be able to get a crafting feat nor for something like Arcane Strike, although I guess if one went for 2-3 of such feats it would be worth it.
Reasons to get the discovery might include...
*Getting a wizard spell. Potentially any wizard spell up to 4th level. (I'm thinking that Shocking Grasp might be nice if you took the Magus VMC.)
*Qualifying for Arcane Strike (and then for Riving Strike). And enabling Arcane Strike to scale with your level.
*Qualifying for various Improved Familiars.
*Qualifying for various Crafting Feats.
The cost/benefit balance is going to vary depending on the player and the build, but I'm sure that some people will be willing to take this discovery.
I think Craft Ooze can only really be used to its maximum potential by an NPC. I'm imagining a gnome alchemist using Craft Ooze to build himself a little ooze farm, with a Cave Druid cohort using wild empathy to make them helpful, and using the Bottled Ooze discovery to prepare an entire barrage of oozes for use in emergencies. Now THAT would be an interesting place for a group of PCs to visit.
I'm curious why you think it can only really be used by an NPC.
I have a character with this feat that has opened his own business (An Amorphorium) where he sells oozes (custom made, of course) and, as a side business, he also does waste disposal (to feed his own oozes) :)
He finds adventuring tiresome and only does it to fund his research.
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The SLA FAQ doesn't apply, as Spell Knowledge is not a SLA. It specifically allows you to prepare and cast this spell as an arcane spell, using your extract slots as spell slots. You are also explicitly considered to have this spell on your spell list for purposes of prerequisites, spell completion items, and spell trigger items.
Even if you only take the discovery once, you can prepare multiple castings of that spell per day, so you would meet "spells" clauses.
It shouldn't have taken this long. I never understood why the alchemist s were supernatural and yet not considered spellcasters when alchemy is not magical according to the rules. This struck me as a massive oversight and made me start to agree with Sean K. Reynolds when he said that establishing a difference between supernatural and extraordinary is stupid and helps contribute to the double standard between magic and non-magical abilities.
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It gives you a caster level and counts as a spell on your spell list for purposes of prerequisites. I'm not sure it's a *good* path to any PrCs (you're going to get a spell of any given level much later than true casting class), but I'd certainly assume you are considered a spellcaster.
Oh, I agree. It isn't going to be an "early entry workaround." But it may allow some odd combinations of (single base class) prestige classing that weren't available before. Vivisectionist Arcane Trickster, anyone?
The thing that I'm not clear on - so hopefully you can speak to intent, Owen - is if you do take a prestige class that advances spellcasting in an arcane spellcasting class would that advance your extracts (since the alchemist is now an "arcane spellcasting class")?
Also if I am an 8th level alchemist and pick a 1st level wizard spell, I have to use a second level alchemist slot to prepare it. Is it a first level spell or a second level spell?
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The thing that I'm not clear on - so hopefully you can speak to intent, Owen -
I can happily speak to my take on it as developer, but since I'm not on the rules team this isn;t a FAQ or errata.
if you do take a prestige class that advances spellcasting in an arcane spellcasting class would that advance your extracts (since the alchemist is now an "arcane spellcasting class")?
I'd say yes.
Also if I am an 8th level alchemist and pick a 1st level wizard spell, I have to use a second level alchemist slot to prepare it. Is it a first level spell or a second level spell?
For you it's second - it's the same level as the extract slot needed to cast it. It's like break enchantment being a 4th level spell for a bard, and 5th level for a cleric.
if you do take a prestige class that advances spellcasting in an arcane spellcasting class would that advance your extracts (since the alchemist is now an "arcane spellcasting class")?I'd say yes.
Really?!? I never imagined this being a result of taking the discovery since extracts aren't spells. But since it lets you use elixir slots to hold spells I think I can see the logic. This might open up some interesting possibilities... [mental gears spinning]
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The thing that I'm not clear on - so hopefully you can speak to intent, Owen -I can happily speak to my take on it as developer, but since I'm not on the rules team this isn;t a FAQ or errata.
if you do take a prestige class that advances spellcasting in an arcane spellcasting class would that advance your extracts (since the alchemist is now an "arcane spellcasting class")?I'd say yes.
Well THAT is awesome... very nice.
Can an Alchemist with the spell knowledge discovery
now take the improved familiar feat ?
The Arcane Caster requirement was addressed in an FAQ, so the Discovery isn't necessary. Though a Tumor cannot be an Improved Familiar, so you'll need a Familiar from another source.