Green Dragon Encounters


Advice

Silver Crusade

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If you're in my game, and you know who you are, don't open the spoiler further. :/

Green Dragon Encounter:
Alright, this is why I created this thread.

I've got an upcoming event with the party where they'll be dealing with a green dragon in his lair. Specifically they're looking for the 'lair experience' since they've fought a lot of dragons on the wing and I intend to fully enable them.

Firstly, before getting to the lair they'll need to fight past a small army of trolls (some using the classes and builds from the lovely monster codex). I was considering making some of them half-dragon trolls to give them an acid resistance, but 1.) Thought that the green dragon doing that sort of thing was creepy and 2.) In the long run it'd make the trolls less tractable for him.

Once in the lair I have a lot of fun horrible stuff planned, in addition to the horrible discovery of how the green dragon maintains his security.

The lower portion of the forest temple complex is flooded from a nearby swamp.

So after dealing with some of the surface fun-time, the party will need to then delve down deeply into the murky, water filled temple areas (lovely 1d8X10 feet vision range). They'll then need to make their way past traps, underwater problems and the like.

Also when I was generating loot for this fine fellow I discovered a ring of elemental command water came up, so...flooded dragon dungeon and the summoner's No. 1 go-to huge water elementals become functionally useless against him. Win win, I pulled an Ashiel.

Now the party itself is a six man party, 15th level and comprised of a barbarian, rogue (scout type with the lovely no AoO, 40+ AC Lock down technique), paladin, cleric, summoner and bard (who uses his flagbearer and ancient kings standard to give +6s to attack and damage to people within 30 feet of him).

Party has previously ID'd our host, the Green Dragon as being ancient or wyrm in age. I've been working with him being an Ancient, but since they're the same size and the difference in age is close I could kick him up.

So my question to you folks...

How can I improve the encounter not only for the Not-Die-Like-A-Scrub factor, but for the overall fun of it?

I know that underwater engagements are typically a pain in the butt, but I like the difficulty curve and visual of having to fight a dragon in a murky underwater area filled with the broken remnants of the ruined temple.

The underwater combat swings both ways I realize. Since the green is not in fact an aquatic creature, it still suffers a -2 to all attacks made with slashing weapons and does half damage, meaning all of its attacks save for its bite are getting nerfed down there although its spells, abilities and the like still function normally.

I could have it use a wand of freedom of movement, or something, but that seems kind of cheesy.

I'm also debating if I should have other elements to the battle, such as giant sharks, allied spell casters, or the like. I don't want to detract from the 'dragon battle' but I do know that single monster encounters are always horrible ideas.

Basically, what do you folks think I could do to make this a more challenging, interesting and fun encounter?

Sovereign Court

First of all, it is a green dragon, green dragon are cunning and use magic a lot to their advantage. Because green dragons don't have the luxury of being the most powerful dragons and aren't the weakest either.

Green dragons favor knowledge and lore, so usually their hoards would be full of books, library, scrolls and magical items. You could make it an aquatic encounter but do remember to put the books, library far away from the water...after all, the green dragon wouldn't want to destroy his precious hoard of knowledge.

If you want to make that fight memorable and have them told stories for many years to come...make him a Wyrm Green Dragon. Remember that green dragon focuses on magical knowledge, obtaining rare magical items and artifacts?

Give him an orb of green dragonkind, with him giving a group of five old green dragons under his command because of the orb. They would never expect to come to a room and be assaulted everywhere by dragonbreaths and spells from everywhere.

Now adding more guardians, Add one or two Rune Giant, a wyrm green dragon can reasonably find and creates magical runes or items to control rune giants to be his guardians. Hell, it wouldn't even be uncommon for him to make deals with evil outsiders, devils most likely (A Pit fiend even if you are feeling ballsy.).

Also remember not all dragons have the same spell list, you can tweak the sorcerer spells known for whatever you want to do, more melee, battlefield control etc...just don't hesitate to customize the spell list to your dragon needs.

Silver Crusade

Eltacolibre wrote:

First of all, it is a green dragon, green dragon are cunning and use magic a lot to their advantage. Because green dragons don't have the luxury of being the most powerful dragons and aren't the weakest either.

Green dragons favor knowledge and lore, so usually their hoards would be full of books, library, scrolls and magical items. You could make it an aquatic encounter but do remember to put the books, library far away from the water...after all, the green dragon wouldn't want to destroy his precious hoard of knowledge.

If you want to make that fight memorable and have them told stories for many years to come...make him a Wyrm Green Dragon. Remember that green dragon focuses on magical knowledge, obtaining rare magical items and artifacts?

Give him an orb of green dragonkind, with him giving a group of five old green dragons under his command because of the orb. They would never expect to come to a room and be assaulted everywhere by dragonbreaths and spells from everywhere.

Now adding more guardians, Add one or two Rune Giant, a wyrm green dragon can reasonably find and creates magical runes or items to control rune giants to be his guardians. Hell, it wouldn't even be uncommon for him to make deals with evil outsiders, devils most likely (A Pit fiend even if you are feeling ballsy.).

Also remember not all dragons have the same spell list, you can tweak the sorcerer spells known for whatever you want to do, more melee, battlefield control etc...just don't hesitate to customize the spell list to your dragon needs.

Oh the spell list is getting modified. He's an ancient at least, he's not going with a pre-list.

I like the orb of dragonkind idea, but this guy's not the main baddy (He's technically a high power side quest. The party is going after him because he's near a city, they have the capability, and they want his hoard to pay for something), so I don't know if I want him carrying that kind of candy around.

I do like the idea of other dragons backing him up, greenies are cynical, cunning jerks, but I still remember that 2e taught me that they're extremely loving and protective parents. I had considered him having back up from a mate or children but despite being evil, I don't know if he'd want to risk them. Hmm, maybe a prospective mate backs him up?

The issue with a rune giant is that the party would've heard about it. Those aren't quiet things, and they're bleeding enormous.

The party did hear that he has a veritable army of trolls (actually trolls above, scrags below).

I'd have evil outsiders, but those are in 'theme' for other baddies in the campaign.

His lair is an old disused, flooded temple, filled with angry ghosts of murdered clergy, undead, scrabs, marine gargoyles, and really big crabs. So the party's going to have to deal with stuff as they find their way down to him.


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Give his spell list access to various curative spells.

Have him spend a feat or two mastering alternative (water) dragon breath weapons. Electricity from bronze dragons, fire from sea dragons.

Guerilla tactics, especially in combination with curative magic items in his hoard that he retreats to between 1-2 round bush-whackings. Pops up while the party is dealing with trolls/ghosts/flesh munching crabs and tags the PCs with breath weapon or spells.

Added bonus if he has arcane sight up and running and strips assorted communal spells from them mid-fight via dispel or quickened dispel from a water-safe 'scroll' (a stone tablet that disintegrates upon use, let's say). Or he drops a haste on his minions. A slow on the PCs. Etc.


First thought that popped into my head was the fight(s) did not need to be underwater to increase the challenge. Knee and or waist deep will make movement vastly more difficult at least for creature up to a certain size (depending on how deep you make it). Having the party slogging around in knee+ deep water will slow them down, a Huge+ creature not so much.

Not sure if you've overlooked or forgotten this from reading the above, bolding mine: Water Breathing (Ex) A green dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

Seems to me it already effectively has Freedom of Movement.

If the party is not submerged but is in an area where it's movement is hampered by the water depth consider using the tail slap/crush ability in an unexpected way > to create a large wave which hits the party like a mass bull rush attempt by the dragon (followed by the minions rushing in, Entangle etc.). Damage might be reduced or eliminated depending on how you treat the attempt (or how much debris is in the water).

Give it a slightly younger visitor, a black dragon of appropriate age perhaps even making the players wonder if they (or their sources) got the color correct {deep dark green in poor light vs black with an oily sheen for example}. Now it's both a dragon battle and not a single creature encounter.

Can't recall if I've ever seen an "aquatic kobold" before. Maybe have some fun there :)

Silver Crusade

Kayerloth wrote:

First thought that popped into my head was the fight(s) did not need to be underwater to increase the challenge. Knee and or waist deep will make movement vastly more difficult at least for creature up to a certain size (depending on how deep you make it). Having the party slogging around in knee+ deep water will slow them down, a Huge+ creature not so much.

Not sure if you've overlooked or forgotten this from reading the above, bolding mine: Water Breathing (Ex) A green dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

Seems to me it already effectively has Freedom of Movement.

If the party is not submerged but is in an area where it's movement is hampered by the water depth consider using the tail slap/crush ability in an unexpected way > to create a large wave which hits the party like a mass bull rush attempt by the dragon (followed by the minions rushing in, Entangle etc.). Damage might be reduced or eliminated depending on how you treat the attempt (or how much debris is in the water).

Give it a slightly younger visitor, a black dragon of appropriate age perhaps even making the players wonder if they (or their sources) got the color correct {deep dark green in poor light vs black with an oily sheen for example}. Now it's both a dragon battle and not a single creature encounter.

Can't recall if I've ever seen an "aquatic kobold" before. Maybe have some fun there :)

The younger visitor thing that keeps getting suggested is really growing on me. :)

And no, sadly, the statement seems limited to its breath weapons, spells, and abilities. This actually inspired me when I first read it. I was going to have underwater segments cordoned off with screens of thick coral or dangerous seaweed. The dragon can pass without trace through it no trouble, but others can't.

I'd also support the hit-and-run thing )dimension door does wonders), but the party's used to dealing with fiends and is quick on d-anchors.


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Who said anything about teleportation effects? ;) Water-filled tunnels just big enough for the dragon work wonders.

Edit: The dragon has 120' blindsense - its best friend in the whole lair is hideously murky water. The kind that obscures vision to 10' but doesn't do a thing to stop draconic senses. The party cannot target something they cannot see. Darkvision is of no help to them. Summoned monsters don't know what to attack because their summoner cannot perceive it. It knows their squares within range and ALL of its abilities work just fine - fire spells, chain lightning ad nauseam. Adding insult to injury is echolocation - now it adds blindsight to 40'.

The dragon's greatest advantages are inherent: it knows the terrain better than anything else can hope to. Certainly better than the intruders. Odds are it has 3 exits from everywhere but its hoard - and that it quite possibly has a special exit strategy for.

They'll have to slather on two or more dimensional anchors - what if it has spell turning to return the favor? ;)

Silver Crusade

Turin the Mad wrote:
Who said anything about teleportation effects? ;) Water-filled tunnels just big enough for the dragon work wonders.

Just big enough for the gargantuan dragon? ;)

He does have a swim speed, which does give him an advantage, but this might also result in the first encounter with him being the last.

When you mentioned this, I briefly considered the synergy this has with replacing one of his sixth level spells known with anti-magic field.

All of a sudden the underwater areas become more dangerous if he 'blows' a few antimagics to make the area around him into 'time to hold your breath' zone.

Its unfortunate that he can't just leave anti-magic bubbles around, also the fact that the size of the emanation wouldn't cover the whole dragon.

The fake-out idea given above made me think about potentially using a snowman solution.

Since the CL of a Wyrm is 15, he could conceivably make a simulacra of himself. (Wyrm is 25HD). Its a 12,500 expenditure, but its pretty damn tough itself, and likely to eat a few useful counter-dragon spells.


Since when can't an anti-magic field emanate from single-use spikes that he james into a wall? Say, via telekinesis? ;) If you use Item Creation feats, Craft Wondrous Item is his friend.

They'd have to be able to perceive him as he can also potentially use illusion magic to appear as anything else, making veil also Your Friend. Thus, amidst a group of scrags, the rest come boiling forward while he hides via camouflage, then a "half-green-dragon-scrag" lets loose with a full wyrm's breath weapon.

If he is able to give himself a mind blank (and I hope that he is) that goes a long way to leveling the playing field. Maybe he has a tablet or two of mind blank in his hoard for "use in case of adventurers butchering my minions".

The dragon's camouflage ability is nasty as it doesn't care about anything other than the dragon's size and Stealth bonus. Two feats adds +10 to his Stealth bonus. Certain spells that are not invisibility also help. ;)

Stat up his simulacra as young adults advanced from Large to Gargantuan size and you're good to go.

Edit: didn't that 'problem' with emanations from larger creatures get corrected to 'emanates from the edge of your space'?

2nd Edit: Also, it's odd the subtyping of some dragons. Greens are (air), yet lair in forested swamps. They should be (water).

Silver Crusade

Turin the Mad wrote:

Since when can't an anti-magic field emanate from single-use spikes that he james into a wall? Say, via telekinesis? ;) If you use Item Creation feats, Craft Wondrous Item is his friend.

They'd have to be able to perceive him as he can also potentially use illusion magic to appear as anything else, making veil also Your Friend. Thus, amidst a group of scrags, the rest come boiling forward while he hides via camouflage, then a "half-green-dragon-scrag" lets loose with a full wyrm's breath weapon.

If he is able to give himself a mind blank (and I hope that he is) that goes a long way to leveling the playing field. Maybe he has a tablet or two of mind blank in his hoard for "use in case of adventurers butchering my minions".

The dragon's camouflage ability is nasty as it doesn't care about anything other than the dragon's size and Stealth bonus. Two feats adds +10 to his Stealth bonus. Certain spells that are not invisibility also help. ;)

Stat up his simulacra as young adults advanced from Large to Gargantuan size and you're good to go.

Edit: didn't that 'problem' with emanations from larger creatures get corrected to 'emanates from the edge of your space'?

2nd Edit: Also, it's odd the subtyping of some dragons. Greens are (air), yet lair in forested swamps. They should be (water).

To whit..

Pathfinder PRD wrote:


Anti-Magic Field
School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text

So no, anti-magic field on him or nowhere else.

Sadly, no mind blank. He's only got up to 7th level spells. Mind Blank is 8. He also knows that one of the party (the rogue) packs an eyepiece of true seeing.

I'm not sure on the 'emanation' thing, but that would make him more dangerous (except against the paladin).

As a side comment, I always find it hilarious that dragon design seems to think that a 20/magic DR means something impressive, a fifth level character can bypass it.


According to this emanations from bigguns work. The dragon can use anti-magic field juuuust fine. <grin>

DR/magic is primarily of use against summoned monsters - most aren't able to beat that DR, even if they can beat the dragon's AC, until very high levels.

That eyepiece, along with similar items of equipage (banner) is prime target for a chain lightning IF the dragon's save DC is high enough - a combat maneuver to steal via telekinesis or something similar perhaps. A limited wish can certainly address certain ... situations. A dispel magic can turn it off.

Scrolls, scrolls, scrolls. ;)

true seeing doesn't do a thing against good old fashioned Stealth via camouflage.


And true seeing doesn't work against mundane concealment -- like, say, muddy water or kelp screens.

Don't forget lots of giant advanced assassin vines growing all over the place.

A 15th-level party is not likely to be hindered by having to wade through wage -- that's what flying is for. Full underwater may still give them problems.

Wall spells might be handy for the dragon to temporarily block off portions of his lair, and emergency force sphere would definitely help.

Consider giving the dragon DR/epic instead of DR/magic. The party can still beat it with a +4/5 dragonbane weapon, if they think of it, but it might help slightly.

Scarab Sages

15th level is not my normal forte, so some of this advice may be useless depending on your party's equipment and tactics. Here goes:

- Give him an escape route, like teleport or Dimension Door to a nearby cavern that only has small cracks to access. Then have a few potions of gaseous form there for him to quaff and escape, either to a deeper room in his lair or heading outside and working his way back in behind the party. After healing up and re-buffing of course.

- Being a collector of lore and information, this dragon should almost surely know details about how the party fights and who they are. At 15th level, they are in the upper echelon of characters (at least in Golarion) and shouldnt be hard to figure out using lore. Feel free to build exact counters to favored party tactics.

- Advanced crystal oozes, gelatinous cubes, etc that are invisible in full water. They may not really challenge the party much, but could potentially tie them up a few rounds here and there and keep the party a bit more wary.

If you want to be extremely cruel, put an aboleth in the lair that is meeting with the dragon to trade for rare lore.

Grand Lodge

Did not read all the suggestions, but Golems might solve the back up problem. You are right, giants would likely to have been heard of, if not seen. Golems however, care not for being outside, getting food, doing anything other then what their master orders.


Green Wyrms get At-Will Dominate Person and Charm Person as SLAs. I'd expect them to be in heavy use. How did the PCs get their information on the dragon? If some of it came through NPCs... well, that can end Amusingly Badly.

Silver Crusade

Information on the dragon came from when he showed up on an unrelated event. He got promised 'the forest east of (a certain landmark)' as his demense by the zomok that ruled over the western part of the forest.

Due to shennigans the city in the middle ended up be-tree'd and the dragon intended to push his claim.

The party managed to get the forest to withdraw back to its normal borders (and presumably prevent the green from returning, but they don't want to leave a green of his age and intents around to threaten a city that's been through two city-wide catastrophes, also they need something like 1 million gold pieces to pay for repairs to a super-dreadnought airship they found so...two birds, one stone.

They got the information straight from the forest guardian, also records contained in the city, talking with a bunch of drunk satyrs, and consulting with silver dragons who live far to the south. They're also a 15th level party with a bard. So their information is pretty tight.

The dragon for his part knows a lot about the party too since they're 15th level folks, who saved a city (the one he's relatively near at that), liberated a small country, have killed a whole host of other fiends, dragons and nasty folks and may include the chosen paladin of an overgod of good.

He's been trying to keep them at relatively arm's length and tried to use the 'you don't want to mess with me, you can't stay here at this city all the time' strategy with them as a stick to get them to comply with some tribute. He reasoned that they had bigger fish to fry besides him and would provide him with some minor tribute just to keep him from causing trouble. The plan backfired on him.


Don't forget to use those trolls to the best of your abilities. Have them strike and fade away. The trolls can win any war of attrition because they just need a little time out of combat and they are back to full health. When they retreat through an area and the heros rush to take them out, don't forget mechanical and magical traps that are super hard to spot because they are in this murky watery environment. This is an ancient wyrm's lair. That means centuries of building and improving the entire area to be defensible against all comers including other dragons not just puny adventurers. And then while the adventurers are licking their wounds from the traps and trolls' smack down the trolls are preparing the next battlefield and being buffed by the dragon to do it all over again. When the adventurers finally get to the dragon they should wiped out of magic items, spells and healing. Now the dragon is fighting backing into a corner but it is his corner so this last stand would be full of tricks he can use to his advantage. Good luck and provide us a play by play when you have done this encounter.


Quote:
I was considering making some of them half-dragon trolls to give them an acid resistance, but 1.) Thought that the green dragon doing that sort of thing was creepy and 2.) In the long run it'd make the trolls less tractable for him.

1)Creepy is good. He's an evil creature.

2) he's got charm person, suggestion and dominate person at will. I would maybe also shift the skill points a bit maybe for some intimidate. He can handle fiendish trolls. Also breath weapon and acid fog spell

A green should be a manipulative evil bastard. Give him lots of minions.

Quote:
I was going to have underwater segments cordoned off with screens of thick coral or dangerous seaweed. The dragon can pass without trace through it no trouble, but others can't.

Well why not have them still? And not only underwater... He has Plant growth at will. So he can create them on the fly. And woodland stride and camouflage. And entangle at will.

Use terrain & guerilla tactics & smoke & mirrors

Shrubbery for that entanglement spell or as a basis for plant growth, low lighting, cloud effects in an underground terrain, lots of caverns small and big ones, partial underwater, a respectable stealth skill (getting awesome with alter self or polymorph btw. He could hide among some minions.

A green dragon should be a very tricksy versatile skirmisher with lots of deceiving tricks and combos up his sleeve. He can also be an awesome spy and manipulator. Also think about tricksy creatures that he could summon.

Also think 3 dimensional upwards and downwards, he can fly, breath underwater & swim (underwater tunnels going down from rooms), possibly change size and sneak, change the terrain.


the 2e ecology of green dragon notes that they enslave hill giants and have evil forest creatures as friends or spies. So I suggest rolling on a forest encounter table a few times and thinking about the relationship the creatures could have with dragon.


Have you read Dragons Revisited?


Holy moly that ring sure has some powers. Think about a few combos between the ring and his own spells/abilities. Control Water (use raise water option while underground) should be great in a pitch to change the battlefield. Then ice wall.

Also summon monster 7 allows for a few giant moray eels which I do find too creepy. Or you know dire crocodile. Or elementals. Plus charming the parties elementals.

The more I think about it the more I feel like this should not become a simple boss fight. The green should have so many complex tricks up his sleeve that a party of 15th level PCs might survive but I don't think they should be able to pin him down or to say it the other way round he would not get caught in a fight with them unless it is one he anticipated and planned in detail. Otherwise he would fade away when he starts loosing and return later. Or send a few invisible stalkers. He should be subtle and tricksy as hell


Have the dragon go for the capture, not the kill. Or if it does kill them, have it raise them from the dead when it's done, and once their captured or raised have it make them an offer they can't refuse.

LE dragons are gamemasters. They have massive networks of minions, and adventures showing up to try to kill them are just another opportunity to gain more high-powered minions. Geas could be a useful spell for the dragon to know.

Assume the dragon is watching them from the moment they get within a 1 mile (or more) radius of its lair. Also assume it knows nearly everything about them from reputation alone (15th level characters are superstars, everyone should know who they are.) 'Protection from' spells to keep summons away, and dismissal or banishment to get rid of the eidolon. A scroll or wand of "Shield of Fortification, greater" will protect, at least partially, against sneak attacks and critical hits. You could also use bracers of armor with heavy fortification, but I would recommend bracers with a Warding enchantment instead, which cancels smites as an immediate action. Let the paladin get within smiting range, as soon as he smites, immediate action to cancel it, absorb the normal hits from him, and then squish the paladin. Calm Emotions will shut down the bard's inspiration abilities, many spells, and the barbarians' rage. Waves of Fatigue is a fantastic spell and has no save.

The dragon could also use Misdirection (perhaps Heightened) to make its alignment appear neutral to a paladin's Detect Evil, and buy time by claiming to be a reformed green dragon who simply wants to be left alone, and the armies of trolls and other monsters are just to discourage treasure hunters.


He or a friend has Spell Immunity (for Dimensional Anchor).

tonyz is correct, wading through the water, sludge or whatever goo is under foot is not something a 15th lvl party is going to do in all likely hood if they wish to avoid it. But your more familiar with the individual characters response. The variety of terrain ('dry', partially submerged, or underwater) will, however, make it more interesting, validate their choice and make any change in terrain less likely to draw suspicion. And you can always work to make flying near the ceiling also undesirable.

Note the interaction between Plant Growth and Entangle if you haven't already (i.e. the DC on Entangle goes up by 4).

Agree with kestral make liberal use of Dominate and Charm. Unless they start taking precautions every movement they make, who they interact with, talk to, buy stuff from, etc. should risk getting reported by folks the dragon has enchanted (especially as time goes by). Perhaps the one of the first challenges they (your PCs) need to overcome is uncovering, then evading (and maybe dismantling - gently even since many, not all, of the 'spies' are potentially unwilling and innocent) the dragon's elaborate spy network. Something I feel the dragon is sure to be working on having in any nearby inhabited areas where bothersome adventurer types and hostile nobles/armies might reside.

Often there is only one entrance to 'the lair' (or one true and a few heavily trapped false). Consider throwing that out the design window and make many entrances, something more along the lines of an anthill. Party comes in through "A" and the dragon once alerted exits "B" (or C,D,E, ... or Z) and comes in from behind the party. Instead of temple it's a temple complex. Minions upon minions every where once the 'anthill' is disturbed.


Another thought I had was you could drop a lot of those feats the dragon has, such as Critical Focus, Alertness (replace with Skill focus[perception] if you expect your stealth-focused characters to be able to beat a 43 take-ten perception), Cleave and Great Cleave, Improved Sunder -- replace them with feats that make magic more effective. The Dimensional Agility/Assault/Dervish line comes to mind. Quicken Spell and Quicken Spell-like Ability would be extremely useful. (You couldn't use the latter on Dominate Person, unfortunately, but using it on Entangle could be pretty effective. Persistent Spell, Bouncing spell, and Dazing spell would also be excellent choices.


Might I suggest having it in a cavern where they have to dive underwater to fight it (make the trolls into skrags) and then they see the Dragon swimming through the water so they dive up into the air pocket to fight it above and on solid ground...

Only to find out it constantly fills the areas air with deadly gas so they take breath damage if they surface.

Now it becomes a deadly game.

Grand Lodge

Acid Pits.

It will be great terrain for the Dragon to take advantage of.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Okay...my approach

long:

This Wyrm has loot right? Treasure doesn't mean much to the dead (cept the walking dead and sometimes not even then.)

He knows the party is coming. He knows of and about the party. Since he did not want to really fight party directly, don't.

Strike first through intermediaries.

Where does the party sleep? Alone? In a group? In a pocket dimension? Daern's Instant Fortress/Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion? If the party crashes at any inn without serious defenses, a good plan will wipe the party. Does the party use combat buffs? Targeted dispel, wards, Forbiddance, etc...

Have the dragon hire minions. A spare 15th level caster hiting with buffed martial assassins is scary.

As for the dragon...if it comes to a fight he can't avoid...he's smart he would have converted loose cash to permanent inherent bonuses via wish or so on to stack with any other normal stat items. Agree with heavy fortification, smite negation, and spell immunity.

So...base cha 10...+10 for age, +5 for inherent, +6 for headband +5 hd = 36 cha. That should help his spell DCs a bit. You could also bump up his con the same to beef up his breath weapon DCs, hp and fort saves.

Note murky underwater= no flagbearer.

Assuming party will pre-buff with resist/acid immunity. Strip it with targeted dispels. If he knows the party has non-dispellable acid immunity, don't bother with his breath weapon at all...probably his best opener in his completely flooded to the ceiling murky underwater lair is Confusion. With 2 feats on Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus that should be a decent DC 29 Will save. Spell Perfected and Heightened to 7th, it's 32 ( or make it Persistent instead and have the party save twice, taking the lower). Let the party wipe each other out. Confusion bypasses Protection from Evil (per the FAQ)...and it affects the pally too, as his immunity doesn't kick in till 17th.

If he knows the party for some reason doesn't have acid resist/immunity then he should have his miasma as part of his pre-combat prep.

You could build the dragon as an evoker...then have him throw spell perfected chain lightning, 2 of them per round as one is quickened, the second is maximized. As he expects the party to be loaded for acid energy, use everything but that. Or he also has minion casters doing this. Though they will need water breathing and blindsense/echolocation. Still 15d6 plus 90 DC 28 half is okay I suppose at this level.

For cheese, add 3 levels of cleric and take Divine Protection for +Cha (+10) bonus to his saves...extra cheese take 1 level of cross-blooded sorcerer to add 30 damage to each chain lightning (15d6+30+90+30) with 2 saves...some damage may go through.

Another good combat buff is call the void. Really screws casters if they get too close and verbal bardsong If a minion throws Calm Emotions it is another potential fatigue to ping the barbarian...also use the red herring approach. Don't let the dragon be alone, let him use his minions.

So the party novas and slays the green dragon...only it was a minion...and then the real green dragon boss comes forth...only he's a minion too. Meanwhile the real one is leading an attack against the adventurers' town, bank, etc...or maybe that's a minion too.

Other nifty spells:
Hostile Juxtaposition, Greater.
Vampiric Shadow Shield
Symbol of Weakness (with Spell Immunity or tied to Forbidance). Even better have one only visible /triggerred if the party uses Control Water to clear an area :)


One more thought: watch out / have a counter for Chains of Light.

Silver Crusade

Was looking at the suggestions. I really appreciate the input here folks.

Spell combos and the like aren't a huge concern, the party's only spellcasters are a summoner and a cleric. They have no arcane caster aside from the bard (who will likely use bard's escape so I'm thinking of having a spellcaster minion of the dragon d-anchor his butt).

Also I don't want to Ashiel-up the dragon. I do random loot generation and take from the random pile the stuff that the dragon would like to use (like the ring of commanding elementals).

The idea of having multiple green dragons or lesser dragons does appeal somewhat. Also, I can probably get away with some flood troll assassins or something (problem with rogue types is they have difficulty hitting the party, and the party has quite well developed anti-invisibility tactica).


A permanent lessor demi plane to retreat to is good idea.

It can bind a genie and have it use clone on it so that even if they kill him he will come back.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Spook205 wrote:

Was looking at the suggestions. I really appreciate the input here folks.

Spell combos and the like aren't a huge concern, the party's only spellcasters are a summoner and a cleric. They have no arcane caster aside from the bard (who will likely use bard's escape so I'm thinking of having a spellcaster minion of the dragon d-anchor his butt).

Also I don't want to Ashiel-up the dragon. I do random loot generation and take from the random pile the stuff that the dragon would like to use (like the ring of commanding elementals).

The idea of having multiple green dragons or lesser dragons does appeal somewhat. Also, I can probably get away with some flood troll assassins or something (problem with rogue types is they have difficulty hitting the party, and the party has quite well developed anti-invisibility tactica).

Sorry I don't know what you mean by Ashiel up.

Random loot generation? Seriously? Um, wow. Is that what the players have to live with too?

If a CR15 intelligent spell-casting creature hasn't upgraded his gear to stuff he uses, then he deserves to die in that first round to the party ambush. Even if it means he sells useless loot at 1/2 to get what he needs, I mean somehow he survived to his current age in the face of endless waves of adventurers and ketchup right? :)

As for preventing teleport...you did read Forbiddance right? No need for D-Anchor, at least not right off the bat.

And yeah invisibility should not be an issue. By 4rd level invisibility isn't an issue so by 15th definitely so. Not even clouded water (full concealment) should really be an issue, if the party is prepared.

Lantern Lodge

I read in one of the books that Green Dragons are one of the more intellectual of the chromatic dragons and can even be deal with diplomatically.

So what about the adventurers appearing in the lair only to find the Green Dragon hosting an intellectual debate with say a Copper Dragon and even a few fellow professors of various races?

How would the party handle their gate crashing of an intellectual debate convention?
Would they disguise themselves and try to croak the Green Dragon with subterfuge?
Charge straight in?
Talk?

Possibilities.... :)

Silver Crusade

Rerednaw wrote:
Spook205 wrote:

Was looking at the suggestions. I really appreciate the input here folks.

Spell combos and the like aren't a huge concern, the party's only spellcasters are a summoner and a cleric. They have no arcane caster aside from the bard (who will likely use bard's escape so I'm thinking of having a spellcaster minion of the dragon d-anchor his butt).

Also I don't want to Ashiel-up the dragon. I do random loot generation and take from the random pile the stuff that the dragon would like to use (like the ring of commanding elementals).

The idea of having multiple green dragons or lesser dragons does appeal somewhat. Also, I can probably get away with some flood troll assassins or something (problem with rogue types is they have difficulty hitting the party, and the party has quite well developed anti-invisibility tactica).

Sorry I don't know what you mean by Ashiel up.

Random loot generation? Seriously? Um, wow. Is that what the players have to live with too?

If a CR15 intelligent spell-casting creature hasn't upgraded his gear to stuff he uses, then he deserves to die in that first round to the party ambush. Even if it means he sells useless loot at 1/2 to get what he needs, I mean somehow he survived to his current age in the face of endless waves of adventurers and ketchup right? :)

As for preventing teleport...you did read Forbiddance right? No need for D-Anchor, at least not right off the bat.

And yeah invisibility should not be an issue. By 4rd level invisibility isn't an issue so by 15th definitely so. Not even clouded water (full concealment) should really be an issue, if the party is prepared.

Ashiel is the main proponent of 'the DM should spend the treasure set aside to be earned by defeating a monster on equipping the monster.' Essentially treating loot as Monster-WBL. I recognize the arguments for it and why others do it, but it always seems a bit 'cheap' to me. So I don't do it. I find the 'random loot, take the good stuff' method to be a bit more reasonable.

And yeah, the party has to deal with random loot gen in dungeons too.

I did not read Forbiddance since I was only looking at arcane spells. Thanks for pointing it out!

That spell is monumentally useful for a lair spell. The summoner is going to be really cheesed about it though.

The beauty of it is that he has a reason for requiring passwords for admittance since he's LE but his trolls aren't. So there's a good player 'in' for investigating the lair further to try to find it.

In fact it ties in a bit with Secane's suggestion, lets me have some other stuff stomping around and adding complexity. Especially since as an Ancient, the dragon's basically a King-In-The-Forest.


The Dragon converted the gold of his hoard onto a variant Mithral golem. It loses Quickness and its fluid form is instead a humongous pile of coins (and it can remain in that state indefinitely so long as it takes no actions). Its orders are to attack anything that isn't the dragon that tries to take part of the hoard (it surrounds the other coins and treasure while in its coin pile state).

That is how you security. Hoard Golem.

Silver Crusade

Well, the party made first contact with the green dragon's tactics last week.

They fought through two layers of trolls, and the paladin blew a lot of his anti-dragon mojo on wrecking a simulacra the dragon made of himself. Also the Forbiddance effects make the party leery about entering or leaving areas.

The simulacra didn't survive too long though, mostly thanks to the paladin giving a huge bonus to hit and damage against it.

As usual, AC really stacks up poorly against a high level party. Giving the dragon Mirror Image though really made it last longer, especially given the caster level bonus.

I still felt kinda dirty about the way simualcra interacts with dragon age categories though.

This week, the final encounter.

Ancient Green Dragon, Veiled Master, A few Elementals, and no floor, all underwater.

I think the lack of floor is going to be the major problem for the party, ironically enough.


My wyrm green dragon BBEG used a modified spell list that included druid spells. Seemed appropriate for a forest dragon. I gave him a dominate animal sla in addition to dominate person. He had dominated birds and mammals every where as spies. He was nominally the head of the druid grove since it fell within his forest. He could dominate them magically if he felt like it, but his rule ensured the forest would remain and was not challenged. When the party kidnapped his druid lieutenant who seduced an enchanted to dominate a more powerful wizard to do an Apocalypse from the Sky spell (3.x book of vile darkness), the green Dragon dominated soldiers, craftsfolk, wizards, children, families, and animals and sent hundreds of dominated creatures at the fort they built in the wilderness to house the party + followers. Dragon failed to save his lieutenant and they disintegrated her body.

You know what's scary? Birds and splash weapons. Splash weapons don't require proficiency, and even if they do, -4 isn't enough to ruin the tactic. Tiny birds have around Str 1-2, which is to say that 3 or 6 lbs is a light load, and most splash weapons are 1 or 2 lbs at most. A 5 ounce bird CAN carry a 1 lb coconut shaped flask of holy water and then dive bomb a Ravener with it. In a separate one shot where a green Dragon ravener had his bird minions get domination dispelled were convinced by the party druid to help, so they thought of arming them. They got in 20 holy water attacks in the surprise round and about 3/5s hit.

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