I keep seeing the same names in bad threads
How about trying to contibute something other than being snarky. The simple fact of the matter is that the class is broken. Plain and simple. And at such a broken state, the class will flop. Plain and simple. The Avenger is poor martial, the Stalker is barely better than a rogue (and in many ways worse), the Zealot is literally a worse Inquisitor in just about every way, and the Warlock is mediocre at best...
Geez, clickbait much?
*blows raspberry at OP*
congratulations on a mature comment. How about actually contributing? The simple fact of the matter is that the class is horridly broken, and its kinda heart breaking because the class LOOKS cool. It SOUNDS cool. I mean the class IS freaking cool... until you try it and find it rather lack luster...
I just ignore posts that are not constructive.
I'm starting to wonder why they don't just call the class the dilettante and let the player choose/change the specialization to suit the party's needs? Did anyone else get that idea from reading the 'role' portion of the class?
Or rather have the two personalities each have a different heroic specialization... Martial by Day, Warlock by Night...*
Being a "Commoner Unchained" half the time doesn't cut it.* It does really feel like there should be an Alchemy based specialization, it would just fit the theme very well...
As is, I feel the concept would be better served by a multi class archetype that would modify different classes in similar ways, perhaps a code set of abilities across classes and each class getting specific archetype abilities appropriate to it, plus the base classes' remaining underlying abilities.
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Well as it stands right now... the Vigilante looks to be doomed to obscurity unless HUGE changes happen...
The Avenger and Stalker are just... not that great compared to their competition (Ranger, Slayer, Fighter, Brawler, Rogue, ect.) and there is just no real incentive to play one...
I will definitely argue Avenger vs Fighter. I think Avenger makes fighter more obsolete, not the other way around. Avenger is superior to non-archtyped fighters in a lot of ways.
Well true. I will give in Non-combat scenerioes, the Avenger is stronger than a fighter. The fighter though is stronger by and far in pure dungeon crawl combat but that is about it... A well built 2 handed fighter can pretty much 1-2 shot a enemy pretty consistently.
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All around, yeah, I'd say Avenger is better than a Fighter. Better saves, roughly the same number of Feats, way more skills, but lower hit/damage.
That still doesn't make it GOOD.
Oh and when I say non-combat I meant more like... non-dungeon crawly. :P in a more "organic" style campaign (i.e. most of them), the Avenger has the upper hand due to actually being able to do things. But in a pure dungeon crawler though I still feel the fighter eeks out just a bit. But then again, in a pure dungeon crawl, there are VERY FEW things that match the fighter on the martial side...
All around, yeah, I'd say Avenger is better than a Fighter. Better saves, roughly the same number of Feats, way more skills, but lower hit/damage.
That still doesn't make it GOOD.
That is true... a non-archetyped fighter is well known as being "the other rogue". They just lucked out in having archetypes that bandage the problems (Mutagenic Warrior and Lore Warden being the shining examples)
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I am tempted to put my had up here as a person who loves the idea of this class but when crunching the numbers I find it lack lustre..
the concept is awesome but once you have class builds it feels a bit under done.
here is where i think it should go rather than having one Specialization you should have "multiple".. i.e By day he is a social person by night he chooses between either the Avenger or the Warlock each being a different persona (with an optionally differing alignment)
this would allow for a better all around character.
also your talents should be per "persona" sop at second level you choose three one for your social and one for each vigilante persona. when your in the other Personas you loose you other Talents.
\\EDIT
the Social Persona also needs to be a capable character in combat as there are meany situations where you don't have 5 minuets to change and need to be a functioning member of the party.
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I guess the part I'm finding really difficult is why not just make Dual Identity a Feat, or probably a Feat Chain that any and everyone can take?
On one hand, the existence of the Vigilante is one of those things that basically takes away options from everyone else by existing. There are already things like Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and various Illusion-ish style magics. Why not just focus on highlighting those and finding ways to allow skill starved classes, namely the Fighter, Cleric, and Paladin archtypes to pull this off rather than making yet another option that removes flavor options from everyone else?
We really do not need more classes. Not when all the flavor side of it can already be done just fine already.
On one hand, the existence of the Vigilante is one of those things that basically takes away options from everyone else by existing. There are already things like Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and various Illusion-ish style magics. Why not just focus on highlighting those and finding ways to allow skill starved classes, namely the Fighter, Cleric, and Paladin archtypes to pull this off rather than making yet another option that removes flavor options from everyone else?
I still don't understand how it removed options for other classes. People keep saying it, but they still haven't explained how it removes options for other characters.
If it's ONLY going to appeal to a small niche group of players, that's a huge issue of it's own. What game is 100% intrigue? It's like having a skill character that can't do anything in combat...
This is something I believe is going to happen more and more often. We now have 36 base 1-20 classes. This is not even touching on Archtypes and prestige classes. There REALLY isn't anything left that someone can't simulate 'pretty good.'
Now is the TIME for niche characters that get tweaked a little for a specific role. I predict we'll see a lot of these types based on Vigilante and the group from Occult Adventures.
Out of 36+ possible classes, not ALL of them will ever be suitable for every game and every group in every campaign. Sadly Vigilante WILL fall into this one. Having Played Serpent's Skull and looked into Skull and Shackles, Vigilante would SUCK for those. So would many classes.
Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.
What makes you think you can't roleplay these character concepts without using the vigilante?
Balance discussions and criticism is far more often started and continued by people who genuinelly want a class to be cool and balanced than by "minmaxers trying to 'win' the game".
Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes in order to meet a character design you need a specific spells and specific gear and build up to a specific level before it gels the way you want.
I tried for a zorro-type character in 2E one time and considered it a resounding failure. This would have been MUCH cooler for what I tried to do.
Just at first glance... He's good at being secretive. There are a lot of DM's on this board who like to talk about how their BBEGs study their opponents and scry them and learn their tricks... But not THIS guy... Most anti-scrying things are way too expensive to be practical. They last limited amount of time, they use up too many spell slots to get the whole party... and they can't be done at early level. Zorro's secret is blown by the time he gets to 3rd level 'the old way'.
The Avenger (My favorite version) is a full BAB warrior with slightly lower HP but 6+ skills. That's actually pretty cool based on what your character concept may be.
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The Avenger (My favorite version) is a full BAB warrior with slightly lower HP but 6+ skills. That's actually pretty cool based on what your character concept may be.
You know what pisses me off about this?
For the Unchained Monk, having a d8 HD Full BaB class was something that couldn't happen because of the general rule that HD and BaB were inextricably tied.
And the class playtested a little over a month later...is THIS.
I lost my Will save for a general rule they were gonna break ANYWAY?
*Kicks over a sandcastle spitefully*
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On one hand, the existence of the Vigilante is one of those things that basically takes away options from everyone else by existing. There are already things like Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and various Illusion-ish style magics. Why not just focus on highlighting those and finding ways to allow skill starved classes, namely the Fighter, Cleric, and Paladin archtypes to pull this off rather than making yet another option that removes flavor options from everyone else?I still don't understand how it removed options for other classes. People keep saying it, but they still haven't explained how it removes options for other characters.
Because by having set rules on how to have a secret identity, it means that anyone that does not have that class feature can't do it.
Because by having set rules on how to have a secret identity, it means that anyone that does not have that class feature can't do it.On one hand, the existence of the Vigilante is one of those things that basically takes away options from everyone else by existing. There are already things like Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and various Illusion-ish style magics. Why not just focus on highlighting those and finding ways to allow skill starved classes, namely the Fighter, Cleric, and Paladin archtypes to pull this off rather than making yet another option that removes flavor options from everyone else?I still don't understand how it removed options for other classes. People keep saying it, but they still haven't explained how it removes options for other characters.
Except they aren't set rules on how to have a secret identity. It's a class ability that lets you do "having a secret identity" easier. Anyone can still use disguise and bluff checks to have a secret identity.
I guess the part I'm finding really difficult is why not just make Dual Identity a Feat, or probably a Feat Chain that any and everyone can take?
On one hand, the existence of the Vigilante is one of those things that basically takes away options from everyone else by existing. There are already things like Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and various Illusion-ish style magics. Why not just focus on highlighting those and finding ways to allow skill starved classes, namely the Fighter, Cleric, and Paladin archtypes to pull this off rather than making yet another option that removes flavor options from everyone else?
We really do not need more classes. Not when all the flavor side of it can already be done just fine already.
This, so much this.
We don't need a new class that treads over the ground of 20 other base classes across 6 years of game design just to add a quirky option.
That is the very definition of what a feat (or chain) is for. This isn't a class, this is a feat masquerading as the "every" class. PDT needs to get away from this like a hot potato.
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The Avenger (My favorite version) is a full BAB warrior with slightly lower HP but 6+ skills. That's actually pretty cool based on what your character concept may be.You know what pisses me off about this?
For the Unchained Monk, having a d8 HD Full BaB class was something that couldn't happen because of the general rule that HD and BaB were inextricably tied.
And the class playtested a little over a month later...is THIS.
I lost my Will save for a general rule they were gonna break ANYWAY?
*Kicks over a sandcastle spitefully*
I know exactly how you feel. Back in the day there was talk about allowing a Cleric or Paladin to take Weapon Specialization with the Deity's Favored Weapon, or even counting as a lower level Fighter for that only, and Paizo's literal argument was no, we want that to be unique to the Fighter.
Then the Magus came out!
This class is incredible.
Yeah, there is refinement needed,that is why there is a PLAYTEST. Creating threads declaring the class doomed, or broken, a week into the playtest is ridiculous.
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congratulations on a mature comment. How about actually contributing? The simple fact of the matter is that the class is horridly broken, and its kinda heart breaking because the class LOOKS cool. It SOUNDS cool. I mean the class IS freaking cool... until you try it and find it rather lack luster...Geez, clickbait much?
*blows raspberry at OP*
Thanks. I try really hard to be uplifting, much like your clickbait title and gloom-and-doom post lacking any real constructive criticism. I gave it what I consider the deserved response.
Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.
Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
This class is incredible.
Yeah, there is refinement needed,that is why there is a PLAYTEST. Creating threads declaring the class doomed, or broken, a week into the playtest is ridiculous.
If you think the class is awesome and needs no changes, awesome. Have at it.
The majority of us see some major issues that will NEED to be fixed or the class WILL be doomed. The OP may be overly dramatic, but it's a valid question.
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This class is incredible.
Yeah, there is refinement needed,that is why there is a PLAYTEST. Creating threads declaring the class doomed, or broken, a week into the playtest is ridiculous.
I'd like to know what exactly is incredible about this class, other than it's flavor, which can be accomplished with other classes. I do agree it's a little early to write it off though.
Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
This class is incredible.
Yeah, there is refinement needed,that is why there is a PLAYTEST. Creating threads declaring the class doomed, or broken, a week into the playtest is ridiculous.If you think the class is awesome and needs no changes, awesome. Have at it.
The majority of us see some major issues that will NEED to be fixed or the class WILL be doomed. The OP may be overly dramatic, but it's a valid question.
Guess what... Major changes WILL happen, because it is a week into the freaking PLAYTEST...
This class is incredible.
What's incredible about it? Almost all of its class features are just poached from other classes or Bonus Feats.
It is, for the most part, both a boring and currently weak implementation of its concept. While the concept may be cool, an idea alone does not carry a class.
The Avenger (My favorite version) is a full BAB warrior with slightly lower HP but 6+ skills. That's actually pretty cool based on what your character concept may be.You know what pisses me off about this?
For the Unchained Monk, having a d8 HD Full BaB class was something that couldn't happen because of the general rule that HD and BaB were inextricably tied.
And the class playtested a little over a month later...is THIS.
I lost my Will save for a general rule they were gonna break ANYWAY?
*Kicks over a sandcastle spitefully*
It's really not so different from Old Monk.
Old Monk had a natural 3/4 BAB & d8 HD, and could only attack at full BAB while Flurrying.
Avenger Vigilante has a natural 3/4 BAB & d8 HD; it can only attack at full BAB while in Vigilante Persona.
The reason it seems like it's a d8 with full BAB is that Social Persona is so amazingly useless right now and impossible to change out of in any realistic time game-wise that no-one in their right mind would never NOT be in their Vigilante persona.
Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
I just don't see it as an NPC class half the time. Again, just looking at Avenger (haven't weighed the rest yet)... It's still a full BAB 6+ Skill class. Which means even if a fight DOES break out on him, he's better then a lot of the other 'skill monkey' type classes out there. I've played a Rogue and an Oracle (time) and he'd kick both their butts.
He's not the best ever most OP maximized class around, but he's still pretty functional in either form.
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I just don't see it as an NPC class half the time. Again, just looking at Avenger (haven't weighed the rest yet)... It's still a full BAB 6+ Skill class. Which means even if a fight DOES break out on him, he's better then a lot of the other 'skill monkey' type classes out there. I've played a Rogue and an Oracle (time) and he'd kick both their butts. .Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
So we're just pretending an Time Oracle is both a "skill monkey" and a martial class instead of acknowledging the Slayer, Ranger, Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Hunter, and Investigator exist?
Those classes actually fulfill the same role (and better...) and kick ass at the same time.
Likewise if you'd changed your Oracle to Battle it'd be a different story.
"Better off in combat than the Rogue" is like saying "Better at swimming than a quadriplegic". Technically true, but not exactly a compliment.
Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
This class is incredible.
Yeah, there is refinement needed,that is why there is a PLAYTEST. Creating threads declaring the class doomed, or broken, a week into the playtest is ridiculous.If you think the class is awesome and needs no changes, awesome. Have at it.
The majority of us see some major issues that will NEED to be fixed or the class WILL be doomed. The OP may be overly dramatic, but it's a valid question.
Guess what... Major changes WILL happen, because it is a week into the freaking PLAYTEST...
I think what you're not realizing is that many/most classes get all of 1 round of open Playtests.
Generally things are put out for Playtest only when they're considered "mostly done" and have only fine tweaks to make.
It seems that an overwhelming majority of playtesters don't consider the class "mostly done" - the general concept is there, the very, very basic skeleton of the class is there... and that's really about it.
Now, Ultimate Intrigue is slated for a Spring 2016 release.
That means that the window of opportunity to make changes and playtest those changes is relatively small; after all, Paizo pushing off publishing something even a week can translate to potentially months of delays in releasing it.
Therefore, if aspects of the class are noticeably underpowered or even entirely non-functional, it should be made as painfully obvious as soon as possible so they can come up with answers and allow for second or even third rounds of playtests if needed.
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I don't know about everyone, but I WANT to see the Vigilante actually be a thing.
I think it'd make a great "spy" class and fulfill by-design a niche that other classes like the Rogue and Bard have been shoehorned into due to a lack of a class specifically built for espionage, moving unseen in crowds, general skullduggery, etc.
But the problem is, right now, the Social Persona is what WOULD/SHOULD enable that, and it doesn't.
Any way that the Social Persona "accomplishes" the job of being a spy-like character is purely fluff; there aren't any mechanics that should logically & thematically be there that allows it to be that.
Instead, it is literally one-half of the class, and it's entirely empty except for one weak ability that's less effective than taking Skill Focus as a Feat, and an immunity to Scrying while in one Persona over the other.
The other half of the class is a series of weakened versions of already-existing classes.
Is the Avenger better than the Fighter? It depends - it's not nearly as good in combat, although out of Combat it's better, yes.
But, then again, the Slayer and Ranger are ALREADY better than the Fighter outside of Combat and also have nearly as many Feats while ALSO having better Combat tricks.
So, yeah - only 1/2 of this Class is playable, that 1/2 of the Class has to act like the whole Class at the moment, and that half is seriously underpowered compared to everything else it's emulating.
^Yep.
I just don't see it as an NPC class half the time. Again, just looking at Avenger (haven't weighed the rest yet)... It's still a full BAB 6+ Skill class. Which means even if a fight DOES break out on him, he's better then a lot of the other 'skill monkey' type classes out there. I've played a Rogue and an Oracle (time) and he'd kick both their butts. .Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
So we're just pretending an Time Oracle is both a "skill monkey" and a martial class instead of acknowledging the Slayer, Ranger, Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Hunter, and Investigator exist?
Those classes actually fulfill the same role (and better...) and kick ass at the same time.
Likewise if you'd changed your Oracle to Battle it'd be a different story.
"Better off in combat than the Rogue" is like saying "Better at swimming than a quadriplegic". Technically true, but not exactly a compliment.
I also didn't mention the paladin I play... There is also my Sorcerer and two bards (archeologist and Archivist). Sorcerer and Paladin would curbstomp the vigilante, but I think both Bards would lose hard against him. I only mentioned the classes that I actually played with some regularity. I hate trying to make informed comments about classes I haven't actually played. I'm sure there are a lot of them out (30+ full classes and all) that are better then Vigilante. But I also think there are a lot worse. And none seem to have the flavor, though Master Spy is pretty close.
Which is really what I look for in a class. I want something that can do something pretty awesomely... and be 'ok' at the rest. Everyone fits into its niche. For me, Flavor is 90% why I pick a class.
I think there is some rewording and tweaking to make this one better.. but it's well on it's way.
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Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
This class is incredible.
Yeah, there is refinement needed,that is why there is a PLAYTEST. Creating threads declaring the class doomed, or broken, a week into the playtest is ridiculous.If you think the class is awesome and needs no changes, awesome. Have at it.
The majority of us see some major issues that will NEED to be fixed or the class WILL be doomed. The OP may be overly dramatic, but it's a valid question.
Guess what... Major changes WILL happen, because it is a week into the freaking PLAYTEST...
Good, then we agree. So what our YOUR suggestions on what those changes should be? "This class is incredible" really isn't adding to a discussion on what needs changed to make the final product something truly awesome and not "Doomed to Obscurity". It just sounds like your here to complain people aren't worshiping the paper it's printed on.
This class is incredible.
What's incredible about it? Almost all of its class features are just poached from other classes or Bonus Feats.
It is, for the most part, both a boring and currently weak implementation of its concept. While the concept may be cool, an idea alone does not carry a class.
It's incredible because it IS cool- the class feature concepts are unique in a lot of ways, and sure as hell not boring. The issues is, that the mechanics don't get there yet. They don't do what the features need them to do. But there is 6+ months to fix that.
I don't think it's so much as optimistic, as it is realistic that the creative staff will get there.It's just gross honestly that the negative buzzkills on these forums are who Paizo is opening the playtest to. I sure as crap hope, that the majority of play-testers are not the same people who condemn and give up on this class after a week. At least actually play it before you crap on it.
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So you find having class features that are largely nothing but Bonus Feats (Avenger) and class features directly copied from another class (Zealot, half of Warlock, and the Stalker's "Hidden Strike") interesting?
Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
I just don't see it as an NPC class half the time. Again, just looking at Avenger (haven't weighed the rest yet)... It's still a full BAB 6+ Skill class. Which means even if a fight DOES break out on him, he's better then a lot of the other 'skill monkey' type classes out there. I've played a Rogue and an Oracle (time) and he'd kick both their butts.
He's not the best ever most OP maximized class around, but he's still pretty functional in either form.
Take a 12th level warlock in social mode. You honestly thing they are far off an expert? No bombs, no mystic bolts, nothing past a few 1st level spells.
Compare that 12th level warlock in social mode and then compare it to every other PC class. Do you honestly find any other PC class closer than that warlock to an expert? I can't.
This class is incredible.
What's incredible about it? Almost all of its class features are just poached from other classes or Bonus Feats.
It is, for the most part, both a boring and currently weak implementation of its concept. While the concept may be cool, an idea alone does not carry a class.
It's incredible because it IS cool- the class feature concepts are unique in a lot of ways, and sure as hell not boring. The issues is, that the mechanics don't get there yet. They don't do what the features need them to do. But there is 6+ months to fix that.
I don't think it's so much as optimistic, as it is realistic that the creative staff will get there.
Again, you are missing something VERY important here:
Open Playtests DO NOT OCCUR until the final stages of a Class' lifespan and it's considered "almost finished"
This is nowhere NEAR "almost finished".
Yes, the creative staff will probably "get there" - they kinda have to or else they can't publish the book without it being a major embarassment.
The the PROBLEM is that the creative staff should have already "gotten there" up to about 90% completion.
This is not 90% "there"; this is barely 50% "there", and I'm fairly confident that most people looking at this would agree that it's little more than 33% "there"
At BEST this is akin to a "first draft," and "first drafts" are NOT supposed to be what's put out for Open Playtests.
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Good, then we agree. So what our YOUR suggestions on what those changes should be? "This class is incredible" really isn't adding to a discussion on what needs changed to make the final product something truly awesome and not "Doomed to Obscurity". It just sounds like your here to complain people aren't worshiping the paper it's printed on.Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
This class is incredible.
Yeah, there is refinement needed,that is why there is a PLAYTEST. Creating threads declaring the class doomed, or broken, a week into the playtest is ridiculous.If you think the class is awesome and needs no changes, awesome. Have at it.
The majority of us see some major issues that will NEED to be fixed or the class WILL be doomed. The OP may be overly dramatic, but it's a valid question.
Guess what... Major changes WILL happen, because it is a week into the freaking PLAYTEST...
Um... I'm not the one complaining.
I'm calling out the typical snarky BS for not even taking the time to actually play test the class before squatting on it.
I'm kind of tired of that kind of remark, really.
For the most part, actually playing the class isn't needed. The class has already been playtested extensively.
The Inquisitor has existed for a while. No reason to actually playtest the Zealot.
The Fighter has existed even longer along with the many Feats it can grant. No real need to playtest the Avenger.
Sneak Attack has been around a loooooong time. No need to playtest Hidden Strike to say it sucks. Sneak Attack sucks, Hidden Strike is Sneak Attack with d4s. Playtest over.
So you find having class features that are largely nothing but Bonus Feats (Avenger) and class features directly copied from another class (Zealot, half of Warlock, and the Stalker's "Hidden Strike") interesting?
No, That is not what I said at all.
So you find having class features that are largely nothing but Bonus Feats (Avenger) and class features directly copied from another class (Zealot, half of Warlock, and the Stalker's "Hidden Strike") interesting?
I do.
I love the way these bonus feats are BETTER then the Feats themselves.
Signature Weapon (Ex): The avenger vigilante must select
one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when
he gains this talent. He gains Weapon Focus as a bonus
feat for his selected weapon. At 8th level, he also gains
Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat for his selected
weapon. He doesn’t have to meet any of the prerequisites
for these feats.
That's two feats for the price of one. Shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Frankly, I wish some of the base Feats would change like this. whittle down the Feat trees a bit.
Which is better than a Feat...but it's still a Feat. Feats are boring, really.
Especially when even that is considered "too powerful" to the point that they're not planning t make an Extra Vigilante Talent Feat.
For the most part, actually playing the class isn't needed.
I think that pretty much says all anyone needs to know about you.
If you're not willing to even play the freaking class, why are you wasting anyone's time in the playtest feedback forums?
Um... I'm not the one complaining.
I'm calling out the typical snarky BS for not even taking the time to actually play test the class before squatting on it.
Then your complaints are misplaced as I AM playtesting it and other are too. It only take using social mode ONCE to find the class is horribly flawed. Have YOU playtested it before 'calling' people out' for not doing so? If not, you're time might be better spent doing that.
Being a Niche character isn't a bad thing as long as does the niche well.Being niche is fine. Being so niche that you can do anything else isn't. If you're an NPC class part of the time, that's not cool no matter how great you are at your niche.
I just don't see it as an NPC class half the time. Again, just looking at Avenger (haven't weighed the rest yet)... It's still a full BAB 6+ Skill class. Which means even if a fight DOES break out on him, he's better then a lot of the other 'skill monkey' type classes out there. I've played a Rogue and an Oracle (time) and he'd kick both their butts.
He's not the best ever most OP maximized class around, but he's still pretty functional in either form.
Take a 12th level warlock in social mode. You honestly thing they are far off an expert? No bombs, no mystic bolts, nothing past a few 1st level spells.
Compare that 12th level warlock in social mode and then compare it to every other PC class. Do you honestly find any other PC class closer than that warlock to an expert? I can't.
Honestly, I have a hard time seeing the point of the Warlock. Not to say there isn't one, but the mechanic of buying extra spell levels or getting hosed... it has that 'false choice' concept that Pathfinder or 3.x loves so much and I hate ohhhh so much. Giving me a choice of a talent... and making only one possible option almost mandatory is annoying design.
I can't even really think of a character concept that would fit the spellcasting vigilante concept....
Zealot is the same way... but at least it has some amazing flavor with places like Cheliax around. The clerics and paladins working from the shadow in an evil land... THAT has potential, but I still wouldn't play one.
Avenger I really like, and Stalker I could work with... but the other two just aren't for me. But that applies to a LOT of the classes that have been made as well...
On the other hand, I love that they are thinking along the lines of multiple 'types' of Vigilante characters... you could have a whole team of them and they all look and feel different. I approve of that.
For the most part, actually playing the class isn't needed.
I think that pretty much says all anyone needs to know about you.
If you're not willing to even play the freaking class, why are you wasting anyone's time in the playtest feedback forums?
That's a pretty empty argument.
After you've played the game for many years, 3.5 and Pathfinder, know the rules, know the classes, and know how well they play in an actual game due to playing a variety of characters you reach an understanding with the game.
For straight forward and simple classes like the Vigilante you don't need to play one at all to know what it's like. You've already seen and done almost everything it's capable of and you know how it's gonna work out in play.
If the Vigilante was a complex class like the Bard or Witch that would be a different story, but it's not. It's a simple and obviously under performing class.
It only has one specific niche. A campaign where maintaining a secret identity is such an important baseline that you can't simply run it out of disguise.
For the most part, actually playing the class isn't needed.
I think that pretty much says all anyone needs to know about you.
If you're not willing to even play the freaking class, why are you wasting anyone's time in the playtest feedback forums?
He is willing to play the class, as soon as it is worth playing. You dont have to see it hit the table to know there are serious issues. Watching those issues unfold over a 6 hours time frame wont make them go away.
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For the most part, actually playing the class isn't needed.
I think that pretty much says all anyone needs to know about you.
If you're not willing to even play the freaking class, why are you wasting anyone's time in the playtest feedback forums?
I didn't say I was unwilling (I'm setting up one now with my Carrion Crown players).
But with the exception of a few of the Warlock's things (like Mystic Bolt) and, admirably, the majority of the Stalker Talents (even though they still look very weak, they're unique, and seeing them in play will be fun) it's UNNECESSARY.
The class features have already existed for YEARS now, and are used every day by people. I've played several Inquisitors. I know how Inquisitors work.
Therefore, I know an Inquisitor with less spells per day, no Bane or Judgement, and no Solo Tactics (or the Preacher class ability) is basically trash. There is no need to play that class. It's like me telling you that you can have the choice between one thing...and one thing that is objectively worse in several ways, with no noticeable advantages over that thing.
"Try it before you knock it!" isn't a valid response to you saying 'Yeah...I'll go with the better thing, thanks".
Likewise, I have at some point in the past used the Feats or Feat lines granted by the Avenger. They're nice to have...but a Feat is a Feat is a Feat. My opinion on a Feat isn't going to change just because it's attached to a different class unless that class offers some new use for said Feat. Which the class does not. I love Blind-Fight...but Blind-Fight is still Blind-Fight whether it's on a Vigilante, Fighter, Sorcerer, or Commoner. It's just a Feat.
It's not a waste of time to look at an ability or collection of abilities and point out exactly why it needs work.
What IS worthless is coming on a Playtest forum and neither playtesting nor offering ANY FEEDBACK WHATSOEVER, positive or negative, like your are doing.
"This is incredible" is just as worthless as "this is shit". If you have a "This is incredible BECAUSE" I'm all ears, because I can't see anything that makes me want to choose this class over the alternatives.
I did a long rundown of all the abilities in the playtest in my own thread. Please, pull from that, tell me what you disagree with, offer suggestions on what I missed. That would be helpful feedback for the playtest, showing what exactly it is you LIKE about the class in specifics, rather than ragging on people for saying "I don't like this because..." and looking for vapid excuses to attempt to discredit anyone who isn't blindly praising the class with no justification.
For the most part, actually playing the class isn't needed.
I think that pretty much says all anyone needs to know about you.
If you're not willing to even play the freaking class, why are you wasting anyone's time in the playtest feedback forums?
That's a pretty empty argument.
After you've played the game for many years, 3.5 and Pathfinder, know the rules, know the classes, and know how well they play in an actual game due to playing a variety of characters you reach an understanding with the game.
For straight forward and simple classes like the Vigilante you don't need to play one at all to know what it's like. You've already seen and done almost everything it's capable of and you know how it's gonna work out in play.
If the Vigilante was a complex class like the Bard or Witch that would be a different story, but it's not. It's a simple and obviously under performing class.
It only has one specific niche. A campaign where maintaining a secret identity is such an important baseline that you can't simply run it out of disguise.
This is a huge point that gets overlooked and dismissed as "theory-crafting," the 3.x/PF ruleset is 15 years old now. Savvy players have A BUNCH of experience with new content and material. Playtesting is a vital part of working out the kinks of a class or settling on a nuanced power curve. This class isn't refined to the point yet where playtesting is the only way to reveal valuable information.