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Hi, i want to improve my 5 level build. So any tips is wellcome, the idea is to be a Taldorian Human with two falcatas (fluff) the rest is malleable. :)
Without equipment
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Korbis the strong willed
Human - Taldor
Fighter - Weapon Master (Falcata) Archetype
Chaotic Good - Cayden Cailean
STR 20 (+ 2 human + 1 level 4th)
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 7
Defender of the Society
Indomitable Faith
Lvl1 - TWF - WF(Falcata) - WE(Falcata)
Lvl2 - Double slice [Weapon Guard]
Lvl3 - Power Attack [Weapon Training]
Lvl4 - WE(Falcata)
Lvl5 - Iron will [Reliable Strike]
FOR +5 (4+1)
REF +3 (1+2)
WIL +5 (1+1+1+2)
CA: 10 + 2*(dex) + Armour + 1*(trait)
HP: 44 (10+(4*6)+10)
1 Falcata----------
Attack +5BA +5STR +1WF + 1WT = +12/PA +10
Damage 1d8 + 5STR + 2WS + 1WT = 1d8+8 (19-20x3)/PA 1d8+12
Full attack--------
Attack +12 - 4 = +8/+8 1d8+8(19-20x3)/PA +6/+6 1d8+12
Skills:
(2+1)x5=15
Climb [1]+3+5 = +9*
Swim [1]+3+5 = +9*
Ride [1]+3+2 = +6*
Survival [2]+3+1 = +6
Perception [5]+1 = +6
Profession Soldier [5]+3+1 = +9
You're forgetting the penalties for TWF, which are increased by wielding a 1 handed weapon in your off hand, instead of a light weapon.
That's a -4 penalty to both hands attacks.
Edit: Nevermind, now I see it.
With the constraints you want to give it, there's no really good way to optimize it. You're using thr weakest combat style (TWF) with two non-light weapons (further increasing penalties). Basically, you have a recipe for sucking.
I will recommend however, drop power attack and pick up double slice. Otherwise your off-hand only deals half strength damage.
Pick up an Effortless Lace for that offhand Falcata to treat it as a light weapon.
Pick up an Effortless Lace for that offhand Falcata to treat it as a light weapon.
If your GM will allow it this overly good.
I can tell you, as a GM, I strictly don't allow this. It's overpowered for what it does. It was intended to allow players in the Giantslayer Adventure Path an option to use oversized weapons, not so that every TWF can twink his character. However that is what it's become.
Verify with you GM it's availability before you count on using it.
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Pick up an Effortless Lace for that offhand Falcata to treat it as a light weapon.
I didnt know about this item! Thanks! Its perfect! :)
Is there a reason you went with Weapon Master over Two Weapon Warrior? Have you given any thought about how you are going to keep your strength and dex up to keep going with the TWF feats and damage output?
Yes, because the weapon master gets Weapon training at level 3 for the falcatas and the Two weapon fighter is at level 5 but only for full attacks + others.
I think is "better" the weapon master but not the best, :/
The swashbuckler or the daring champion cavalier is better for this. They have dex to hit and damage, precise strike when moving and other tricks. The swashbuckler have improved crit from level 5 on top of weapon training and the cavalier have Challenge and lots of goodies.
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I can tell you, as a GM, I strictly don't allow this. It's overpowered for what it does. It was intended to allow players in the Giantslayer Adventure Path an option to use oversized weapons, not so that every TWF can twink his character. However that is what it's become.
Is this really an issue? It's not as if two weapon fighting is the strongest of fighting styles. The TWF user is already paying double for his weapons, so a cheap lace isn't going to break the economy.
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Also the bump in damage is kind of miniscule, isnt it? Assuming you double up on weapon focus and improve the damage die by a step its about a +1 hit/+1.5 Damage in most cases, right?
In general, yes, though falcata's are basically one-of-a-kind weapons as they provide better total crits than any other weapon in the game (IIRC). I'm not saying this build is overpowered or anything, just that unlike using say, longsword+longsword instead of shortsword+shortsword, the difference is a fair bit more than one point of damage, as the falcata provides an unmatched 4 points of crits (compared to a mace's 1 point, a longsword or battleaxe 2 points, or a pick or rapiers 3 points).
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Another thing to keep in mind that you don't necessarily need to TWF with them every round. If you're having trouble landing hits, forego the extra attacks from TWF and just do your normal allowance of attacks from BAB; holding or even attacking with the second weapon does not trigger TWF penalties unless you declare that you are using TWF rules elements to get extra attacks. You could even have the two weapons enhanced slightly different, maybe one of them as a defending weapon for an AC boost and the other strictly offensive.
For sure! :) But i want to take two weapon rend at some point for... spectacle. *CHOF *CHOF* ***RAF*** <<PUBLIC CHEERING>>
Is this really an issue? It's not as if two weapon fighting is the strongest of fighting styles. The TWF user is already paying double for his weapons, so a cheap lace isn't going to break the economy.
I can tell you, as a GM, I strictly don't allow this. It's overpowered for what it does. It was intended to allow players in the Giantslayer Adventure Path an option to use oversized weapons, not so that every TWF can twink his character. However that is what it's become.
Yes. Fight with a light weapon like the style intends or eat the penalties.
Yes. Fight with a light weapon like the style intends or eat the penalties.Is this really an issue? It's not as if two weapon fighting is the strongest of fighting styles. The TWF user is already paying double for his weapons, so a cheap lace isn't going to break the economy.
I can tell you, as a GM, I strictly don't allow this. It's overpowered for what it does. It was intended to allow players in the Giantslayer Adventure Path an option to use oversized weapons, not so that every TWF can twink his character. However that is what it's become.
You didn't really answer the question. Why is this an issue? Sure, "the style" gives extra penalty for using two one-handed weapons. The lace removes that penalty. The item is not overpowered, because TWF is still weaker than just using a two-hander.
Seriously, try making two fighters. Let one two-hand his falcata. The second, a TWF will need two falcata's, and at least one effortless lace, and a ton of feats, and a full round action to be effective, and a high dex to get the two weapon fighting feats, etc..
Of course, I was never a big fan of the extra heavy penalties for one-handers anyway. You can probably find more examples of using two one-handers in fiction than using one-hand and light. It's an iconic fighting style that could use a little more support.
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Does the Effortless Lace really do anything to help this?
When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon for 24 hours, the ribbon's magic permanently merges with the weapon, reducing the attack roll penalty incurred by a wielder who is smaller than the weapon's intended wielder by 2 (to a minimum penalty of 0).
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon's intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.
Once an effortless lace's abilities have been conveyed to a weapon, the ribbon must remain attached to the weapon or its effects end immediately, its magic is permanently lost, and it is reduced to worthless cloth. Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.
Two-weapon fighting as a fighting style is not a feat (the feat only reduces penalties and has no mention of light weapons,) nor is it a spell or special weapon ability.
So, the Effortless Lace allows you to use Weapon Finesse with the falcata, but doesn't reduce the attack penalty for two-wielding them.
Effortless Lace effectively makes the weapon light for how it interacts with TWF feat. A light weapon in the off hands means you only suffer a -2 instead of a -4 penalty.
And I agree with Kestral. TWF is better than two handing, but you need a method of adding big static damage modifiers to it. Slayer and Ranger (once you have Instant Enemy) are very good at this. TWF usually fails to be as good as a two handed weapon because of the split dex/strength requirements and the need to enchant two weapons. With the right abilities like Favored Enemy/Studied Enemy/Smite it becomes incredibly deadly. Far outstripping what a two-hander can do. But it's not good for every class. Or even most classes. There are a few who it can be really good for though.
Now, with the proper selections you can be a completely dex dependent TWF which helps substantially.
It's really that the barbarian is going to charge pounce from enemy to enemy and one shot them.
Every melee characters moves into position and gets a single attack. The barbarian pounces in and finishes them off, because Pathfinder teaches us to always focus fire. At least that's what I always did. Between a pouncing barbarian's full damage, and a single attack from another character, it was usually sufficient to kill any creature.
He might not hit the absolute hardest, but will deal more damage over the entire combat than pretty much anyone because his damage doesn't drop while moving.
It is also important to note the Daring Champion Cavalier only beats on the barbarian when both challenge and precise strike are active. Precise strike can be negated with concealment, and challenge is a fairly limited resource (although as a daring champion chain challenge really allows you to go crazy).
TWF is actually mechanically the strongest style, barring a ton of natural attacks.
The issue is supporting it-- it doubles your gold costs and is, without hoops, two attribute dependent. But if you can jump those hoops and rock it on a class with high static damage bonuses, like the Slayer or Cavalier, it will outdamage two-handed fighting any day of the week.
Can you show me the build?
Aren't those hoops a pretty big deal? It reminds me of that thread where the DM gave way too much gold and so a player made a super golem that outperformed the entire team.
TWF is actually mechanically the strongest style, barring a ton of natural attacks.
The issue is supporting it-- it doubles your gold costs and is, without hoops, two attribute dependent. But if you can jump those hoops and rock it on a class with high static damage bonuses, like the Slayer or Cavalier, it will outdamage two-handed fighting any day of the week.
Bahahahaha! Good one.
Oh wait, you're serious.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
The THF is better than TWF thing is a bit old guys with stuff like dex to damage and daring champ It is not as clear as it used to be. There is still good reasons for going THF but if damage is all there are now THF options that is better. So look at the numbers or belive somebody that did it instead of behaving like last years Wisdom is still wise.
The THF is better than TWF thing is a bit old guys with stuff like dex to damage and daring champ It is not as clear as it used to be. There is still good reasons for going THF but if damage is all there are now THF options that is better. So look at the numbers or belive somebody that did it instead of behaving like last years Wisdom is still wise.
That's why I want to see the build. The problem with dex-to-damage is that you have to pay for it. Either with gold or with feats. The non-dex-to-damage guy is therefore going to have more gold and feats. Unless you are an unchained rogue, but he didn't mention those.
Effortless Lace effectively makes the weapon light for how it interacts with TWF feat. A light weapon in the off hands means you only suffer a -2 instead of a -4 penalty.
The TWF feat says zero about light weapons. While it's true that a light weapon in the off hand only takes a -2, Effortless Lace does not make the weapon light, it is merely treated as light for a number of specific purposes. TWF is not one of those purposes.
Upon further research, this has been discussed before: RAI is that Effortless Lace reduces TWF penalties, RAW is that it doesn't.
Is there a reason you went with Weapon Master over Two Weapon Warrior? Have you given any thought about how you are going to keep your strength and dex up to keep going with the TWF feats and damage output?
The weapon master has more damage potential during full round attacks which is where TWF works best anyway. As for dex you only need to get it up high enough to qualify for the feats you want. Otherwise strength should have priority, unless someone is using a dex based build.
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TWF has always been better at pure damage than THF if you can get all the gold/feats/class abilities you need to support it.
THF's big advantage has always been doing very solid damage without needing a ton of feats, synergistic class abilities, or paying for two different weapons. While the TWF is still working down their feat chain, the THF is free to grab whatever other feats they want. Plus there are other little bonuses like better standard action attacks and being better vs. DR.
Effortless Lace effectively makes the weapon light for how it interacts with TWF feat. A light weapon in the off hands means you only suffer a -2 instead of a -4 penalty.The TWF feat says zero about light weapons. While it's true that a light weapon in the off hand only takes a -2, Effortless Lace does not make the weapon light, it is merely treated as light for a number of specific purposes. TWF is not one of those purposes.
Upon further research, this has been discussed before: RAI is that Effortless Lace reduces TWF penalties, RAW is that it doesn't.
The lace treats a weapon as a light weapon.
PER RAW a light weapon in your off-hand takes a lesser penalty than a one-handed weapon.
The rule is in the TWF rules in the combat chapter.
First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
The off-hand weapon being light drops the penalties by two. The TWF feat drop off-hand penalty by another 6 so instead of -10 you are dropped to a -8 for using a light weapon in the off-hand. Then with the feat taking 6 more from the penalty you end up at -2 with the TWF feat.
Also the effortless lace say " as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons."
The combat chapter shows how light weapons and twf(the feat) interact. The feat not repeating the information is a nonfactor unless you can prove feats must repeat information that is already mentioned.
You can't use effortless lace in PFS anyway so the RAW doesn't matter as much as the RAI.
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So this is the characater changed... the problem is that not have enough feats :(. I took a 1 fighter level dip for a feat. Mmm maybe for two weapons this is not the best build and take a lot of levels to enjoy it.. at level 1 is only +2 attack 1d8 with one Falcata and the Challenge is very limited (at least in a single combat can work for every enemy with the order of the flame and chaining a lot of free challenge (at the cost of AC))
Human
Cavalier Daring champion Order of the Flame/ Fighter
Order of the flame
STR 10
DEX 20 (+1 lvl 4th + 2 human)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14
Reckless
Indomitable Faith
1.Cav1 - WF(Falcata) - WE(Falcata) [Champions Finesse, Teamwork feats (not idea what to take), Challenge 1/day]
2.Fig1 - Slashing Grace
3.Cav2 - TWF [Foolhardy Rush]
4.Cav3 - [Nimble]
5.Cav4 - Double slice [Panache and deeds, Challenge 2/day]
FOR +7 (4+2+1)
REF +7 (1+1+5)
WIL +2 (1+1)
AC: 10 + 5 (dex) + Armour + 1 (nimble)
HP: 43 (10+(4*6)+9)
1 Falcata----------
Attack +5BA +5DEX + 1WF = +11
Damage 1d8 + 5DEX = 1d8+5 (19-20x3)
Full attack--------
Attack +11 - 4 = +7/+7 1d8+5(19-20x3)
Skills:
(4+1)x4+(2+1)= 23
Climb [1]+3 = +4*
Swim [1]+3 = +4*
Ride [1]+3+5 = +9*
Survival [1]+3 = +4
Perception [5] = +5
Profession Gladiator [4]+3 = +7
Intimidate [5]+3+2 = +10
Acrobatics [5]+5+3+1 = +14*
Also the effortless lace say " as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons."
The combat chapter shows how light weapons and twf(the feat) interact. The feat not repeating the information is a nonfactor unless you can prove feats must repeat information that is already mentioned.
I don't really agree. The penalty to having a non-light off-hand weapon is not a feat. It's not a spell. It's not a special weapon ability.
So why would it benefit from the effortless lace? To me, it's like saying that the monks' "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level" also applies to his CMD because both are mentioned in the combat chapter.
RAW the effortless lace does not make it a light weapon. It is treated as a light weapon for determining whether it can be used with:
Weapon Finesse
Feats that can be used with light weapons
Spells that can be used with light weapons
Special weapon abilities that can be used with light weapons
And that's it. Fighting with two weapons is not a feat. And even if it was (or the effortless lace's description included "Rule" in the list of things affected, the lace only applies to determining whether you can use it, not what modifiers you use.
So to me that's a big and obvious no-no, two times over.
Yup. And unlike your laughter I've done the math.
(this one's for you Wraithstrike)The problem with the math is that it assumes everyone is always going to get full attacks. Full attacks are not the norm. They happen much more rarely than standard attacks. Even if you're in position to make a full attack, the baddie will die before you complete it, and unless you have another baddie within a 5' step, you're done.
You did mention classes with a large static bonus, so maybe that's enough to bring it up, but I tend to doubt it.
After thinking about it some, if you could find a way to TWF and Pounce, that would be huge... In my experience I had a Barbarian that who used 3 natural attacks, but even with pounce I found I generally got better results using a falchion. So I don't know, but I would be interested in seeing the build.
You can stop at any level you want. Pick your best breakpoint if you want. My builds usually don't go above 12 as I rarely get to play above that level.
That would be nice for the PFS people.
Is Pounce even required in a world where Quick Runner's Shirts exist?
Is Pounce even required in a world where Quick Runner's Shirts exist?
Well since quick runner's shirts are once per day that's only once per fight at most. Also not all campaigns allow that item, PFS and home games that feel if PFS bans it they should too.
Is Pounce even required in a world where Quick Runner's Shirts exist?Well since quick runner's shirts are once per day that's only once per fight at most. Also not all campaigns allow that item, PFS and home games that feel if PFS bans it they should too.
PFS banned QRS? I must be out of the loop, when did that happen?