So, from how I'm reading the rules, is it possible, at 13th level, to hide in plain sight, change to your civilian form and nobody would be able to tell the difference RAW?
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Do we really want to try to sell Superman as an even remotely realistic figure? The only reason his story works is because the GM keeps forgetting to roll Perception checks for the NPCs. Actually, I'm not sure the GM even knows Perception can counter Disguise at all.
...does realism have anything to do whatsoever with this conversation?
If both Batman and Bruce Wane were always visibly hanging out with the same group of people (aka the other players), but were never seen at the same time then someone would get suspicious. That means that the vigilante's social persona simply can't hang around the rest of the party in most circumstances since it would cause suspicion.Yeah, it would totally be like if Clark Kent was always seen hanging around with Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. That would totally give away his secret ID!
Lol! Well, at least Lois Lane and Jimmy aren't always trying to hang around superman, they just need to be saved all the time. It is (hopefully) different with an adventuring party.
It does make for interesting Bluff checks when the party has to try and pretend they don't know the social guise.
what if they don't
Problem is as has been mentioned before The characters from comics this is based on do not lose there powers when there in there civilian identity heck when you get down to it there Personas arent even that diffrent (Certainly less diffrent than one that would make someones allighment change even slightly).
Also duel identitys only work in the comics because A They come up with a reason time after time after time for the hero to use there ability without being seen and/or having a distraction so they can change identity. and B comic villans tend to run with the stupid ball when it comes to hero identities.
Yup.. and we are looking into this issue as well. There is certainly a desire to make the different identities a bit more than a cosmetic shift, but we may have put the line a little bit further than was necessary to get the difference we wanted. This is why we playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Bruce Wayne ducks under the table to hide... and then Batman comes out from underneath it SECONDS later. No masked hero worth their salt takes five minutes to change into the disguise.
I've skipped around a bit here admittedly, but I haven't seen anyone point out the 'donning armor' rules.
It takes any paladin or fighter worth his salt over 4 minutes (with help) to get into that heavy armor. Even if it's rogueish type character who is going from noble clothing to leather armor it STILL takes ONE minute...
Unless you plan on having Don Diego wandering around a fancy dress dinner for the local lord in his full combat Zorro gear... There really HAS to be a time limit to get into 'full hero mode'. Whether this class existed or not...
I've had many a problem with my Paladin-king being attacked at night or during a festival or some OTHER place where full armor and weapons were frowned upon.
I see the Dual identity along the idea of prepared spells. Tonight I'm going to the Ball, I'll need to be in the Wayne persona... Then if we find any clues, I'll need to be Batman. It's not really designed for wayne getting ambushed anymore then Wizards who prepared comprehend languages and knock are underpowered when they're attacked in surprise.
So basically I don't see the time limit as creating rules... so much as enforcing the lesser used ones that are already there.
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Problem is as has been mentioned before The characters from comics this is based on do not lose there powers when there in there civilian identity heck when you get down to it there Personas arent even that diffrent (Certainly less diffrent than one that would make someones allighment change even slightly).
Also duel identitys only work in the comics because A They come up with a reason time after time after time for the hero to use there ability without being seen and/or having a distraction so they can change identity. and B comic villans tend to run with the stupid ball when it comes to hero identities.
Yup.. and we are looking into this issue as well. There is certainly a desire to make the different identities a bit more than a cosmetic shift, but we may have put the line a little bit further than was necessary to get the difference we wanted. This is why we playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerBruce Wayne ducks under the table to hide... and then Batman comes out from underneath it SECONDS later. No masked hero worth their salt takes five minutes to change into the disguise.I've skipped around a bit here admittedly, but I haven't seen anyone point out the 'donning armor' rules.
It takes any paladin or fighter worth his salt over 4 minutes (with help) to get into that heavy armor. Even if it's rogueish type character who is going from noble clothing to leather armor it STILL takes ONE minute...
Unless you plan on having Don Diego wandering around a fancy dress dinner for the local lord in his full combat Zorro gear... There really HAS to be a time limit to get into 'full hero mode'. Whether this class existed or not...
I've had many a problem with my Paladin-king being attacked at night or during a festival or some OTHER place where full armor and weapons were frowned upon.
I see the Dual identity along the idea of prepared spells. Tonight I'm going to the Ball, I'll need to...
If the Vigilante had a class ability that gave them and their gear a permanent Glamered effect that isn't detectable with magic, just like they have something like that for their alignment, then that problem goes away.
I still think Endurance is underrated because of its ability to circumvent the armor sleeping issue, but if I continue down this line I'm worried that guy over there will throw things at me.
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I still think Endurance is underrated because of its ability to circumvent the armor sleeping issue, but if I continue down this line I'm worried that guy over there will throw things at me.
It's a nice class feature for Rangers, and is a prerequisite for some nice feats, just asking me to take it over just wearing a chain shirt to bed, or getting the comfort enchantment is a bit much.
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Actually, I was wrong. It's not unobserved. It's UNAWARE.
Having an enemy be completely unaware of you is INCREDIBLY difficult.
It doesn't even function if you're invisible or something after they've initially noticed you...they still know you're there (and are thus aware of your presence, if not the exact location).
All the Appearances and Vengeance Strike rely on the enemy being unaware of you, so they don't work unless you're the one initiating combat FROM Stealth.
At least if he had his class abilities he could Hide in Plain Sight (Stalker) or turn invisible (Warlock and Zealot) in the midst of a crowd before anyone saw him in the first place and utilize them that way (once...), but as-is? Not gonna happen except in some EXTREME corner cases that may as well not exist for the frequency they'll appear.
....Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you....
Being invisible gives you the opportunity to make a stealth check and, at a minimum, a +10 to that attempt. So if they "know" you are there, they can be made to be unaware of you fairly easily if you are invisible.
That bumps it from "useless" to "next to useless" though that wording is kind of nonsensical (they're obviously aware of you if you're invisible...there's even a flat DC 20 check to know you're around if not your location, and you can be attacked).
There are feats and/or spells to make pretty much all the negatives of sleeping in armor go away. I don't recall ever experiencing a king balking at Paladins coming to events in their armor, it's just accepted. Wizards also rarely have an actual issue because they default to having combat-useful things prepared and only rarely aren't prepared for combat. And nobody can look at them and tell what they've prepared.
Basically, these other classes have ways around their problems. Where's the Vigilante Bed of Iron?
It would probably be the same Bed of Iron...
Takes a while to get those feats and spells though. And really it depends on how you play. I've rarely had a DM balk at it, but I've always had 'casual time' and 'fighting time' for my characters. If he's hanging around town or doing some shopping or lounging at the bar... he PROBABLY isn't wearing full Plate with a dozen weapons hanging off it. It's bitten him a few times, but them's the breaks...
And the idea of strangers walking into a king's presence armed to the teeth... Unless he called for them and TOLD them to come prepared to go out on a mission? That SHOULD be a rarity. There are protocols and all.
It's really why the rules have things in it for 'stealthing' weapons up your sleeves or hidden sheathes...
Again, Vigilante won't be awesome in EVERY game and EVERY group...and really it doesn't feel like PFS concept, but there are enough out there that can make this really work well. I'm pretty excited about it.
Bruce Wayne ducks under the table to hide... and then Batman comes out from underneath it SECONDS later. No masked hero worth their salt takes five minutes to change into the disguise.I quite frankly don't recall ANY of the writers giving Batman THAT much of an insta-change. Flash, Superman, yes, because they literally operate at superspeed, and the latter stores his costume literally in his ring. And of course Wonder Woman does her twirl thing. :)
Doctor Fate, on the other hand was one hero whose powers were ALL in the helmet.. (that, and a real jerkass Lord of Order)
Agreed.
It was closer back in the 80's when he wore spandex underneath his tux, but with the 'modern' concept that he's always armored... it takes him a while to get dressed.
phantom1592: There are plenty of ways around the 'donning armor' rules to quicken the time or mitigate it. This isn't the case for swapping identities.
An simple armored coat is a move action, Glamered allows you to appear to be in normal clothes and Restful lets you sleep in armor. The trait Steel Skin cuts the time to don in 1/2.
No matter WHAT you do, you're locked into 5 minutes from levels 1-8...
phantom1592: There are plenty of ways around the 'donning armor' rules to quicken the time or mitigate it. This isn't the case for swapping identities.
An simple armored coat is a move action, Glamered allows you to appear to be in normal clothes and Restful lets you sleep in armor. The trait Steel Skin cuts the time to don in 1/2.
No matter WHAT you do, you're locked into 5 minutes from levels 1-8...
Yeah... but those options suck.
Armored coat is pretty weak armor, Glamered is pretty expensive for what you get as is Restful... Those arent' likely to show up for quite a few levels, and by then most players pick something more useful. There are better traits for those two slots...
I've yet to see a party where everyone has taken even some of these by choice. Maybe if they found it in the loot pile, but they wouldn't have spent their money on it. Most people just put on the armor the standard way, and don't go into a knowingly dangerous situation for at least 5 minutes.
Keep in mind, we haven't seen if they have any cool feats or items or anything that will help this. I just don't think (from a role playing standpoint) that 5 minutes to don your combat disguise is any worse then anyone else going from fancy party to full plate. The only thing here is that the average fighters and paladins aren't classes with the idea of 'going to parties' is expected. But if the DO... they shouldn't be wearing armor.
It's really a problem with the 'round' system here. 5 minutes of ducking out during an attack really shouldn't be that big of a deal story wise. MECHANICALLY it's 50 stinking rounds and battles rarely last a whole minute.
If people feel so strongly about it, maybe lower that Quick Change ability. That lets you change as a full round action with a potential of blowing his secret.
In Know Direction they have mentioned that you might not lose all your talents anymore, and instead you'll more likely have to just be careful about when you use those abilities.
phantom1592: There are plenty of ways around the 'donning armor' rules to quicken the time or mitigate it. This isn't the case for swapping identities.
An simple armored coat is a move action, Glamered allows you to appear to be in normal clothes and Restful lets you sleep in armor. The trait Steel Skin cuts the time to don in 1/2.
No matter WHAT you do, you're locked into 5 minutes from levels 1-8...
Yeah... but those options suck.
Armored coat is pretty weak armor, Glamered is pretty expensive for what you get as is Restful... Those arent' likely to show up for quite a few levels, and by then most players pick something more useful. There are better traits for those two slots...
I've yet to see a party where everyone has taken even some of these by choice. Maybe if they found it in the loot pile, but they wouldn't have spent their money on it. Most people just put on the armor the standard way, and don't go into a knowingly dangerous situation for at least 5 minutes.
Keep in mind, we haven't seen if they have any cool feats or items or anything that will help this. I just don't think (from a role playing standpoint) that 5 minutes to don your combat disguise is any worse then anyone else going from fancy party to full plate. The only thing here is that the average fighters and paladins aren't classes with the idea of 'going to parties' is expected. But if the DO... they shouldn't be wearing armor.
It's really a problem with the 'round' system here. 5 minutes of ducking out during an attack really shouldn't be that big of a deal story wise. MECHANICALLY it's 50 stinking rounds and battles rarely last a whole minute.
If people feel so strongly about it, maybe lower that Quick Change ability. That lets you change as a full round action with a potential of blowing his secret.
Suck: Really? if you're in a game where armor is some situation is frowned upon, seems awesome and cheap. Same with weapons. Comfort for always clean armor, acts as cold weather gear, sleep in it and no minuses from heat. Again, seems cheap.
Taken by choice: You most never be ambushed in your sleep then. Must heavy armor people I know would rather not take double digits off their AC to rest. They also don't want to do that for some party either.
don't go into a knowingly dangerous situation for at least 5 minutes: And RIGHT there is the issue. Much of the time, you don't know when danger is coming. An attack during a party. Diplomacy breaks down. Assassination. Raid. ect. I've seen PLENTY of social situations where combat breaks out and even my playtest vigilante (level 3) has run into it.
cool feats or items: I can't comment of things not in the playtest. I can only say how much the time limit SUCKS. The armor guy has options I can look at to fix the issue. Not so for the poor, poor vigilante.
5 minutes: It's an issue in both places just more pronounced in combat.
Quick Change: Preferably there is multiple ways to fix this so people can pick the way right for them. A talent, feat, spell, start the clad feature at 1st.
Suck: Really? if you're in a game where armor is some situation is frowned upon, seems awesome and cheap. Same with weapons. Comfort for always clean armor, acts as cold weather gear, sleep in it and no minuses from heat. Again, seems cheap.
Comfort is 5000g, Glamered needs a 10th level caster... That gold could gain other more... 'always on' abilities then those. At least at low levels, my Paladin king is 15th level right now, and he actually IS currently getting glamered put on his armor. So it has it's uses, but I don't see it showing up until the characters are high enough to have reached their 'forever armor' and not spend that much everytime they kill the newest bad guy with the next step up on the armor tree...
Taken by choice: You most never be ambushed in your sleep then. Must heavy armor people I know would rather not take double digits off their AC to rest. They also don't want to do that for some party either.
Oh yeah... He was ambushed a few times... He took to wearing his chain mail pajamas when he slept. He lost some AC, but was glad when he was attacked. Still, when he went to upgrade there were better things to spend the limited funds on.
As for parties... if it's frowned upon to wear armor and weapons to a place... it is REALLY frowned upon to wear magically hidden armor and weapons. It just takes a risk up a few notches to go that route.
don't go into a knowingly dangerous situation for at least 5 minutes: And RIGHT there is the issue. Much of the time, you don't know when danger is coming. An attack during a party. Diplomacy breaks down. Assassination. Raid. ect. I've seen PLENTY of social situations where combat breaks out and even my playtest vigilante (level 3) has run into it.
I guess the thought process is preparation. Anyone unarmored, Any casters prepared for diplomacy days, will all be screwed during the ambushes. All those spies and rogues who 'sleight of handed' weapons finally get a chance to shine. 'Social' guys aren't meant to be up-front and center during combat. Throwing ambushes in places like that are challenges to overcome. It's a lot like Bards on the front lines... Social Vigilante's still at least 3/4 BAB and proficient in martial weapons they can grab from a guard or something... They aren't helpless and still better then a lot of other classes in ambushed mode.
It sucks for the Vigilantes caught in the wrong mode... but it sucks for everyone who went in expecting one thing and ending up doing something else.
It wouldn't break my heart to see them tweak things around and balance the modes out... but I definitely want to keep the flavor of having both modes and the idea of each 'face' doing something different.
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@phantom1592
Are there seriously any casters that don't prep a couple of combat spells even when not expecting trouble? Seems like one of those things that just doesn't happen in play except once in a blue moon.
As for unarmored fighter types, they still have all of their offensive capabilities so long as they have access to their weapon. They usually keep most of their capabilities with access to any weapon whatsoever, so long as they weren't built to be dependent on a specific weapon. Many of them still have a good chunk of their defensive capabilities too without any armor on. Their class abilities keep them alive 24/7. The only difference between a martial in pajamas and a martial in fullplate is that the pajama martial has a lower AC. That's it. The pajama martial doesn't suddenly forget how to power attack when they are out of their heavy armor.
Social guys can't go into melee? Really? Every single 3/4 BAB class with a social bent can be built for melee just fine. Bards, the classic social class, work better as an archer but still are perfectly serviceable with power attack, a longsword and a couple of buffs to keep the bard's attack bonus up. They don't play like experts with a suboptimal feat choice like vigilantes do. No other classes have this problem where they are expected to walk around for a large chunk of the time with most of their class features turned off. Everyone else can still switch from friendly happy social mode to murderhobo mode within a very short time. Usually, that time is however long it takes for initiative to pass to them i.e. they are capable combatants all the time with no warning needed. See: Most caster types, Most martial types that aren't build with a particular weapon in mind.
@phantom1592
Are there seriously any casters that don't prep a couple of combat spells even when not expecting trouble? Seems like one of those things that just doesn't happen in play except once in a blue moon.
Depends on their level. Most people seems to look at classes as level 12s with full WBL in the perfect setting...
Our games start at level one and things are rarely optimal. Those early levels can be ROUGH when you have to chose what spells you prep and what you plan on encountering that day.
Also having 'a couple combat spells' don't always get you very far.
Social guys can't go into melee? Really? Every single 3/4 BAB class with a social bent can be built for melee just fine. Bards, the classic social class, work better as an archer but still are perfectly serviceable with power attack, a longsword and a couple of buffs to keep the bard's attack bonus up. They don't play like experts with a suboptimal feat choice like vigilantes do. No other classes have this problem where they are expected to walk around for a large chunk of the time with most of their class features turned off. Everyone else can still switch from friendly happy social mode to murderhobo mode within a very short time. Usually, that time is however long it takes for initiative to pass to them i.e. they are capable combatants all the time with no warning needed. See: Most caster types, Most martial types that aren't build with a particular weapon in mind.
They may lose a lot of their class abilities... but that's not all they have. They still have all their normal feats. Vigilante's are just as capable of grabbing a longs sword and using their Power Attack with their 'odd level' Feats or anything else they want as well. Even in social mode.
I have had MANY characters who for RP purposes or for goals that weren't relevant during the ambush had Feats and skills and class abilities that... DON"T get used that day.
A class doesn't need EVERY feat, and EVERY ability to be useful at any given time. All those Skill Focus' and Ultimate mercy and even things like BLeeding Critical don't help if they don't come up... or as often in my case face enemies that 'don't bleed'...
Low levels is exactly when you expect to just prep combat stuff and only combat stuff. Those are the levels where the 5 Cha Barbarian with no ranks in Diplomacy can make certain Diplomacy check DCs, you don't NEED to prep any special spells for social encounters.
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phantom1592: There are plenty of ways around the 'donning armor' rules to quicken the time or mitigate it. This isn't the case for swapping identities.
An simple armored coat is a move action, Glamered allows you to appear to be in normal clothes and Restful lets you sleep in armor. The trait Steel Skin cuts the time to don in 1/2.
No matter WHAT you do, you're locked into 5 minutes from levels 1-8...
Yeah... but those options suck.
Armored coat is pretty weak armor, Glamered is pretty expensive for what you get as is Restful... Those arent' likely to show up for quite a few levels, and by then most players pick something more useful. There are better traits for those two slots...
I've yet to see a party where everyone has taken even some of these by choice. Maybe if they found it in the loot pile, but they wouldn't have spent their money on it. Most people just put on the armor the standard way, and don't go into a knowingly dangerous situation for at least 5 minutes.
Keep in mind, we haven't seen if they have any cool feats or items or anything that will help this. I just don't think (from a role playing standpoint) that 5 minutes to don your combat disguise is any worse then anyone else going from fancy party to full plate. The only thing here is that the average fighters and paladins aren't classes with the idea of 'going to parties' is expected. But if the DO... they shouldn't be wearing armor.
It's really a problem with the 'round' system here. 5 minutes of ducking out during an attack really shouldn't be that big of a deal story wise. MECHANICALLY it's 50 stinking rounds and battles rarely last a whole minute.
If people feel so strongly about it, maybe lower that Quick Change ability. That lets you change as a full round action with a potential of blowing his secret.
The problem is, even if the fighter isn't in armor HE STILL HIS ABILITIES. The paladin doesn't need to worry about suddenly not being able to smite because he forgot to put his pants on. The Ranger doesn't suddenly forget how to hit certain things he has a particulair distaste for because he didn't wear his lucky boots...
The Avenger can potentially lose ALL HIS CLASS ABILITIES AND HIS NORMAL FEATS. Yes, he can potentially even lost his basic feats. He could actually end up even farther behind a basic Warrior his level. Why? Because what happens if you used a bonus feat to cover a basic pre-req (say... improved trip)... when your in your "social guise" you no longer meet the pre-reqs of any other feat you got the requires improved trip... so in others words you could potentially lose Greater Trip which lets say you used your normal level feat to get... You can actually end up with less than normal feats in social guise...
THAT is what I mean by this class is broken...
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I think it is presumptious to say that everyone who disagrees with you is flat out "looking at it the wrong way".
The problem that everyone else has with the 5 minute change time is the following - when you are playing your vigilante, you have to make a choice between one of the two:
1. Not using a large chunk of your class features in a situation that makes sense thematically for you to be using
2. Becoming almost completely incapable of reacting to new developments without a hideously large amount of warning time.
And yes, I would describe 5 minutes of doing nothing as hideously large. I don't think I have ever had that much warning that I could do nothing in for an unexpected event.
1. is terrible, because it effectively means that the abilities are a waste of ink because you cripple yourself by trying to use them.
2. is terrible, because you end up playing a suboptimal NPC class whenever your party is not actively seeking or expecting trouble.
And yes, you are playing a suboptimal NPC. Avengers are warriors without half of the feats that make their build work (making them worse than a warrior that was built to work with the constraints they play under). Stalkers are experts with crappy sneak attack and a larger but less flexible skill list. Warlock and Zealot in NPC mode manage to actually be worse than an Adept outside of low levels. Holy christ, this is bad. So no, I don't really see how people are looking at it wrong. People see an ability that turns you into a crappy NPC class, and they say "I don't want to play a crappy NPC class". This seems like some perfectly valid playtest feedback that shouldn't be dismissed as "looking at it the wrong way".
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Sure if he thinks its a crowded building. such as a tavern. maybe he goes inside and sees you run up the stairs, so he waits in the lobby for you to come back down. or goes outside and watches the perimeter. But yes a smart perp waits for the right moment to strike. unless your GM is an a!~&&!! and has him attack you in the streets knowing the perp is either dead anyway or going to go to jail regardless as long as he kills you.
If the perp is a PC class, I can definitely see him following. If he isn't, the change isn't worth it.
You really haven't convinced me in the least.
Remember that in Pathfinder, an entire combat is usually less than a minute long. A round of actions is only six seconds!
I'll be totally honest. 5 min is WAY too long. It's crippling to cut yourself off from your class abilities on the HOPE that something dangerous doesn't happen.
"Just you wait werewolf! In just 50 rounds I'll stop you from eating villagers! Just you wait. Any minute now... Ok, I ready!... Where are all the villagers?..."
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Remember that in Pathfinder, an entire combat is usually less than a minute long. A round of actions is only six seconds!
Standard combat is usually about 2-5 rounds. That's between 12 and 30 seconds.
So...the vigilante only takes between 10 and 25 combats worth of inaction to stop being an NPC?
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turns out it was a village of werewolves and you're just a public menace.
turns out it was a village of werewolves and you're just a public menace.
And then he needs to spend 5 minutes changing back while werewolves tear at the door.
It could be worse though. Right around the time wizards are binding powerful angelic full-casters and fearsome demons to act as their pets, the vigilante can learn the secret and long forgotten lost art of taking off their shirt in under 5 minutes.
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You know how tricky those buttons can be...
You know how tricky those buttons can be...
So...the lost art is wearing a T-Shirt?
Mind=Blown.
You know how tricky those buttons can be...So...the lost art is wearing a T-Shirt?
Mind=Blown.
No... It's this special new material... Velcro... it's Magic!
Ok those of you who seem to think that the 5 minute change from Social to Vigilante is terrible during combat are looking at that ability the wrong way. Dont get me wrong in combat thats a hell of a waste. but this ability isnt supposed to be used when you get ambushed. If you chose to go into Social mode then you willing accept the risk of not having your class abilities. and thats not to say you cant be effective. you still get a full bab as an Avenger and Sneak attack as a Stalker, and First level spells as a Warlock/Zealot. for the former 2 just take improvised weapon. Bam anything in the environment becomes a 1d6 weapon, for the avenger with a full BAB he is still hitting an enemy and for a Stalker they still get 1d4 points of Sneak attack per 2 levels, as long as they are flanking they are still hitting and doing damage. so not completely useless.
No, not completely...
Still, no one is going to want that guy in their party when compared to just about every other alternative--alternatives which doesn't lose their class abilities at all when ambushed.
Remember, for no one to want to play the class, it doesn't have to be super weak, it just needs to be weaker than the other options out there.
I think the civilian identity would be less of a burden if there was something to do with it other than establish renown. Like some super social talents or means to get massive dayjob money, or super crafting skills. Then there is the issue of parties that travel a lot.
Being able to henshin could easily be an archetype but with the social identity as it is you have little incentive to actually use it when its risky to be in it. At the very least the transformation should scale down as you approach Quick Change.
Lead Designer
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Lets not get dragged down too much in a sarcastic argument about the change time. That is going to end up with this thread being locked. We are aware of the issue and it is very likely going to change. Be polite to your fellow playtesters everyone.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Be polite to your fellow platesetters everyone.I'm going to be platesetting the vigilante this weekend, but I'm already confused by dual identity. Does an avenger's social identity go to the left or the right of the salad fork? :P
i noticed that typo as well... hehe
i noticed that typo as well... heheBe polite to your fellow platesetters everyone.I'm going to be platesetting the vigilante this weekend, but I'm already confused by dual identity. Does an avenger's social identity go to the left or the right of the salad fork? :P
That was a typo? I thought it was a metaphor.
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S@~@, I was still in my platesetter disguise when the vigilante class attacked and now I can't playtest him for five more minutes!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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What if...
Instead of class abilities being "turned off" when in your social identity, using class abilities have a chance of tipping people off. Instead of it feeling like "gee, I wish I still knew how to fight", you instead get "if I use this cool maneuver...someone might know it's me".
I think that approach is much more thematic and less artificial. What "being found out" actually means mechanically, could be handled several ways, and I'll leave that to the design team.
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What if...
Instead of class abilities being "turned off" when in your social identity, using class abilities have a chance of tipping people off. Instead of it feeling like "gee, I wish I still knew how to fight", you instead get "if I use this cool maneuver...someone might know it's me".I think that approach is much more thematic and less artificial. What "being found out" actually means mechanically, could be handled several ways, and I'll leave that to the design team.
"Okay, Mr. Dark, I beat this guy up like you wanted. I don't mind doing it, either, I just don't like my time being wasted. So what was the point?"
"A valid question, Mr. Chuck Finley. Let me ask one in return. Have you heard of the Masked Man of Miami, Sam Axe?"
"Wasn't he involved in that warehouse fiasco."
"Yes, he was. As was I, playing the part of the fool, allowing Sam Axe to liberate my weapons before I could get them into my buyers' hands. A one-time part, I assure you. He has been a thorn in my side, but I will hunt him down."
"And I wish you every success, Mr. Dark. But what does Sam Axe have to do with me?"
"He's the Masked Man of Miami. And his mask covers every bit of his face, except for his chin. It bears a distinctive scar. And I've noticed that you bear a similar scar on your chin. So naturally I became suspicious of you. Then I noticed that you boast a skillset remarkably similar to Sam Axe's. He treats pitch black like the brightest day; I saw you hold your own against two city guardsmen underneath the Umbral Bridge. His favored weapons are a pair of short swords, and you favor those daggers, usually in pairs. Surely you can see why I would suspect you."
"Oh, naturally. So you wanted to see me in action and study me up close. May I ask your verdict?"
"Of course. I have come to the conclusion that you, Mr. Chuck Finley, are most assuredly not Sam Axe. In a brawl, he takes his time, letting his opponent reveal a mistake to be exploited. You, on the other hand, rushed through your pummeling of that man. The timing, the selection of strikes, your whole demeanor. It bears no resemblance to the fighting style of Sam Axe, and I know it was genuine."
"Sounds good to me. Is there anything else, Mr. Dark?"
"I wish you to join me for a toast. I have a trusted ally, and one less possible alias to investigate in my pursuit of Sam Axe. Cheers."
"Cheers."
...
*Please note that Chuck Finley and Sam Axe are the same person. Both Chuck and Sam have the same abilities. Both Chuck and Sam have equal and full access to the same abilities. What was demonstrated above was Chuck succeeding on a difficult Disguise check (with the help of a hefty class-granted bonus to the skill) to make his abilities not resemble his alternate identity's abilities.*
Seem like something a Vigilante would be capable of doing, or not?