| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Frankly, yes. Which is why I will be avoiding the class. Nothing against those who do wanna be a certain flying rodent based crusader, just not the direction I want.
...Underdog? Wait, no...
:P
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I also really, really want to see an all vigilante table take on Scars of the Third Crusade, with a really, really good, flexible, GM.
That would really mess with that scenario, in a good way. (But it would need to be a good 6-8 hour slot, minimum.)
|
Dunno what to make of the class yet but I've had this playing.
Yes, who knows what builds lurk in the hearts of players?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Discussion from yesterday afternoon at a game store:
"What if the Vigilante persona is Neutral Evil, and the Social persona is True Neutral. Is that guy still legal in PFS?"
ME: No. If either persona is evil, the character is declared dead.
Everyone else: "I don't know about that. That's the entire point of Dual Identity. As long as the Social persona is the one showing up for the VC briefing, and as long as the character can resume the Social persona at the end of the adventure, it's legal."
"I can see a Chelaxian character whose Social persona is Lawful Evil, but whose Vigilante persona is Lawful Neutral."
Expect evil PCs.
|
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, Pathfinders can be evil. PCs in PFS can't be evil.
I for one am thrilled that they finally released Mike's class... I've been wondering for quite some time. ;)
By day mild-mannered Paizo employee...
By night, the Decemvirate!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dunno what to make of the class yet but I've had this playing.
Yes, who knows what builds lurk in the hearts of players?
My favorite hero is the Shadow. I wish there could be encounter between the Shadow and the Joker. Nothing but maniacal laughter for half an hour.
|
I think the Vigilante class can work well in PFS simply with a couple requirements. First limit the scenarios they do and second make it know to your fellow pathfinders what your secret identity as a vigilante is...they're commiting the same acts of violence and theft so they can't really expose you to the authorities. Especially if your character doesn't commit crimes outside of society missions.
For that matter your vigilante isn't going to seem weird that he changes into a diferent person when social matters end and action is needed. Alchemist pull a Mr. Hyde and hulk out in combat as do barbarians, druids turn into animals...having an alter ego isn't any weirder. Heck going with the social identity as cover for your group and when the action starts, they provide a distraction so the vigilante can change.
Great...now I talked myself into a new character.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Class was a resounding "meh" for me.
One of those classes where you can either work hard to do damage, sneaking, or magics in certain circumstances... or you could just pick a class that's inately good at those instead.
The persona thing sounds good in a comic book world where an author builds in their "costume changes" into the story, but in PFS you can find yourself thrust from social encounter to full on fight in an instant, and people aren't exactly going to sit around for five minutes while you put on your tights.
|
|
While it's not 'ideal' for Society, it could work really well under the right concept. As a class, I like what I've glanced at so far. If I wasn't juggling several characters already, I'd give it a go.
I like the idea of being in your social persona, only for matters to escalate. Suddenly you're having to try to think your way out of it and get out of that combat so you can get into costume. It happens all the time in comics/films where the masked character has to deal with the villian, but because of spectators and the absence of their mask/suit/powers, they have to figure their way out of it.
|
I have a character concept that fits this well based on a character done by a comedian that is a less than perfect vigilante crimefighter. The comedic character doesn't actually have any described skills, but there are things to work with, though he does always "accidentally" give up his secret identity. The problem with the Vigilante class is that I can make the same character much better by making a multi-classed Paladin/Oracle/a few other things. Vigilante seems to be built around being the character rather than mechanics that are strong enough to hold up in a system (especially PFS) where there are already a lot of strong options. Maybe PFS changes for renown can fix that, but it's otherwise not a good mechanic for PFS. There are some very cool things that are unique to the Vigilante sub-types?, but they are spread too thin to make the class a really competitive choice.
Avenger and Stalker each have good options, but as I've seen elsewhere, they'd actually be able to be a good class with cool synergy of talents if they were combined.
Perhaps adding in some more free spell slots or scaling them better would help the Zealot and Warlock options, which right now are just really weak Inquisitor/Arcanist.
|
|
The real answer for the Vigilante's social identity is to take over as one of the existing VCs. I am, in fact, Ambrus Valsin. I also happen to put on a mask and go adventuring from time to time. Puts a very different spin on EotT, from what I've read about that chain.
A central problem with the Renown ability is that, until level 9, you basically have renown in the Grand Lodge. That's it. At level 9, you could reasonably hit a district or two of Absalom. Of course, the bigger issue is that the social identity is a complete liability in most scenarios that would lull you into using it. Merchant's Wake comes to mind. There are a couple that are friendlier, like Blakros Matrimony, but the 5 minute switch is frustratingly bad for society play. That problem doesn't go away until retirement, either.
|
|
There are a few solid ways to approach a Vigilante Society Agent:
1) Scholar/Academic (Social Persona) who is "assigned" to archeological missions (would take some careful scenario selection). Goes "Vigilante" when things get dangerous. Perhaps a pathfinder who just never can get the Masters to let them be a full field agent and decides to operate as one beneath a mask anyways.
2) Sovereign Court noble who is "attached" to a team of field agents for diplomatic reasons. When danger occurs, etc. Done so the noble can have plausible deniability for the actions of ye ole murder hobos.
3) Former Shadow Lodge agent whose Shadow Lodge handle is the Vigilante side. They aren't officially a Pathfinder as their SL persona (for obvious reasons), but operate as one via a social persona to get involved in the missions.
I'm sure there are other great ideas. The biggest obstacle, as others have stated, is the 5 minute changing time and that the social persona would only ever come out for investigations/social. Too many society scenarios don't give you a "five minute warning" combat is about to happen. It may mean that the Vigilante persona is the one who is most frequently "on" because of this and social persona only shows up for investigation/social phases.
|
|
Is it too late to throw in the question as to whether the social and vigilante can be of different factions. Gotta legal campaigner for abolition of slavery by day crusader for freeing slaves by any means necessary by nigh kind of idea that might fit
So your social persona is LG, LN, or NG, and the vigilante is CN (you said any means necessary, any means necessary is not good)? Those are more then one step away from each other in alignment.
Now, you could claim that your social persona is a different faction, as long as you gain no mechanical benefits from that, after all you would only ever gain prestige from a single faction unless you actually change factions.
|
Assistant Developer
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Discussion from yesterday afternoon at a game store:
"What if the Vigilante persona is Neutral Evil, and the Social persona is True Neutral. Is that guy still legal in PFS?"
ME: No. If either persona is evil, the character is declared dead.
Everyone else: "I don't know about that. That's the entire point of Dual Identity. As long as the Social persona is the one showing up for the VC briefing, and as long as the character can resume the Social persona at the end of the adventure, it's legal."
"I can see a Chelaxian character whose Social persona is Lawful Evil, but whose Vigilante persona is Lawful Neutral."
Expect evil PCs.
Good catch, Chris.
In Pathfinder Society, the rule that Pathfinder Society characters cannot be evil applies to both of the Vigilante's personas. Neither of your personas can be evil. This is an official ruling.