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So I'm reading the vigilante and disusing it with some folks I play with and after we read it we kind of all settled on the same question,
"What niche does this fill"?
Sans specialization, it feels a lot like a rogue ("rogue... but different" was what the consensus was). With each specialization it feels like you get a bit of a different class in there (sorry for being general but fighter, magus maybe, and inquisitor?) but it was never really on par with it.
Like I walk into a dungeon and the rogue is doing his stealth stuff or his party face stuff and the fighter is breaking things with his sword and the wizard is doing his magic stuff- what is the vigilante doing? (And I know it's not all "in the dungeon" kinda stuff). I get that he has a social focus (and I LOVE that) but at the end of the day it feels like a "weak version of X class". It feels like it's screaming for a niche to fill but doesn't really do that.
It does have a bit of a "party face" feel (social graces + saves are Cha based which reinforces it) but every time I start to believe that I start to think of a charisma focused rogue or Bard with their spells and say "hmm... I think they could probably do that better".
I can kind of see it if I squint I think. Like if you want a face characters but lack X class/roll you could have someone roll a vigilante.
Also, kudos for breaking with system dogma of having HD values and BAB progression married to each other and making a potentially d8 full BAB class ;-).
PS: Sorry if I came off harsh or whatnot- I just really like the concept!
I think the whole idea came from a "how do we make batman" perspective, and turned into what we got.
I love it, just finished my first read-through of the class and it comes off to me as some of the best design as far as versatile classes go.
It's a heavy skill class, with options to play like other classes and fill different mechanical niches.
If going the arcane spellcaster route, most skills ever. I love the reintroduction of Arcanist spellcasting.
Mechanically, the class can literally be anything you want while also filling the role of skill monkey/party face.
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Well, the current version is a little underpowered on the combat side of things, but assuming that improves...
It's a skill character, specifically a Stealth/Face character that can also fill a solid melee/ranged weapon-user role, and dabble pretty effectively in offensive spell-casting if you like.
At the moment, the lack of combat capability makes that a bit hard to fully realize, but there's a history of Paizo playtests erring on the side of underpowered, and it's easy to change...so I'd imagine that'll definitely be fixed in the final version.
Currently, this class really suffers from having a tiny niche. You can be a face and have skills, and you have specialisations that are worse than the classes they try and mimic. For instance, I could play a Ninja, do the whole stalker thing better, and still have skills and act as a party face. I could be an Inquisitor, have 6th level spellcasting, a Domain/Inquisition, have lots of skills, act as a face and STILL have the option of Judgement/Bane(Gtr)/Hunter Animal Companion/Sneak Attack + Studied Target etc, depending on what archetypes I go with.
The Warlock has to differentiate itself from a Bard, which still does the whole face/skills/6th level casting as well as launching into buffs/debuffs. Skald is a little more MAD but hey, still fits the same niche. I think the Avenger is the only specialisation that really has a niche due to granting full BAB, Fighter feats, pounce AND still having skill points and a party face but with everything else...I just don't see it.
Hopefully, some of these specialisations get an upgrade or buff/boost later on in the playtest, perhaps something that allows it to differentiate itself from some of the classes the specialisations are trying to mimic. Like seriously, half the talents of the Zealot are ripped straight from the Inquisitor class abilities, which is really just lazy design, and doesn't really encourage someone to play that particular spec.
Which you can also achieve with most of the above classes (Ninja/Bard/Inquisitor can all shift into a "spy role" exceptionally quickly and easily). Dual-Identity is nice, but could easily be achieved by me rolling up a character and saying "I have a secret identity" (though the divination fooling is ok I guess).
Sans specialization, it feels a lot like a rogue ("rogue... but different" was what the consensus was). With each specialization it feels like you get a bit of a different class in there (sorry for being general but fighter, magus maybe, and inquisitor?) but it was never really on par with it.
I have never ever ever liked the Pathfinder rogue, and every incarnation of trying to make a "Rogue...but different" such as the Alchemist, Bard (Arcaeologist), and Investigator have all been miles better than the original class. I haven't played this one yet, but I don't think "Rogue but different" is a bad thing. I think there are certainly other classes that can do aspects of this better, but in any of those cases you get into a different niche. This feels more like a Jack of All Trades to me - like the Rogue itself is meant to be.
I don't know, I'm excited to try it. Of course, that may be mostly because this class feels like I could finally pull off John Constantine.
So I'm reading the vigilante and disusing it with some folks I play with and after we read it we kind of all settled on the same question,
"What niche does this fill"?Sans specialization, it feels a lot like a rogue ("rogue... but different" was what the consensus was). With each specialization it feels like you get a bit of a different class in there (sorry for being general but fighter, magus maybe, and inquisitor?) but it was never really on par with it.
Like I walk into a dungeon and the rogue is doing his stealth stuff or his party face stuff and the fighter is breaking things with his sword and the wizard is doing his magic stuff- what is the vigilante doing? (And I know it's not all "in the dungeon" kinda stuff). I get that he has a social focus (and I LOVE that) but at the end of the day it feels like a "weak version of X class". It feels like it's screaming for a niche to fill but doesn't really do that.
It does have a bit of a "party face" feel (social graces + saves are Cha based which reinforces it) but every time I start to believe that I start to think of a charisma focused rogue or Bard with their spells and say "hmm... I think they could probably do that better".
Well, the Avenger is breaking stuff with his sword so you have two fighters.
The Stalker is stealth stuff, you have two rogues for flanking.Warlock doing more magic stuff.
Zealoy being a pseudo paladin.
You bring the Stalker if you need a rogue. He won't do much worse.
The avenger fills the Fighters role.
Although, the warlock brings infinite blasting by 4th (full attacking with it in playtest) with mystic bolt.
The main problem I see with the class is its difficulty to fit into a party that doesn't subscribe to the same idea/play the same class.
That being said it looks nice for a solo campaign.
It's definitely a class that I think is more specialized for certain types of campaigns, specifically Urban campaigns, or campaigns who play with themes of rebellions or espionage.
Which I think is fine, since not every character is going to work in every campaign, and the role of vigilante is probably only slightly more limiting than...say a Paladin.
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I guess I'm one of those that don't really bother with niches or "roles" so I'm very happy to see this base class doing all sorts of things other classes....do? But none of them will do it in quite the same way, or have the same variety of options available to them. I think there would be plenty of room for a rogue (chained or un-), inquisitor and vigilante (regardless of specialisation) in one party.
I think the spy motif is there, but not a great part of the attraction for me. Being able to reliably impersonate and also mingle without being discerned is good for.... intrigue?
Hm it could be interesting as an Antagonist vs a Investigator :P...
to be honest, I think its a pretty cool class but I don't feel like its supposed to be grouped with your standard fighter, cleric, wizard and rouge on their mission to clear out as many dungeons, get as much treasure and kill the big bad dragon at the end.
I believe it fits into more of a, superhero city themed build. evil bad guy is trying to destroy the city and its you and your parties job to save it. and I kind of imagine the party being made up of the 4 different specialisations of this class, maybe with an inquisitor or a bard thrown in.
different classes suit different campaigns and this one probably isn't the one for a Tolkien adventure
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to be honest, I think its a pretty cool class but I don't feel like its supposed to be grouped with your standard fighter, cleric, wizard and rouge on their mission to clear out as many dungeons, get as much treasure and kill the big bad dragon at the end.
I believe it fits into more of a, superhero city themed build. evil bad guy is trying to destroy the city and its you and your parties job to save it. and I kind of imagine the party being made up of the 4 different specialisations of this class, maybe with an inquisitor or a bard thrown in.
different classes suit different campaigns and this one probably isn't the one for a Tolkien adventure
There's some wisdom in those ideas. One of the coolest parts of Ultimate Intrigue is going to be giving you guys a toolbox to run and play campaigns where social intrigue and politics play a big part. Do you think it would be cool to work against a mastermind in a Game of Thrones type situation instead of clear a dungeon of orcs? Right now, it's easy to run a game with the orcs, but less so with the intrigue. We're hoping to help with that! And the vigilante is a perfect match for his book (and the final version will no doubt reveal additional mechanics that tie in with all the other cool stuff for Ultimate Intrigue that hasn't even been written yet!).
Funnily enough, Vigilante seems perfectly suited to an Intimidate-focused combat style to me. Stalker offers up Twisting Fear, and the base class does give its innate intimidate bonuses as well. Add in the possibility of Intimidate becoming a class skill in the final version (or at the very least by use of traits for games where they are available), and it seems like a natural fit. Probably going to be the approach I take for my upcoming adventure test. Even better, compared to another one of the excellent options for an intimidate combat approach (the Inquisitor), you don't have as much competing for swift-action use with Hurtful, which helps get up the number of attacks you can make.
I was thinking actually that the Vigilante actually fits pretty well in a game where being a standard Fighter or mage can be a bit of a liability. I.e. Playing a city based game that requires stealth and finesse.
There's some wisdom in those ideas. One of the coolest parts of Ultimate Intrigue is going to be giving you guys a toolbox to run and play campaigns where social intrigue and politics play a big part. Do you think it would be cool to work against a mastermind in a Game of Thrones type situation instead of clear a dungeon of orcs? Right now, it's easy to run a game with the orcs, but less so with the intrigue. We're hoping to help with that! And the vigilante is a perfect match for his book (and the final version will no doubt reveal additional mechanics that tie in with all the other cool stuff for Ultimate Intrigue that hasn't even been written yet!).to be honest, I think its a pretty cool class but I don't feel like its supposed to be grouped with your standard fighter, cleric, wizard and rouge on their mission to clear out as many dungeons, get as much treasure and kill the big bad dragon at the end.
I believe it fits into more of a, superhero city themed build. evil bad guy is trying to destroy the city and its you and your parties job to save it. and I kind of imagine the party being made up of the 4 different specialisations of this class, maybe with an inquisitor or a bard thrown in.
different classes suit different campaigns and this one probably isn't the one for a Tolkien adventure
to be honest a corrupt city campaign with evil masterminds working in the shadows for our characters to uncover and smash out sounds like a lot of fun, and its the only real use of the dual identity I can think off. gathering intelligence by day, using it to fight by night but the only issue I can think of is that it sounds incredibly demanding on the GM. a quick adventure story is easier to manage than a mystery story.
I love the fact that the developers have taken this on bored, I'm really looking forward to it.
Contributor
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There's some wisdom in those ideas. One of the coolest parts of Ultimate Intrigue is going to be giving you guys a toolbox to run and play campaigns where social intrigue and politics play a big part. Do you think it would be cool to work against a mastermind in a Game of Thrones type situation instead of clear a dungeon of orcs? Right now, it's easy to run a game with the orcs, but less so with the intrigue. We're hoping to help with that! And the vigilante is a perfect match for his book (and the final version will no doubt reveal additional mechanics that tie in with all the other cool stuff for Ultimate Intrigue that hasn't even been written yet!).to be honest, I think its a pretty cool class but I don't feel like its supposed to be grouped with your standard fighter, cleric, wizard and rouge on their mission to clear out as many dungeons, get as much treasure and kill the big bad dragon at the end.
I believe it fits into more of a, superhero city themed build. evil bad guy is trying to destroy the city and its you and your parties job to save it. and I kind of imagine the party being made up of the 4 different specialisations of this class, maybe with an inquisitor or a bard thrown in.
different classes suit different campaigns and this one probably isn't the one for a Tolkien adventure
to be honest a corrupt city campaign with evil masterminds working in the shadows for our characters to uncover and smash out sounds like a lot of fun, and its the only real use of the dual identity I can think off. gathering intelligence by day, using it to fight by night but the only issue I can think of is that it sounds incredibly demanding on the GM. a quick adventure story is easier to manage than a mystery story.
I love the fact that the developers have taken this on bored, I'm really looking forward to it.
I would highly suggest checking out Council of Thieves if that sort of story appeals to you - CoT is almost exactly that. ^_^
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The Niche is exactly what it says : dual-identity character.
If you tried to build anything like this before, you ended up with a subpar character based on a base-class chassis and longing for Gestalt.
Not to mention too MAD to survive unless you restricted yourself to CHA-based classes.
At least now we have mechanics to back up this type of character.
I would highly suggest checking out Council of Thieves if that sort of story...There's some wisdom in those ideas. One of the coolest parts of Ultimate Intrigue is going to be giving you guys a toolbox to run and play campaigns where social intrigue and politics play a big part. Do you think it would be cool to work against a mastermind in a Game of Thrones type situation instead of clear a dungeon of orcs? Right now, it's easy to run a game with the orcs, but less so with the intrigue. We're hoping to help with that! And the vigilante is a perfect match for his book (and the final version will no doubt reveal additional mechanics that tie in with all the other cool stuff for Ultimate Intrigue that hasn't even been written yet!).to be honest, I think its a pretty cool class but I don't feel like its supposed to be grouped with your standard fighter, cleric, wizard and rouge on their mission to clear out as many dungeons, get as much treasure and kill the big bad dragon at the end.
I believe it fits into more of a, superhero city themed build. evil bad guy is trying to destroy the city and its you and your parties job to save it. and I kind of imagine the party being made up of the 4 different specialisations of this class, maybe with an inquisitor or a bard thrown in.
different classes suit different campaigns and this one probably isn't the one for a Tolkien adventure
to be honest a corrupt city campaign with evil masterminds working in the shadows for our characters to uncover and smash out sounds like a lot of fun, and its the only real use of the dual identity I can think off. gathering intelligence by day, using it to fight by night but the only issue I can think of is that it sounds incredibly demanding on the GM. a quick adventure story is easier to manage than a mystery story.
I love the fact that the developers have taken this on bored, I'm really looking forward to it.
thanks for the suggestion. I'll might have to suggest it to my current party. be fun if we all play a different vigilant specialisations.
There's some wisdom in those ideas. One of the coolest parts of Ultimate Intrigue is going to be giving you guys a toolbox to run and play campaigns where social intrigue and politics play a big part. Do you think it would be cool to work against a mastermind in a Game of Thrones type situation instead of clear a dungeon of orcs? Right now, it's easy to run a game with the orcs, but less so with the intrigue. We're hoping to help with that! And the vigilante is a perfect match for his book (and the final version will no doubt reveal additional mechanics that tie in with all the other cool stuff for Ultimate Intrigue that hasn't even been written yet!).to be honest, I think its a pretty cool class but I don't feel like its supposed to be grouped with your standard fighter, cleric, wizard and rouge on their mission to clear out as many dungeons, get as much treasure and kill the big bad dragon at the end.
I believe it fits into more of a, superhero city themed build. evil bad guy is trying to destroy the city and its you and your parties job to save it. and I kind of imagine the party being made up of the 4 different specialisations of this class, maybe with an inquisitor or a bard thrown in.
different classes suit different campaigns and this one probably isn't the one for a Tolkien adventure
I can see that. I think I'd need to see those other mechanics before I really bought into it however. Looking forward to it!
I can see that. I think I'd need to see those other mechanics before I really bought into it however. Looking forward to it!There's some wisdom in those ideas. One of the coolest parts of Ultimate Intrigue is going to be giving you guys a toolbox to run and play campaigns where social intrigue and politics play a big part. Do you think it would be cool to work against a mastermind in a Game of Thrones type situation instead of clear a dungeon of orcs? Right now, it's easy to run a game with the orcs, but less so with the intrigue. We're hoping to help with that! And the vigilante is a perfect match for his book (and the final version will no doubt reveal additional mechanics that tie in with all the other cool stuff for Ultimate Intrigue that hasn't even been written yet!).to be honest, I think its a pretty cool class but I don't feel like its supposed to be grouped with your standard fighter, cleric, wizard and rouge on their mission to clear out as many dungeons, get as much treasure and kill the big bad dragon at the end.
I believe it fits into more of a, superhero city themed build. evil bad guy is trying to destroy the city and its you and your parties job to save it. and I kind of imagine the party being made up of the 4 different specialisations of this class, maybe with an inquisitor or a bard thrown in.
different classes suit different campaigns and this one probably isn't the one for a Tolkien adventure
Oh for sure! Honestly, I think those mechanics are the most exciting things coming in Ultimate Intrigue, even more so than the vigilante itself. I think when you see them all together, there will be some lightbulb moments for sure!