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Ok, a LONG time back there was a thread on how undeath, etc, effects souls and raise dead, true resurrection, etc.
Following the Mummy's Mask adventure, I have to wonder about the Boneyard, and just how long it takes Pharasma to judge someone.
The reason I wonder this is, in the second part of the adventure, we see someone do something that creates a LOT of instant undead, including undead which have souls, and not just from fresh bodies, but from corpses dead several thousand years.
I know this is artifact level power, but...
The second thing it made me wonder is that when working magic like 'raise dead' do you count time elapsed from when they stop breathing, or when they stop moving? Because, arguably, undead die again when slain. Something like a mummy has it's soul, or at least part of it (and, this is the central conceit of the entire adventure) and Pharasma's judgment is why there's a time limit on magical resurrections, wouldn't they be freshly 'dead' when defeated, no matter how long they had been undead?
No, undead are destroyed, not slain. Only the living can be slain.
I wonder if the limit on Raise Dead/Resurrection isn't how long the soul has before it gets judged (which, after all, shouldn't depend upon the level of the spellcaster as we actually observe), but rather on the spellcaster's skill at retrieving the soul even if it has already gone through judgment, including any mooshing together with other souls or other corruption that the destination plane might have done to it (such as Lemure formation and Devil Shaping in Hell). This implies that if you Resurrect somebody who is in a final destination, you are likely to honk off not only Pharasma, but also whoever is at the destination. This fits with the Damned class "feature" of Diabolists, Souldrinkers, and Demoniacs making them harder to raise: Souls thus tagged are more noticeable to the corresponding fiends if taken back out, and even if they can't respond to the soul escape alert right away, they have some automatic countermeasures in place to make the soul retrieval harder.
I have to wonder about the Boneyard, and just how long it takes Pharasma to judge someone.
If i recall correctly, the Boneyard is timeless (time doesn't flow in there).
So it should take from anything between 5 minutes to "forever".
When my players die, here and then i make a small roleplay in the Boneyard. Last session, the entire group had to plane shift to the boneyard to recover the soul of a dead magus PC, when they got there, they realized that he didnt answer the Raise Dead spell because there was a demon and a night hag fighting for his soul (and they had to deal with it).
The travel to the spire is always described to them as being "way too long, you forgot how long you all have been walking, it should have been days, but you don't feel tired".
Something like a mummy has it's soul, or at least part of it (and, this is the central conceit of the entire adventure)
It has only a fraction of it, depends on what kind of mummy it is. Normally, the owner does get judged by pharasma. In the adventure, his soul was divided in several parts and he never got judged.
Creative Director
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If Pharasma has judged a soul, it can't be restored to life via any mortal magic. The time it takes to judge a soul, from the perspective of the Material Plane, is highly variable since time flows strangely in the Boneyard.
If a soul is never destined to be brought back to life, it doesn't matter how long it took to be judged.
If a soul IS destined to be brought back to life, the time it takes to be judged is always longer than the time between death and the resurrection.
Same goes for undeath, although with a longer window of potential time passed.
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If a soul IS destined to be brought back to life, the time it takes to be judged is always longer than the time between death and the resurrection.
Today I learned, while Prophecies may no longer work in Golarion, like his younger siblings Death and Dream, Destiny sure does.
Hey, wait a minute. If prophecy no longer works in the setting, how come Pharasma still knows who will die when and who is destined to be resurrected? Shouldn't the Age of Lost Omens mess that up?
It's not prophecy that gives her this knowledge, but her particular deific abilities.
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Hey, wait a minute. If prophecy no longer works in the setting, how come Pharasma still knows who will die when and who is destined to be resurrected? Shouldn't the Age of Lost Omens mess that up?It's not prophecy that gives her this knowledge, but her particular deific abilities.
I hate to necro the thread (LOL due to subject), but it suddenly occurred to me that is absolutely not an answer, as there would be zero difference between that and any other deity's ability to prognosticate.
So, again, how long? What's the likely limit?
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Prophecy doesn't work specifically on Golarion, but Fate still works, which is what Pharasma works off of.
Prophecy is the statement of Fate. Since even Gods do not know the future at this point, how would she work then with Fate?
It's like saying she works with light, but nothing reflects light in this universe.
in the example I'm thinking of, the party tries to raise someone long dead. this fails, as Pharasma has judged them. However, if this judgment, by nature, includes that no one will ever try to raise them from the dead, the judgment itself is then inherently flawed, as the party, unknowing, tried to do just that.
I can already hear the party gathering up their briefcases and heading off to the Boneyard to argue a mistrial.
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Prophecy doesn't work specifically on Golarion, but Fate still works, which is what Pharasma works off of.Prophecy is the statement of Fate. Since even Gods do not know the future at this point, how would she work then with Fate?
It's like saying she works with light, but nothing reflects light in this universe.
in the example I'm thinking of, the party tries to raise someone long dead. this fails, as Pharasma has judged them. However, if this judgment, by nature, includes that no one will ever try to raise them from the dead, the judgment itself is then inherently flawed, as the party, unknowing, tried to do just that.
I can already hear the party gathering up their briefcases and heading off to the Boneyard to argue a mistrial.
no, the statement is self-fulfilling. If the soul is not destined to be raised, then she judges it, and even if you try it won't come back. Being destined to come back has no baring on others trying to make you com back..... Based on the scene from Lord of Runes, its more the soul itself decides when it it ready to stay in the aferlife (I believe there is an entire article in one of the adventure paths on this by the way, so I could be totally wrong)
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no, the statement is self-fulfilling. If the soul is not destined to be raised, then she judges it, and even if you try it won't come back.
But those Fate and Destiny words keep coming up, and the setting almost expressly throws them out the window.
Based on the scene from Lord of Runes, its more the soul itself decides when it it ready to stay in the aferlife (I believe there is an entire article in one of the adventure paths on this by the way, so I could be totally wrong)
That sounds like something I'd like to read, if you remember where you read it, please share. However, I'll point out that becoming undead after hundreds, or even thousands, of years dead would seem to toss that right out the window too.
The difference between fate and prophecy would be as follows:
Prophecy can be foretold. Fate cannot.
Basically, being able to hold the future to a script is not allowed, but since things still continue to happen, then there must be some present moment in which things do happen and become the past and immutable.
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The difference between fate and prophecy would be as follows:
Prophecy can be foretold. Fate cannot.
Basically, being able to hold the future to a script is not allowed, but since things still continue to happen, then there must be some present moment in which things do happen and become the past and immutable.
You're confusing the collapse of probable outcomes into a single event with Fate. That's like saying that the results of flipping a coin thirty times are Fate.
Prophecy is simply stating what Fate is.
And Fate got foretold a LOT before Aroden's death, apparently.
That's exactly what I'm saying. How are you backing up your definition in a manner that is consistent with a world without prophecy?
Pharasma is one of the most powerful deities, with her particular purview over fate. There's also an Eldest who knows the future, by virtue of being there/then at the same time. One might also consider prophecy to be a particularly robust form of fate- a fate that can withstand/incorporate being made public. Meanwhile, the fate of somebody being resurrected is something that can only be known (outside Pharasma) by resolving the question- attempting a resurrection.
Why does Pharasma hold off on judging souls so they can be raised as undead later, something she hates? Dunno, things get weird in Pathfinder around both Pharasma and undead/soul interactions.
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Based on some of the events involving prophecy from certain sources, I have a different outlook for (at least some) prophecies.
Prophecy isn't a guess, and it isn't a prediction. It's an attempt to force a specific future to come to pass.
See...
This wasn't an ancient prophecy the witches had dug up. It was something they meant to happen - and (the book seemed to imply that) if it weren't the Age of Lost Omens, it would have come to pass with or without their efforts.
So maybe that's what was lost. Not fate, but the ability to demand that fate fit the narrative.
Anyway, just a theory.
Why does Pharasma hold off on judging souls so they can be raised as undead later, something she hates? Dunno, things get weird in Pathfinder around both Pharasma and undead/soul interactions.
Sometimes you have to allow bad things to happen, in favor of your long-term goals. This is also a possible explanation for why the Christian God allows evil to happen.
From my real life experience, hate comes from lacking control over bad things. Applying this mortal logic to her, she hates undead because she can't do much to stop them. The fact that she technically could (but at a too high price) just makes her hate more intense.
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That sounds like something I'd like to read, if you remember where you read it, please share. However, I'll point out that becoming undead after hundreds, or even thousands, of years dead would seem to toss that right out the window too.
Based on the scene from Lord of Runes, its more the soul itself decides when it it ready to stay in the aferlife (I believe there is an entire article in one of the adventure paths on this by the way, so I could be totally wrong)
Lord or runes page 255 to 268 is Varian's encounter during his time in the afterlife dealing with being resurrected.
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Prophecy is an aspect of fate, but it is not the only aspect of fate. Just because prophecy no longer works, does not mean that fate does not work. My hand is part of my body but if my hand is destroyed the rest of my body continues to function. Also consider that Pharasma is the deity of prophecy so her abilities with prophecy should be a lot more powerful than any other being. Who is to say if she is not the reason why prophecy no longer functions? If that is the case then her own ability at prophecy would obviously not be affected.
Considering Iomedae blames Pharasma for not revealing that Aroden’s was going to die, it would seem she knew about his death before it happened, but for some reason chose not to reveal it to anyone.
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Interestingly, one could always run out the timer on resurrection. The farthest back a character can normally reach is 200 years (CL 20 true resurrection). If the judging process takes longer than that (material time), problems only occur when somebody's trying to break the system. What if the time changes in the Boneyard are so that both the fastest and slowest judgings take slightly over 200 years, material plane time?
Using the Mask of the Forgotten Pharaoh, a mummy (a sentient Undead and therefore possessed of a soul) is created in the Empty Graves portion of Mummy's Mask. While the Mask is artifact grade power, we're seeing a 400 odd year (IIRC) old sorceress (IIRC) brought back.
Given how the rules treat undead, (which I grant are there to keep you from simply rezzing the Vampire) it would 'seem' that the counter starts over again once they become 're-dead' for purposes of resurrection, as their time as undead is specifically stated to effect their final judgment (IIRC).