Help me build this Mighty Great Half Orc Skald ^^


Advice

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Hello everbody, I would like to create a mighty warrior, which can inspire his mates.
At first I was tring to build a powerful and long lasting Melee Fighter but some rules with fast healer and fast healing made me change my mind.

So now, i wanna make an epic Half Orc Skald (with the dip in bloodrager) but i need some help to choose between archetypes and some traits / spells combo.

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So let's begin with the stat Array (lets assume a 20pts buy):
16/12/14/10/8/14+2
or
16+2/12/14/10/8/14 (prolly this because I wont't pick power attack in the 5 first levels I guess)

Traits:
- fate's favored
- toothy ?
- One Synergizing wth moral bonuses? (+drawback)

Racial traits:
- Sacred tatoo : most bad ass looking you can get!
- Shaman's apprentice
- City raised?
- Dark vision : You can't fool such hero even in darkness !

Progression of the first 5 levels:
1) Skald(arch?) 1 : Skald's vigor(lv1 feat) + endurance feat(racial)+ scribe scrolls(free)
- Inspire give +2Str & +2 Con, and Fast Healing 2 to the hero

2) Bloodrager: with a Bloodline Familiars(celestial? destined?), get a valet one for future requirement of Amplified rage teamwork feat.
- Now Inspire give +4 / +4, Fast Healing 4 and we also get improved movespeed from the dip.
Awesome, can you feel this great hero rushing in fights?

3) Skald 2/ Bloodrager(1):
- Die hard to regen / fight like a boss even at negatives and get huge amount of life because with a con raised to 18 for example, you can fight from 31(average) to -18 with a fast healing 4 healing each round. Not bad for a lv3, but this Hero Shall be Epic

4) Skald 3 / bloodrager 1: Rage power? so many to pick from...

5) Skald 4 / bloodrager 1: Amplified rage, let the rage Flow! You get extra +4 str and con, wich means extra +2hd/level and +4hp at negatives too, and fast healing reaches 8.

So as spells i was thinking to get some cool ones like:
Level 0:
- Detect Magic : Such Hero should notice magic!
- Know Direction: Such Hero shall always now where is NORTH!
- Mending : Such Hero never fights with broken s#*!s!
- Read Magic: Such Hero is smart enough to read paper...
- Message: Such hero knows when to be silent and when to sing legends!
- Mage hand?: Such hero can get a female naked while... well you understood his great ^^.

Level 1:
- Call Weapon + Moment of Greatness : those 2 can give a lot of spontaneous awesome feeling
- Swallow your fear : a mighty hero can't be frightened !
- Feather fall? : Such hero should die in an epic fight not from falling ...

Level 2:
- Allegro : Fight like a man from the begin to the end !but require standard action to cast, and you also need a standard action to start rage, so 2 round buffing might be too much...
Such hero does not waste too much time buffing

- Bladed dash : I can already see this hero, grabing the weapon of his fallen blood brother with the call weapon spell, and dashing in for revenge !

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So which favored class bonus should I take? Extra rage round? Extra known spell at max lv-1, etra hp, etra skill?

For archetypes, I don't know what to get, any particular advice for such a hero? And I am also lost with rage powers...

This character should get voice as perform skill right?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Lovely.

Let me see...

Half-orc. Bloodrager. Amplified Rage. Able to use bardic performances. Skald allows use of bardic masterpieces. This is going to be fun.

1) Do not take amplified rage as a character feat.
2) Do spend a 2nd level spell known or a feat to get Battle Song of the People's Revolt. This will let you grant a teamwork feat (Amplified Rage) to your whole party. They don't have to qualify for the feat and they get the benefits.
3) Profit

You may want to make use of this feat Harmonic Spell and Lingering Performance so that you can benefit from Inspired Rage and the shared Amplified Rage combo as often as possible.

Grand Lodge

Rock on.

I took Community Minded as a trait. It hasn't been super relevant, but it's effectively Lingering Performance as a trait.

I'd take the extra rounds FCB for the first few levels, at least until 4th, and probably until 7th. Especially if you're not PFS where you get the free Extra Performance feat instead of Scribe Scroll. At 7th, picking up extra 2nd level spells know is better, there are lots of great 2nd level options, and you can take a bunch of different Battle Song of the People's Revolt versions for different teamwork feats.

For level 1 spells, look at the Triple Time Masterpiece.
For level 2 spells, I'm a fan of Gallant Inspiration. Mirror Image is also solid, your Fast Healing won't completely make up for having a mediocre AC.

Fated Champion or Totem Skald are the two common options. I'm pretty happy with Fated Champion.

Lesser Spirit Totem is your default Rage Power. An extra attack/mini pounce *for every person in your party* that ignores DR is hardcore.


Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
I took Community Minded as a trait. It hasn't been super relevant, but it's effectively Lingering Performance as a trait.

O.O That trait is amazing. Especially if you have it and Lingering Performance. 1 round of Inspire Courage/Rage lasts 5 rounds. Delicious.

Quote:
I'd take the extra rounds FCB for the first few levels, at least until 4th, and probably until 7th. At 7th, picking up extra 2nd level spells know is better, there are lots of great 2nd level options, and you can take a bunch of different Battle Song of the People's Revolt versions for different teamwork feats.

This is great advice. Note that you can spend higher level spell slots to get more Battle Songs, if that ever matters. You'll hit a cap at 4 of them before you run out of fun stuff to grant and any more if only useful in certain situations.

Quote:
For level 2 spells, I'm a fan of Gallant Inspiration.

Also good advice, once you have a good pick of 2nd levels spells known. Your party will love you for this. 1st level spell Lucky Break (Deep Magic) is also a great spell. It has a bit of randomness to it but it basically turns either a saving throw (20%), skill check (30%) or attack roll (50%) that you fail into an automatic success. You roll the chance and then a 1d4, to determine which of the next failures becomes a success. Spell lasts for 24 hours, or until it is discharged.

Quote:
Fated Champion or Totem Skald are the two common options. I'm pretty happy with Fated Champion.

Also good. My favorite is the mouse. Evasion for everyone!

Grand Lodge

Also, you should think about what you're going to do with your familiar. An 18 Str Goat is a flank buddy with some reasonable damage at low levels (1d4+6 gore.) Get him a Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists and maybe a couple of Greater Magic Fang scrolls and he'll scale alright. But you'll have to keep them alive. Shield Companion (the lvl 1 spell) can help here. Getting a Compsognathus that never pokes their head out is the other option.

Look through the bloodline familiar powers as well. Celestial Bloodline is surprisingly useful healing, and good action economy to keep people from bleeding out. But the other ones have potential too, depending on what sort of familiar you're looking at.

Between raging for a 2 attack pounce with Lesser Spirit Totem, prestidigiation, and 28 points of free healing, my goat's been memorable.

Scarab Sages

Wow. Great advise. And a great build. I'll be taking some of this for my fated champion/war drummer skald. :)


Hey guys, such good advices overall so i have many questions:

@DeathlessOne : with this Battle Song of the People's Revolt, It means I ll grant all my allies +6/+6 and I ll get +8/+8 right? So Awesome, and you can keep getting more teamwork feat by trading spell or feat !
It says perform percussion or wind, does this means that you need to keep an instrument on your hands?

@Markov Spiked Chain : Community Minded is kinda cool, because you only keep benefits (I'm not sure about this, a malus is a negative bonus...) after your rage ends, but sadly it does not work with skald's vigor.
I'll keep it in mind.
Triple Time Masterpiece is really cool, we can get it for "free" with a favored class bonus on lv1 spell when we get access to 2nd level spells at global level 5!

For rage powers, I was thinking to guarded life, but this lesser spirit totem seems cool, but it only works on melee...

About the familiar, since it won't increase its level after the first one, I didn't plan to get a fighting familiar. More a kind of flying scouting one.
I was also thinking to celestial, to get those "small fast healings on buddies" or patching small injuries after fight with it. With 14 cha, you can grant 3+2 times, 2 round of fast healing. For a total of 10 points of life, if we get 16 cha, you can 6 times per day, grand fast healing 1 for 3 rounds, for a total of 18 life. (Plus 16 cha, increases the damage of lesser spirit totem too and attack). How did you get 28 points of healing?(nevermind, you had 18 cha I guess :p)

@overall:
Totemic skald seems nice, and beasty, but "mouse"? Such a great mighty hero shaping in a form of mouse? Naaahh, we need more flavor here ! (even if evasion for the whole team is powerful!). Bull or Bear, really fit the character as animals ! Wolf could do it too, plus it grants scent.

I also like gallant inspiration too, I should replace allegro with that spell, and that spell by the song I guess... But I ll get it back later for sure!

I ll edit the first post to get some advice in count !

My question is: How to handle all those performing instruments while fighting? I don't have good experiences with bards. Can you use a greataxe and keep raging song with this Battle Song of the People's Revolt for example? Which perform skill should I use?

(edit : Ho crap, can't edit first post, I ll do another one later, to get everything in count)

Other questions: Does raging song moral bonus count for a weapon attack roll bonus for this trait?:

race trait wrote:

Requirement(s) Half-Orc, Orc

You take delight in delivering vicious blows with cruel weapons. Whenever you have a morale bonus on weapon attack rolls, you also receive a +1 trait bonus on weapon damage rolls.

And this traits is kinda cool too, with lesser spirit totem:

When you attack someone, can you first activate the spirit totem attack, then lets say your greataxe? This way if you hit with the small totem you also get +1 trait bonus on attack with your mighty weapon. So can we? :)
Quote:

Finish the Fight (Half-Orc raised by Orcs)

You're at the bottom of the pecking order, so when you challenge that order, your victory must be absolute.

Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls against opponents you already injured in the past 24 hours.

Yeah I know flavorwise you start at the "bottom of the pecking order", but such Hero does not fear the way to be a legend even if it takes his live to achieve that! He will start with nothing! Only his will and power can get him what he wants !

Grand Lodge

Yeah, you'll need to keep an instrument in at least one hand if you're going for Winds, String, or Percussion (so if you're trying to use Battle Song for Amplified Rage.) I went with Oratory, having to use a second Standard action to get going seemed rough, at least until Skald 7.

I was also looking at Guarded Life, but since it scales with Barbarian/Skald level, I wouldn't take it as your first power at level 3. At level 6, with Die Hard, you're potentially triggering it multiple times.

Your familiar's abilities don't increase, but the main combat stats (BaB, Saves, and HP) will track yours from all classes. So a fighter doesn't fall too far behind. Flying, healing scout is a fine choice too. I did your second stat array, but dropped Wis to 7 to get Cha 15. Then bumped it to 16 at 4th, and 18 with a headband. If I were starting now, I would probably go Str 16, Cha 15+2 to start, but I'm taking Paladin levels, so the extra Cha is more useful.

Raging song isn't giving you a Morale bonus to attacks, so that trait wouldn't trigger. It's pretty easy to get a Morale bonus to attacks, though. Battle Cry and Heroism are the first two to mind. The thing is, you've got a lot of good trait options (Fate's Favored, Tusked, Community Minded, Magical Knack, etc) that I don't think +1 damage is that great.

You'd probably need to check with your GM, but I think the spirit totem attack wouldn't count as you attacking for triggering stuff like that. It definitely doesn't get any bonuses or penalties you might have to attacks, just raw BaB and Cha. There's a FAQ entry with a bit more info.


Metux wrote:

@DeathlessOne : with this Battle Song of the People's Revolt, It means I ll grant all my allies +6/+6 and I ll get +8/+8 right? So Awesome, and you can keep getting more teamwork feat by trading spell or feat !

It says perform percussion or wind, does this means that you need to keep an instrument on your hands?

Can be a problem ... Maybe. Depends if your DM allows you to use your enemies as percussion instruments. :P

In all seriousness, starting your performance takes a standard action and maintaining it a free action. The same kind of action it takes to set an arrow in a bow or take your hand on/off a two handed weapon. Wear a set of pan pipes, or a harmonica on a string around your neck, bring it to your lips briefly to sound a single note and return your hand to your weapon.

Quote:

@overall:

Totemic skald seems nice, and beasty, but "mouse"? Such a great mighty hero shaping in a form of mouse? Naaahh, we need more flavor here ! (even if evasion for the whole team is powerful!). Bull or Bear, really fit the character as animals ! Wolf could do it too, plus it grants scent.

While a mouse is not a hamster, it is close enough and I have to say:

"What? Boo is outraged! See his fury! It's small, so look close. Trust me, it's there. "
"Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes!"


DeathlessOne wrote:

While a mouse is not a hamster, it is close enough and I have to say:

"What? Boo is outraged! See his fury! It's small, so look close. Trust me, it's there. "
"Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes!"

You sir, are a genius...good ideas of the build too.

Wouldn't it be worth it though to trade out your first level Feat for the Battle Song?

EDIT: Never mind needs 4 skill ranks


Another idea is that since you're half-orc you can add extra spells known as a FCB. This can help off-set the cost for the Masterpieces.


@Markov Spiked Chain: Yeah the masterpiece is great, but loosing time only to get started, and needing also always 1 hand dedicated to it kind off big drawback... With Oratory, you can shield + 1h weapon, or 2handed weapons... (but DeathlessOne might have done a good comment about it)

Oh yeah forgot its a familiar and some stats evolves with ya!.

For traits, you are right. But still not decided which ones I will take except Fate's favored.

@DeathlessOne :
So you can lets say, in one hand carry a drum, and with the other hit with a club and then fight with the 1 handed club.
But if you put some bells / gongs at your belt for example, you could do some "magical performing" just by making them hit to each others.
By raw, in the rules, it never says that it requires hands, it says that it requires a standard action to start, and a free action to continue.
So maybe it's a good and legit answer? And all those raging song, bardic performance are SU after all...

About the mouse, seems fun too, but I will have to call that Hero Minsk if I go this way:)

@Jodokai: did you read this topic before posting? :)


Ok, I checked a little, and here is a great comment of James Jacobs:

James Jacobs wrote:

Okay; I've been thinking this over and rephrased myself better on a similar thread... but basically, here's the trick.

Bardic performance does NOT require you to use a Perform skill that you have ranks in. It doesn't even need a Perform skill at all. Not only is Perform usable untrained, but the bardic performance ability does not require you to make Perform checks of any kind except for a few specific TYPES of bardic performance, such as countersong or distraction.

This means that when you inspire courage, you're not necessarily doing so by playing the flute or banging drums. It's more likely that you're singing or bragging or taunting or dancing or otherwise just showboating to raise your allies' morale. If you WANT to say that your bardic performance is from a particularly rousing violin solo, that's fine... but once it's started you don't have to keep playing the violin if you want to put the violin down and fight or spellcast or whatever because the actual Perform (strings) skill doesn't ever enter the picture.

So lets continue with this great and Mighty hero, who which probably go drums for the Fluff and some perform skill checks I guess. But you don't need to perform any skill to start a magical raging song or bardic performance!

He ll prolly go with a 2handed weapon or with a shield, because 1hand could be enough with his tremendous strengh.


Metux wrote:

@DeathlessOne :

So you can lets say, in one hand carry a drum, and with the other hit with a club and then fight with the 1 handed club.
But if you put some bells / gongs at your belt for example, you could do some "magical performing" just by making them hit to each others.
By raw, in the rules, it never says that it requires hands, it says that it requires a standard action to start, and a free action to continue.
So maybe it's a good and legit answer? And all those raging song, bardic performance are SU after all...

You got the gist of it. I'd go as far as have the small 'drum' hooked onto your belt and you just give it a few taps with a free hand (bucklers are my favorite and allow object manipulation) during combat.

Quote:
About the mouse, seems fun too, but I will have to call that Hero Minsk if I go this way:)

Minsc is pleased. Every hero has his own story. Boo was just upset about not being considered worthy of a 'might hero'. He is a Giant Space Hamster, after all. Though Miniaturized for your convenience.

Scarab Sages

My skald actually fights with a hollow great club. He taps it on the ground to pay it unless there are foes nearby. Then he does actually play it over their heads. :)


Ok, lets go for the round 2, with more details about the build of our Mighty Half Orc Skald:

So let's begin with the stat Array (lets assume a 20pts buy):
16/12/14/10/7/15+2 Yeah a mighty Hero has balls, not always making wise choices, but always with style !!
or
16+2/12/14/10/7/15

Traits:
- fate's favored For a fated Champion? Obvious
- Tusked Such hero is never unarmed! and stacks well with a normal attack and a lesser spirit attack).

- Still one open left, (maybe depending of a campaign trait)
- + 1 drawback

Racial traits:
- Sacred tatoo : most bad ass looking you can get!
- Shaman's apprentice : Only the most stalwart survive the years of harsh treatment that an apprenticeship to an orc shaman entails: Check this describes really well our Champion
- City raised? (free +2 local knowledge, because we already get almost all of those proficiencies).
- Dark vision : You can't fool such hero even in darkness !

Progression of the first 5 levels:
I will probably choose Fated Champion for flavor and some mechanics. I do not want totemic because I want the first rage power to be lesser spirit totem.
For the scribe scroll free feat at lv 1: I would ask my GM to swap for the PFS extra rage rounds feat, because writing only swift and immediate action spell is useless since you need a standard action to activate them...

Global Level 1 : Skald(Fated Champion) 1 :
- Skald's vigor(lv1 feat)+ scribe scroll or extra rage round.
- Inspire give +2Str & +2 Con, and Fast Healing 2 to the hero
- Bardic Knowledge (Ex)
- FCB : +1 rage round or +1 level 0 spell known

Global Level 2 : Skald(Fated Champion) 1 | Bloodrager 1:
- Swap Bloodline Power with a celestial bloodline familiar.(wallaby? goat? Ioun Wyrd? )
- Now Inspire give +4 / +4, Fast Healing 4 and we also get improved movespeed from the dip.
Awesome, can you feel this great hero rushing in fights?

Global Level 3 : Skald(Fated Champion) 2 | Bloodrager 1:
- Watcher of the Weave (Ex)
- Versatile Performance (Ex)
- Die hard(feat): To regen / fight like a boss even at negatives and get huge amount of life because with a con raised to 18 for example, you can fight from 31(average) to -18 with a fast healing 4 healing each round. Not bad for a lv3, but this Hero Shall be Epic
- FCB : +1 rage round or +1 level 0 spell known

Global Level 4 : Skald(Fated Champion) 3 | Bloodrager 1:
- Lesser spirit totem : Our Mighty Hero's Awesomeness can reach spirit's world and make them his allies)
- +1 Cha (now we have 16 or 18 cha :more bonus for spirits for everybody, more heal from the familiar, and more stylsh Hero).
- FCB : +1 rage round or +1 level 0 spell known

Global Level 5 : Skald(Fated Champion) 4 | Bloodrager 1:
- Battle Cry 3or4x/day(feat)? Cause even in trouble times, a mighty Hero can unleash great shouts to get the best of his allies!
But it seems too redundant with the moral bonus of the raging song...
Other idea? Another Battle song of the People's Revolt for an extra teamwork feat for the whole team?
- Swap a level 2 spell known => trade it for : Battle Song of the People's Revolt masterpiece
- FCB : +1 level 1 spell known => trade it for : Triple Time masterpiece

So as spells i was thinking to get some cool ones like:
Level 0:
- Detect Magic : Such Hero should notice magic!
- Know Direction: Such Hero shall always now where is NORTH!
- Mending : Such Hero never fights with broken s$@*s!
- Read Magic: Such Hero is smart enough to read paper...
- Message: Such hero knows when to be silent and when to sing legends!
- Mage hand?: Such hero can get a female naked while... well you understood his great ^^.

Level 1:
- Call Weapon + Moment of Greatness : Spontaneous spike of awesomeness
- Swallow your fear : A mighty hero can't be frightened !
- Feather fall? : Such hero should die in an epic fight not from falling ...

Level 2:
- Spell slot traded for Battle Song of the People's Revolt masterpiece
- Bladed dash : I can already see this hero, grabing the weapon of his fallen blood brother with the call weapon spell, and dashing in for revenge !
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So now, should we go with a shield and hit it with a 1handed weapon to get some flavor percussions, or should we go 2handed reach weapon ?
With the bite, lesser totem and the weapon, we can get some good kind of multiples attacks.
Or more orcish stuff with a greataxe or 2handed falchion?

And there is still this 5th level feat open, any advice?


I'd say go with this stat array:

Quote:


Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 15

Though I whimper at that Will Save. If you take a Hedgehog familiar (its not a hamster, but close!), you'll pick up a +2 will save. With Amplified rage, you'll have all the flanking buddies you need.

Since you chose City Raised, I'd suggest Community Minded trait because you are seriously lacking the Lingering Performance feat. Take Vain for your drawback. It's flavorful and fits the character.

5th Level feat? Harmonic Spell. Or Lingering Performance. I'd favor the first if you take community minded.

Levels 1 - 3 Skald, go for the favored class option for performance rounds, as you really don't need additional contrips and (again) Lingering Performance is nowhere to be seen. More rounds of performance/rage is good for you.

Level 4 skald -> Get BOTH masterpieces (yes, get the +1 first level spell option and trade it immediately). Secondly, I highly suggest (can't stress this enough) Mirror Image as your second level spell. It has saved my character's life many a time and bladed dash is only going to get you INTO danger more often than not. Get bladed dash AFTER you have mirror image at skald level 5.

Weapon/shield? Go with weapon + buckler. Your AC is not going to be great for a bit, but that +1 will help, and when you get your Mirror Image going, you get the option to two hand that weapon and ignore the buckler.


OK, so let's count how many rage rounds we have, let's add extra rage instead of scribe scroll:
Level 1: Raging song: 3+cha(2)+6(feat)+1(FCB)= 12 /day
Level 2: Raging song 12r | Rage 4+con(2)=6
level 3: Raging song 12+1(FCB)+2=15 | Rage 6
level 4: Raging song 18 | Rage 6
level 5: Raging song 20 | Rage 6

Yeah I think we need all FCB on extra round at first levels. Harmony spell is better than lingering for me, because it costs actions to start à song again. So yeah why not harmony spell.
Community minded is awesome to offset the raging song drawback, which stops when you are disabled. And allows à song to give benefits even when they further than the range of the song.

I ll count the saves/skills tonight, and think about mirror image.
I will also watch all the teamworks for the revolt master pièce. It s close to be alive :)


You may also want to consider Warleader's Rage as one of your feats.

I play PFS, so your home game may be different, but with the +8 you'll eventually be getting to your STR, do you really need to start with an 18? If you lowered it to 16 (which would still be a 24 STR at 4th level while performing) you could bring up your WIS.

EDIT: Also for a 1st level spell Saving Finale can be a life saver (especially with your WILL Save) and stacks really well with Community Minded or Lingering Performance.


Jodokai wrote:
You may also want to consider Warleader's Rage as one of your feats.

Indeed. I'd nominate it as the 7th level feat, or 5th if you got rid of diehard and took harmonic spell earlier.

Quote:
I play PFS, so your home game may be different, but with the +8 you'll eventually be getting to your STR, do you really need to start with an 18? If you lowered it to 16 (which would still be a 24 STR at 4th level while performing) you could bring up your WIS.

This is also a good point. You really don't need a strength that high just yet. Depending on how you choose your familiar, you might want to boost wisdom or dexterity. There will be times where you need a range attack roll.


I don't quite get how Battle song of the People's Revolt is really helping at all.

Since you can't have two performances going at once, you can give them amplified rage, but you can't give them raging song to use with it.... and visa versa.

So what's the point? Or am I missing something.


EvilMinion wrote:

I don't quite get how Battle song of the People's Revolt is really helping at all.

Since you can't have two performances going at once, you can give them amplified rage, but you can't give them raging song to use with it.... and visa versa.

So what's the point? Or am I missing something.

There's still a lot of debate about whether masterpieces count as performances or not. The closest thing to an official ruling is a comment from James Jacobs, indicating that they do count as performances, and can't be maintained at the same time.

So the only thing you're missing is a willingness to use whatever interpretation is more favorable for you.


So this character was a Shamans apprentice... in a civilized city?


@Jodokai
I agreee with your says, we could do something like that:
14+2 14 14 10 8 15
We get +1 will and +1 ref, +1 init +1CA, and we loose +1att +1dmg. Kind of worth it :)
Same with Saving Finale, its a really good spell with the community minded trait we took.

@DeathlessOne:
I won't replace die Hard from the level 3 feat for sure, its really powerfull as standing power ! Such Hero is the last man standing in rough situations and tries to save his allies till death !
This the build I want, you would probably build your Hero diffrently :). [i]Every Legend is unique in it's kind![/it]

@EvilMinion:
Euuuh, never knew that, I though you could add masterpieces to a bardic performance / raging song . And that rounds of rage were burning faster (1/per round for the raging song and 1 extra for the cost of the revolt masterpiece).

@PolydactylPolymath
Ok, I guess we will have to comeback to the valet familiar and get the amplified rage for the Familiar and for the Hero himself at 5th level.
Gettng rid of our level 5 feat, we get back our lv2 spell that can be mirror image. And the extra level 1 known spell can be one from the list i've made include Saving Finale.

@Julix:
Hum? The Hero might have been born in a city and met the shaman just after he left his city in his quest to become a legend ! So It's not contradictory.
Anyway, what's wrong? Every racial trait doesn't mean that all of them happen at the same time, and don't forget that any "ability or even classes" are just mechanic tools. You can create a Warrior RP and playstyle from the wizard class, it's not the most efficiant melee but you can do it.

----------------------------------------------------------
Ok for Saves with the new stats array we got:
lv1:
+2(dex)+2(luck) = +4 Ref
+2(con)+2(luck)+2(base)= +6 Fort (+7 when raging)
-1(wis)+2(luck)+2(base)= +3 Will (+4 when raging)
lv2:
+4 Ref
+6 +(2base)= 8+ Fort (+10 when raging)
+3 Will (+5 when raging)
lv3:
+4 Ref
+8(+1)= +9 Fort (+11 when raging)
+3(+1)= +4 Will (+6 when raging)
lv4:
+4(+1)= +5 Ref
+9 Fort (+11 when raging)
+4 Will (+6 when raging)
lv5:
+5 Ref
+9(+1)= +10 Fort (+12 when raging)
+4(+1)= +5 Will (+7 when raging) (and the raging song also now grants +2will for allies)

So without any magical item, we got a base of +5/+10(+12)/+5(+7) and endurance feat for some extra +4fort, not that bad, when we include every reroll chances.

Quite sad that we can't use revolt and other masterpices and raging song ... we could stack them at the cost of fast burning rage rounds...


Wasn't questioning if it's possible, just wondering if you actually saw that as part of the character's background or just another mechanic. - When you're all done building and get around to playing him, I'd like to hear his backstory (ideally with a roll for Perform (oratory) so I know how much to like it ;) ), if you care to share it :)

Grand Lodge

I would take Bloodrager at 1st level w/Amplified Rage. It's 2 max HP for free, and the build is identical after 3rd. Plus Bloodrager is more effective at level 1 than skald, and you get sweet Amplified Rage going at 2nd.

My backstory was basically raised to be part of a horrible orcish ritual, which was thwarted by some knights from Rahadoum who raised him to be civilized and temper his bloodlust.


Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Rock on.

I took Community Minded as a trait. It hasn't been super relevant, but it's effectively Lingering Performance as a trait.

I'd take the extra rounds FCB for the first few levels, at least until 4th, and probably until 7th. Especially if you're not PFS where you get the free Extra Performance feat instead of Scribe Scroll. At 7th, picking up extra 2nd level spells know is better, there are lots of great 2nd level options, and you can take a bunch of different Battle Song of the People's Revolt versions for different teamwork feats.

For level 1 spells, look at the Triple Time Masterpiece.
For level 2 spells, I'm a fan of Gallant Inspiration. Mirror Image is also solid, your Fast Healing won't completely make up for having a mediocre AC.

Fated Champion or Totem Skald are the two common options. I'm pretty happy with Fated Champion.

Lesser Spirit Totem is your default Rage Power. An extra attack/mini pounce *for every person in your party* that ignores DR is hardcore.

Doesn't community minded make the bonus linger? Doesn't that mean you have rage longer than you maybe want to if any kind of rage cycling is planned? If not, good on you! :)

Another idea: Flagbearer? http://orig11.deviantart.net/928f/f/2013/199/2/5/world_of_warcraft_orc_flag _bearer_by_fariel2012-d6e3pwj.jpg

Also
Instead of tusked take Tribal. "You are especially devoted to your tribe, and within 60 feet of a tribal standard, you gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls and Will saves against fear effects, as if you were the recipient of a bless spell" - worth it if you're carying the banner and thus know it'll be there. :)


@Markov Spiked Chain
It's a good idea to go bloodrager first for the reasons you gave.
It just delays die hard / skald's vigor.
Those extra hp also serves your familiar which will get 1 extra hp.
I will probably get skalds vigor at lv 3, to grab this fast healing 8, and die hard at lv 5.

@Julix:
Flagbearer ? Skald is so featStarved sadly, no room for those kind of feat... Plus it takes 1 hand to carry it.


I checked a little from the question forum about performances and masterpieces, and here is what Jacob answered at this question:

James Jacobs wrote:
Soporific Lotus wrote:
Can a bardic masterpiece be used while maintaining a bardic performance such as inspire courage? Masterpieces obviously consume rounds of performance but its not clear to me if they actually count as bardic performances.

Yes.

here is the Link of the post:

SOOOO come back to business.

I can see it more clearly now.
There is one drawback to masterpieces, it needs it's own activation.
Raging song require 1 standard action until level 7, then depending of the masterpiece it requires extra action do start.
For revolt it also costs 1 standard action until level 7 too.

So until 7th level of skald we need 2 rounds to activate raging song + revolt.
At 7th level of skald, it requires 2 move actions. We might be able to use a standard action for a movement action to cast both of them at the same round.

The other question it raises, does everytime you pick a different revolt teamwork feat requires another revolt song to be started. Which will burn performances rounds really quickly (1 ranging song +1 revolt(aplified rage) +1 revolt(another teamwork feat).
Or 1 activation of the revolt song is enough to activate all of them.


You can mitigate all of the rounds with Lingering Performance and community minded. It will cost you 2 rounds of Performance every 4 rounds, until you hit level 7 where it goes to 2 rounds of Performance every 5 rounds. In PFS not many battles make it past 5 rounds. If you're worried, then just stop the masterpiece and and keep up the inspired rage. In 4 rounds standard action to re-start the masterpiece.


I am more concerned about action economy, than burning performances.

Because if every different battle song that grants a teamwork feat requires it's own standard action, we are screwed. We won't do anything in fights except start / end performances.

Plus lingering performances doesn't work with skald's vigor and that's sad.

If we can start multiple battle songs with only 1 standard action, I might go this way, and wait 4th Skald level to get it by trading a 2nd level spell slot, otherwise, I ll prolly go Amplified rage at lv 1, and won't be able to share it to allies.

I do not want this hero sit behind the whole fight! (But it can be a great support build for sure!)


So keep inspiring rage going, and lingering performance on the masterpiece. Round 1 start inspiring rage, this will get you your benefits, and draw your weapon. Round 2 start the masterpiece and move into position. This will only be a problem until level 7 when you can do both in one round.

Grand Lodge

Metux wrote:

I checked a little from the question forum about performances and masterpieces, and here is what Jacob answered at this question:

James Jacobs wrote:
Soporific Lotus wrote:
Can a bardic masterpiece be used while maintaining a bardic performance such as inspire courage? Masterpieces obviously consume rounds of performance but its not clear to me if they actually count as bardic performances.

Yes.

here is the Link of the post:

As has been pointed out in the other thread, if you read down, you find out that he is saying yes to "they count as bardic performances" not to being able to do both at the same time. You cannot do both.


Do you have a link to where it's pointed out they don't work? I looked two pages after and nothing else was mentioned.

Grand Lodge

link

James Jacobs wrote:
Alexander Nudd wrote:

Hey James,

I'm having some confusion over the rules and a previous comment you made. I was wondering if you could make things clear for us at home.

Years ago

Soporific Lotus wrote:


"Can a bardic masterpiece be used while maintaining a bardic performance such as inspire courage? Masterpieces obviously consume rounds of performance but its not clear to me if they actually count as bardic performances."

This question had the unfortunate problem of having a question followed by a statement to the contrary of the question, namely "do bardic masterpieces count as bardic performances."

You responded with a simple "Yes."

Were you saying that Bardic Masterpieces are not Bardic Performances or that Bardic Masterpieces are bardic performances?

This would clear up a lot of questions for me in a simple sentence.

Bardic masterpieces are performances.

You cannot do two performances at once.

It is the same thread 48000 posts later.

one of many reasons using askJJ for rules rulings is a bad idea. He is usually answering off the cuff and is not very careful with his words.


Julix wrote:
So this character was a Shamans apprentice... in a civilized city?

Urgir in Belkzen, obviously. Though I wouldn't call any part of Belkzen civilized.


Thanks Flite for bringing here the answer from the question thread where I asked it.

So if it's impossible to get 2 performance running, even lingering performance will be stopped if another performance starts

lingering performance wrote:

Prerequisite: Bardic performance class feature.

Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

So there is now way to do what you suggests Jodokai.

Let's come back to the first plan, this Hero will be less support and more brutal first liner.

Feats will be
-Level 1: amplified rage (will kick on at level 2 when the familiar will be able to rage thanks to raging song)
-Level 3: Skald's vigor, so we get a fast healing 8, more standing power than die hard at this point, except if you go from max hp to -1 between your turns (should be tough with 22 con, and even if you, you did your job to soak "some" damage for your allies)
-Level 5: Die hard

I will try to achieve to build tonight, then I ll think longly about a good background :)

Grand Lodge

I really, really recommend against die hard.

Every time I have seen die hard past 8th level or so, it runs something like this:

GM: Okay, the four armed monkey swings at you twice, taking you down to -3. As you drop, it turns to look for someone else to hit.
Player: I have die hard, I'm still standing.
GM: Oh... well, sorry about this. (Monkey takes his remaining swings, PC dies.)


Flite, you know that you have the choice to go unconscious:

Quote:

DieHard

You are especially hard to kill. Not only do your wounds automatically stabilize when grievously injured, but you can remain conscious and continue to act even at death's door.

Prerequisite: Endurance.

Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.

Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hit points is unconscious and dying.

So I don't see anything wrong with this feat, it's just awesome coupled to some regen and defensive abilities like mirror image as suggested by DeathlessOne.

Grand Lodge

Yes, you can, but if you chose to go unconscious, then you pretty much lose most of the benefit of the feat, including the regen fast healing, so it just becomes auto stabilize.


At 8H level if you get something like 24cons (14base +2 item +8 rage) you got something like :
10(lv1 base)+ 7x5(base) + 7(con)*8(level) = 103 hp max HP and you go to -24 hp, for a total effective of 127hp to burn to oneshot you.

So if you get attacked by enough iterative attacks and lets say being flanked from everyside and being focused to hell by spells even with your good saves, you pretty much screwed somewhere... so you better go unconscious as punishment of your mistakes...

A Mighty Hero is not stupid to suicide himself!
But he's brave enough to fight that worthy opponent at death's door, that's what this Hero Inspires! Monkeys? That's for lunch...

Joke's aside, if you really get down in 1 round, you can be sure that your "worthy enough to be your ally" mates will slain everything after whatever things killed you spent every actions to just get you down.

Grand Lodge

You might take Torc of the Primal Song instead of spending a feat on Die Hard. Now that Courageous got nerfed, that's probably my neck slot.

Another thing to consider with Die Hard is that you were talking about taking Guarded Life. In principle, you could get Greater Guarded Life at Skald 6. That'll give you another 12 HP buffer (on top of 24+ Con from Die Hard) between unconscious and dead, and since it's nonlethal, you'll effectively double your Fast Healing. You can get Guarded Life to trigger multiple times with DIehard and Fast Healing.

By a strict reading of the HP rules, you can get Guarded Life to trigger multiple times anyway. Say you've got 100hp and have taken 90 damage. You get hit for 20 (which would reduce you below 0 HP.) Greater Guarded Life triggers for 12. Now you've taken 98 damage, with 12 nonlethal. ("Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. ") If you're hit again for 10, it triggers again and you're at 96 damage with 24 nonlethal. After a round of Fast Healing, you're at 88 damage with 16 nonlethal.

Note that it's not really clear how Diehard interacts with nonlethal damage in general, so this is more "talk to your GM" territory. One reading would be that nonlethal trumps Diehard and even 1 point of nonlethal will knock you out.

Grand Lodge

I wan't talking about one shots, I was talking about mid-long battle, and the enemy has just (finally) gotten you down to -3, but still has two iteratives left. But YMMV and I can see it being useful in some circumstances, but every time I have seen it used in play, the consequences are roughly equivalent to a PC getting healed up to +1 hp, and going back into the front line of the fight.

Are you still going with the goat familiar with Amplified Rage? Because I want to know where you found a Half Orc Goat with the Rage class feature.

(Valet does not have the language in it about "need not meet the Prereqs." If you have a feat, but do not have (or more commonly have lost) the prereqs for the feat, you cannot use the feat.) Unless there is an errata I am not aware of.


FLite wrote:
(Valet does not have the language in it about "need not meet the Prereqs." If you have a feat, but do not have (or more commonly have lost) the prereqs for the feat, you cannot use the feat.) Unless there is an errata I am not aware of.

I disagree. The exact wording is "A Valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats it's master has." If the master has it, you treat it as if the familiar does too.

Grand Lodge

Yes, it has the feat, but not the prereqs. Just as if you took a feat with Min str 13, then took off your strength belt and dropped back to str 12. You have the feat. You get no benefit from it. For comparison, just look at all the powers that have "are consider to have the feat and need not meet the Prereqs."


FLite wrote:
Yes, it has the feat, but not the prereqs. Just as if you took a feat with Min str 13, then took off your strength belt and dropped back to str 12. You have the feat. You get no benefit from it. For comparison, just look at all the powers that have "are consider to have the feat and need not meet the Prereqs."

Okay so the the familiar doesn't get the benefits. If you look at the teamwork feats, you just have to be next to someone with the feat. Familiar has the feat, even if it doesn't benefit from it.

Grand Lodge

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No. Without the prereq, the feat is turned off. You don't benefit from it, directly or indirectly.

If you want your teammates to have the feat, without the prereqs, use one of the powers that allows that. They are generally higher level for a reason.

The Exchange

Amplified Rage-

"Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or flanking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you).

It says nothing about using it.


FLite wrote:

No. Without the prereq, the feat is turned off. You don't benefit from it, directly or indirectly.

If you want your teammates to have the feat, without the prereqs, use one of the powers that allows that. They are generally higher level for a reason.

Hulking Hurler said it, but let me elaborate.

We both agree the Familiar has the Feat correct? Even if it's "turned off" the Familiar still has the Feat. We, also both agree that the Familiar will NOT get the +4 to STR and CON when it rages. Its Amplified Rage is "turned off". However, it does have the feat. If you read Amplified Rage, it doesn't say "Next to someone using the feat" it says "next to someone who has the feat," and the familiar has the feat.

EDIT to Clarify: This means that if the owner of the familiar is a Half-Orc, the owner can use the familiar to get the benefits of Amplified Rage. The owner gets the benefits, not the familiar.

Grand Lodge

If you can convince your GM of that, more power to you, but I would expect a lot of table variation.

Note that the teamwork feat says:

Quote:
Teamwork feats provide no bonus if the listed conditions are not met. Note that allies who are paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise unable to act do not count for the purposes of these feats.

That implies that your teammate must be able to use his feat.

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