From what little I know, both cease and desist comes from latin, the first descends from "cessare" and the second from "desistere". They where both first adopted by french and after by the english.That's correct. I should actually have known that, I studied Latin... I might have something backwards. There was something about Latin, Anglo-French, and continental French that made things like that necessary that I can't quite remember. I think they called it "trilingualism" or something. At any rate, the Normans were a big reason why English is weird and can be a pain in the ass to learn. And why we have a bajillion weird little idioms. Also because British.
It's because the sun never set on the British Empire.
When you trade with a lot of cultures, you develop a new lingua franca.
Lack of pride in the 'purity' of English (unlike, say, the French) means that we chase down other languages in a dark alley, beat them up, and take their stuff. And so English grows and thrives, and other languages fall flat.
mandarin Chinese is considered to be spoken as a primary language by more people then English is.'
It's easier for a Chinese from the north and a Chinese from the south to talk together in English then in 'Chinese.'
==Aelryinth
Same thing happens in India too. I think there's something around 3,000 languages or thereabouts being spoken. So English often ends up being the "common" that gets tossed out if you don't know a region's language. Anywho. Putting those linguistics courses to good use on Paizo forums to thread-jack a monk post. Heeeeeeyah!
Well technically there is no "Chinese" language. It is not even different dialects. The Chinese speak all different languages but the most common are Mandarin and Cantonese.
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That was the whole point of coming out with Pathfinder UnChained!, so that players and DMs now have an alternate set of the characters that needed either the most help, or a massive swing with the nerfbat, a.k.a. the Summoner.
IMO they failed with the monk then. The core monk suffered from a set of problems:
MAD - it is easily the MADest class in the game. Unchained did not address this.
Poor weapon options - the monk weapons are awful and the unarmed strike, while it has good damage dice, fails on so many other levels - specifically that it really makes the monk totally dependent on one 2nd-rate item, the AoMF.
Grab-bag of abilities that just didn't work together.
This had the effect of making a class that could be good defensively moderately awful at offence. All of Paizo's fixes - like the Qingong and the Unchained monk - have focussed on fixing the last item. At no point have they seriously addressed the first two.
The Unchained Monk had an improved flurry (which wasn't, actually, a problem) and the style strikes helped, but the ki powers were largely a hit with a nerf-bat as the majority cost way too much ki, and all the "always active" powers had gone. Then they nerfed Will saves as well, which just does not sit for a supposed disciplined, spiritually strong warrior. So the monk was a little stronger offensively, and weaker defensively, so it remained a weak class overall.
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MAD - it is easily the MADest class in the game. Unchained did not address this.
I'm with you. After all - Paizo had already done this for the other super MAD class from 3.5 - the Paladin. They changed from Wis to Cha for their casting stat.
The KISS method (not necessarily the best - but it sounds good on paper) would be to allow monks to get EITHER their Wis to damage and 1/2 Str OR 1/2 Wis and full Str. This would make Str about the equivilent to monks as Dex is for Palis. (It would also improve monks' offense somewhat - but they already showed their desire for that in unchained.)
Palis need Str/Cha & Con - only a decent dex outside of specific builds.
Monks with the above feature would need Dex/Wis & Con - only a decent str outside of specific builds. (Most would burn a feat on Weapon Finesse and have a Str of 10 or 14.)
Am I the only person who liked the core Pathfinder monk? Go for a STR build and boom it's pretty sweet. I know Demogorgon didn't much like my monk squaring up to him.
EDIT: Str - Con - Wis - Dex - Int - Cha
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Am I the only person who liked the core Pathfinder monk? Go for a STR build and boom it's pretty sweet. I know Demogorgon didn't much like my monk squaring up to him.
Yes.
Yes you are.
The core monk is bad. A STR build is not only inferior in offense to several other core martial classes, but he doesn't even have a solid defense to compensate him.
Man... I... I disagree. I have yet to make a STR based monk who had a hard time with things. My offense got the job done and my defense was "good enough". There is another thread in here going on about CMB/CMD and I invested a few feats into grappling, bull rushing and ki throw and I liked how I could manipulate the battlefield a bit. I honestly don't get the hate.
As a GM dex monks aren't much of an issue... Sure they are a bit hard to hit at lower levels but they're doing garbage damage and your BBEGs can ignore them until last.
Man... I... I disagree. I have yet to make a STR based monk who had a hard time with things. My offense got the job done and my defense was "good enough". There is another thread in here going on about CMB/CMD and I invested a few feats into grappling, bull rushing and ki throw and I liked how I could manipulate the battlefield a bit. I honestly don't get the hate.
As a GM dex monks aren't much of an issue... Sure they are a bit hard to hit at lower levels but they're doing garbage damage and your BBEGs can ignore them until last.
Post a build... because I highly doubt it...
The strongest "base monk" would have to be a Tiefling with Oni Blood to have +2 dex and +2 Wis, dumping str, and utilize an AoMF with the Agile enchantment.
And how is your defense "Good enough"? Monks lack the ability to wear armor. And without dex, your AC is garbage.
At the beginning my AC is trash, I agree. First level it's generally a 13. But, as the campaign goes on and I don't get killed it goes up. Rings of Protection, Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Natural Armor, you know where I'm going with this. Also... I don't dump dex and wis to 8 but they aren't my primary stats. I do invest in belts and whatnot as it goes. All I'm saying is that without a high STR where does your damage come from? Dex based monks have always fallen flat in our group but the str based monks have done just fine.
We do a 76 point allocation for our starting stats and I ran a str 18 dex 12 con 14 int 10 wis 14 cha 8 human monk through the STAP converted to Pathfinder and I not only survived but my character did really well. I grappled, tripped, bull rushed and tossed around baddies a lot, I stood toe to toe with BBEGs and dished out more than I received. I was a monk of the Four Winds, I used Elemental Fist a lot and I chose Aspect of the Carp. I had an AoMF with +2 Holy Bane (evil outsider) and our party wizard gladly polymorphed me into an earth elemental when we got high enough level and I had a blast. I'm not on here to troll, I don't care if you don't think that a build like that could stand the test of a campaign, it did.
Believe it or not.
At the beginning my AC is trash, I agree. First level it's generally a 13. But, as the campaign goes on and I don't get killed it goes up. Rings of Protection, Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Natural Armor, you know where I'm going with this. Also... I don't dump dex and wis to 8 but they aren't my primary stats. I do invest in belts and whatnot as it goes. All I'm saying is that without a high STR where does your damage come from? Dex based monks have always fallen flat in our group but the str based monks have done just fine.
We do a 76 point allocation for our starting stats and I ran a str 18 dex 12 con 14 int 10 wis 14 cha 8 human monk through the STAP converted to Pathfinder and I not only survived but my character did really well. I grappled, tripped, bull rushed and tossed around baddies a lot, I stood toe to toe with BBEGs and dished out more than I received. I was a monk of the Four Winds, I used Elemental Fist a lot and I chose Aspect of the Carp. Our party wizard gladly polymorphed me into an earth elemental when we got high enough level and I had a blast. I'm not on here to troll, I don't care if you don't think that a build like that could stand the test of a campaign, it did.
Believe it or not.
And your bonus to hit?
You are pretty much running around with non enchanted weapons. Monks don't run around with Amulet's of Nat Armor for a reason. The 3/4 BAB needs the boost from AoMF.
And a Dex monk get damage from the Agile Enchantment on an Amulet of Might Fists. It allows them to add dex to damage. If you really want to get fun, you get Snake Style to turn your fists into piercing weapons and take a dip into Swashbuckler.
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I'm not on here to troll, I don't care if you don't think that a build like that could stand the test of a campaign, it did.
Believe it or not.
I believe you. (Though with an AC of 13 - your GM likely specifically avoided swinging at you for a few levels.)
Heck - I'm guessing that there are campaigns where a commoner could do quite well.
But that doesn't make the monk good relative to what you could do in a different class or with a different build. There is really no reason to avoid adding Qinggong to monk - making them not purely Core - and far better.
+natural armor on your aomf for x1.5 the cost... oh and I edited my original post about my STAP monk to incorporate my AoMF. Sorry I forgot it at first. Eh I wouldn't say the GM avoided me but we do play in a 7 man group so there are plenty of targets.
I was thinking "core" as opposed to "unchained"
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Yeah, no one has a problem with archetyped monks. But when you say 'core' most people think 'Core Rulebook options only'.
+natural armor on your aomf for x1.5 the cost...That's not officially allowed. That's a houserule. (Nothing wrong with that - you just can't assume that we know all of your houserules.)
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
+natural armor on your aomf for x1.5 the cost...That's not officially allowed. That's a houserule. (Nothing wrong with that - you just can't assume that we know all of your houserules.)
Hmmm. I was rather certain that you could add a separate enchantment onto an item of the appropriate slot for x1.5 the cost. Much like adding an enchantment onto something of the inappropriate slot costs extra. Like helm of flying instead of boots of flying.
Yeah, no one has a problem with archetyped monks. But when you say 'core' most people think 'Core Rulebook options only'.
+natural armor on your aomf for x1.5 the cost...That's not officially allowed. That's a houserule. (Nothing wrong with that - you just can't assume that we know all of your houserules.)Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
There it is. Thanks!
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+natural armor on your aomf for x1.5 the cost...That's not officially allowed. That's a houserule. (Nothing wrong with that - you just can't assume that we know all of your houserules.)Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
Alright - technically it's an optional rule instead of a houserule - I just don't differentiate the two much - especially in the context of people assuming we know which ones they're using.
That and that is A LOT of your WBL on just your amulet...
After reading most of the posts it seems like, as others have mentioned, that the biggest problem in fixing monks is that there isn't a consensus of what a monk should be. Some people want a super fist-fighter, some people want an exotic weapon fighter, some people want a super sayan.
After ultimate combat I never observed my monk players to be too weak or weighing down the party (that job went to the rogues).
Really, there are going to have to be some things that a monk just isn't good at even if you can think of exceptions in lore. For example; wizards in PF can't normally use swords and suck in melee even though Gandolf THE wizard uses a sword and seems to a high BAB.
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After ultimate combat I never observed my monk players to be too weak or weighing down the party (that job went to the rogues).
No - if you take Qinggong & another good archetype monks can be middling tier, especially since Pummeling Style. A good bit below in most groups - a bit above if the party is buff heavy (their primary weakness is accuracy - so they benefit more than most from boosts to accuracy) and/or leans a bit defensive (few seem to).
For example; wizards in PF can't normally use swords and suck in melee even though Gandolf THE wizard uses a sword and seems to a high BAB.
Well - I think that the general consensus for Gandalf - is that in Pathfinder/D&D terms he's an outsider - not a wizard at all. :P
Well - I think that the general consensus for Gandalf - is that in Pathfinder/D&D terms he's an outsider - not a wizard at all. :PThis is an obsolete notion. The background material makes it clear he's human in body. The setting he's from doesn't even have non-native outsiders: no planes except the prime material. That means Gandalf needs to be built as a human or scion of humanity aasimar with class levels. The ACG finally made this possible. He's a hunter who goes without a companion until he bonds with Shadowfax. He casts spells off the druid list and the highest is Fire Seeds at level 6. He wields a longsword. I think he wears mail armor after the arrival in Rohan, which prevents him from being built as a fighter/druid.
Actually Gandalf is in fact, a type of Angel. He is the same tier of creature as the Balrog (they both are created as minor diefic beings by minor gods.)
Well - I think that the general consensus for Gandalf - is that in Pathfinder/D&D terms he's an outsider - not a wizard at all. :PThis is an obsolete notion. The background material makes it clear he's human in body. The setting he's from doesn't even have non-native outsiders: no planes except the prime material. That means Gandalf needs to be built as a human or scion of humanity aasimar with class levels.
A human except for the whole 2000 year lifespan <roll eyes>
There is absolutely no way Gandalf has Pathfinder mythic tiers.
There is absolutely no way Gandalf has Pathfinder mythic tiers.
Not until after the whole balrog thing at least.
Nah, post-Balrog Gandalf gets a template. Mythic tiers in Pathfinder are an insane power boost, far beyond anything you're going to see in Tolkien's works outside the Silmarillion.
Just to elaborate my point further, think about the other martial classes that use mental stats, the paladin and ranger. Look at how versatile they are, even with archetypes that replace spellcasting, just because their features are more well designed and sinergyse better with their expected attributes and roles, while the monk abilities don't sinergyse(flurry + bonus movement) and only make him MAD. Would giving the monk light armor really ruin the flavor?
However with Mythic, they get REALLY good...
You can
1)move and attack once
2)flurry
3)attack one more time
Not that the class itself addresses this, mainly just saying Mythic rules benefit martials a LOT. :D
Well technically there is no "Chinese" language. It is not even different dialects. The Chinese speak all different languages but the most common are Mandarin and Cantonese.
If you talked like that anywhere in a populated area of China you'd probably get arrested. China doesn't like people claiming china was divided at some point.
China is repressive, but let's not get ridiculous here. It's not like the existence of Cantonese and Mandarin (or whatever they're called natively) is a state secret.Well technically there is no "Chinese" language. It is not even different dialects. The Chinese speak all different languages but the most common are Mandarin and Cantonese.If you talked like that anywhere in a populated area of China you'd probably get arrested. China doesn't like people claiming china was divided at some point.
it's not but if you talked about it in public they could detain you. They're very strict on people spreading talk about not specifically that there's multiple languages, but the why of it for sure. They're official history is that it's been a single country for a VERY long time.
most people don't even know about the protects that happened just a decade or two ago.
Sacred cow? That's Hindu, not Buddhism, monks are Buddhists, they have no sacred cows in their religion. ;)
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Sacred cow? That's Hindu, not Buddhism, monks are Buddhists, they have no sacred cows in their religion. ;)
Lol - whenever I think about the literal meaning being 'sacred cow' - I always think about the rebellion against British rule in India due to the grease covering musket cartridges. It was animal grease - mostly a mixture of beef & pork grease, and part of the loading process was ripping open the paper cartridge with one's teeth. The local British troops (were locals who the British had recruited) were almost entirely Muslim or Hindu, so neither group was happy about having the animal grease mix in their mouths.
It was a minor rebellion, and the British changed the local cartridges to - I believe - a vegetable oil or some such after putting it down. But it's an interesting lesson about cultural misunderstandings making huge problems.
Am I the only person who liked the core Pathfinder monk?
No sir. I like them as well. I ran one as a primary tank for 12 levels of pfs without issue (granted, I did have an archetype, but it was not qui gong). I have played a monk in every edition of dnd that has existed (including 3.0 and 3.5, where I played a grappling monk in living greyhawk who grappled a stone giant who was two CRs higher than my character and choked him out).
I have never really gotten the vitriol that people have for the monk. It's a fun class, they get a boatload of different abilities, and they're a melee class that can still be relevant at the high end of the game.
(as a quick aside, the first time I ever heard someone use the "MAD" acronym, I assumed they were talking about the fact that they didn't like the class and were angry about it. confused the hell outta me before I figured out what it meant).
Honestly, I'm happy with my pfs monk and I've never had anyone even hint that he's anything but a tank. He contributed to groups before ultimate combat came out, and I'm sure that he will continue to do so after there are archetypes for unchained monks. (I did, however, take the free rebuild to change him to an unchained monk after unchained came out. The flurry for the unchained monk is broken as hell).
Sacred cow? That's Hindu, not Buddhism, monks are Buddhists, they have no sacred cows in their religion. ;)
Monks were originally Hindu. Their martial traditions were exported to China, as was Buddha.
==Aelryinth
Martial arts monks of fantasy tradition weren't Hindu, monastic tradition certainly started in India, even martial arts, however, its the Chinese Buddhist Kung Fu monastic tradition we celebrate in our games, not the Hindu Indian monks.
Now interestingly, except for Okinawa and Ryukyu islands tradition of karate, and use of farm tools as martial arts weapons (nunchaku and tonfa, for example) developments against the Japanese imperial incursions, while Japan had Buddhist monks as well, and some practiced various weapons training. The concept of the martial arts monk is not really Japanese, and except for a Ryukyu representation has no real place in a Japan analog fantasy setting. In my development of the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), at no point has the PF monk been introduced as any kind of factor in that setting.
At the beginning my AC is trash, I agree. First level it's generally a 13. But, as the campaign goes on and I don't get killed it goes up. Rings of Protection, Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Natural Armor, you know where I'm going with this. Also... I don't dump dex and wis to 8 but they aren't my primary stats. I do invest in belts and whatnot as it goes. All I'm saying is that without a high STR where does your damage come from? Dex based monks have always fallen flat in our group but the str based monks have done just fine.So your character becomes a collection of magic items with a Leadership feat that gives them a human cohort to carry them to where they might be useful. I've seen odder versions.
Heh... That made me chuckle.
So, in our recent AP we made a small house rule to Amulet of Mighty Fists that made it, in my opinion, completely worth the high cost.
It came from a misreading of the Amulets rules I had early on. The part where is says that an AoMF may have an enchantment without a +1 on it, I misread that it can, on the fly, switch out the numerical bonus for available magical weapon effects on the fists. The bonuses are so expensive compared to the flat bonus available from belts, that without that versatility I almost don't think it would be worth going with AoMF over the AoNA.
The fact that only very late in the game was I able to afford the +2 bonus on the Amulet kept it fairly well balanced.