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Perhaps the information I have is wrong then, because the exact quote that I read is "The faithful of Cayden Cailean hold their patron's two loves, freedom and drink, as the pillars of his church".
Where are you pulling your information from? Ideally outside of the ISG since, yanno... I don't own that.
Sadly, yeah, most of it's from Inner Sea Gods. That is the book going into detail on who the Gods are, after all.
The wiki articles on Cayden Cailean in particular are...not an accurate reflection of the emphasis placed on various things in the actual texts detailing him. They don't get facts wrong mostly (though there's at least one that says his church advocates 'responsible drinking'...which isn't completely wrong, but has untrue implications and is never said in those words in any articles on him), but they do tend emphasize the drinking thing more than it is in the actual Paizo resources detailing him.
Though specifically for bravery being a big thing in his church you don't need to look any further than the corebook itself. He's the God of Freedom, Wine, Ale, and Bravery after all...
ISG is an amazing, amazing book. I highly recommend getting it ASAP.
ISG is an amazing, amazing book. I highly recommend getting it ASAP.I'd like to, but I've found that at the moment I don't have time to go through all of the big books that I've snagged, unless I just do a page at a time while working on something else. And while that strategy works fine for posting on here... not so great for actually trying to read a book.
That, and my every-three-months book budget is set aside for Occult Adventures, because I've got a lot of interest in the Kineticist personally as well as a fellow player running the playtest version of one. And Mark's enough of a tease that he's got me interested in the Occult version of Origins (the name escapes me). ISG I mostly want for myself, so I rate that less important-- the closest I am to needing it is that the same guy is running an Inquisitor of Iomedae at my table, but since he's playing her pretty straight and Inquisitors aren't nearly as bound by their deities as Clerics or Paladins, so I can't rightly say I need it for any game. So... maybe September.
Not that I'm not tempted.
Just the prestige classes alone make the book worth it. I suggest bumping it up your list as far as you can. :D Heck, just buy the PDF versions, you can get more books faster, and have them more portable!
Kestral: there's also this.
Not quite everything, but still a good source.
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Kestral: there's also this.
Not quite everything, but still a good source.
I don't usually like Cayden or the Golarian deities but...
When the song is done, drink the remaining alcohol while mentally composing the song you will sing on the morrow. If a creature is attracted by your song, do your best to engage it in conversation about the merits of Cayden Cailean. If hostilities become inevitable, leap boldly into the fight without hesitation.
I just picture the guy getting up on a roiling battlefield, drinking the dregs from his flask, and looking at the onrushing enemy with a gleam in his eye, and grinning as he happily exclaims, 'Can I tell you about the glories of Cayden the brave?!"
That's got a bit more respect then the usual 'drunk party god moron' he and his clergy get portrayed as.
Also, that DM from the first page...
Hrrrg.
I'm really thinking that Nicomacean ethics, Aristotle and Aquinas, as well as a class on basic logic and implied morality should be a requirement for DMs who have paladins. ...we need like a DM regulatory board like for Hackmaster.
The 'slavers' logic bomb is in the same ken as the 'goblin babies' one, its only a challenge to people who don't really understand what they're talking about.
When dealing with DMs like that, invest in a phylactery of faithfulness, when the situation comes up, consult it, and just look at the DM with your arms crossed.
I've been in similar situations with religious characters, and experienced the same engineer's issue where people can't grok why you character would do that sort of stuff for no material benefit. I had a LG fighter myself who did the tithe thing back in 2e. The party used to get angry about me 'wasting funds.'
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Even had the character been a paladin, a single minor transgression should never cause a fall; the GM would have been wrong there. The relevant part of Torag's version of the Paladin's Code reads:
"I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be."
Since the character wasn't a paladin, strict observance to this code (or not) is a personal choice, not a requirement. I think everyone agrees there should be no consequences to any class abilties no matter what the character does.
However...I would argue that a LG character who professes to follow this code should not be lying as his first option, and that even though the ranger is a fellow party member, treating a CN/evil person who straight up murders someone as "my people" is a bit of a stretch when it seems clear Torag had "dwarves" in mind when he laid out the code, nor do I think he intended it to allow wrongdoers to avoid any and all consequences.
If I were GM in this situation I would caution the character that repeating that kind of behavior would start him on a slow transition away from LG. (I emphasize repetitions of the behavior and slow transition; characters do not change alignments based on a single action, no matter how dramatic.)
Plus, the last time a human trafficker sent a kill-team after him, he killed them all in his underwear.Why was the kill team in his underwear?
I want someone to make an animated series about this guy now...
^He may be apparently doing good, but he's tying the good to a terrible form of corruption, including setting a bad example for those he rescues (potentially setting them up to go from the frying pan into the fire), and he's an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.
You do realize that Cayden's clergy specifically says to enjoy but not over-indulge, right?
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. {. . .}
I know that's what they say, but I don't buy it on Earth, and I don't buy it on Golarion either.
^He may be apparently doing good, but he's tying the good to a terrible form of corruption, including setting a bad example for those he rescues (potentially setting them up to go from the frying pan into the fire), and he's an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.
You do realize that Cayden's clergy specifically says to enjoy but not over-indulge, right?
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. {. . .}
I know that's what they say, but I don't buy it on Earth, and I don't buy it on Golarion either.
I'll bet you're a hoot at parties. ;)
Well I died in that campaign last night. Apparently lawful people are banned from this kings castle...As we passed through the gate I was disintegrated, no save, by a Glyph of Law Bane...You should add this to one of the "Worst GM Ever!" threads in the Gamer Talk forums. Laughing afterwards helps.
I would have been tempted to punch him right in the jibblies.
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My question to the OP is this; did you get to bang his sister? That would be, IMHO, the best CG aligned revenge.
My question to the OP is this; did you get to bang his sister? That would be, IMHO, the best CG aligned revenge.Frankly the sister walking out on the guy is enough in and of itself. When your family ditches you, you've done it wrong.
The fact that the GM stubbornly kept GM'ing even after his sister quit on him in protest of his actions shows that all hope is lost for this guy. He's never going to stop being a bad GM.
I'll bet you're a hoot at parties. ;)^He may be apparently doing good, but he's tying the good to a terrible form of corruption, including setting a bad example for those he rescues (potentially setting them up to go from the frying pan into the fire), and he's an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.
You do realize that Cayden's clergy specifically says to enjoy but not over-indulge, right?
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. {. . .}
I know that's what they say, but I don't buy it on Earth, and I don't buy it on Golarion either.
Not totally wrong. I generally don't go to parties -- not a total ban, but generally they seem amazingly non-useful to me for meeting people that I have something in common with.
* * * * * * * *
My question to the OP is this; did you get to bang his sister? That would be, IMHO, the best CG aligned revenge.
That doesn't give the bad GM's sister much credit -- she shouldn't have to do that to prove that she got fed up with her brother.
Edit: Fix BAD typo.
Oh UnArcaneElection, bless your little baby Jesus heart bud.
I want someone to make an animated series about this guy now...Plus, the last time a human trafficker sent a kill-team after him, he killed them all in his underwear.Why was the kill team in his underwear?
They do! Check out Brock Samson from the Venture Brothers.
Hey, PFS might be the answer. At least then you do not have to deal with passive aggressive runes of law bane. I know organized play might not be for everyone, but it works quite well for a good chunk of people.
I hear plenty of people complaining on these boards about PFS GMs completely changing how encounters are supposed to function.
That doesn't necessarily mean that PFS is as bad as home games or otherwise. It just means that PFS is by no means immune to dodgy GMs that blatantly misuse or outright ignore rules.
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Well, i had a Barbarian who was extremely devout to her patron and the gods of her patron (Gwynharuyff and Selune). The GM awarded my roleplay by allowing me to choose the Book of Exalted Deeds Feats and Prestige Classes (He would not allow in the first place, but my RP convinced him to the contrary).
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Hey, PFS might be the answer. At least then you do not have to deal with passive aggressive runes of law bane. I know organized play might not be for everyone, but it works quite well for a good chunk of people.I hear plenty of people complaining on these boards about PFS GMs completely changing how encounters are supposed to function.
That doesn't necessarily mean that PFS is as bad as home games or otherwise. It just means that PFS is by no means immune to dodgy GMs that blatantly misuse or outright ignore rules.
PFS isn't as good as a good home game, but it's a hell of a lot better than a bad home game or no home game. The consistency of it is it's biggest selling point, I think.
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[off-topic]
@Snowblind: A person who doesn't know is, by definition, agnostic, not atheistic.
Not really. Agnosticism and Atheism are not alternatives. They address different issues. Gnostic and Agnostic refer to a person's knowledge, while Theist and Atheist refer to a person's beliefs. Knowing that someone is Agnostic doesn't tell you anything about whether that person is an Atheist or a Theist. Gnostic Theist, Agnostic Theist, Gnostic Atheist, and Agnostic Atheist are all possible positions.
Anyone who believes that at least one god exists is a Theist, and anyone who does not is an Atheist. Everyone is either a Theist or an Atheist. You either claim that at least one god exists or you don't. Your reasons for believing or not believing are irrelevant. Some people believe in a god and claim to have supernatural knowledge that their god exists (e.g. the sensus divinitatus). These would be Gnostic Theists. Other people say that the existence of gods is unknowable, but choose to believe in at least one anyway. They are Agnostic Theists.
In my experience, the vast majority of Atheists are Agnostic about some god-concepts and Gnostic about others.
For example, consider the claim that the god Momo lives in an alternate dimension. Momo has never interacted with our universe in any way, and it never will. An Atheist might well be Agnostic regarding the existence of Momo.
Alternatively, consider the claim that the god Koko is an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god who doesn't allow bananas to exist in our universe. The fact that bananas do exist, means that few Atheists would be Agnostic regarding the existence of Koko.
[/off-topic]
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About Religion, Churches and Faith in a FANTASY SETTING (IMO)
Many people have a grudge for real life religion, i can understand them, but extend this grudge to fantasy settings is a mistake, here is why:
1 - In a fantasy setting gods actually exists, many religions in real world can also say this, but in most fantasy settings, they are felt every day with the spell given to clerics, with miracles, with his heralds and, sometimes with their flesh and blood presence.
2 - In a fantasy setting, churches really wants to fulfill their gods agenda. In real world churches, churches have their own agenda, sometimes it coincides with the religions goals, but, most often, they serve the clergy alone. But in a fantasy setting, gods punish the clergy who deviates. Erastil really wants rural communities to thrive. Iomedae really wants to purge evil, Sarenrae really wants to help the needed and infirm, Pharasma really have your soul when you die, clerics of those deities who deviates from their dogmas loses their power in the best case scenario (for them).
3 - There is no "Protection Racket" form the churches, thanks to the reason 2 i mentioned (unless there is a god of thievery or of racketery, but that's another story).
4 - Gods are the very embodiment of natural and supernatural things, it must have a god of magic to magic exists, it must have a god of agriculture so crops can grow, it must have a god of death so people can die, and so on - this is a very big deal to make the people from a fantasy setting to be a believer.
5 - Finally, it exists in the real world, were no tangible evidence of the existence of gods exists, it exists in the fantasy settings, people are doctrined to believe in gods, as they are doctrined they need air to breath.
About Religion, Churches and Faith in a FANTASY SETTING (IMO)
Many people have a grudge for real life religion, i can understand them, but extend this grudge to fantasy settings is a mistake, here is why:
In the AD&D 1.x Deities & Demigods book, deities (even those of nominally Good alignment) were explicitly described as having pretty much the same attitudes of the deities of Earth (that have earned such grudges in the first place). The Pathfinder Campaign Setting deities of Good alignment have mitigated this substantially, but it's still hard to get past all the abuse done by real-world religions.
1 - In a fantasy setting gods actually exists, many religions in real world can also say this, but in most fantasy settings, they are felt every day with the spell given to clerics, with miracles, with his heralds and, sometimes with their flesh and blood presence.
Interesting question of what would happen if actual divine spellcasters showed up on Earth; the fundamentalists of the existing religions were already thinking of this in the late 1970s and 1980s when they were going absolutely nuts trying to ban D&D (you'd think they thought this was a real threat . . .).
2 - In a fantasy setting, churches really wants to fulfill their gods agenda. In real world churches, churches have their own agenda, sometimes it coincides with the religions goals, but, most often, they serve the clergy alone. But in a fantasy setting, gods punish the clergy who deviates. Erastil really wants rural communities to thrive. Iomedae really wants to purge evil, Sarenrae really wants to help the needed and infirm, Pharasma really have your soul when you die, clerics of those deities who deviates from their dogmas loses their power in the best case scenario (for them).
And so it is here -- just remember that advertised goals and actual goals are often different.
3 - There is no "Protection Racket" form the churches, thanks to the reason 2 i mentioned (unless there is a god of thievery or of racketery, but that's another story).
Funny you should mention that . . .
4 - Gods are the very embodiment of natural and supernatural things, it must have a god of magic to magic exists, it must have a god of agriculture so crops can grow, it must have a god of death so people can die, and so on - this is a very big deal to make the people from a fantasy setting to be a believer.
Alternatively, you don't have to have deities to have these things, but the existence of these things guarantees that sooner or later deities of these things will show up. Market demand and all that . . .
5 - Finally, it exists in the real world, were no tangible evidence of the existence of gods exists, it exists in the fantasy settings, people are doctrined to believe in gods, as they are doctrined they need air to breath.
Rahadoum, Bachuan, and Touvette would be of interest, if only they weren't ruled by jerks.
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4 - Gods are the very embodiment of natural and supernatural things, it must have a god of magic to magic exists, it must have a god of agriculture so crops can grow, it must have a god of death so people can die, and so on - this is a very big deal to make the people from a fantasy setting to be a believer.
Your other points are solid, but this is simply completely untrue in Golarion. Just for the record.
4 - Gods are the very embodiment of natural and supernatural things, it must have a god of magic to magic exists, it must have a god of agriculture so crops can grow, it must have a god of death so people can die, and so on - this is a very big deal to make the people from a fantasy setting to be a believer.Your other points are solid, but this is simply completely untrue in Golarion. Just for the record.
Indeed; Nethys was an extremely powerful Wizard before he was the God of Magic, after all.
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I was not being specific about Golarion cosmology, but fantasy cosmology in general, Not Remembered Kingdoms for instance.
UnArcane Election, most of your points are valid for a real world religion debate, and i'm never in the mood to discuss this. But, lets go.
Interesting question of what would happen if actual divine spellcasters showed up on Earth; the fundamentalists of the existing religions were already thinking of this in the late 1970s and 1980s when they were going absolutely nuts trying to ban D&D (you'd think they thought this was a real threat . . .).
1 - Uh, nice to know, i guess.
And so it is here -- just remember that advertised goals and actual goals are often different.
In most fantasy settings the advertised goal IS the actual goal, there are some exceptions? Of course!
Funny you should mention that . . .
Yeah, the parenthesis part of my argument, thanks to exemplify it!
Alternatively, you don't have to have deities to have these things, but the existence of these things guarantees that sooner or later deities of these things will show up. Market demand and all that . . .
Yeah, agree. But most fantasy settings have, even home brewed campaigns have - and hey! home brewed do not target market! But, as Deadmanwalking and Arachnofiend pointed, Golarion don't do this! Nice huh?
Rahadoum, Bachuan, and Touvette would be of interest, if only they weren't ruled by jerks.
yeah, exceptions are always nice!
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As an atheist, I would absolutely be devoutly religious in Golatrion. And that's not just to say I would accept the gods as fact - any idiot in that world SHOULD - but would follow one whose ideals matched my own closely.
That's why I really hate misotheistic (NOT atheistic! Please Paizo, if ever Rahadoum gets another treatment, please change that. Atheists struggle with stereotypes of just being bitter god haters and slapping the title on any believer with a chip on their shoulder does not help.) societies in D&D and Pathfinder. It's an unlimited pantheon of deities who directly aid mortals in their lives! You can't find one you like?!
In Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Elsa God-Hater was the only NPC you came across with this attitude, and it was a unique enough view that she took on a name after it. Even in Tamriel, gods are active enough that most people are not stupid enough to not st least pay lip service to SOMETHING, and those gods are far less involved than on Golarion.
/rant
But the OPs GM sounds terrible. Even as someone who GMs a lot and does not care for Paladins in my games (nothing against the nature of the class - it's just when it breaks something, it breaks it HARD.) I'd have to walk away from that game on principle. This is obviously one of those GMs who delights in taking powers away and, when he couldn't, punished a player in the most vindictive way possible.
As an atheist, I would absolutely be devoutly religious in Golatrion. And that's not just to say I would accept the gods as fact - any idiot in that world SHOULD - but would follow one whose ideals matched my own closely.
That's why I really hate misotheistic (NOT atheistic! Please Paizo, if ever Rahadoum gets another treatment, please change that. Atheists struggle with stereotypes of just being bitter god haters and slapping the title on any believer with a chip on their shoulder does not help.) societies in D&D and Pathfinder. It's an unlimited pantheon of deities who directly aid mortals in their lives! You can't find one you like?!
{. . .}
If you dumped ME on Golarion, as a bitter god-hater, I wouldn't be religious, but I would have to admit that a small but noticeable subset of Golarion deities are less hateable than deities portrayed elsewhere, including Earth. On the other hand, for making characters to play in Golarion (assuming that I don't get personally dumped there), I take it as a roleplaying challenge to have a decent subset of them be truly devoted to one or more of the Golarion deities. (Still have to actually get into a PbP, but that's another matter.)
With respect to Rahadoum itself, I know that James Jacobs has already discounted this, but I like the idea that the reason they banned ALL religion instead of just the evil ones is that the Cult of the Dawnflower tried to put an end to slavery, and the political masters and their friends in Rahadoum DIDN'T LIKE THAT. This also resulted in enormous damage to the church of Sarenrae, resulting in many of her worshippers having no opposition to or even engaging in slavery.
With respect to Paladins, my problem with them is that Pathfinder DIDN'T slay the D&D Sacred Cow of Paladins and Antipaladins being only Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil, and didn't jump at the opportunity presented in D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana to make these into a prestige class (the way Kirthfinder does).
it's not really about the reward so much as, "what class would the guy be?". it just makes the most sense usually that he would be some divine caster(i'm counting a paladin here as well) and not some "mere" fighter.Generally that's what I see, Bandw2.
It's more rare for people to make characters with faith that doesn't reward them mechanically.
Well, a lot of very religious dudes in the Crusades are just "mere" fighters. Like, all of them.
I have a PFS character who is a very devout Abadar follower, and he's a fighter. You don't need to be part of the clergy to go to tje church. In fact, most churches have ONE priest and a full room of devout followers who aren't prt of the clergy.
This making me want to play a bard who has bluff, diplomacy, knowledge religion, knowledge geography, knowledge local, and every holy symbol available. The bard would go to village and be a cleric from their predominate deity. Tell sermons and the like for a little bit of coin.
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Hopefully you don't do so with a GM like the one the OP is discussing. He seems likely to have those offended gods sick their attack Paladins on you.What Paladins? Every Paladin in that world fell long ago.
paladin...paladin...oh, you mean that upgraded warrior class with better saves, and they get a weird ability that boosts their attacks during 1st level before they fight their first goblins and find the inevitable goblins babies?
Not the perfectly upright and Just and Noble and Pure Paladins that are NPC's. They die rather than fall when faced with a choice [yet for some strange reason they still seem plentiful in number...]Hopefully you don't do so with a GM like the one the OP is discussing. He seems likely to have those offended gods sick their attack Paladins on you.What Paladins? Every Paladin in that world fell long ago.
If nothing else, Martyrs are great PR.
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It's an unlimited pantheon of deities who directly aid mortals in their lives! You can't find one you like?!
But they DON'T aid mortals, even according to their worldview. They only do so based on contract: IF you do this and that, THEN I may aid you. I don't think in the Pathfinder multiverse that gods require worshipers for their power or to grant spells, so they don't even have that as an excuse.
In short, no matter what morality a god says they have, they are all, in the end, selfish jerks who only help people who help the god first, or through those people.
So most good people will look at that and say "this guy is not very good, so why ally with him, and even if I ally temporarily I cannot worship such a selfish being"
Even Pharasma routes people for eternal punishment for a few years of not being good. That is pretty harsh relative to what they did when alive. Even though Pharasma would say "hey, I'm just keeping balance, not punishing anyone"
It's an unlimited pantheon of deities who directly aid mortals in their lives! You can't find one you like?!
But they DON'T aid mortals, even according to their worldview. They only do so based on contract: IF you do this and that, THEN I may aid you. I don't think in the Pathfinder multiverse that gods require worshipers for their power or to grant spells, so they don't even have that as an excuse.
In short, no matter what morality a god says they have, they are all, in the end, selfish jerks who only help people who help the god first, or through those people.
So most good people will look at that and say "this guy is not very good, so why ally with him, and even if I ally temporarily I cannot worship such a selfish being"
Even Pharasma routes people for eternal punishment for a few years of not being good. That is pretty harsh relative to what they did when alive. Even though Pharasma would say "hey, I'm just keeping balance, not punishing anyone"
Let's assume this is true. In this event, a person wouldn't be an atheist (belief that gods do not exist); they are fully aware that gods exist and just disagree with them. This is more akin to an anti-theist than an atheist.
To me, an atheist in the Pathfinder world would be someone who recognizes these powerful brings that others call "gods" actually do exist and are extremely powerful, but they're just individuals who acquired power - they're not actual gods. Real gods don't exist. That's how I would view an atheist in the PF universe. What do you think?
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The ironic part about this whole thing is that the gods in Golarion seem to be extremely tolerant of straying and heresies at times if it fits their machinations or perhaps even whims. For instance, Sarenrae might allow a heresy to develop and continue granting those priests spells. Why might remain unknown, or it could be because she wants to expand into this new area (domain) or simply to test the faithfulness of the rest of her church in punishing heretics. Otherwise, how can you explain some of the cleric archetypes? I really think GMs should lighten up in this area and allow players a bit more room to move about than they sometimes seem to.
Also, for paladins, which obviously this guy is not, I think its helpful for there to be two standings, the one of the paladin with his church hierarchy, and the one with his god. As long as he is good one of the two, I think the god uses that channel to tap him on the shoulder and bring him back into the fold. If he offends both, well, then he probably needs an atonement. IMHO, half the reason paladins are played as annoying jerks is often to try and prevent A-R GMs from having them fall for jaywalking.
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Well, a lot of very religious dudes in the Crusades are just "mere" fighters. Like, all of them.it's not really about the reward so much as, "what class would the guy be?". it just makes the most sense usually that he would be some divine caster(i'm counting a paladin here as well) and not some "mere" fighter.Generally that's what I see, Bandw2.
It's more rare for people to make characters with faith that doesn't reward them mechanically.
yeah, and they also were there because of the auto-go-to-heaven-for-free card. not because they were devoutly religious, I mean these ARE the type of people that sacked Constantinople.
Hopefully you don't do so with a GM like the one the OP is discussing. He seems likely to have those offended gods sick their attack Paladins on you.What Paladins? Every Paladin in that world fell long ago.
Some say they're still fallin' to this day.
I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.
The character will NEVER be a Cleric (WIS 7) but does have a holy symbol, and follows many strictures/habits of the faith.
Once in a blue moon, as a GM I would reward this kind of RP dedication by having the god grant a minor boon (randomly heal in combat, vision during a dream etc).
It helps with immersion in the game I think. With my Swashbuckler, I'm having the character trying to convince the party that Cayden is just the neatest of the gods, and deserves to be worshiped.
If the GM told me I had 'fallen' I would probably slap him and walk out. Or tell him that my character found her own way to pray, and no one could say otherwise...
OP, your GM sounds like a bag of dicks.
If I had my way, Paladins, Clerics, and the like would not exist, and this style of divine intervention would be the norm. Divine "spellcasting" always seemed weird to me. Hey Bob, how about the take your gods divinely granted mojo and bottle it or make some wands with it?