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As a note: total darkness is not common, if there us a shadow he is fine.
This is unbuffed. He usually fought with greater heroism, haste, bardsong, etc up. That adds a lot of DPR IMO.
Also I noticed a few people not reading the statblock and missing hellcat stealth, evasion, and hide in plain sight.
So he was doing well while buffed? Darn that vile martial!!!!!!! The very notion of having buffs stacked and doing well, I mean the nerve!
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You're right that by RAW it does, though I think many of us consider that interpretation silly.If he's standing in the middle of a field it doesn't make him difficult to see at all. It simply makes him difficult to attack accurately because his form is blurry. It doesn't make conceptual sense to treat it as concealment which allows stealth, at least in my opinion.
*Shrug* - I can see that argument - but I think of it being sort of the similar to the idea that high HP means that you can be chopped in the face with an axe a couple dozen times.
I like one of the systems (star wars I think or battletech) where actual damage starts after your luck runs out. Makes the dozens of arrows nearly missing you then one last hit puts you under.
Seems like Daylight or some heighten light spell would shut him down. His Hide in Plain Sight from Shadowdancer depends on dim light to work and is the power that allows him to hide with no cover as long as he is near dim light..
While Hellcat Stealth allows him to hide in good light conditions while being observed it is inherently incompatible with a Shadowdancer's version of Hide in Plain Sight. Hellcat stealth requires bright illumination to work so he would still need some form of cover to stealth with.
If you have bright light, Hellcat Stealth works but not Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight so he cannot hide without cover and cannot 5 foot step out of melee and hide. He would still need cover.
If there is no light then his Shadowdancer H.I.P.S. works but the Hellcat stealth is meaningless.
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I like one of the systems (star wars I think or battletech) where actual damage starts after your luck runs out. Makes the dozens of arrows nearly missing you then one last hit puts you under.
You're right that by RAW it does, though I think many of us consider that interpretation silly.If he's standing in the middle of a field it doesn't make him difficult to see at all. It simply makes him difficult to attack accurately because his form is blurry. It doesn't make conceptual sense to treat it as concealment which allows stealth, at least in my opinion.
*Shrug* - I can see that argument - but I think of it being sort of the similar to the idea that high HP means that you can be chopped in the face with an axe a couple dozen times.
It was one of the d20 versions of Star Wars. The luck/hp thing was cool in theory - but you could get hit straight to the hp with a crit. It got annoying, and in practice was far more trouble than it was worth. Just remember that HP is abstract and it doesn't mean actually getting hit.
(Plus that system had Jedi/Martial disparity at least as bad as Pathfinder's caster/martial, only it was more noticeable because they were doing pretty much the same jobs.)
The feat cloak dance from psionics unleashed can be strong for a stealth pc because it gives you concealment with a move action. So move action clak dance, move action to move stealthed.
The question would just be whether you can retain stealth by using it every turn or not.
i think i miss something here.
how does he also take a full round action and hide?
i know the general rule is you dont take any action to hide if you do it while moving BUT the sniping rule say if you start hiden and want to attack and hide in the smae round you can only attack once and then you need to use a move action to hide.
"using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."
(ignore the range part i asume they never thought some1 could snipe in melee, that is why sniping has also to be 10 ft away).
unless he takes dampen presence, blindsight/blindsense nulls him pretty nicely if it's that big an issue even after all of the suggested responses in this thread.
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stuffyou shoukd probably reread what helkcat stealth does. The combo of hellcat stealth and shadowdancer allows him to make stealth checks at any time
So, he specialized in Stealth, went PrC to maximize it, and so he's really good at it, at the cost of being worse at other things. That's so bad?
It should be possible to be great at a skill, and have that skill have a very large effect on the game. He went all-in for Stealth, and so he deserves the benefits of it.
/this
Let him have his Stealth-Schtick.
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Meanwhile at level 16 the Fullcasters bend reality to their will, create Earthquakes, conjure Thunderstorms, mentally ensalve opponents, teleport across continets and fly over battlefields while rainig doom down from the sky.
But whoe betide if a martial is hidden when the monsters are on their turns and have to attack the other group members because they cant find this medium-damage-dealer....
I dont undestand the problem. You allow him to re hide with a 5 foot step that seems a little home made to me but at level 16 you are expected to be good and with one little house rule he is a good contributer Against most most baddies. Not bad for a rogue wanna be:) unless he Can one round a Lone marilith it Can read a action and try to garb him with Tail attack or telekinesis. Not a likely succes but a chance. And thanks for sharing this makes me wanna play a shadow dancer:)
stuffyou shoukd probably reread what helkcat stealth does. The combo of hellcat stealth and shadowdancer allows him to make stealth checks at any time
You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty.
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Why don't you point out what I am missing then? Normally stealth requires you to have cover and to not be directly observed in order to make stealth checks.
The Shadowdancers power removes both restrictions when within 10 feet of an area of dim light. If your not within 10 feet of dim light the whole ability goes away.
The Hellcat Stealth power only affects stealth when in normal or bright light and does not remove the normal stealth requirement of needing cover, it only nullifies the requirement to be unobserved. Only the shadowdancer ability allows that and it is at odds with the light conditions affected by the Hellcat Stealth.
The only way these could be used together, simultaneously, is if your somehow within 10 feet of Dim Light while currently being in a patch of normal illumination and even then the hellcat stealth would make it HARDER to stealth than just using Shadowdancer H.I.P.S. on it's own.
I might add that making a melee attack automatically breaks stealth. The only way to maintain stealth while attacking is to "snipe" which is a ranged attack and even then it requires a move action to re-stealth. So if you are allowing them to re-stealth after a melee attack then it should at the very least take a move action to do so.
So if you are allowing them to re-stealth after a melee attack then it should at the very least take a move action to do so.
I believe the OP was letting the 5 foot step count as 'movement' for that purpose.
In any case Sniping only works with Ranged weapons.
That is the point there is no way to re-stealth after a melee attack. Sniping only works for ranged
Edit: Also if I understand the rules correctly you can not take a move action with a five foot step. So you could not re-stealth after sniping and take a five foot step.
That is the point there is no way to re-stealth after a melee attack. Sniping only works for ranged
There is with the Shadowdancers hide in plain sight ability while within 10 feet of dim light.
It allows you to stealth while under direct observation and removes the need for cover to use stealth. Hence the SD melee's, 5 foot steps out of melee and 'shadowstealths in plain sight' when 10 feet from the enemy.
This of course only works if the SD is within 10 feet of dim light when he makes the stealth check and it is independent of the light level of the square he is actually in.
I guess if that is the case then I would still make the PC use a move action to re-stealth which would not work with a five foot step. I don't see how it would require a move action to re-stealth after ranged attack but not after a melee attack. I would also probably tag on the sniping penalty of -20. There are of course no rules for stealthing after melee but that is how I would run it.
Another option is glitterdust. 2nd level spell has a ten foot radius so your NPCs could cast where he was and still have a good chance of hitting him. Will negates blindness but not actual glitter and gives a -40 to stealth checks. Since is will is so low odds are you will blind him as well
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Another option is glitterdust. 2nd level spell has a ten foot radius so your NPCs could cast where he was and still have a good chance of hitting him. Will negates blindness but not actual glitter and gives a -40 to stealth checks. Since is will is so low odds are you will blind him as well
Here we go. Second level spell that puts the dirty martial back in his place. Sure, you may have to guesstimate where he is, but if you're an almighty wizard or other high intelligence creature, this should not be a problem.
You are missing how the stealth skill works
Then why does the Shadowdancers HIPS specifically call out BOTH factors? Because both are needed. If all you need is to be able to hide while being observed it would not need to mention the additional benfit, a benfit you still do NOT get from Hellcat Stealth.
Even using bluff to make an opening where the opponent is considered to be not observing you requires you to get to cover quickly to actually be able to stealth.
Make a post in the rules forum if you disagree, I am not going to discuss it more.
Your choice.
This is one of those abilities that is really cool flavor-wise, and a real pain mechanically. This ability lends itself to abuse.
I had a player who was a Shadowdancer, and he kept saying: "Okay, I go invisible!" And I'd say: "You're NOT invisible!" But, for all intents and purposes, he was. Oi!
It takes a good working knowledge of the Stealth rules, as well as Perception, etc., and gets compounded by characters with ridiculously high Stealth scores.