wait so you're saying it isn't a DC of 15 to jump diagonally 2 squares?I covered this as well.Nefreet the problem with your interpretation is that it seems arbitrary based on where a pit falls in relation to squares. If a pit is placed in such a way that it fits a in a 2x2 square arangement exactly it would take a DC 15 check to jump but if it straddles 6 squares by resting in the middle of the outer sides them even though more squares have a pit the jump DC is now 10 since I have moved 2 squares and thus am in a safe square.let's not forget the 5ft diameter hole that requires a DC 15 to jump diagonally and DC 10 to jump straight.Get the grid out of your head. I don't know how many times I've said this, now.
Search my recent comments for the word "diagonal".
then.... i'm confused why do you say 10ft pits require 15 for their DC?
if anything other than the grid.
Why do you constantly ignore questions that demonstrate the issue with your method?I have not ignored a single one. It may take several comments before I reply, but I'm not ignoring anything.
Odds are I've already answered it.
you ignored my statement on why it should be DC 10 over 11. you said it was interesting thought experiment, said he could jump 1 foot off the edge and then teleport, but i specifically did not mention anything about jumping. you outright did not actually reference anything i said even when quoting my material.
that's explicitly ignoring if i've ever seen.
This isn't the first rule to require a FAQ due to poor wording.Nor will it be the last.
i don't think this requires a FAQ, nothings broken, GMs just have different opinions on what the end DC should be, the system still works.
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Remember folks, if the answer is anything but DC 10, then it's because a wizard cast create pit and Paizo hates martials.
Never said it does, old chap. ;)i don't think this requires a FAQThis isn't the first rule to require a FAQ due to poor wording.Nor will it be the last.
just piggy backing on your comment
What is the DC to leap across a ten foot wide pit?
This is a FAQ request.
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossedCommon answers are 10, 11, and 15.
edit: Here's Quadstriker's interpretation of my Command answers. I didn't stop to think that everyone may not be aware of why those are "common answers".
Common interpretations:
10: The pit is 10 feet. I jump 10 feet. DC 10 I clear the pit.
11: The pit is 10 feet. To cross it I have to jump a greater distance than 10 feet. Therefore 11 feet must be jumped. DC 11 I clear the pit.
15: The pit is 10 feet. In order to cross the pit (2 squares wide) I must jump from my square to a square 3 squares away. 3 squares is 15 feet. Therefore 15 feet must be jumped. DC 15 I clear the pit.
look how far we've come people!
I sure hopes the 10ft jump for 10DC gets more votes :p
I know, right?
i don't think this requires a FAQ, nothings broken, GMs just have different opinions on what the end DC should be, the system still works.This isn't the first rule to require a FAQ due to poor wording.Nor will it be the last.
Having a different opinion of what the answer is, is the exact definition of the rule requiring clarification.
Having a different opinion on what it SHOULD be, is another matter.
i don't think this requires a FAQ, nothings broken, GMs just have different opinions on what the end DC should be, the system still works.This isn't the first rule to require a FAQ due to poor wording.Nor will it be the last.Having a different opinion of what the answer is, is the exact definition of the rule requiring clarification.
Having a different opinion on what it SHOULD be, is another matter.
it's more like when you get s#++ like classes referencing stuff that isn't there, or other issues. this isn't a FAQ because GMs very quickly and easily decide what they think the DC should be.
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depends when you jumped and if you still decided to move after you got 20 feet from where you started.I run, 20ft, and during that movement, I choose to jump, 5ft.
No pit, or obstacle, but simply for the hell of it.
Do I move, in total, 20ft, or 25ft?
Why is that? I can jump as part of movement.
If I decide to move, 20ft, and during that movement, I decide that part of that movement, will be jumping, 5ft.
So, 15ft of that movement, is spent, not jumping, and 5ft of it, is jumping.
Now, according to the expanded DC side of this, the DC is 20, as that is the total amount of distance. I say, it's DC 5, as that is distance spent, actually jumping.
My view, follows the listed DCs, and doesn't require a me to be jumping the whole time.
Let me explain the movement, I listed above, showing the entire movement.
10ft not jumping, +5ft jumping, +5ft not jumping. Total distance moved = 20ft. Acrobatics DC required during this movement = DC 5.
To surmise: Acrobatics checks made to jump horizontally, require a check equal to the distance moved whilst jumping, and not the distance moved during the entire move action. DC = distance being jumped.
i agree with you, but i was saying if you jumped at the end 5 feet, weird stuff would happen. like if you only had 20 ft movement you'd pause in teh air.
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Oh my god there have been 200 messages since I last checked guys this is probably literally the stupidest argument we've ever had.
This thread is being brought to you by the same dude who started this little gem
No, no, I liked that thread. At least it made people think interesting questions.
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But that *is* the distance where you land.You forgot "in the jump". The jump does not encompass all of your movement for the round.Again, and according to the skill description for Acrobatics, "the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump".
Distance traveled, not the distance of the obstacle.
Actually, no.
If your Acrobatics check for a running jump is 10, you have cleared 10', so you land in the 11th foot. I think that is where you missed the boat. Or the pit, actually.
If the pit is 10' wide, do you need to CLEAR 10', or 11'?
You only need to CLEAR the 10' width of the pit. The DC is equal to the distance CLEARed.
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Oh my god there have been 200 messages since I last checked guys this is probably literally the stupidest argument we've ever had.
I agree, this thing's doubled in size since last night.
Edit: I almost tried to make a simple point out of this again, but I made my acrobatics check to avoid that pit.
Is that a challenge?
I think it is, quickly we need to come up with ideas.
I have to go to work.
Over the course of these last several pages (though really since the beginning) I've been asked the same questions over and over. It's getting rather frustrating. Rather than me going back and linking or quoting myself every time, how about this:
If you have a question for me that you think I haven't answered, you have two options: search my posts for keywords, or go back and read through this thread.
I get that this is a big thread, but honestly, if you feel you have a question that hasn't been answered, odds are that you just haven't been keeping up. Only once was I not consistent with my answers, and I caught the error after a few posts.
Take the time, now, to go back through this thread. I guarantee it will answer any questions you may have.
New question: what page do I find modifiers to acrobatics checks based on creature size?
Is that a challenge?I think it is, quickly we need to come up with ideas.Oh oh!! I got one!
--> Do PCs need underpants when wearing armor?
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What if demon challenges a paladin to jump over a 10 ft wide pit, the paladin gets a running start, and the paladin gets an 11 for her acrobatics skill.
Does the paladin fall?
What if demon challenges a paladin to jump over a 10 ft wide pit, the paladin gets a running start, and the paladin gets an 11 for her acrobatics skill.
Does the paladin fall?
10/10 would read again.
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What if demon challenges a paladin to jump over a 10 ft wide pit, the paladin gets a running start, and the paladin gets an 11 for her acrobatics skill.
Does the paladin fall?
Only if he lands on a grappling succubus.
A) StFrancisss, you win this thread.
B) My interpretation of the jumping rules in this situation (this argument did come up at a table) is this: The DC to cross the pit is 10. HOWEVER, you need to spend 15 feet of movement doing so. If you don't have the extra five feet of (non-jumping) movement to legally move into the next square after your jump, then you fall.
Yes, this is unrealistic.
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It all comes down to poorly written rules:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal).and
..the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump...Do not mean the same thing. That is the crux of the +1 argument. The former is clearly a toe-to-heel type of measurement. The latter is also clearly a toe-to-toe measurement, which therefore requires a +1' or something so that a character does not fail to clear the gap.
This isn't the first rule to require a FAQ due to poor wording. I would suggest a table choose which part of the rule to give more credence to and wait for official clarification.
Just sitting down through the last 31 comments, but I had to pause to thank you for this (and your post right before it).
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wait so you're saying it isn't a DC of 15 to jump diagonally 2 squares?I covered this as well.Nefreet the problem with your interpretation is that it seems arbitrary based on where a pit falls in relation to squares. If a pit is placed in such a way that it fits a in a 2x2 square arangement exactly it would take a DC 15 check to jump but if it straddles 6 squares by resting in the middle of the outer sides them even though more squares have a pit the jump DC is now 10 since I have moved 2 squares and thus am in a safe square.let's not forget the 5ft diameter hole that requires a DC 15 to jump diagonally and DC 10 to jump straight.Get the grid out of your head. I don't know how many times I've said this, now.
Search my recent comments for the word "diagonal".
then.... i'm confused why do you say 10ft pits require 15 for their DC?
if anything other than the grid.
Because, in Pathfinder, medium-sized creatures take up a 5ft space, regardless of whether there's a grid or not.
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Why do you constantly ignore questions that demonstrate the issue with your method?I have not ignored a single one. It may take several comments before I reply, but I'm not ignoring anything.
Odds are I've already answered it.
you ignored my statement on why it should be DC 10 over 11. you said it was interesting thought experiment, said he could jump 1 foot off the edge and then teleport, but i specifically did not mention anything about jumping. you outright did not actually reference anything i said even when quoting my material.
that's explicitly ignoring if i've ever seen.
I would ask that your accusatory tone be removed from this discussion.
I can only address so many comments at one time.
I am not lying or being deceitful. I wholeheartedly believe in my position and will defend it, just as you are with yours.
If you feel I'm ignoring something, it could be because: 1) I've already answered it or something like it earlier, 2) It's irrelevant to the discussion being had, or 3) It got lost in the shuffle of 10 comments being posted in one minute's time.
I'm sitting down and reading through the comments of the last 8 hours now. If something new has come up, I'll be replying to it.
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Last reply, and then I really have to take off.
I've stated recently that I'm open to using 1ft increments in place of 5ft increments.
But that really doesn't change anything.
You still need to jump from point A, and land in point B.
Acrobatics describes this as "distance traveled".
If you have a 10ft pit, jumping 10ft only lands you in the pit.
You're going to need to jump over the pit.
If you're using 1ft increments, that means 11ft of distance.
If you're using 5ft increments, that means 15ft of distance.
Grid or no grid. You have to land somewhere.
Ok, I see what's going on.
The question is whether the jumping individual has to "leave the ground" before reaching the edge. Nefreet is basically saying that the jumper has to be solidly (and fully) on the ground at the point of takeoff and landing, and thus the actual distance jumped has to be notably larger than the size of the gap.
Crazy how long it's taken for me to get that point across, huh?
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This thread is being brought to you by the same dude who started this little gem
While it's the same individual who created each thread, claudekennilol created this thread in response to my comments over in the PFS forum, so if anyone's to blame for this, you can point squarely at me (and for helping it blossom into the 700+ post thread that it has become).
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I agree, this thing's doubled in size since last night.Oh my god there have been 200 messages since I last checked guys this is probably literally the stupidest argument we've ever had.
Right, everyone, we are now discussing the DC to jump over a 20' pit. Please adjust your conversations accordingly.
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New question: what page do I find modifiers to acrobatics checks based on creature size?I have to go to work.
Over the course of these last several pages (though really since the beginning) I've been asked the same questions over and over. It's getting rather frustrating. Rather than me going back and linking or quoting myself every time, how about this:
If you have a question for me that you think I haven't answered, you have two options: search my posts for keywords, or go back and read through this thread.
I get that this is a big thread, but honestly, if you feel you have a question that hasn't been answered, odds are that you just haven't been keeping up. Only once was I not consistent with my answers, and I caught the error after a few posts.
Take the time, now, to go back through this thread. I guarantee it will answer any questions you may have.
Okay. Let me address this once and for all (hopefully).
I am of the belief that an Acrobatics check determines the distance one travels in a jump. Those are the words stated in the Acrobatics description, and I support them.
Others believe that an Acrobatics check determines the distance of the obstacle to be crossed. Those are the words stated in the Acrobatics description, and people support them.
If you are firmly in this second camp, then creature size doesn't matter at all. All that matters is the distance of the obstacle to be crossed.
If you are firmly in the first camp, then you must account for the creature's space when determining total distance traveled, just as though the creature had walked/swam/climbed/whatever. Whether a colossal creature is jumping a 5ft pit or walking across a 5ft patch of bare earth, it must travel 35ft (7 squares) to do so.
And so, previously, I was accounting that into the DC for the Acrobatics check. Alternatively, I was fine with the creature taking up half of this space, and treating it as though squeezing.
But, after much thought about this today, I realized that using the 1ft paradigm that SKR endorses eliminates any increase in DC. All you need is one foot of space to land in safely. Yes, it gets rather silly to imagine a colossal creature balancing on 1/30th of its space, but it's much less silly than imagining such a creature floating midair and though it'd cast a 4th level Druid spell.
So, to answer your question about creature size and Acrobatics DCs, I'll answer the same as I've been doing for this entire thread:
Distance = DC
Whether you're tiny or medium or colossal, all you need to do is land on the other side of the pit. Going by 1ft increments, this means a minimum of 11ft traveled, making the DC 11.
Does that help?
Right, everyone, we are now discussing the DC to jump over a 20' pit. Please adjust your conversations accordingly.I agree, this thing's doubled in size since last night.Oh my god there have been 200 messages since I last checked guys this is probably literally the stupidest argument we've ever had.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo thud.
Manwolf can't jump a 20ft pit no matter how high he rolls.
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The rules are actually pretty clear if we take them at face value, using straightforward interpretation of the words used.
"The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical)."
To cross: "To go from one side of (something) to the other." That's from wiktionary. Different dictionaries have different wording, but they all boil down to the same thing.
To cross a 10' pit, that is, to go from one side of it to the other side of it, you need to make a DC 10 acrobatics check (if you have a running start of course).
And that's all there's to it. It makes for a simple and elegant rule too: jump over an obstacle x feet wide, make a DC x acrobatics check.
Can I try a third camp of explanation? Totally abstract, just looking at the movement.
Let's just consider the movement, ignoring, just for a moment, the fact that you leave the ground. You pay out movement and suffer penalties or have to make acrobatics rolls for moving based on the square you move to, not from, correct? Let's do a 5ft pit first. We're going to move 20ft total.
(Start)(Clear)(Clear)(Pit)(Clear)
Moving to a clear square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Move to another clear square, 5ft movement, no roll.
Moving into a pit square costs 5ft movement and requires a DC 5 Acrobatics check, because it is only 5ft wide, to not fall in. Can't stop movement here or you fall no matter how high you roll (for the sake of this demo).
Moving to the next open square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Total traveled 20ft, DC 5 for the pit. No muss, no fuss, movement rules complied with. Now we try a 10ft pit, moving 25ft.
(Start)(Clear)(Clear)(Pit)(Pit)(Clear)
Moving to a clear square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Move to another clear square, 5ft movement, no roll.
Moving into a pit square costs 5ft movement and requires a DC 10 Acrobatics check, because the pit is now 10ft wide, to not fall in and to be able to continue to move to the next square. Can't stop movement here or you fall no matter how high you roll (for the sake of this demo).
Moving into the next pit square costs 5ft movement, and you are moving here only because you made the DC 10 check, otherwise >5 but <10 and you are falling here instead. Same no stopping here.
Moving to the next open square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Done and done. No calculations, just movement. Square to square, center to center.
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The wording for Acrobatics is most certainly ambiguous. I have found at various tables that:
#1 DC 15 is the logical answer (to go from A to D you must traverse 15ft)
#2 DC 11 is the feel-good answer (that poor paladin actually has a chance to make the jump now and you are technically crossing the gap)
and
#3 DC 10 is the easy answer (all logic and grids aside, 10ft pit means 10 DC jump).
I've always leaned toward #1 but I can see the reasoning behind the others.
I see SKR's comments that Cheapy linked on Page 1 talk about how Taking 10 with no modifiers means you can easily jump a 5-9ft wide chasm. Notice here that SKR didn't say 10ft chasm. What he's saying is a DC 10 is needed for 5-9 feet. So he appears to be acknowledging that a result of 10 is not enough to cross a 10ft pit. And seeing as the game always rounds fractions down, a 5-9ft wide pit is technically 5ft wide with regards to a grid. Which would mean a "5ft" pit requires a DC 10 jump. (Where he DOES mention a DC 10, he's talking about a 10ft jump...not crossing a 10ft pit).
So again #1 sounds like the right answer and #2 could be argued as correct also.
However...
#3 is the easy and most common answer I've seen at tables. As my gaming time tends to be limited, I just go with whatever the GM says instead of wasting time debating rules (that's what this forum is for). And #3 just means my guys have a better chance of actually making the jumps anyway.
Crazy how long it's taken for me to get that point across, huh?
We got the point, but its double billing.
If you look at it realistically you jump from the very edge of what you're leaping from so you measure point to point.
If you look at the abstraction of squares, the squares you leave don't count: only squares entered, so the squares jumped is 0 1 2 3 4. This avoids the absurdity of tripping and missing the planet.
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Crazy how long it's taken for me to get that point across, huh?We got the point, but its double billing.
If you look at it realistically you jump from the very edge of what you're leaping from so you measure point to point.
If you look at the abstraction of squares, the squares you leave don't count: only squares entered, so the squares jumped is 0 1 2 3 4. This avoids the absurdity of tripping and missing the planet.
He's not saying at all that you count the square you leave from.
0 1 2 3 4
Starting in 0 and ending in 4 is a 20ft travel distance.
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That would be true if you're counting in 5-foot increments. If you roll so bad as to get under a 5, then you're not really jumping at all as opposed to stumbling around in your square...which is entirely possible with such a low roll.
Now if you break things down into more 1-foot increments, then you can see some actual movement.
Again, even as SKR pointed out in those links, a result of 10 is good for 5-9 feet, but you'd need a result of 11 to manage an "about 10" foot jump. No where in those discussions does he say DC 10 for a 10ft pit. He recognizes that in order to get over the pit, you have to travel more than 10 feet and therefore need more than a result of 10.
Maybe he's said otherwise elsewhere, I don't know. I've only looked at what Cheapy linked on the first page. From those posts SKR seems to be emphasizing the part of the CRB that mentions "...the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump)..."
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The rules are actually pretty clear if we take them at face value, using straightforward interpretation of the words used.
"The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical)."
To cross: "To go from one side of (something) to the other." That's from wiktionary. Different dictionaries have different wording, but they all boil down to the same thing.
To cross a 10' pit, that is, to go from one side of it to the other side of it, you need to make a DC 10 acrobatics check (if you have a running start of course).
And that's all there's to it. It makes for a simple and elegant rule too: jump over an obstacle x feet wide, make a DC x acrobatics check.
That is exactly true. Except for the part that "that's all there's to it." It is only true if you ignore the contradictory rules listed later, in the same paragraph I think.
Later it states that the distance moved is equal to the result of the roll (paraphrasing). If that is true, other interpretations gain a lot of validity.
It does not strengthen your argument to ignore the evidence of the opposing argument.
It is just as legitimate to go by the first rule: "DC = distance crossed" as it is to go by the second rule: "Result = distanced traveled." And while the author probably thought those two rules mean the same thing, most of us here realize they do not.
Give Nefreet some space as there is support for his claim. He is not making this stuff up.