Is variant multiclassing sub-par?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 174 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

DISCUSS

Scarab Sages

Like normal multiclassing, it has uses if you have a specific build plan in mind. Also like normal multiclassing, if you are not building specifically for the abilities it gives you, it's usually a bad idea.

That said, if you are a Fighter, Warpriest, or Zen Archer, and have a crapton of bonus feats, the cost isn't that bad and you can gain the benefits without loosing much.


It offers feat level abilities for the cost of feats. I don't really see how it could do more.


It seems to be a system to build on, like most of the chainless tome, more than a fixed system to insert.

Scarab Sages

It also might be worth it for the Sorcerer VMC. A bloodline is very useful for a lot of builds, and unlike eldritch heritage you don't need to waste a feat on skill focus or have a decent charisma.


Bard is also really nice. I'd take a feat for half level to all knowledge checks and one for Inspire Courage.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i found most of the VMC options pretty underwhelming... barbarian was probably the biggest exception (and the fact that its first probably made the others seem even weaker). any Str based melee with the feats to spare gains a ton from gaining rage (in particular- a mutation warrior fighter with the VMC barbarian would be fairly outrageous).

other than that, it seems like most of the options are mostly just for flavor, and some would be really difficult to integrate well...
- i reallly like the idea of an eldritch guardian fighter with VMC magus (lots of flavor, a reason for Int on your fighter, and some cool options for backstory) but the spellstrike power is totally wasted.
- the bard VMC is cool but is best suited for someone focused on knowledges and Cha... so its nice for a Lore Oracle, or some arcanists, and anyone else is stretching their point buy to use it.
- alchemist has some potential... the bombs are a pretty potent ability but coming on line at 7th they'll mostly benefit non-casters (who really could have used them earlier), plus it really seems like they should have gotten a discovery or two.
- cleric could be cool for some builds but they really gain a very small amount of stuff... just one domain and channel- most of what makes it seem decent is that you actually eventually get those things at close to you character level so they'll actually matter (as opposed to the oracle who gets a bunch of abilities but all at level -6 so most of them are garbage)

i have some ideas that i think would make the system better (more than one VMC for many classes with tighter focus in many, VMC archetypes, better means of interacting with some existing feats)... if I ever have any free time maybe I'll actually write them up and post them somewhere...


It's a houserule, but I gave fighters VCM for free. Made it slightly more useful and buffs fighters abit too.

Sovereign Court

If your build is feat intensive - it's not worth it.

If it isn't - VMC is pretty sweet if you pick the right combos.

Wizard Teleportation specialist - if at 7 you burn an additional feat - you basically get a short-ranged teleporting pounce. (awesome!)

Some sorceror bloodlines can give nat armor & str bonuses. (awesome!)

Fighter isn't great until 11 - but Weapon Training 1 is worth more than a feat - and more importantly it allows you to wear Gloves of Dueling. (awesome!) - and armor training is a solid ability for a dex build.

Bard would be amazing for a caster. A wizard would know everything! A sorceror would get a ton of performance rounds (and actually be able to know something! :P). And once you can start a performance as a move action - it practically doesn't cost them an action at all.

Barbarian rage power? Superstition? Yes please.

Frankly - while a few are weak - I'm leaning towards them being OP - certainly not UP.


On the whole I've found most of the VMC options rather underwhelming. My group is considering changing it so you switch out your feats at 1st, 5th, 9th, etc. level instead, i.e. gaining all the VMC abilities two levels earlier than as written, to make it more appealing. Does that sound like it would be balanced, or would it make some VMCs too good?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Zolanoteph wrote:
DISCUSS

Yes I definitely think you're missing something. That's all anybody can ever give with your input. And stop creating threads with this as your main post, you've done it way too much.

"DISCUSS" isn't a rules question.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

...but surely this isn't the rules forum?


Ethereal Gears wrote:
...but surely this isn't the rules forum?

Not anymore it's not.


Oh. Right. I didn't realize the thread had gotten moved. Sorry!


Rub-Eta wrote:
Zolanoteph wrote:
DISCUSS

Yes I definitely think you're missing something. That's all anybody can ever give with your input. And stop creating threads with this as your main post, you've done it way too much.

"DISCUSS" isn't a rules question.

Lol, yeah.

After far too many arrogant college professors did this to me (walk into the classroom, there is a topic on the board, prof says "Discuss" and sits down to read a book while we figure out his lesson for ourselves), I tend to react negatively when a forum poster orders me to discuss his topic, especially when he doesn't even bother to provide his viewpoint first.

But I thought it was just me; thanks for letting me know it's not.

Now I return this thread to its commanded discussion...


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The good VMCs are awesome. The bad VMCs are terrible. This is no different from anything else in the game.

Diviner Wizard? +2 Perception, +14 Initiative, always act in surprise rounds, auto nat 20 on initiative. And some other minor tricks to boot. Yeah, I'd trade five feats for that.

Cavalier? +18 damage per hit for the duration of an encounter ('cause let's be serious, Chain Challenge). Couple free teamwork feats with the ability to share them out. Some other niche abilities.

I would-- and did-- trade five feats for that.

Rogue? Bit of a slow starter, but in the mid-to-high levels you get some nice defensive tricks to go with your Sneak Attack. Also, Vivisectionist VMC Rogue caps at a 14D6 Sneak Attack, and the Vivisectionist is really not strapped for feats. Slayer VMC Rogue is probably the ideal combat Rogue and gets the bonus feats to pull off most styles anyway; it's hard to argue with full BAB 10D6 Sneak Attack.

There are some gems. You just have to dig a little.


The best VMCs are the ones with general-purpose abilities and many options to pick from. Barbarian, Bard, Magus, and Sorcerer are the first I'd look to for any concept. Wizard's great if you're any form of caster, with more limited options for pure martials. Oracle and Witch would be good if not for the absurd level restrictions.

The VMCs that suck are the ones which just grant arbitrary class features at arbitrary levels: Cleric, Gunslinger, and Ranger are examples of how it shouldn't have been done, and are the ones I find it nigh-impossible to build a story around.


Runelord Apologist wrote:

The best VMCs are the ones with general-purpose abilities and many options to pick from. Barbarian, Bard, Magus, and Sorcerer are the first I'd look to for any concept. Wizard's great if you're any form of caster, with more limited options for pure martials. Oracle and Witch would be good if not for the absurd level restrictions.

The VMCs that suck are the ones which just grant arbitrary class features at arbitrary levels: Cleric, Gunslinger, and Ranger are examples of how it shouldn't have been done, and are the ones I find it nigh-impossible to build a story around.

Make senes. And i love your name:)


Imbicatus wrote:
It also might be worth it for the Sorcerer VMC. A bloodline is very useful for a lot of builds, and unlike eldritch heritage you don't need to waste a feat on skill focus or have a decent charisma.

I VMC Nualia in my RotRL games for this reason. Giving her the Pestilance Bloodline works great with her Natural Weapon.


Ethereal Gears wrote:
On the whole I've found most of the VMC options rather underwhelming. My group is considering changing it so you switch out your feats at 1st, 5th, 9th, etc. level instead, i.e. gaining all the VMC abilities two levels earlier than as written, to make it more appealing. Does that sound like it would be balanced, or would it make some VMCs too good?

Hmm, I'm not sure. Though, 1st level feats are pretty important for a lot of classes, since low levels need everything they can get. I do think that 7th is more important, though, and for classes like Barbarian that means they can't take a feat that relies on BAB +6 (like Vital Strike) until level 9! The only concern for me is tacking Rage onto any class day 1 (though I'm convinced they messed up, because other classes like Ranger and Paladin and Rogue don't get their combat stuff until much later, while Barbarian gets Rage from the get-go), but otherwise I don't think it would be too terribly much so long as you're ready for 1st level characters to be pretty frontloaded. Fighter is really wonky, and ones like Monk you'll have to add on a "minimum 1" clause or something. But that progression actually sounds about right to me, like how Skill Unlocks should all be moved down 5 levels in my opinion.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The answer is probably no. You're missing something and VMC sucks. You're missing an actual post with content in it, but I'm not seeing much to like in VMC. It's too rigid and most classes don't give an ability worth a feat until level 7, which is rather late. Many don't even give a worthwhile ability until level 11. Some are never worthwhile.

The existence of a handful of VMCs that are sometimes worth using doesn't make the system as a whole not suck.

Liberty's Edge

Characters who take wizard as their variant multiclass can cast spells just as well as a wizard can for twenty levels.

Characters who take fighter as their variant multiclass get a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with their preferred choice of weapon by twentieth level.

I don't want to say there's a small issue of parity here, but there's a small issue of parity here.

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Snorb wrote:

Characters who take wizard as their variant multiclass can cast spells just as well as a wizard can for twenty levels.

Ummm no they cant. VMC Wizard at 20th grants a familiar, an at-will cantrip SLA, a single Discovery or bonus feat, and the first and 8th level school powers. It doesn't give any ability to actually cast spells at all.


Snorb wrote:
Characters who take wizard as their variant multiclass can cast spells just as well as a wizard can for twenty levels.

Lolwhut? The only spell a VMC wizard gives is a cantrip at level 11. I'd say it's one of the worst, and is definetly worst than the fighter, witch gives the ability to wear duelling gloves for a +4 to hit and damage on top of +2 AC.

The best one to me is definetly magus. Arcane pool it's awesome netting you lots of +hit at medium levels and also saving you lots of gold. Also, arcanas are nearly always better than feats and the magus VMC does not have the "no extra arcana" clause like the witch one. Also, Flamboyant Arcana. Dhu.

Paizo Employee Designer

Given I have heard in this one thread that magus is the best VMC and one of the worst, I think it's safe to say that in total, we haven't had these to play with for long enough to come up with a conclusive judgment. One thing that takes a little while to kick in (for instance in the case of the magus, which I agree is a very powerful one) is the ability to look past one ability that is less useful for that many characters (spellstrike) and toward the abilities that are worth an extreme amount more than a feat but only sub out one feat (arcane pool) or just generally more than a feat, if not by an extreme amount (arcana). The same is true for wizard, another of the ones I've seen said to be both quite strong (I agree with that side) and weak, the latter judgments due to fixation on the 11th level ability being not as useful.


Snorb wrote:

Characters who take wizard as their variant multiclass can cast spells just as well as a wizard can for twenty levels.

Characters who take fighter as their variant multiclass get a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with their preferred choice of weapon by twentieth level.

I don't want to say there's a small issue of parity here, but there's a small issue of parity here.

they also get better armor, and the ability to move freely in medium armor. and the vmc opens them up for gloves of dueling so +4 to attack and Damage

also i don't see how the wizard one is that great it doesnt actually grant spell casting ability


@Puna'chong: Yeah, obviously this would make 1st-level characters kinda front-loaded, but my group generally doesn't start our campaigns until around 3rd-5th level anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem.

The thing, of course, is that there's a massive disparity between the different VMCs in terms of how useful they are for different builds, et cetera. I hadn't even considered that giving them two levels early could actually have drawbacks, i.e. in that 1st-level and 7th-level feats can be really important for certain builds.

Like, I get how the barbarian VMC is probably fine as is, getting rage at 3rd, but the alchemist one seems really wonky. 5th, not 7th, level seems like the ideal sweet spot to get that limited bomb ability.

I think I'm gonna suggest for our group that if a character chooses VMC they get to choose whether to replace the feats at 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level or whether to go with the standard progression at character creation, and then have to stick with that choice. That seems the best way to patch this.

Community & Digital Content Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Changed thread title to be less baiting. In the future, please don't start threads this way. It's generally a better idea to start out with an example or concern you may have in detail rather than taking the "Please Discuss" approach.


I think the fighter ability is fantastic for melee characters, moving at full speed in medium armor and gaining access to higher DEX bonuses saves a lot of money on Mithral armor. The bonuses in damage barely matter to that.
It is unclear to me whether or not you would qualify for fighter only feats like greater weapon focus or weapon specialization.

If you do (imo you should) then it is fantastic for marital characters.


There is a single niche for alchemist VMC that is quite good, and that is the Underground Chemist rogue taking it. Underground Chemist lets the rogue deal sneak attack damage with splash weapons. And then bombs for reliable targeting of touch ac.

One major problem with the VMC is that they do not give some of the most basic functionality that taking even a single dip in a class provides. Primarily either martial weapon proficiency and armors, or the ability to use spell completion items. This is also what makes the fighter VMC so much less useful. Weapon and Armor training are good, but despite being a MC Fighter, you qualify for no fighter only (+a bajillion other classes anyways) feats.

The three most useful in my opinion are Magus, Wizard and Oracle. Oracle revelations and curses (which are often quite beneficial). Runelord Apologist called it pretty well I think with the ones that give you access to a choice of abilities being far more useful.


Koshimo wrote:
Snorb wrote:

Characters who take wizard as their variant multiclass can cast spells just as well as a wizard can for twenty levels.

Characters who take fighter as their variant multiclass get a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with their preferred choice of weapon by twentieth level.

I don't want to say there's a small issue of parity here, but there's a small issue of parity here.

they also get better armor, and the ability to move freely in medium armor. and the vmc opens them up for gloves of dueling so +4 to attack and Damage

also i don't see how the wizard one is that great it doesnt actually grant spell casting ability

The short version for most classes: Diviner is awesome.


Ethereal Gears wrote:

@Puna'chong: Yeah, obviously this would make 1st-level characters kinda front-loaded, but my group generally doesn't start our campaigns until around 3rd-5th level anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem.

The thing, of course, is that there's a massive disparity between the different VMCs in terms of how useful they are for different builds, et cetera. I hadn't even considered that giving them two levels early could actually have drawbacks, i.e. in that 1st-level and 7th-level feats can be really important for certain builds.

Like, I get how the barbarian VMC is probably fine as is, getting rage at 3rd, but the alchemist one seems really wonky. 5th, not 7th, level seems like the ideal sweet spot to get that limited bomb ability.

I think I'm gonna suggest for our group that if a character chooses VMC they get to choose whether to replace the feats at 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level or whether to go with the standard progression at character creation, and then have to stick with that choice. That seems the best way to patch this.

Yeah, either way builds can be delayed, so it's more on an individual build basis than for a class on the whole; I've had players with barbarians that want every single feat they can get, and those that just take Extra Rage Power every time. I do, however, think that if you allow someone to take a Barbarian VMC at level 1 that you swap Uncanny Dodge and Rage. Rage is an outlier, in that every other class that gets a damage boost ability gets it at 7 or 11 (and Paladin should get Smite earlier...) and its design isn't consistent with the paradigm that the other VMCs present. That, and Uncanny Dodge is something I don't think any class would be upset at getting. It's just static protection, which is great at every level.

I'll probably adopt this same thing for my home games. VMCs and Skill Unlocks seem fine if you regularly play at the levels above 10, but I suspect that a lot of tables either don't get that far or rarely play at those levels, so the abilities seem really lackluster if you're capping out and finishing up a campaign around level 11.

Liberty's Edge

EVERYONE WHO CORRECTED ME wrote:
No, variant multiclass wizards don't get spellcasting.

Whoops.

But hey, if you're gonna variant multiclass, pick up druid. You still get wildshape. Eventually.

(Moral of this story: Don't variant multiclass. And don't carry on a conversation with someone while giving the monitor a sidelong glance, thus causing rules misreadings. =p)


I think that giving Uncanny Dodge at 1st and Rage at 5th for the Barbarian VMC is probably a good idea, yes. And, indeed, it's mostly about my group basically preferring the game at levels 1-10, sometimes heading up towards a ceiling of maybe 15-ish, but rarely beyond, so this change would basically make VMCs more palatable for campaigns within those level boundaries. I also agree that skill unlocks should come earlier.


Snorb wrote:
EVERYONE WHO CORRECTED ME wrote:
No, variant multiclass wizards don't get spellcasting.

Whoops.

But hey, if you're gonna variant multiclass, pick up druid. You still get wildshape. Eventually.

(Moral of this story: Don't variant multiclass. And don't carry on a conversation with someone while giving the monitor a sidelong glance, thus causing rules misreadings. =p)

Druid's a fairly weak VMC. The abilities come in way too late to really be viable.

I mean, if your build is cool with getting a level-four-equivalent Wild Shape at level 15, cool I guess, but most of the awesome tricks that you can pull off with Wild Shape require the better forms and require you to be transforming well before that level.

Liberty's Edge

The only way my build's gonna be cool with getting 4th level equivalent wild shape is if I'm actually going full druid. =p

Scarab Sages

I look at VMC Druid as a bargain if you were going to take Nature Soul/Animal Ally/Boon companion. You get a companion from a non-limited list, and then Wild Empathy and Wild Shape are bonuses.

Paizo Employee Designer

Imbicatus wrote:
I look at VMC Druid as a bargain if you were going to take Nature Soul/Animal Ally/Boon companion. You get a companion from a non-limited list, and then Wild Empathy and Wild Shape are bonuses.

Yep, that's intended. A lot of them are like that, actually. As a total package, they are typically a bargain for the price compared to taking similar feats if you were going that general direction anyway.


Imbicatus wrote:
I look at VMC Druid as a bargain if you were going to take Nature Soul/Animal Ally/Boon companion. You get a companion from a non-limited list, and then Wild Empathy and Wild Shape are bonuses.

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, so feel free to correct me... but don't you get the companion at Druid level -something (I want to say 3) at 7th and the full companion at 11th?

Same issue that I have with the Wild Shape. That kicks in halfway through the game, and animal companions shine brightest, in my mind, in the front half of the game.


Imbicatus wrote:
I look at VMC Druid as a bargain if you were going to take Nature Soul/Animal Ally/Boon companion. You get a companion from a non-limited list, and then Wild Empathy and Wild Shape are bonuses.

The issue I have with this comparison is that the mentioned feat chain... isn't very good. As a chain, it has the same problem as many theorycraft builds: it gives you something good at the end of the line, but at all levels before is just a mishmash of minor bonuses that don't cohere.

Druid VMC has similar issues. Wild empathy is a nice ability to write down on your character sheet, but without investing in Charisma and supplementary feats, it rarely even functions in gameplay, making any thematic claims about the character being 'good with animals' moot. A level-4 animal companion is closer to a familiar than to the druid class feature; it's a pet to be looked after and kept safe, not a companion to fight beside you. Until level 11, the VMC Druid really grants nothing to my character that I couldn't accomplish by putting ranks in Handle Animal and buying a cat.

So... why not do that, instead of spending the feats? Why not go VMC Witch instead, and get a smarter pet that talks to me, along with a hex (Charm) that's generally more effective than Wild Empathy at letting me befriend animals? Why is VMC Witch a better friend to animals than VMC Druid?

Liberty's Edge

kestral287 wrote:
...and animal companions shine brightest, in my mind, in the front half of the game.

Which is exactly why you can't get a fully powered one at 3rd level for the cost of a feat.


JRutterbush wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
...and animal companions shine brightest, in my mind, in the front half of the game.
Which is exactly why you can't get a fully powered one at 3rd level for the cost of a feat.

And why spending three feats to get one at 3rd level is a better investment than spending five feats to get one at 11th level, even if you get the nigh-useless Wild Empathy and the incredibly-late-game-and-limited Wild Shape out of the deal too.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I look at VMC Druid as a bargain if you were going to take Nature Soul/Animal Ally/Boon companion. You get a companion from a non-limited list, and then Wild Empathy and Wild Shape are bonuses.
Yep, that's intended. A lot of them are like that, actually. As a total package, they are typically a bargain for the price compared to taking similar feats if you were going that general direction anyway.

I think the problem is that what most people wanted out of the Druid VMC was wildshape. I would have gladly spent all of those feats for Wildshape with HD=Druid level.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I look at VMC Druid as a bargain if you were going to take Nature Soul/Animal Ally/Boon companion. You get a companion from a non-limited list, and then Wild Empathy and Wild Shape are bonuses.
Yep, that's intended. A lot of them are like that, actually. As a total package, they are typically a bargain for the price compared to taking similar feats if you were going that general direction anyway.
I think the problem is that what most people wanted out of the Druid VMC was wildshape. I would have gladly spent all of those feats for Wildshape with HD=Druid level.

I think that people would have preferred more focused VMCs in general. The ones we have now tend to provide a smattering of everything from a class without really shining in any one area.

5 feats for Bardsong, wildshape, flurry+ki pool or rage+a few rage powers would be what I suspect people would have liked to see.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I actually did find a use for VMC Gunslinger. One of my players wants to play Holmes, complete with a Watson cohort. I put together an alchemist (chirugeon) with the VMC. It looks decent, at least by the standards of getting another PC for a single feat. ^_^

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The biggest problem with the gunslinger VMC (IMO) is that up until 15th level, you've given up 3 feats for... 3 feats. Literally all you get for 3,7, and 11 are one feat each- if you're building the characters at high level I'm sure it's a fine thing to add, but if you're starting at low level all you're really accomplishing is forcing yourself to wait for the feats you need to make your build work... A half-elf with ancestral arms (or human with full BAB class) can start with EWP[firearms] and gunsmith, and add amateur gunslinger at 3rd- with the VMC you have to wait til eleventh level for that...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Given I have heard in this one thread that magus is the best VMC and one of the worst, I think it's safe to say that in total, we haven't had these to play with for long enough to come up with a conclusive judgment. One thing that takes a little while to kick in (for instance in the case of the magus, which I agree is a very powerful one) is the ability to look past one ability that is less useful for that many characters (spellstrike) and toward the abilities that are worth an extreme amount more than a feat but only sub out one feat (arcane pool) or just generally more than a feat, if not by an extreme amount (arcana). The same is true for wizard, another of the ones I've seen said to be both quite strong (I agree with that side) and weak, the latter judgments due to fixation on the 11th level ability being not as useful.

Even if every ability for every class were better than a feat (they're not) the system would be bad because there's no flexibility.

To take your magus example, the soul of the magus is the spell combat spellstrike combo. If you were using magus with normal multiclassing that would be the important thing. The VMC magus gets some peripheral stuff that isn't really important. Arcane Pool is a BAB compensator and not a very good one. It's not enough to make a wizard-magus work and it's redundant for a bard-magus or bloodrager-magus. The arcana is still not what makes a magus a magus. At level 11 the magus VMC finally gets one of the things the multiclasser actually wants from magus, but it's the one that doesn't work alone because it's only useful in melee, but it's not the one that lets you safely cast in melee. It doesn't matter how great you think arcane pool or arcana are. That's not doing the job.

In general the actual abilities people might want from a multiclass are too frequently delayed until level 11 in a game where the reality is that most campaigns fall apart before level 10. That does not a useful system make.

It's the old monk problem. A fixed schedule of abilities is worth less than the sum of its parts.


Atarlost wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Given I have heard in this one thread that magus is the best VMC and one of the worst, I think it's safe to say that in total, we haven't had these to play with for long enough to come up with a conclusive judgment. One thing that takes a little while to kick in (for instance in the case of the magus, which I agree is a very powerful one) is the ability to look past one ability that is less useful for that many characters (spellstrike) and toward the abilities that are worth an extreme amount more than a feat but only sub out one feat (arcane pool) or just generally more than a feat, if not by an extreme amount (arcana). The same is true for wizard, another of the ones I've seen said to be both quite strong (I agree with that side) and weak, the latter judgments due to fixation on the 11th level ability being not as useful.

Even if every ability for every class were better than a feat (they're not) the system would be bad because there's no flexibility.

To take your magus example, the soul of the magus is the spell combat spellstrike combo. If you were using magus with normal multiclassing that would be the important thing. The VMC magus gets some peripheral stuff that isn't really important. Arcane Pool is a BAB compensator and not a very good one. It's not enough to make a wizard-magus work and it's redundant for a bard-magus or bloodrager-magus. The arcana is still not what makes a magus a magus. At level 11 the magus VMC finally gets one of the things the multiclasser actually wants from magus, but it's the one that doesn't work alone because it's only useful in melee, but it's not the one that lets you safely cast in melee. It doesn't matter how great you think arcane pool or arcana are. That's not doing the job.

In general the actual abilities people might want from a multiclass are too frequently delayed until level 11 in a game where the reality is that most campaigns fall apart before level 10. That does not a useful system make.

It's the old...

As I think about it more I have noticed something similar, that is not entirely a problem with the VMC if regular multiclassing is also allowed. Oft times, the character that wants to multi class for certain abilities does not want the VMC options. The characters that can use VMC options the best are the ones that didn't plan to multiclass, but can use it as an opportunity to trade out feats for nifty class abilities that may help the character fulfill a concept.


Snowblind wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I look at VMC Druid as a bargain if you were going to take Nature Soul/Animal Ally/Boon companion. You get a companion from a non-limited list, and then Wild Empathy and Wild Shape are bonuses.
Yep, that's intended. A lot of them are like that, actually. As a total package, they are typically a bargain for the price compared to taking similar feats if you were going that general direction anyway.
I think the problem is that what most people wanted out of the Druid VMC was wildshape. I would have gladly spent all of those feats for Wildshape with HD=Druid level.

I think that people would have preferred more focused VMCs in general. The ones we have now tend to provide a smattering of everything from a class without really shining in any one area.

5 feats for Bardsong, wildshape, flurry+ki pool or rage+a few rage powers would be what I suspect people would have liked to see.

Either more focused or at least a list of abilities to pick from. As/is, it's mostly all the abilities I wouldn't pick all in a pre-packaged bundle.

Add to that some things are just puzzling. Why the heck are things like cantrip at 11th? Seems quite late for it. A single class rogue can get it at 2nd... And why the heck isn't it actual casting? Seems odd they learn something the original class doesn't have...

Overall the offerings seem lackluster at the levels you gain the abilities and often have annoying restrictions added like no Extra Hex feat or limited revelation picks. Overall I can only see using this on niche builds or times when I start MUCH higher than normal to make the late gained abilities usable.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Bard is also really nice. I'd take a feat for half level to all knowledge checks and one for Inspire Courage.

Yes -- if you could stop there, it would be a no brainer for many mentally oriented characters to take. Some VMC combinations, like this one, offer diminishing returns, while others (such as the cleric and druid) seem to become more worthwhile as you gain further levels.

1 to 50 of 174 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Is variant multiclassing sub-par? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.