What do you get besides secondary class features? Does a secondary Wizard get the ability to cast spells? Does a secondary Fighter get the Fighter's bonus combat feats? Etc.
I think you get whatever it says you get, nothing less, nothing more.
I figured as much. It doesn't hurt to double-check in case I missed a sentence.
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Honestly a few of them are just garbage like the fighter and gunslinger, but others are rock stars. Though whoever thought getting a cantrip at 11th level was awesome needs to go back to awesome school.
Cavalier VMC apparently gives you Challenge at lv3.
Meaning effectively go from Exemplar Brawler right into Battle Herald with a VMC drop into Cavalier at lv3.
Whether that's WORTH it, I'm not sure, as you're also losing out on things like Banner, but if you don't care about Banner, and you have a single-class access into Battle Herald.
If the Bard grants Inspire Courage, then you could also go Cavalier directly into Battle Herald, which is spiffy.
Cavalier VMC apparently gives you Challenge at lv3.
Meaning effectively go from Exemplar Brawler right into Battle Herald with a VMC drop into Cavalier at lv3.
Whether that's WORTH it, I'm not sure, as you're also losing out on things like Banner, but if you don't care about Banner, and you have a single-class access into Battle Herald.
If the Bard grants Inspire Courage, then you could also go Cavalier directly into Battle Herald, which is spiffy.
It gets both Inspire Courage and Competence at level 7 with character level - 4 as bard level.
I have to say, I don't see anyone that's not an arcane, non-armor wearing caster using the Monk VMC...
I have to say, I don't see anyone that's not an arcane, non-armor wearing caster using the Monk VMC...
I saw that too. Not the most attractive VMC option ever. Especially as the bonus to AC you get comes in at 15th level! Yeah, I'll lose the ability to wear armour for my first 14 levels to get a poxy bonus at level 15!
Some of the other VMCs are awesome though. Shame we can't use them in PFS.
reminds me a lot of the 4E feat-dip multiclassing in some ways. I had an insane Star Pact warlock who dipped into Cleric once that was a lot of fun as a Priest of the Old Gods. Could easily make something similar using this system. Maybe Summoner or Witch spliced with VMC-Cleric.
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I have to say, I don't see anyone that's not an arcane, non-armor wearing caster using the Monk VMC...I saw that too. Not the most attractive VMC option ever. Especially as the bonus to AC you get comes in at 15th level! Yeah, I'll lose the ability to wear armour for my first 14 levels to get a poxy bonus at level 15!
Some of the other VMCs are awesome though. Shame we can't use them in PFS.
Druids get animal companions, barbarians get rage, but poor monk doesn't get Wis to AC for their VMC, or flurry, and get a piddly dodge bonuses at level 15. Yeah, not buying that.
Druids get animal companions, barbarians get rage, but poor monk doesn't get Wis to AC for their VMC, or flurry, and get a piddly dodge bonuses at level 15. Yeah, not buying that.I have to say, I don't see anyone that's not an arcane, non-armor wearing caster using the Monk VMC...I saw that too. Not the most attractive VMC option ever. Especially as the bonus to AC you get comes in at 15th level! Yeah, I'll lose the ability to wear armour for my first 14 levels to get a poxy bonus at level 15!
Some of the other VMCs are awesome though. Shame we can't use them in PFS.
I feel like the Flurry could be a hidden gem. LIMITED, yes, but potentially very nice. Maybe. It'd take some on-hands-testing to see.
I have to say, I don't see anyone that's not an arcane, non-armor wearing caster using the Monk VMC...The world isn't full of Fighter/Monk multi-classing either, your point?
VMC 3rd fight is bravery, I mean really? The gunslinger VMC doesn't get deeds till 7 if you count that or 15 if you don't. I'm sure if you really wanted to be an Amateur gunslinger you'd have taken the feat way before level 7. So yeah I basically agree that some are awesome and some are garbage.
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I have to say, I don't see anyone that's not an arcane, non-armor wearing caster using the Monk VMC...The world isn't full of Fighter/Monk multi-classing either, your point?
My point is that for all the work they put into making the Unchained Classes better/more balanced, they could've made some of the VMCs worth losing half your feats over.
Point out which class combos well with Monk then. Here's a hint: unless it's the Empyreal Sorcerer wanting Evasion, it's none.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some class I'm simply not remembering benefits from never wearing armor and getting nothing in return for that restriction. Ever.
Even if some combo's aren't optimal I think it's a system that helps capture a lot of interesting concepts that regular multiclassing doesn't quite work for.
A wizard trained in the temples of Nethys for example. Mystic Theurge is one way to go, but it's not something that kicks in right away.
but go with VMC-Cleric and right away I'm a church trained wizard
Fighter with VMC-Sorcerer(Abyssal) can make for a nice Demon Possessed warrior, even if that benefit for 19th level is a total waste. I have literally lost a feat there, but I'm a fighter who grows claws, resist lightning and has Demonically enhanced strength.
there are some really nice possibilities in the system, even if some of them aren't ideal, they still make for an interesting character
Point out which class combos well with Monk then. Here's a hint: unless it's the Empyreal Sorcerer wanting Evasion, it's none.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some class I'm simply not remembering benefits from never wearing armor and getting nothing in return for that restriction. Ever.
what about an Internal Alchemist
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Point out which class combos well with Monk then. Here's a hint: unless it's the Empyreal Sorcerer wanting Evasion, it's none.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some class I'm simply not remembering benefits from never wearing armor and getting nothing in return for that restriction. Ever.
Kensai Magus never wears armor. It's a valid option for them (not that they'd use their precious feats on VMC Monk when they've got Metamagic and stuff to pick up).
what about an Internal Alchemist
Here's your choice: wear armor and have a +4 bonus to your Armor Class at level 1, or pray you find bracers of armor soon. At higher levels Armor is always going to be better than the bracers, except in rare corner-cases.
A wizard trained in the temples of Nethys for example. Mystic Theurge is one way to go, but it's not something that kicks in right away.but go with VMC-Cleric and right away I'm a church trained wizard
Fighter with VMC-Sorcerer(Abyssal) can make for a nice Demon Possessed warrior, even if that benefit for 19th level is a total waste. I have literally lost a feat there, but I'm a fighter who grows claws, resist lightning and has Demonically enhanced strength.
Any wizard can be church trained. This system didn't add that idea in.
Barbarian with a few Rage Powers, or a Bloodrager, can be "demon possessed" without given up feats to do it.
Kensai Magus never wears armor. It's a valid option for them (not that they'd use their precious feats on VMC Monk when they've got Metamagic and stuff to pick up).
Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial. Yes, Kensai wear armor.
And +3 AC and level 15 is not a valid option for a frontline class, even if they might be adding Dexterity and Intelligence to their AC.
What you're forgetting is that the Ac bonus comes in at level 15, but the armor prohibition is there from level 1.
So yeah, you get +3 dodge bonus to AC, which is ok. But there's very few characters who are going to meaningfully benefit from it because it's 1, paltry, and 2, at level 15.
I realize not all the VMC options are going to be awesome, but this one does suck quite badly.
EDIT: Paltry is unfair. I'd not turn down a +3 dodge bonus to AC if I was in a position to benefit from it when I think about it..
what about an Internal AlchemistPoint out which class combos well with Monk then. Here's a hint: unless it's the Empyreal Sorcerer wanting Evasion, it's none.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some class I'm simply not remembering benefits from never wearing armor and getting nothing in return for that restriction. Ever.
Wouldn't Druids be simply tickled PINK by getting +Wis to AC?
Who needs to worry about getting non-metal armor again at that point?
They don't get +Wis to AC. They get a +3 dodge bonus to AC at level 15.
They do get other stuff as well.
The more I look at this, the more I can see it has it's uses. Maybe an Invulnerable raging Barbarian with a great axe and a loincloth, and a monk's unarmed strike-2, and evasion. That could be a laugh..
And there's the Kensai & Druid too.. hmm
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The armor restriction is a non-issue until 3rd since you wouldn't have any secondary monk abilities until then anyway. As an Alchemist there are a multitude of extracts I could use for armor bonus plus the mutagen. The Alchemist in our Serpent's Skull campaign was able to push his AC to absurd levels without wearing armor.
Further the internal Alchemist already has good synergy with the Monk with feats like Extra Ki and Stunning fist being available as Discoveries, plus discoveries such as Spontaneous Healing, Preserved Organs and Mummification aiding in the combat role.
Monk VMC augments him significantly by giving him the Monk's Unarmed damage to actually allow him to benefit from the long list of Combat Feat discoveries he is given far more effectively than the 1d3 damage he would normally have.
Oh, also, Gunslingers would like a bonus to AC that uses the same Stat that defines their Grit.
As would a Holy Gun Paladin, for pretty much the same reasons.
Ninja also likes the idea of getting an AC Bonus based on the stat that gives them Ki.
Cult Leader Warpriests think Wisdom for both spellcasting and AC is stellar. Then again, maybe the Cult Leader would rather have progressive Sneak Attacks, honestly.
Cloistered Cleric, too (although that doesn't really mean anyone would probably WANT to play a Cloistered Cleric)
That looks like a nice combination there. Well done Greylurker.
They don't get +Wis to AC. They get a +3 dodge bonus to AC at level 15.
Oh... darn.
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Actually, now that I think about it - what DOES the Rogue grant?
Does it grant Sneak Attack?
Because if it does, I imagine Cult Leaders and Slayers would have very little problems losing every other Feat if that means they get a boost to Sneak Attacks every 4th level.
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That looks like a nice combination there. Well done Greylurker.
Internal Alchemist was always something that kind of bugged me. It's like the archetype was designed so that Multiclassing with a Monk (or possibly a ninja) was mandatory. VMC-Monk actually makes it feel more viable
Actually, now that I think about it - what DOES the Rogue grant?
Does it grant Sneak Attack?
Because if it does, I imagine Cult Leaders and Slayers would have very little problems losing every other Feat if that means they get a boost to Sneak Attacks every 4th level.
Rogue grants a total of 4d6 sneak attack starting at L7. (so, L7 +1d6, L11 +2d6, etc). You get trapfinding at L3, Evasion at L11, probably somethingat L15 that I can't remember for the love of my own life, ...and uncanny dodge at L19. Seems nice for sanctified slayer inquisitiors too!
VMC Monk gives a Ki Pool at L11, at Character level -2 as effective monk level.
Ki Pool: At 11th level, he gains the ki pool class feature of a monk of his character level – 2, with a number of ki points equal to 1/2 his character level. He only ever gains ki pool (lawful) if he is of lawful alignment.
You can go full Arcane caster into Arcane Trickster with the Rogue VMC. Have to do some retraining if you don't want to wait until level 12 to start, though.
I don't think that is worth loss of half of your feats.
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where is the list of what each variant MC grants?
In the Pathfinder Unchained book.
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where is the list of what each variant MC grants?
Unchained, page 88!
VMC Monk gives a Ki Pool at L11, at Character level -2 as effective monk level.
Ki Pool: At 11th level, he gains the ki pool class feature of a monk of his character level – 2, with a number of ki points equal to 1/2 his character level. He only ever gains ki pool (lawful) if he is of lawful alignment.
So far the only mention of alignment in the whole system that I've seen.
Yay for Monks and Paladins getting Rage without losing class features!
VMC Monk gives a Ki Pool at L11, at Character level -2 as effective monk level.
Ki Pool: At 11th level, he gains the ki pool class feature of a monk of his character level – 2, with a number of ki points equal to 1/2 his character level. He only ever gains ki pool (lawful) if he is of lawful alignment.So far the only mention of alignment in the whole system that I've seen.
Yay for Monks and Paladins getting Rage without losing class features!
Yup, lowering the barbarian, druid, and monk's alignment restrictions for a secondary class was one of the goals! You only keep the barebones obvious code stuff (secondary druids still love nature, secondary clerics still follow their deity, etc). It just didn't make sense for a chaos monk to be making lawful strikes and such.
Here's a question that has come up: Is there any mechanical benefit for having a patron from the witch VMC, or is it purely fluff?
I ask, because it says you choose a patron, but nothing else is explained under the witch VMC, and witches don't have a class ability called "patron". I am personally of the opinion that it is the same as choosing a deity, and there are no mechanical benefits. Others disagree.
Here's a question that has come up: Is there any mechanical benefit for having a patron from the witch VMC, or is it purely fluff?
I ask, because it says you choose a patron, but nothing else is explained under the witch VMC, and witches don't have a class ability called "patron". I am personally of the opinion that it is the same as choosing a deity, and there are no mechanical benefits. Others disagree.
It is a flavor thing, which affects your familiar's personality, and such. But flavor is very important for most multiclass concepts, I think!
It is a flavor thing, which affects your familiar's personality, and such. But flavor is very important for most multiclass concepts, I think!
That's my interpretation of it. A player wants to add the patron spells automatically to an oracle. I looked over a few other forums, and no one agrees, but to me "patron" =/= "patron spells".
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Having looked over the paladin's VMC, does "the paladin's code of conduct" include their alignment restriction?
Yes, it's the first line of the code of conduct class feature.
They don't get +Wis to AC. They get a +3 dodge bonus to AC at level 15.
I am sad.