If you're an atheist, how can you have gods and religions in your setting?......

[Hama]

I was asked this question on my last game, by one of my new players (who was obviously outraged that I don't believe in the same deity as he does)

It left me wondering though. Do you, atheist GMs, have a problem with gods and religion in the games you run? Or do you simply accept them as fact and go from there?

I, for one, find that in most settings, deities are actual, existing beings who interact with their believers and actually grant some of the more devout the ability to perform minor miracles in their name. So, I have absolutely no problem with the concept of gods in fantasy settings.

[Kajehase]

Since we're playing a game of pretend, I don't see why it should be a problem.

Sorry for not giving a longer answer, but well, I don't think it needs much more than that.

[Yuugasa]

Yeah, I'm an atheist but I like gods and religion in my pathfinder games, not sure why I wouldn't. I especially like the Golarion deities and religions.

Seems a silly question, along the lines of "If you're a nudist, how can you have clothes in your setting?"

[Yuugasa]

Ah, I guess your player could be confusing lack of belief in gods with hatred of gods.

[El Ronza]

I'm an atheist (from religious parents - father's Church of England, mother's Latter-Day Saints), and I have no problem with gods and religion in my fantasy games. Despite not following anything myself, I know that religion is a very powerful factor in the lives of lots and lots of people, and having those same factors in a fantasy campaign I'm running just makes sense - moreso when, as you said, the deities are actual, existing beings with a noticeable presence and influence in the world.

[Krensky]

Because its make believe and given the assumptions of most settings actual atheism is a crazy position since the existence of deities is relatively easy to prove.

[Talonhawke]

Well From a standpoint of a conservative christian I can't even see the issue. I would see more of issue arising from a Christian belief than from an Atheistic one.

[thejeff]

If you're a Christian, how can you have other false gods in your setting?
Same question. Same answer.

Because it's not real.

[ryric]

I can have a game with wizards without believing in real world magic too.

I think Yuugasa may have it right - the player is assigning his own definition of "atheist" that carries extra baggage beside just not believing in the existence of gods.

Heck, I've seen the reverse problem more often - players who are uncomfortable with the fantasy pantheon because it seems like heresy to them. The whole "if you imagine doing something bad you have done it" deal. I had a friend in middle school who redesigned D&D to remove all the religious stuff for that reason.

[Hama]

Talonhawke wrote:

Well From a standpoint of a conservative christian I can't even see the issue. I would see more of issue arising from a Christian belief than from an Atheistic one.

I know some atheists who hate anything that has to do with any kind of god with a burning passion.

I find it silly.
I mean I'm an anti-theist, but I still don't hate religion or the concept of gods...

[Logan1138]

Talonhawke wrote:

Well From a standpoint of a conservative christian I can't even see the issue. I would see more of issue arising from a Christian belief than from an Atheistic one.

Agreed.

When I was growing up in a devout Christian family, I had a lot of internal conflict about "gods" in D&D. I'm pretty sure I never played a cleric back then as it would have seemed sacrilegious . Now that I am no longer a "believer" (I don't know that I am a full-fledged Atheist), I have zero problem with the ideas of pantheons of "god-like" beings.

[Juda de Kerioth]

I let the gods happen in my game. Im an atheist too, and i have no problem with gods in the game, because they are fictional, like that one we have in our real world.

It is the same thing if you ask to your players: Why do you kill monsters, animals and foes if you absolutely don´t do that in the real world? or things like that

[Talonhawke]

Logan1138 wrote:

Talonhawke wrote:

Well From a standpoint of a conservative christian I can't even see the issue. I would see more of issue arising from a Christian belief than from an Atheistic one.

Agreed.

When I was growing up in a devout Christian family, I had a lot of internal conflict about "gods" in D&D. I'm pretty sure I never played a cleric back then as it would have seemed sacrilegious . Now that I am no longer a "believer" (I don't know that I am a full-fledged Atheist), I have zero problem with the ideas of pantheons of "god-like" beings.

.

I never really suffered from that conflict I grew up in a DnD is bad home without anyone ever really telling me why. When i finally did start playing I realized that you only had as much bad/evil as you put into it. If I couldn't play a game with non-real deities without it becoming and issue then how could i watch a movie or read a book that featured prominent Deific figures from other real world religions.

[Tacticslion]

YUUUUP.

[golem101]

Honest answer: because the fictional pantheon of different gods serves a precise function in the game of recreating an equally fictional setting, contributing in making it a plausible fantasy world (as much as an oxymoron as it may sound) and helping player immersion and identification in their characters.

Personal answer: why should I force my personal beliefs onto other players in a fantasy roleplaying game by having the setting mirror my personal idea of what is or is not a deity?

[LazarX]

Hama wrote:

I was asked this question on my last game, by one of my new players (who was obviously outraged that I don't believe in the same deity as he does)

It left me wondering though. Do you, atheist GMs, have a problem with gods and religion in the games you run? Or do you simply accept them as fact and go from there?

I, for one, find that in most settings, deities are actual, existing beings who interact with their believers and actually grant some of the more devout the ability to perform minor miracles in their name. So, I have absolutely no problem with the concept of gods in fantasy settings.

Some of us DO learn to separate real life from our gaming. No as an atheist myself, I have no problems with having gods in my campaigns, nor for that matter, even playing proselytizing clerics.

Just as I have no problem playing wizards and sorcerers even though I don't believe in the slightest in magic or supernatural beings.

[UnArcaneElection]

I do have a real hatred of everything divine, because of what everything divine of widespread distribution has actually done on Earth. So for me, the challenge is to avoid making or seeing everything divine (in any setting I am running or running in) to be Evil. This is not helped by the fact that AD&D 1.x Deities and Demigods explicitly allowed Good deities to act Evil (not expressed in quite those words, but not too far off), just as has happened in legends of the divine on Earth.

[TriOmegaZero]

Since most religious myths are also really good stories, I don't have a problem including gods in my games anymore than I do including other literary favorites like the Jabberwock or dryads and whatnot.

[Just a Guess]

I'm something similar to an atheist in that I do not think that god(s) have an effect on my life.

I have no problem with fictional gods or fictional versions of ancient gods. But I might have a problem with versions of contemporary RL deities like the Christian god or Allah because that would border on disrespect or blasphemy.
Because I usually follow a saying I once read:
"Only because I do not believe in a god I do not have the right to be disrespectful to him"*

* from memory and, if I remember right, the original I read was not in English.

[T.A.U.]

I'm a Christian theologian, ad as GM I have no problem having multiple gods in mine campaign setting, because it's a game setting, made for us to play with imaginary characters in an imaginary world.
It doesn't matter if mine friends, playing with me at the table, are Christians, Atheists or Agnostics, we all enjoy playing the game together.
And the game has nothing to do with our personal and different beliefs.

The same assertions are valid when I'm into player guise at the table of mine Atheist GM friend.

[Eben TheQuiet]

I'm actually more intrigued to know what faith the OP's player in question prescribes to. :)

[Jaelithe]

I'm a staunch Roman Catholic, and a theologian as well, but have no difficulty in portraying deities of other faiths, both historical and fictional. As a matter of fact, I include real-world religion in both my ongoing campaigns, one of which includes some fictional deities, the other not because it's a quasi-historical game (set in a reality where Islam's emergence does not cripple and destroy respectively the two superpowers of antiquity, Rome and Sassanid Persia). (My next campaign will likely be set in Europe during the Crusades, but not bound to strict historical progression and with plenty of fantastic elements.) I've found that a mature group of adults can really enjoy such interplay, so long as no one faith is presented as the GM's favorite, whether he or she subscribes to it or not. No complaints so far, and I've played with people from Asatruists to Zoroastrians.

[deusvult]

I have more problems with NPC atheists in the game world than real life atheists at the gaming table.

[Hama]

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

I'm actually more intrigued to know what faith the OP's player in question prescribes to. :)

He's an orthodox christian.

A newly minted one.

deusvult wrote:

I have more problems with NPC atheists in the game world than real life atheists at the gaming table.

Me too, but then, I am really annoyed with the way atheists are treated in most settings.

Refuse to worship a deity, here's a wall that slowly destroys your soul and your identity, oh and it's up for grabs to demons and devils to take and torture too.
Or refuse to worship a deity, get buried in a tomb forever.

[Talonhawke]

deusvult wrote:

I have more problems with NPC atheists in the game world than real life atheists at the gaming table.

Well you can still have some disbelief when you have powerful (especially if you use Mythic/Epic rules) casters who can alter reality at a whim gods would have to show off truly phenomenal ability to prove they are a god.

[Hitdice]

But how can you play a game with dragons in it? You're a zoologist! :P

[UnArcaneElection]

Hama wrote:

{. . .}

Me too, but then, I am really annoyed with the way atheists are treated in most settings.
Refuse to worship a deity, here's a wall that slowly destroys your soul and your identity, oh and it's up for grabs to demons and devils to take and torture too.
Or refuse to worship a deity, get buried in a tomb forever.

Wait -- that sounds awfully similar to the way religions on Earth treat atheists. Although many of those use a greater proportion of fire in the doom they prescribe for atheists . . . .

[Cyrad]

I'm a protestant Christian and I see the logic behind putting deities in your campaign even if you do not believe in the existence in real deities. Some of the greatest stories come from religious texts and mythology, and Pathfinder deities are really interesting characters.

Besides, it might make players uncomfortable if their GM has an atheist agenda just as if I made a setting where the Christian God was the only true God.

[Nicos]

BEcause it is a game.

[thejeff]

Hama wrote:

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

I'm actually more intrigued to know what faith the OP's player in question prescribes to. :)

He's an orthodox christian.

A newly minted one.

No fanatic like a new convert.

Hama wrote:

deusvult wrote:

I have more problems with NPC atheists in the game world than real life atheists at the gaming table.

Me too, but then, I am really annoyed with the way atheists are treated in most settings.

Refuse to worship a deity, here's a wall that slowly destroys your soul and your identity, oh and it's up for grabs to demons and devils to take and torture too.
Or refuse to worship a deity, get buried in a tomb forever.

I've actually got a setting in mind to run someday where the Gods, though worshipped by everyone, are actually frauds. Just old powerful people, keeping the rest of the populace down. Whether the PCs ever realize this or not depends on them.

[Hitdice]

Jeff, have you read Lord of Light by Zelazny?

[Triphoppenskip]

I'm an atheist in real life who tends to play clerics, paladins and warpriest in game. Run that one by your player and watch his head explode.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

"When a man ceases to believe in God, he does not believe in nothing; he believes in everything." - G. K. Chesterton

"Everything you can imagine is real." - Pablo Picasso

"'Who Is This God Person Anyway?'" - Douglas Adams

[Kthulhu]

The same way I can have elves, dragons, wizurds, and a bunch of other fantasy stuff.

[thejeff]

Hitdice wrote:

Jeff, have you read Lord of Light by Zelazny?

One of my favorites. The concept is loosely inspired by that.

[Claxon]

Because it's a game of make believe.

The Pathfinder Golarion setting comes equipped with deities in place, and while there are "atheists" on Golarion they exist only because they either refuse to acknowledge that the beings referred to as "Gods" are actually such (labeling them instead as just powerful outsider) or they claim they are not worthy of being worshipped because they use mortals for their own agendas (among other reasons).

So atheists in Golarion do not deny the existence of beings referred to as gods, but simply try to change the definition of what gods are or reject them because they don't like them.

It doesn't really make sense in my opinion, but the whole country that practices it is appropriately crazy, so it's fine within the setting and makes sense despite having easily obtainable proof that deities exist.

In Golarion lore, Gods are essentially fact. Mechanically this is represented by being a non-mortal (does not die from aging, infirmity or disease) and being capable of granting spells to followers, and possessing 5 domains which can be granted to followers. Those who grant less than 5 domains are usually demigods, demon lords, or some such.

[Dustin Ashe]

One particular Christian revived the mint-your-own-deities trend: Tolkien.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

One distinction that might be helpful to him is between someone who doesn't believe in God and someone who disapproves of religion. The two aren't the same.

I, for example, don't mind religion. Many religious organizations do a great deal of good. I don't believe God is real, I believe religious people are *mistaken*, not wicked.

Not believing in something isn't the same as believing it is bad. I like Doctor Who, I know it isn't real. I don't like fascism, it's real though.

Someone who doesn't believe in God can still run a world where gods are real, good (or as in PF, of various alignments), and have religions that are forces for good (and evil) in the world.

Another thing to remember is that Golarion doesn't have a God in the Christian sense. Serenrae may be very nice, but she didn't create the universe, doesn't have authority over all things, isn't eternal, isn't all knowing, and so on. None of the gods of Golarion fit the Christian theological criteria to count as capital 'G' God. The gods of Golarion are closer to the gods of the Greek pantheon. They're born, they have limited powers, they can die, etc...

"Atheists" in Golarion aren't people who don't think Serenrae is real (she obviously is), they're people who don't think she's a proper object of worship. The gods are simply extremely powerful beings, but no different in principle from any others. An Intelligence 30 lawful good gold dragon may be very good, very smart, and very powerful, but he isn't God in the way that Christians think of it (and neither is Serenrae).

A lot of the things we assume about theology are based on being brought up in a culture full of monotheistic religions. Why worship capital 'G' God? Well, He's perfect, He knows with absolute certainty what is best for everyone and loves everyone. Why *worship* Serenrae. Yes, she's good, but so are a lot of people. Yes she's wise, but she's not omniscient. Jehovah, in Christian theology, can't be wrong. Serenrae might be in Golarion. Maybe CG is a better alignment, maybe LG is. If you're wrestling with a moral crisis in Golarion "Serenrae says do X" isn't the end of the problem, maybe Erastil says "Don't do X". The gods of Golarion are really different kinds of things than the gods of real world monotheistic faiths.

[John Woodford]

Hama wrote:

He's an orthodox christian.
A newly minted one.

Just to clarify, do you mean THIS sort of Orthodox Christian?

[thejeff]

Dustin Ashe wrote:

One particular Christian revived the mint-your-own-deities trend: Tolkien.

That's a bit of a stretch. Information on "Gods" in LotR is pretty sparse. In the Silmarillion it's made clear that the Valar are closer to Angels than to gods and Eru Iluvatar is essentially the Christian God. That's hinted at in LotR, but not made too clear.

It's fun to blame Tolkien for everything, but it's not really true.

A more likely source in modern fantasy for D&D style "mint-your-own-deities" would be Howard. The gods in the Conan stories much more closely resemble what we see in D&D and other fantasy world building.

[unforgivn]

I don't see how the problem posed by OP is really a problem (unless the assumption is that players and GMs believe that the things that exist in their game worlds must also exist in reality).

[thejeff]

unforgivn wrote:

I don't see how the problem posed by OP is really a problem (unless the assumption is that players and GMs believe that the things that exist in their game worlds must also exist in reality).

I have run into Christians who have literally claimed that their God is the same God in all fictional worlds - regardless of world lore or the intentions of the author. Any deities who do not match their understanding of God are false gods even within the fictional world.

Seems pretty crazy to me and I can't quite wrap my head around how it works. Luckily, it's a extreme minority opinion. I've only seen it come up once or twice on the Internet.

[Terquem]

How can you play a game where rocks fall and kill everyone, you're an engineer, oh, wait, riiiiight.

[captain yesterday]

thejeff wrote:

unforgivn wrote:

I don't see how the problem posed by OP is really a problem (unless the assumption is that players and GMs believe that the things that exist in their game worlds must also exist in reality).

I have run into Christians who have literally claimed that their God is the same God in all fictional worlds - regardless of world lore or the intentions of the author. Any deities who do not match their understanding of God are false gods even within the fictional world.

Seems pretty crazy to me and I can't quite wrap my head around how it works. Luckily, it's a extreme minority opinion. I've only seen it come up once or twice on the Internet.

Lol! I have a brother that only plays as Clerics or Paladins of God, which one I ask, his eyes glare, the only one he says.... at this point I can throw my arms in the air and say whatever or argue it out for 3 hours or so, no middle ground, its a bit trying sometimes :-)

[Lord Snow]

I am strongly an atheist, however gods and their churches are some of my favorite aspects of roleplaying.

Honestly, paganism is kind of fun. All the gods are these imposing, powerful personalities. They intrigue, they fight, they die... gods are some of the most outlandish characters in any campaign setting they'll be in. You can have gods symbolizing certain philosophies or powers in the game world. You can hatch entire stories based on the struggles between churches. Religion is an easy yet interesting source of motivation for all sorts of NPCs. For example, I think part of the reason that Curse of the Crimson throne is such a good AP is that large parts of it are themed after interesting evil gods.

Has nothing to do with being an atheist in the real world, though. For rather obvious reasons.

[the Lorax]

Hitdice wrote:

Jeff, have you read Lord of Light by Zelazny?

Lord of Light is an amazing book on a number of levels.

One of the neatest is that you can treat the whole book as a loop, start reading it at any point, read to the end and start again at the beginning and read to the point you started at, and it still makes sense. I cannot recommend it strongly enough.

[Dustin Ashe]

thejeff wrote:

It's fun to blame Tolkien for everything, but it's not really true.

Not blaming, just pointing out the precedent.

If anything, Tolkein's "angels" sound like a pantheon of at least lesser deities to me. Perhaps he saw them as his analog for Roman Catholic archangels though. Either way, there seems like a lot of sources of divine power in Tolkein's setting whether or not The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings makes much use of them.

I haven't read any Conan....

[Jaelithe]

thejeff wrote:

I have run into Christians who have literally claimed that their God is the same God in all fictional worlds—regardless of world lore or the intentions of the author. Any deities who do not match their understanding of God are false gods even within the fictional world.

Seems pretty crazy to me and I can't quite wrap my head around how it works. Luckily, it's a extreme minority opinion. I've only seen it come up once or twice on the Internet.

Make that thrice.

I agree wholeheartedly with sentence one, but utterly reject sentence two.

If one believes that God is literally, truly all-powerful, omniscient and ubiquitous, in some fashion beyond ken, then not even a fantasy world would be outside His influence, and would have not come into being without Him. That doesn't mean, however, that said cosmos are aware of that (or Him) ... that other beings not aware of Him either might not have assumed the role of caretakers in their beneficence and/or calculation ... or that said place might not be functionally Godless, for all intents and purposes. But, by definition, there is no place, not even one of imagination designed specifically to exclude Him, beyond His influence or outside His power, no matter the desire of an author to posit that. It's the worst form of tyranny, from some perspectives, to say, "Even in your imaginings, He's there," but ... ultimately, that's what Christians who believe in the Omniversal God-King believe, even if they've never really explored said belief because it's unimportant to them.

It's not remotely "crazy," thejeff. It's the logical extension of believing God to be, as Steve Martin would say, "The All Being, Master of Time, Space and Dimension"—which means no other being can be. If He set everything into motion, then even the worlds conceived of to be without His influence are influenced by Him, albeit obliquely and from an astronomical distance.

I do not at all agree, though, that those gods are "false gods" in the sense that certain fanatical Christians might—that they are necessarily "demons" because they're not directly of God. You can certainly choose to do good and/or employ your power according to the fullness of your understanding, as I imagine the gods in such a reality would—intelligent beings of good will looking to help. God, if one believes in Him, may function, at His will, as Divine Intercessor, Benevolent Despot, Watchmaker, Absentee Landlord ... or, much to the indignation of some, Interloper.

It also doesn't (and shouldn't) affect game-play, unless your DM is some sort of triumphalist looking to trumpet his Judeo-Christian beliefs to an angry and uninterested audience. Hell, I'm a Catholic Christian, and I wouldn't tolerate that kind of game from a fellow game-master.

For a Christian, though, there are only two types of places: One, a place where Christ has been revealed ... and two, a place where Christ has yet to be revealed. The latter type of location can function however a DM wants it to, of course ... and a DM has every right to say, "Dude, you've never even heard the word 'God' before. This is a universe of empiricism, and you ain't got no data. So play your character and forget about anything that even smacks of Christianity, or you're out of character."

Slightly off topic, but still somewhat germane:

I've played in a game where another player asked the DM if he could play the first Christian on Athas, the Dark Sun setting of AD&D—that he might just emerge out of the desert (from Syria to Athas via inter-dimensional rift, I assume). The DM warned him that he wouldn't have any clerical powers and that his faith would be all he had, but that he could do so if he wished (which is what I think most DMs should do unless the request is so objectionable as to be offensive or game-disrupting/fun curtailing). I'll discuss how it played out if asked, but ... I've also seen Christians and Muslims played in Ravenloft and various home-brews.

I've refereed a game (for decades) in which the imported Abrahamic faiths are slowly overrunning the campaign world, with the gods of myth and fantasy fiction fighting a hopeless rearguard action. Some of the gods don't understand can't accept what's happening—how this single little "God" could be pushing all the pantheons back year by year, acre by acre. The elven empire that originally brought humans from Earth to their reality now have cause to regret doing so millennia ago.

In short, it's not crazy ... but it really should have nothing to do with gaming.

[Axolotl]

I'm an atheist, and I do find polytheism, animism, and fantasy settings with a bunch of fallible, not omnipotent gods to be quite fun.

I also like C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, as their protagonists don't hit the God/Eru Iluvatar auto-win button too much (Eagles notwithstanding). :)

Lord of Light--what an amazing, amazing book.

I usually play faithful characters in Pathfinder. Why not? The gods exist in that setting.