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If you don't like people being mean to your CHA 7 murderhobo, then do something to raise your CHA. Shopkeepers charging more has a mechanical effect, and should not happen without cause...
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If you don't like people being mean to your CHA 7 murderhobo, then do something to raise your CHA.
Yes, it is always a good idea to antagonize the heavily armed murderhobo.
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I wouldn't recommend dropping Cha through the floor as a Warlord. Getting a smaller number of maneuvers back off of your gambits means you can't use boosts or counters nearly as often (since you have to burn more swift actions just getting your stuff back), and you lose the side benefit of high bonuses on gambit attempts (which rocks for stuff like Unbreakable and Pinhole Gambit). And not having Cha as a prime ability score to push loses you the mitigation factor using it for Will lends to your poor Will save. Not to mention burning up the save DC on your maneuvers, which isn't a big deal for damage dealers but it sucks when you can't pin a denied Dex bonus or a daze to someone when you need to.
I wouldn't recommend dropping Cha through the floor as a Warlord. Getting a smaller number of maneuvers back off of your gambits means you can't use boosts or counters nearly as often (since you have to burn more swift actions just getting your stuff back), and you lose the side benefit of high bonuses on gambit attempts (which rocks for stuff like Unbreakable and Pinhole Gambit). And not having Cha as a prime ability score to push loses you the mitigation factor using it for Will lends to your poor Will save. Not to mention burning up the save DC on your maneuvers, which isn't a big deal for damage dealers but it sucks when you can't pin a denied Dex bonus or a daze to someone when you need to.
Good morning. :3
Also, yeah, that's why I said I'm experimenting with it in my head. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone but I think I could make it work with the right race/feat/maneuver options. At the very least I think I could make it roughly as good as a warblade used to be (recovering a maneuver as a swift action at minimum, sometimes 2) and the Will saves wouldn't be as a big a deal with the high natural Wis, +2 racial from dwarf, and steel soul.
Call it a curious musing. :P
Shopkeepers being RUDE or aggressive has NO mechanical effect, so is totally okay and should be expected.
Not really for reasons I already explained. The short version is that that standard NPC scores allow for people to have anywhere from a 6 to an 17+. That does not even include heroic NPC's or PC's.
That makes a 6 part of the norm for races with an ability score penalty, and a 7 part of the norm for races such as half-humans. With most races having a 6 for a large part of the population, and still having a functional society or not having been driven into extinction that 6 is the low end of normal, but not dis-functionally low.
Now mechanically speaking, assuming you don't want to care about how society works then I don't recommend going to a 6.
Also some GM's will have shop keepers raise the prices just for you, and that is mechanical since it affects your resources.
If you don't like people being mean to your CHA 7 murderhobo, then do something to raise your CHA. Shopkeepers charging more has a mechanical effect, and should not happen without cause...Generally a very poor idea.
Please note that I didn't say they should be charged more.
I don't play with a group of murderhobo types... crappy CHA actually means something in a RP group... Not so much with the people using Pathfinder as just a combat simulator.
If someone flies off the handle and starts screaming about CHA penalties only having a -2 modifier while murdering shopkeepers ingame...
Their characters obviously become wanted murderers, and are treated like the psychopaths they clearly are.
There is a time and a place for killing stuff, if they act out in town, there are consequences, as there should be.
Shopkeepers being RUDE or aggressive has NO mechanical effect, so is totally okay and should be expected.Not really for reasons I already explained. The short version is that that standard NPC scores allow for people to have anywhere from a 6 to an 17+. That does not even include heroic NPC's or PC's.
That makes a 6 part of the norm for races with an ability score penalty, and a 7 part of the norm for races such as half-humans. With most races having a 6 for a large part of the population, and still having a functional society or not having been driven into extinction that 6 is the low end of normal, but not dis-functionally low.
Now mechanically speaking, assuming you don't want to care about how society works then I don't recommend going to a 6.
Also some GM's will have shop keepers raise the prices just for you, and that is mechanical since it affects your resources.
I had nearly two decades of experience in retail before my current job, and trust me, rude people (low CHA) may not pay more, but I sure would treat them differently. I would do the minimum required to get them the HECK out of my store.
Absolutely low CHA affects how people interact with you. That is the stat you look at for that sort of thing in game!
It doesn't 'break society' to have a shopkeeper be rude, it just adds to the roleplaying aspect of the game (guess what, low CHA means low social skills UNLESS YOU PUT POINTS IN!).
If a +2 bonus from CHA means you are likeable, a -2 should obviously mean you aren't.
Characters keeping silent is for sure an option, and a wise one with a 7 CHA, but one might argue that silence itself is a manifestation of a low CHA score...
I mean, imagine this:
NPC asks PC a direct question... PC declares that his character remains silent... NPC asks question again, slightly annoyed...
There are many ways a low CHA manifests, putting a 7 in a score you deem unimportant is fine, but people really shouldn't complain when it actually comes up.
It seems that even mentioning it offends some people, which I always find amusing...
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I don't play with a group of murderhobo types... crappy CHA actually means something in a RP group... Not so much with the people using Pathfinder as just a combat simulator.
I agree 100% with Zilvar2k11.
Low CHA characters should always be allowed to roll in the same situations as high CHA characters.
However.
When role-playing, it's okay for someone to brag about how likeable their character is (CHA 18) and also for the DM to point out how NOT likeable someone elses character is (CHA 5 dwarf)...
If a high stat is good, a low stat is bad.
I don't understand how anyone could think otherwise.
I'm talking about role-playing situations, which murderhobo-types won't care about...
If you want to roll dice to determine how much people like you, go ahead. That's a valid approach, but sometimes just actually acting out how your character IS can be more fun.
I enjoy low CHA characters, it lets me drink at the table and stay in character. :D
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Grouchy McDiplomapants will never be as good at talking down a majordomo as Flirty McHotPants, but everyone agrees with that. The core of this whole fight seems to be that some people believe that Grouchy shouldn't even get a fair chance to talk, despite having put his resources that way, because he decided to dump his social stat. The argument of the raw attribute check, or the 'hey, you've got a 7 Cha, nobody wants to pay attention to you because you're a putz', isn't grounded in rules (or, IMO, common sense).
I don't think anyone has the opinion that Grouchy shouldn't be able to talk. In my groups, at least, whoever does most of the talking is making the check, however, so if Grouchy has been blabbing his mouth it's him making the check at d20-2(or whatever - maybe Grouchy has ranks in an appropriate skill). Flirty can roll to assist if he's been chiming in. The net result is that characters who are bad at talking end up not doing it much because they hurt the party when they do - or they don't care and blab away and the party fails checks. Either is fine.
And having a dumped Cha doesn't mean you're a bad roleplayer. Good roleplayers can play both high and low Cha characters. Personally I think that dumping Cha then playing your character as an erudite, sexy, charming social butterfly is a bit off - just like playing your 7 Str guy as a champion weightlifter is off.
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I've never understood this whole Cha dump thing. I briefly had point buys at my table and hated it. Now I'm back to rolling 4d6, take the best three, and re-roll 1's. I've been told mine is a "light" world.
As for RPing your stats, it's another thing I've never understood. Sure, you can play a guy with a 7 Cha as smelly, socially awkward and such, but you're still going to be expected to enter a weapons shop, pick up a battle axe and pay 10 GP for it.
In real life I've known A LOT of shy, socially awkward or generally smelly people. Most of the bars I go to have at least 1 or 2 "Regulars" who mutter to themselves, smell and sometimes get belligerent. They are still served though and they're not charged any more than any other dude. Why would it be any different in a fantasy RPG?
Plus there's the TV Trope Ash-hat posted upthread. Consider you're a Commoner, even say level 3 and let's even give you a Heroic array. You've run a bar you're whole life and you're a pretty good judge of character (Sense Motive +5). In walks a wild-eyed, 6.5' tall behemoth of a half-orc covered in spiked hide armor with a battle axe on one hip and a klar on the other. Flies circle him because he hasn't bathed the caked blood from his arms and every few steps he mutters something incoherent.
A menu window pops up in your head. You can either:
1. charge him the regular amount of gold, serve him and hope you make it through this alive
2. Grab the club under the bar and run him out of the place yelling
3. Sneer at his obviously uncouth ways and serve him the grog at double cost
Now if you go #2 or #3 you run the risk of battle. You've got a BAB +1, a Masterwork club (he's level 3 after all) and a 17 Str, so you're no pushover. Still that means you've got a total of +5 to hit so if the dude in front of you has NO Dex bonus you've got a roughly 50/50 shot of hitting. If you connect you're dropping 1d6+4 on your foe, an avg of 7 HP. Even if the giant is only level 1 you're going to need to stay toe to toe with him for 2 rounds and hope he doesn't have Ferocity. So... what are you going to do? Risk it all because this guy is crude?
Then the barbarian finally speaks:
"I'm terribly sorry to have bothered your patrons old man. My natural appearance and habits appear awkward and uncouth but in reality I've just been teleported here and didn't have the chance to freshen up. Perhaps you might pour me a draft of the lovely Redwulf Ale I spied behind the counter and then run me a bath?"
You see, this barbarian is actually about 9th level and has a Diplomacy +8 thanks to a Trait he took years ago. He's got a 7 Cha but once in the door and in conversation you realize he's a pretty nice guy with a terrible first impression.
You know who else is like that? Almost every hard-core gamer I've ever met. Initially there's a social stigma about us and coupled with our standard dress, slang in our speech and such we tend to be sort of ostracized (See: Big Bang Theory) however once you get us talking you'll realize that we're canny liars and blowhards (Bluff), practiced at the art of formal discourse and debate (Diplomacy) and some of us use those negative stigmas to get ahead in lunch lines (Intimidate).
TL/DR. Please stop assuming that, just cuz a guy in your game has a 7 Cha everyone should naturally loathe him just walking down the street. There are SO many other reasons for adventurers to be hated and feared (See: murderhobo) that their Base Ability Scores shouldn't be one of them.
Zilvar2k11, rolling the dice for every single interaction is an option, but not an option everyone will take...
Sounds like we play the game differently, I have actually had entire sessions where the dice never get picked up because we are all just playing our characters in situations that aren't deemed dice-worthy.
To each their own, as long as you are having fun, you are doing it right.
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Being punished over a stat choice when no such punishment is mentioned in the books doesn't sound fun. I would rather not torment my players in such a manner.
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Being punished over a stat choice when no such punishment is mentioned in the books doesn't sound fun. I would rather not torment my players in such a manner.
They also don't have rules in place to have characters arrested for murder...
There are two groups of people chiming in on this conversation:
1) Those who think a low CHA character isn't charismatic
2) Those who think a low CHA character has no penalties aside from a numerical disadvantage that barely affects combat...
Both sides are correct.
If my group decides to play our games in a fashion that involves treating low CHA characters as less charismatic than high CHA characters, that is our right.
If your group has you roll dice when you walk up to the town gates, that's fine too.
There is no wrong way to play the game, but I will never be convinced that the CHA 5 Dwarf is a slick fast-talker that is loved by everyone...
Sleazy salesman who gets his way, sure... He might be able to talk his way into someones pants, but being a likeable person isn't just about dice rolls. Taking a low CHA and putting a bunch of ranks into the CHA skills doesn't (in my opinion) make a character likeable. It makes them SKILLED, it makes them good at performing certain tasks. They still have a natural inclination to be less likeable than others.
This isn't a rule thing, it's a role-playing thing. It's how I (and my group) interpret the intended purpose of CHA. It's why we almost never have characters with low charisma scores. Even fighters in our games often have CHA scores of 12 or more...
If people want to see their characters as nothing other than numbers, that's fine. Some of us actually describe personalities complete with flaws and foibles, despite the rules not requiring us to do so.
When the dice get rolled, a CHA of 5 still has a -2 penalty, there is no arguing that point... I just wonder WHY that is... what is it about a CHA 5 character that gives them that penalty? Some people don't bother explaining the WHY of it... but to me, that is what makes my lvl 3 fighter with a CHA of 7 more than just a bunch of numbers... it makes him a socially awkward wallflower who learned how to fight in an attempt to impress girls... and as he gains experience and levels, maybe he learns how to talk to them a bit better, with SKILLS... but his basic personality (or in this case, his CHA score) doesn't increase! He isn't less shy, he isn't more likeable, he is better at talking because he learned a skill!
Some GMs, outside of combat, don't ask for rolls every 6 seconds. Sometimes conversations just take place and the GM wings an NPCs reactions based on his knowledge of the characters.
If a CHA 5 character with no ranks in Diplomacy is in this situation, you could just assume he's taking 10 I guess. So... result of 8.
Compared to CHA 20 uber-bard... , lets give him just one rank in Diplomacy... assuming he just took 10 as well... result of 19. That is a difference of two entire DC levels.
You could roll the dice, or you could just realize that the law of averages shakes out so that low CHA is low, and high CHA is high...
All I'm saying is that sometimes rolling the dice slows down the game. Some players like the randomness of having an occasional 20 on a random npcs reaction, but is it really necessary to roll that much?
Depends on your game. As I said, if your having fun, your doing it right.
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but to me, that is what makes my lvl 3 fighter with a CHA of 7 more than just a bunch of numbers... it makes him a socially awkward wallflower who learned how to fight in an attempt to impress girls... and as he gains experience and levels, maybe he learns how to talk to them a bit better, with SKILLS... but his basic personality (or in this case, his CHA score) doesn't increase! He isn't less shy, he isn't more likeable, he is better at talking because he learned a skill!
I don't mean to quote snipe, but this concerns me a little. I would absolutely expect your fighter's personality to change and and adapt as he experiences things, levels up, and becomes more confident and sure of his own abilities. Overcoming your shyness and talking to girls isn't really that scary when you quite literally face down dragons on a weekly basis.
As an example I played a gnome alchemist with a high intelligence but low wisdom. At low levels he was a bit of a know-it-all, very rash, and frankly a bit careless. He'd occasionally throw bombs into the melee, eagerly experimented with any and all magic items the party ran across, and at one point nearly amputated his own hand to replace it with a mechanical hand of his own (faulty) design..
After getting burned a few times, he learned to become more cautious and think things through before acting. Those personality traits (rash, careless) gradually diminished and were replaced with a knack for making sound but perhaps very complicated battle plans, and a penchant for excessive preparation.
There are careless adventurers and there are old adventurers, but there are very few old careless adventurers.
Ability scores can give you a guideline for your character's personality at level 1, but it absolutely shouldn't "straitjacket" you to keep that personality. Personality changes (abrupt or gradual) is some of the best RP material there is!
Ability scores can give you a guideline for your character's personality at level 1, but it absolutely shouldn't "straitjacket" you to keep that personality. Personality changes (abrupt or gradual) is some of the best RP material there is!
But on the other hand, ability scores for the most part never change and are almost like a rule what your character is. 7 CON character will always be frail and weak, 7 STR character will never lift more than 30 pounds or about 32 kilograms over his head. So worth and so worth.
Would adventuring count as healthy exercise that lets you get extra points in your CON? Some might even argue that wisdom is merely our ability to use life experience to correctly apply our knowledge. So LVL x INT = WIS
What is that ancient saying? Rules make a good servant but a bad master?
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but to me, that is what makes my lvl 3 fighter with a CHA of 7 more than just a bunch of numbers... it makes him a socially awkward wallflower who learned how to fight in an attempt to impress girls... and as he gains experience and levels, maybe he learns how to talk to them a bit better, with SKILLS... but his basic personality (or in this case, his CHA score) doesn't increase! He isn't less shy, he isn't more likeable, he is better at talking because he learned a skill!I don't mean to quote snipe, but this concerns me a little. I would absolutely expect your fighter's personality to change and and adapt as he experiences things, levels up, and becomes more confident and sure of his own abilities. Overcoming your shyness and talking to girls isn't really that scary when you quite literally face down dragons on a weekly basis.
As an example I played a gnome alchemist with a high intelligence but low wisdom. At low levels he was a bit of a know-it-all, very rash, and frankly a bit careless. He'd occasionally throw bombs into the melee, eagerly experimented with any and all magic items the party ran across, and at one point nearly amputated his own hand to replace it with a mechanical hand of his own (faulty) design..
After getting burned a few times, he learned to become more cautious and think things through before acting. Those personality traits (rash, careless) gradually diminished and were replaced with a knack for making sound but perhaps very complicated battle plans, and a penchant for excessive preparation.There are careless adventurers and there are old adventurers, but there are very few old careless adventurers.
Ability scores can give you a guideline for your character's personality at level 1, but it absolutely shouldn't "straitjacket" you to keep that personality. Personality changes (abrupt or gradual) is some of the best RP material there is!
There is no conflict between what I said and what you said. I would call roleplaying someone with a CHA of 5 as a ladies man/suave/likeable etc etc etc as very poor roleplaying UNLESS they had the skills to back it up.
However, increasing a skill isn't the same as increasing a stat. Putting ranks into Acrobatics doesn't make you more dextrous, it just makes you better at Acrobatics. Your chances of hitting things with thrown weapons don't improve because your BASE STAT didn't get any better. People looking at you don't say "my god he moves like a cat and has the aim of a GOD!!!" because your DEX 8 character just doesn't have that natural talent...
Raising your Perception skill just makes you better at noticing things, it does not improve your WILL saving throw, you simply increased your skill in noticing stuff. People don't talk about how WISE you have become because of your Perception skill.
Raising Diplomacy doesn't make you more likeable. It improves your chances of changing someones opinion of you. Your natural ability to perform with musical instruments doesn't get better... Charisma is the stat here. I have described it as an intangible something that determines your presence/likeability. That is what this stat is used for. Tacking on skill points doesn't make you better at anything other than the skills you have levelled.
Some people choose to roleplay their characters based on what their stats are. I describe my low STR characters usually as either frail or out of shape (obese). Low DEX characters I often describe as clumsy. You don't roll to pick up a glass in the game, but my wife (probably DEX 8) breaks them all the time. She is clumsy.
Trying to claim that a DM pointing out a characters (deliberately chosen) low stat has in-game repercussions isn't bullying. It isn't poor GMing, it is the GM trying to increase the level of immersion in the game.
Try to convince me that a STR 5 CON 7 character is a hulking mass of highly toned muscle and sinew... I will laugh at you. That is absurd.
Try to convince me that a CHA 5 character is intrinsically nice/likeable/other synonym for charismatic, same reaction. They can learn skills to make them better at specific things, but unless the CHA score increases, they are not CHARISMATIC... "that guy sure is a jerk, but DAMN is he a good diplomat, I wish we didn't need him to be the party face so often"...
Stats don't determine personality, but deliberately going against the grain when describing a character is jarring and negatively impacts my ability to picture the character as intended...
If a character with an INT of 5 is roleplayed poorly, people comment on it, why treat CHA any differently?
My group role-plays, other groups roll-play. There is no wrong way to do it.
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Hmm... Ok a few things.
I have both characters that max a stat and others that only make it 'high-enough to use' as well as others that are somewhere between.
I will often/usually dump a stat. Mainly because I think it is fun. Not too long ago, the stat generation method gave me a char whose lowest stat was an 11. I asked the GM to let me lower my wisdom to 8 (for no mechanical benefit) because my mental image for that guy was kinda clueless and unobservant.
I don't think I have ever dumped more than 1 stat. Though I might not raise a couple of them.
If I have a guy that has a 5 in strength or wisdom or intelligence or whatever, I role play him that way AND roll play him that way. Part of the fun is figuring out how to deal with and work around the dumped stat.
My weak oracle is basically going to cast ant haul any time he is carrying anything. he isn't going to offer to help break open the door because it would be stupid to try (even though mechanics says I have 7 in 20 chance of assisting for a +2 and no chance to hinder).
My 7 wisdom fighter has improved iron will and a maxed cloak of resistance. He's stubborn as a mule and doesn't like people messing with his head. But he still doesn't notice what is going on around him (perception -2).
I have also played a character that had a charisma of 6, but piled points into social skills in spite of that. Haven't you ever met someone that seemed unpleasant with no personality, but for some reason, they often seem to get their way at meetings/discussions?
Personal opinion time:
Unless you are making a One-Trick-Pony build, I think going for that penultimate 20 stat at level 1 is rarely worth it. Dropping your intelligence to 18 gives you quite a few points to put into wis, con, dex, or cha to make you much more survivable and versatile. It only changes your spell DC by 1. But it gives you more HP, AC, initiative, saves, social capability, etc...
Having said that, I sometimes build for that 20 dex because I want to be the most tricky/agile/quick person around. I do that even knowing it isn't the optimal thing to do, since it fits my concept.
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Separate topic. A lot of the argument/insult above is people intentionally not reading (or ignoring) what the other person wrote, taking it out of context, or taking it to ridiculous extremes.
I don't understand what that advantage they think that gives. You don't gain any money or other benefit from that last/longest/insulting post on a subject. You don't convince anyone they are wrong by ignoring or insulting them. It's really just silly. If one is not going to actually seriously consider what the other person has written, why bother posting at all?
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See, I like to take both ability scores, class features and skill modifiers into consideration when thinking of character appearance, demeanor and personality.
A character with 7 or 8 strength but lots of ranks in climbing will probably not be a huge mound of muscle, but he'll be wiry as all hell. You don't look like a wimp when you spend all your free time hanging upside down from a cliff by your big toe.
A character with a charisma of 8 (slightly below average) but tons of ranks in diplomacy for a modifier of +15 might come across as a jerk when he's with friends and he feels comfortable knowing that they can "translate" what he's saying, but he also has the option of not coming across as a jerk. Part of that diplomacy training should be realizing what aspects of his personality are grating or unpleasant, and either actively training it away, or at the very least learning to suppress it.
A few years back I took a yearly Communication & Conflict Management seminar with a coworker who's really a great guy, but has what could probably be described as having the worst bedside manner of all time. To give you a little bit of background on the guy, he started off working in an entirely different business and switched to studying mental health after an injury meant he couldn't work in his chosen field anymore. I think the charitable description of his personality would be blunt. He's also very tall and physically quite imposing. He took his job seriously and was a perfectly competent employee. However, because of the way he'd interact with patients he'd get numerous complaints and quite a bit of aggression (including physical abuse) aimed at him. Frequently I'd respond to a safety alarm to find a furious patient and my coworker with a bewildered look on his face. After a while the head nurse would deliberately avoid assigning him to patients with a diagnosis that could make them irritable or aggressive purely to avoid conflicts.
Back at the seminar he genuinely didn't realize what he was doing wrong until the teacher roleplayed (ironic, I know) some patient meetings with him, and then pointed out things he'd say or do that the patient could interpret as offensive. For example, jingling your key ring in your pocket while talking to a patient undertaking mandatory care in a secured unit = bad. To most people that's fairly obvious, but it never occurred to him that the patient could perceive this as insulting.
He took the seminar to heart and learned to interact better with others - among other things he became more patient, explained things more thoroughly, and actively used his body language to put patients at ease - don't place yourself in the only exit of a room, give patients a large personal space, stand sideways rather than head on etc. Over the next year his complaints record dropped significantly.
While he still has to put in some effort to pull it off and he still isn't quite as good at putting patients at ease as the grandmotherly psych nurse with 45 years on the job who can talk literally anyone into doing basically anything she wants them to (not kidding, The woman is a real-life Diplomancer. I've seen her cheerfully deescalate some of the scariest men in the country), but he still pulls it off well. It's also affecting his personal and social life, since he's started applying what he learned at work to other situations.
To put that into Pathfinder terms, Id' say my coworker has a low charisma. Since some find him physically intimidating, you could probably make a decent argument that he has Intimidating Prowess. He is a gifted nurse, but he has zero ranks in Diplomacy. After participating in the conflict management seminar and otherwise educating himself, he leveled up to Psych Ward Nurse level 2 and put ranks in diplomacy, which netted him a decent positive modifier. While he can still come across a bit brusque at times, he is now aware that he has a tendency to do so and is able to account for it when interacting with the world around him to the point where new people who meet him find him a pleasant and engaging man.
And that's the end of Kudaku's storytime from the psych ward today. Phew, typing that up took longer than I thought it would.
17 until level 4 bruhhhhhhhh
4 lyfe
Kudaku, maybe in Pathfinder terms he went from CHA 9 to 10?
In any case, I'm gonna comment on the original post, I rarely put my main stat at max unless playing a Sorcerer or Wizard... Currently building a character for a new game with no stats over 14 (16 after racial adjust).
Kudaku, maybe in Pathfinder terms he went from CHA 9 to 10?
That's possible but I doubt it, he's every bit as much of an ass when he's around people that knows him and won't be offended by his demeanor. That's partially why I found his progression so satisfying to watch - I could use his equally obnoxious brother as a control group!
Shopkeepers being RUDE or aggressive has NO mechanical effect, so is totally okay and should be expected.Not really for reasons I already explained. The short version is that that standard NPC scores allow for people to have anywhere from a 6 to an 17+. That does not even include heroic NPC's or PC's.
That makes a 6 part of the norm for races with an ability score penalty, and a 7 part of the norm for races such as half-humans. With most races having a 6 for a large part of the population, and still having a functional society or not having been driven into extinction that 6 is the low end of normal, but not dis-functionally low.
Now mechanically speaking, assuming you don't want to care about how society works then I don't recommend going to a 6.
Also some GM's will have shop keepers raise the prices just for you, and that is mechanical since it affects your resources.
I had nearly two decades of experience in retail before my current job, and trust me, rude people (low CHA) may not pay more, but I sure would treat them differently. I would do the minimum required to get them the HECK out of my store.
Absolutely low CHA affects how people interact with you. That is the stat you look at for that sort of thing in game!
It doesn't 'break society' to have a shopkeeper be rude, it just adds to the roleplaying aspect of the game (guess what, low CHA means low social skills UNLESS YOU PUT POINTS IN!).
If a +2 bonus from CHA means you are likeable, a -2 should obviously mean you aren't.
Characters keeping silent is for sure an option, and a wise one with a 7 CHA, but one might argue that silence itself is a manifestation of a low CHA score...
I mean, imagine this:
NPC asks PC a direct question... PC declares that his character remains silent... NPC asks question again, slightly annoyed...
There are many ways a low CHA manifests, putting a 7 in a score you deem unimportant is fine, but people really shouldn't...
I thought we were discussing rude shop owners because I thought you were going off of my earlier statement.
Grouchy McDiplomapants will never be as good at talking down a majordomo as Flirty McHotPants, but everyone agrees with that. The core of this whole fight seems to be that some people believe that Grouchy shouldn't even get a fair chance to talk, despite having put his resources that way, because he decided to dump his social stat. The argument of the raw attribute check, or the 'hey, you've got a 7 Cha, nobody wants to pay attention to you because you're a putz', isn't grounded in rules (or, IMO, common sense).
I don't think anyone has the opinion that Grouchy shouldn't be able to talk. In my groups, at least, whoever does most of the talking is making the check, however, so if Grouchy has been blabbing his mouth it's him making the check at d20-2(or whatever - maybe Grouchy has ranks in an appropriate skill). Flirty can roll to assist if he's been chiming in. The net result is that characters who are bad at talking end up not doing it much because they hurt the party when they do - or they don't care and blab away and the party fails checks. Either is fine.
And having a dumped Cha doesn't mean you're a bad roleplayer. Good roleplayers can play both high and low Cha characters. Personally I think that dumping Cha then playing your character as an erudite, sexy, charming social butterfly is a bit off - just like playing your 7 Str guy as a champion weightlifter is off.
There is a simple fix. If someone(player) with a low charisma says something elegant then have it be taken the wrong way if they roll low. Basically diplomacy checks are your ability to accurately get your point across.
That low str person and low cha person can try to go above their limits, but the stats will help take care of that unless they have gone to other means to counteract it.
There is no wrong way to play the game, but I will never be convinced that the CHA 5 Dwarf is a slick fast-talker that is loved by everyone...
Cha 5? So acceptable charisma is lower than I thought.
In any event nobody is saying that if you are at the bottom edge of normal people in a social that everyone will love you. What is said is that people should not treat you like a social outcast. There is a world of difference. You have been doing well so far. Don't be one of those who takes words out of context and uses extreme examples. I have noticed that it only annoys the other people you(not you specifically) debate/converse with.
This isn't a rule thing, it's a role-playing thing. It's how I (and my group) interpret the intended purpose of CHA. It's why we almost never have characters with low charisma scores. Even fighters in our games often have CHA scores of 12 or more...
If it isn't a rule it's not intended. The book never says "at a score of ____ you get treated differently". At best you can argue that at that score your group chooses to impose penalties that do not exist. It is not RP'ing. It is elitism. You can put makeup on a pig, but it is still a pig, and not I am not calling you or your friends pigs.
Are you going to argue that 1/6 or more of the people in the world are social rejects?<---I notice this stat seems to get ignored when someone tries to mention a certain stat as "too low to be not be randomly treated badly".
I dont require some elegant answer to try to justify your response. If you choose to answer I only ask for a yes or no.
edit: If someone dumps wisdom or intelligence there are no conversations saying "yeah I added additional penalty X". If it was about RP those would be penalized also. At least one poster directly said they were adding penalties to charisma to try to make up for the game did not do.
There is no such things as "good damage via Focused Shot" and there's nothing versatile about it.
Cha's mechanical penalties are negligible, if even extant. I pointed out exactly how you can easily bypass the penalties as any class.
Yeah Focus shot is not that great and I admit a pretty bad example.
I still say that for "buffer" casters, having 16 in their casting stat is perfectly acceptable to grab a bit more CON, DEX or INT.If your class does not use Charisma for anything, then dump it as low as you can!
My point was that in some cases it's ok to have stats that are a bit spread out in some cases.
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If someone dumps wisdom or intelligence there are no conversations saying "yeah I added additional penalty X". If it was about RP those would be penalized also. At least one poster directly said they were adding penalties to charisma to try to make up for the game did not do.
At least in my group we expect any bad mental stats to be properly roleplayed - if you dump Int generally no coming up with intricate puzzle solutions, no using large/obscure words, that sort of thing. If Wis is dumped we expect a certain amount of foolishness or naiveté; making suboptimal decisions, not weighing consequences properly, acting rashly. None of it is a hard or fast rule but we feel the stats should be a reflection of your character.
It's not about punishing people for taking a dump stat it's about matching the character to their stats.
Similarly we tend to mention difficulties with low physical stats as random flavor elements - a low Dex player may occasionally mention how they knocked over their drink, a low Str guy might complain about the weight of his gear. We had a 6 Con character once who kept asking the party to stop and let him catch his breath. No extra die rolls, no extra mechanical consequences, just roleplaying the stats.
Edit: And no, we're not going to tell a player of a 7 Int character "you wouldn't have thought of that." We're not that petty. These restrictions are all self-imposed and voluntary.
If someone dumps wisdom or intelligence there are no conversations saying "yeah I added additional penalty X". If it was about RP those would be penalized also. At least one poster directly said they were adding penalties to charisma to try to make up for the game did not do.
At least in my group we expect any bad mental stats to be properly roleplayed - if you dump Int generally no coming up with intricate puzzle solutions, no using large/obscure words, that sort of thing. If Wis is dumped we expect a certain amount of foolishness or naiveté; making suboptimal decisions, not weighing consequences properly, acting rashly. None of it is a hard or fast rule but we feel the stats should be a reflection of your character.
It's not about punishing people for taking a dump stat it's about matching the character to their stats.
Similarly we tend to mention difficulties with low physical stats as random flavor elements - a low Dex player may occasionally mention how they knocked over their drink, a low Str guy might complain about the weight of his gear. We had a 6 Con character once who kept asking the party to stop and let him catch his breath. No extra die rolls, no extra mechanical consequences, just roleplaying the stats.
Edit: And no, we're not going to tell a player of a 7 Int character "you wouldn't have thought of that." We're not that petty. These restrictions are all self-imposed and voluntary.
But in the gameworld 6's and 7's are common. Even 5's are common for races that are not half-humans such as half elves. Do you have commonly have NPC's with these problems too or had you just not noticed that a high portion of the population is likely to have issues if you(the group) decide the scores below X can be somewhat debilitating?
Or do you just handwave it, and only worry about the PC's?
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If someone dumps wisdom or intelligence there are no conversations saying "yeah I added additional penalty X". If it was about RP those would be penalized also. At least one poster directly said they were adding penalties to charisma to try to make up for the game did not do.
At least in my group we expect any bad mental stats to be properly roleplayed - if you dump Int generally no coming up with intricate puzzle solutions, no using large/obscure words, that sort of thing. If Wis is dumped we expect a certain amount of foolishness or naiveté; making suboptimal decisions, not weighing consequences properly, acting rashly. None of it is a hard or fast rule but we feel the stats should be a reflection of your character.
It's not about punishing people for taking a dump stat it's about matching the character to their stats.
Similarly we tend to mention difficulties with low physical stats as random flavor elements - a low Dex player may occasionally mention how they knocked over their drink, a low Str guy might complain about the weight of his gear. We had a 6 Con character once who kept asking the party to stop and let him catch his breath. No extra die rolls, no extra mechanical consequences, just roleplaying the stats.
Edit: And no, we're not going to tell a player of a 7 Int character "you wouldn't have thought of that." We're not that petty. These restrictions are all self-imposed and voluntary.
Where does it say anything about being likable or not in Charisma?
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
An attractive but shy character, who prefers comfortable clothing to fashionable clothing, and who would prefer to hang in the background, is bad at everything described in CHA and is suitable for a 7 CHA. Nothing about roleplaying that makes said character unlikable. In fact, if said character had 20 ranks in Diplomacy and could use their good INT score on Diplomacy thanks to a trait, they might even be a very likable attractive person. With 7 CHA.
That's just math.
If someone dumps wisdom or intelligence there are no conversations saying "yeah I added additional penalty X". If it was about RP those would be penalized also. At least one poster directly said they were adding penalties to charisma to try to make up for the game did not do.
At least in my group we expect any bad mental stats to be properly roleplayed - if you dump Int generally no coming up with intricate puzzle solutions, no using large/obscure words, that sort of thing. If Wis is dumped we expect a certain amount of foolishness or naiveté; making suboptimal decisions, not weighing consequences properly, acting rashly. None of it is a hard or fast rule but we feel the stats should be a reflection of your character.
It's not about punishing people for taking a dump stat it's about matching the character to their stats.
Similarly we tend to mention difficulties with low physical stats as random flavor elements - a low Dex player may occasionally mention how they knocked over their drink, a low Str guy might complain about the weight of his gear. We had a 6 Con character once who kept asking the party to stop and let him catch his breath. No extra die rolls, no extra mechanical consequences, just roleplaying the stats.
Edit: And no, we're not going to tell a player of a 7 Int character "you wouldn't have thought of that." We're not that petty. These restrictions are all self-imposed and voluntary.
But in the gameworld 6's and 7's are common. Even 5's are common for races that are not half-humans such as half elves. Do you have commonly have NPC's with these problems too or had you just not noticed that a high portion of the population is likely to have issues if you(the group) decide the scores below X can be somewhat debilitating?
Or do you just handwave it, and only worry about the PC's?
You better be sure that a NPC with a 6 in some stat is going to have that be apparent when PCs spend time interacting with them in my game. Hooks like that are gold for making NPCs memorable.
That said I don't think I'd say 6s and 7s are common at all. The NPC array doesn't go below an 8, which means that only non-human NPCs that happen to have a stat penalty in the stat where I put the low stat will be in that zone, barring important NPCs that I build by hand. That's a pretty small minority of characters.
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You better be sure that a NPC with a 6 in some stat is going to have that be apparent when PCs spend time interacting with them in my game. Hooks like that are gold for making NPCs memorable.That said I don't think I'd say 6s and 7s are common at all. The NPC array doesn't go below an 8, which means that only non-human NPCs that happen to have a stat penalty in the stat where I put the low stat will be in that zone, barring important NPCs that I build by hand. That's a pretty small minority of characters.
Pretty much this. If an NPC has stats, I play them the same way I would a PC's stats. If it's generic shopkeeper #7, I might give him a personality quirk or two - but in general shopkeepers are going to have decent mental stats as that's how they make their living. Random bar patron #4 could have anything going on.
If someone dumps wisdom or intelligence there are no conversations saying "yeah I added additional penalty X". If it was about RP those would be penalized also. At least one poster directly said they were adding penalties to charisma to try to make up for the game did not do.
At least in my group we expect any bad mental stats to be properly roleplayed - if you dump Int generally no coming up with intricate puzzle solutions, no using large/obscure words, that sort of thing. If Wis is dumped we expect a certain amount of foolishness or naiveté; making suboptimal decisions, not weighing consequences properly, acting rashly. None of it is a hard or fast rule but we feel the stats should be a reflection of your character.
It's not about punishing people for taking a dump stat it's about matching the character to their stats.
Similarly we tend to mention difficulties with low physical stats as random flavor elements - a low Dex player may occasionally mention how they knocked over their drink, a low Str guy might complain about the weight of his gear. We had a 6 Con character once who kept asking the party to stop and let him catch his breath. No extra die rolls, no extra mechanical consequences, just roleplaying the stats.
Edit: And no, we're not going to tell a player of a 7 Int character "you wouldn't have thought of that." We're not that petty. These restrictions are all self-imposed and voluntary.
But in the gameworld 6's and 7's are common. Even 5's are common for races that are not half-humans such as half elves. Do you have commonly have NPC's with these problems too or had you just not noticed that a high portion of the population is likely to have issues if you(the group) decide the scores below X can be somewhat debilitating?
Or do you just handwave it, and only worry about the PC's?
You better be sure that a NPC with a 6 in some stat is going to have that be apparent when PCs spend time interacting with them in my game. Hooks like that are gold for making NPCs memorable.
That said I don't think I'd say 6s and 7s are common at all. The NPC array doesn't go below an 8, which means that only non-human NPCs that happen to have a stat penalty in the stat where I put the low stat will be in that zone, barring important NPCs that I build by hand. That's a pretty small minority of characters.
Once again there is a 1/6 chance that that an 8 or 9 get stuck in each score. that is about 16.6% chance. That is pretty high. Once you add in racial penalties it drops to 6's and 7's.
I accounted for humans and half-humans in an earlier post already. Depending on the group some will treat you like the hunchback of notre dame once you get a 9 or 8.
My question is based on the world continuity since I want my worlds to make sense. If 1/6 of the world has a certain issue, and it is that bad then the game world has a big problem. That low score is still within the normal tolerance for most races.
I know every NPC in the world wont be statted out, but the stats should work out on a grand scale also.
I doubt even 1/6 of the NPCs in my games are non-human/half-human to start with. This seems like something where there will be extreme table variation.
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1) Those who think a low CHA character isn't charismatic
2) Those who think a low CHA character has no penalties aside from a numerical disadvantage
that barely affects combat...Both sides are correct.
This is more accurate. Charisma doesn't do anything beyond what it actually does. That's pretty much the point. Ascribing additional penalties and/or problems that are unrelated is as dumb as making someone with low Strength periodically roll to see if they're fatigued from carrying their usual gear even if it's within their weight limits. It's an invented penalty that doesn't exist and it comes off as extremely petty and spiteful.
There is no wrong way to play the game, but I will never be convinced that the CHA 5 Dwarf is a slick fast-talker that is loved by everyone...
Until the dwarf learns how to interact with people. I'm not sure how you've gone without noticing but it's entirely normal for people to mature up and learn how to better interact with others. It's literally part of human interactions.
Sleazy salesman who gets his way, sure... He might be able to talk his way into someones pants, but being a likeable person isn't just about dice rolls. Taking a low CHA and putting a bunch of ranks into the CHA skills doesn't (in my opinion) make a character likeable. It makes them SKILLED, it makes them good at performing certain tasks. They still have a natural inclination to be less likeable than others.
Sleazy implies moral corruption. But yes, actually it is. Diplomacy is explicitly used to make friends. You make people more interested in you, less hostile, and even explicitly "friendly", with the option for friendship to extend much longer than the default duration.
This isn't a rule thing, it's a role-playing thing. It's how I (and my group) interpret the intended purpose of CHA. It's why we almost never have characters with low charisma scores. Even fighters in our games often have CHA scores of 12 or more...
Jolly good for you.
If people want to see their characters as nothing other than numbers, that's fine. Some of us actually describe personalities complete with flaws and foibles, despite the rules not requiring us to do so.
And then you drop the ball. This is insulting, baseless, and entirely incorrect.
When the dice get rolled, a CHA of 5 still has a -2 penalty, there is no arguing that point... I just wonder WHY that is... what is it about a CHA 5 character that gives them that penalty? Some people don't bother explaining the WHY of it...
Nobody said they didn't. This is something you brought to the conversation that wasn't relevant when you did and hasn't been relevant since.
but to me, that is what makes my lvl 3 fighter with a CHA of 7 more than just a bunch of numbers... it makes him a socially awkward wallflower who learned how to fight in an attempt to impress girls...
No, it might mean he's a socially awkward wallflower trying to impress girls. It might also mean he's been hurt emotionally in the past and has trouble reaching out to people. It might also mean that he's confidence is uncontrolled and he comes off as aggressive or abrasive. It might also mean that he has self image issues and he second guesses himself constantly. It might also mean that he talks like Ben Stein. It might mean that he's brutally blunt. It might mean he's overly critical. It might mean that he's too nice and inclined to let people walk over him. It might be that he's extremely accepting of others and inclined to help people even if it's an inconvenience to him (this is literally an expression Charisma thing). It might mean he's really smart and has difficulty dumbing himself down to converse with others. He might be all that and a bag of chips but his body language is too aggressive or not aggressive enough. There are hundreds if not thousands of things that his Charisma could imply.
and as he gains experience and levels, maybe he learns how to talk to them a bit better, with SKILLS... but his basic personality (or in this case, his CHA score) doesn't increase! He isn't less shy, he isn't more likeable, he is better at talking because he learned a skill!
So basically, exactly how Charisma works in real life.
There is no such things as "good damage via Focused Shot" and there's nothing versatile about it.
Cha's mechanical penalties are negligible, if even extant. I pointed out exactly how you can easily bypass the penalties as any class.
Yeah Focus shot is not that great and I admit a pretty bad example.
I still say that for "buffer" casters, having 16 in their casting stat is perfectly acceptable to grab a bit more CON, DEX or INT.If your class does not use Charisma for anything, then dump it as low as you can!
My point was that in some cases it's ok to have stats that are a bit spread out in some cases.
Spread out stats are fine, but IMO you need at least a 16 in your attack stat to be truly effective in combat from 1st level. A 16 is lower than average, but workable. It kinda boils down to "I have the same attack bonus as a guy with Power Attack, but lower damage" which is workable.
Once you fall below that point, it gets iffy.
When I play an Investigator or the like, I do a stat array like 10 16 14 16 10 10 or dump Cha to 7 and boost Str and Wis to 12, depending.
The original topic was talking about something like 14s across the board though, like 14 14 14 14 10 10 which just makes you kinda mediocre at everything.
I doubt even 1/6 of the NPCs in my games are non-human/half-human to start with. This seems like something where there will be extreme table variation.
Even if half-humans are 50% of the humanoids in the universe that 7 is still present, and according to some the issues starts at 7. Why 7 is the problem number I don't know, but you are still not answering the question which has to do with a large number of people with a stat that causes issues. Even if I drop it to 10%, that is still a lot of people.
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Basically what I am getting is "how such a view on low stats affects the campaign world is irrelevant" or "I will pretend my personal rule has no implication on a global scale".
If that is how you want to play nobody is going to break into your house and steal your books, but when people dance around the issue it looks dishonest. Global consistency is less important to me and how my group feels PC's are affected by this stat is really all that matters, is a perfectly acceptable reason. Well as long as you don't go and say the game is/should be ran this way as a whole, especially when charisma has been shown to not mean you are likeable/not likeable by the book. It is basically your ability to influence people.
If you are a jerk with low charisma people may not even remember you because your personality is weak. If you are a jerk with high charisma you may be able to get their attention, even when they wish they could ignore you.
On the other hand people can like you, when you have low charisma, but you may have no ability to influence them.
A real life example of this is the nice guy who can't get the girl* vs the jerk who seems to get a lot of women because they have better social skills when it comes to attracting or influencing people.<--It's not just a trope.
There you have a well liked low charisma person.*
I doubt even 1/6 of the NPCs in my games are non-human/half-human to start with. This seems like something where there will be extreme table variation.Even if half-humans are 50% of the humanoids in the universe that 7 is still present, and according to some the issues starts at 7. Why 7 is the problem number I don't know, but you are still not answering the question which has to do with a large number of people with a stat that causes issues. Even if I drop it to 10%, that is still a lot of people.
I don't think 10% is too high of a number to reflect, say, the part of the population that regularly makes bad decisions (say, with substance abuse, or financial choices, or forgetting your girlfriend's birthday, or whatever roleplaying hook you want to give a particular low wisdom character) that would reflect a low wisdom, to give an example.
I'm not really getting your objection at all, to be honest. I know a DBA who broke 4 laptops in 5 months, spilled drinks on them, whatever. I'd be happy to call that a 6 or 7 dexterity and make it one of his defining traits if I based an NPC on him.
All this stuff seems really normal and expected to me, not anything that would have some kind of weird effect on the game world as a whole.
I doubt even 1/6 of the NPCs in my games are non-human/half-human to start with. This seems like something where there will be extreme table variation.Even if half-humans are 50% of the humanoids in the universe that 7 is still present, and according to some the issues starts at 7. Why 7 is the problem number I don't know, but you are still not answering the question which has to do with a large number of people with a stat that causes issues. Even if I drop it to 10%, that is still a lot of people.I don't think 10% is too high of a number to reflect, say, the part of the population that regularly makes bad decisions (say, with substance abuse, or financial choices, or forgetting your girlfriend's birthday, or whatever roleplaying hook you want to give a particular low wisdom character) that would reflect a low wisdom, to give an example.
I'm not really getting your objection at all, to be honest. I know a DBA who broke 4 laptops in 5 months, spilled drinks on them, whatever. I'd be happy to call that a 6 or 7 dexterity and make it one of his defining traits if I based an NPC on him.
All this stuff seems really normal and expected to me, not anything that would have some kind of weird effect on the game world as a whole.
From what I get most people act like people with a 7 charisma can't order a drink without getting very bad service, and people in general just automatically dislike them.
It you push that over into stats a very large part of the population is struggling with day to day activities. Also it is larger than 10%, but the number of people who are what seems to be largely dysfunctional is a lot smaller than 10%. Or maybe I have been lucky enough in my life to only work with and meet people who rarely have debilitating issues, so I think it is less common than it actually is.
That DBA is also a corner case.
My issue/objection is ignoring the implications on a larger scale while claiming "that is how it should be" for PC's. Yes I am aware that not everyone is saying "that is how it should be". I don't see the world functioning normally if that many people can't even order a drink, as an example.
The other issue is adding things that do not exist such as charisma meaning you are likable, while claiming it is an actual rule.
wraithstrike: I don't think either Ryric or I subscribe to the "charisma 7 means everyone hates you" thread of this conversation, though, and that's who you've been replying to here.
I don't think the roleplaying consequences of a low stat necessarily need to be dysfunctional or debilitating, but they do need to *exist*. And I don't know, almost everyone I know has some quirk that could be expressed as a low stat of some kind. (Mine is wisdom.) It doesn't mean that hordes of people are "struggling with day to day activities", and I don't think my stance that low stats should have an effect on how a character's personality plays out at the table means what you're saying it means.