Aside from how it requires 13 int and gates off a lot of feats that don't really need it, the benefits of combat expertise aren't half bad.
Hopefully Unchained will do something about it though. Apparently changes to the system are gonna help the Fighter enough that they didn't rewrite the class.
I agree with Alex that it is actually a good feat in its own right. The problem is that it is used as a prerequisite for so many other things.
Exactly. It's not the Feat by itself, but the fact that there are tons of useful Feats you can't take unless you have this one that's the problem. Remove that, and people can take it or leave it as they see fit, but it won't prevent them from the "Improved X Combat Maneuver" they DO want or need for their build.
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To provide a dissenting voice, I think Combat Expertise is fine and have used it to good effect in games.
I guess I just don't "get" most of the objections. It seems like most of them presuppose a boards-optimization style of playing the game that assumes a lot of truisms which may not be accurate.
"A character shouldn't have to be smart to trip/disarm/dirty trick people!" - usually with a comparison to some MMA fighter or something. This statement ignores the fact that you don't have to have the improved maneuver feat to do the maneuver - you only need it to avoid the AoO. Oddly enough, you know what would help you avoid the AoO? More AC, such as from Combat Expertise. Also it's kind of insulting to assume some TV persona isn't very smart. (They may not be, it's just the presumption that's insulting)
"13 Int is smart enough to cast 3rd level spells!" - 13 Int and five wizard levels. Funny how that last part keeps getting left out.
"Combat Expertise makes you worse at the maneuvers that require it!" - Power Attack makes you worse at bull rushing. If you choose to use CE when tripping or disarming you still get the AC boost - if you don't want the AC boost don't use it?
If your style of play is offence oriented, dump as many stats as you can down to 7 or 8, kill them quickly because I have no defense rocket tag, then the objections in this thread make sense. I suspect the vast majority of games aren't actually played that way, and in more moderate games Combat Expertise is a pretty good choice.
Personally if the concept fits I'm willing to start a martial with 16 Str and 13 Int rather than 18 Str and 7 Int.
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If your style of play is offence oriented, dump as many stats as you can down to 7 or 8, kill them quickly because I have no defense rocket tag, then the objections in this thread make sense.
Thanks for naming the elephant in the room! We all know that e.g. Nicos really hates making fighters with above 7 Int and Aelryinth constantly preaches the hopelessness of defense, and the rest of us too are all stat dumpers who would rather play all our martials with 7 Int and Cha.
Indeed, I myself have always posted about how much I hate playing characters with well rounded ability scores and capabilities, so yes, overall, you nailed it, that's the way to explain this otherwise incomprehensible dislike of Combat Expertise. :)
"A character shouldn't have to be smart to trip/disarm/dirty trick people!" - usually with a comparison to some MMA fighter or something. This statement ignores the fact that you don't have to have the improved maneuver feat to do the maneuver - you only need it to avoid the AoO. Oddly enough, you know what would help you avoid the AoO? More AC, such as from Combat Expertise. Also it's kind of insulting to assume some TV persona isn't very smart. (They may not be, it's just the presumption that's insulting)
I know bringing in RL comparisons is usually dodgy, but I personally just can't wrap my head around CE - and by extension all the combat maneuvers that derive from it - requiring Int 13. It doesn't make any thematic sense except to solely justify itself. If it was Dex 13 instead, for example, that be less problematic because I can easily visualize things like tripping or disarming opponents without provoking AoOs as something that would require a modicum of dexterity.
"Combat Expertise makes you worse at the maneuvers that require it!" - Power Attack makes you worse at bull rushing. If you choose to use CE when tripping or disarming you still get the AC boost - if you don't want the AC boost don't use it?
Again, this is a thematic thing. Using power attack at the same time as you used bull rush or sunder is also mechanically worse, but at least they're thematically related. Power Attack: "I'm going to hit you extra hard!" Sunder "I'm going to hit your gear so hard it breaks!" Bull Rush: "I'm going to hit you so hard you're going flying backwards!" Combat Expertise, on the other hand, is a defensive feat that acts as a prerequisite for offensive feats.
If your style of play is offence oriented, dump as many stats as you can down to 7 or 8, kill them quickly because I have no defense rocket tag, then the objections in this thread make sense. I suspect the vast majority of games aren't actually played that way, and in more moderate games Combat Expertise is a pretty good choice.
Personally if the concept fits I'm willing to start a martial with 16 Str and 13 Int rather than 18 Str and 7 Int.
Generally speaking, 3.x is oriented more toward offense than defense - just look at damage output vs. healing. Furthermore, even without an emphasis on offense, it's just not an efficient tradeoff if you're using a point-buy system. You mention dumping Int down to 7. Well, going from an Int of 13 to an Int of 7 is enough to bump Dex from 13 to 16, which is a net +2 to AC nearly all of the time, +2 to reflex saves, +2 to initiative, and +2 to lots of useful skills. Even if you don't like stat dumping (and I don't) it's enough to boost your dex from a 12 to a 14, which is still a net gain of +1.
In other words, no matter how you slice it bumping your Int to 13 just to use CE is probably not worth it, regardless of your style of play.
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If your style of play is offence oriented, dump as many stats as you can down to 7 or 8, kill them quickly because I have no defense rocket tag, then the objections in this thread make sense. I suspect the vast majority of games aren't actually played that way, and in more moderate games Combat Expertise is a pretty good choice.
Personally if the concept fits I'm willing to start a martial with 16 Str and 13 Int rather than 18 Str and 7 Int.
I like the idea of a smart fighter so much I went and published some archetypes and feats that I designed specifically to reward high-INT martials, yet I still dislike Combat expertise for many of the reasons mentioned.
Not every instance of people disagreeing with you can just be handwaved away with a declaration of "Bah, it's just those silly stat-dumping munchkins again, there's no real issue here!" So if you want to keep any kind of credibility, you might want to take the time to thoughtfully consider others' points of view instead of just assuming any problem you don't share doesn't really count.
I'd personally remove CE as a requirement but keep the 13 Int for those Improved feats lol
Combat Expertise isn't so bad as a feat for front-liners.
The problem is that the Venn diagram of 'people who want to play characters with high intelligence', 'people who want to play characters with access to Improved Trip and other combat feats' and 'people who frequently want to sacrifice attack bonus for AC' doesn't have much overlap in the middle.
Combat Expertise isn't so bad as a feat for front-liners.
The problem is that the Venn diagram of 'people who want to play characters with high intelligence', 'people who want to play characters with access to Improved Trip and other combat feats' and 'people who frequently want to sacrifice attack bonus for AC' doesn't have much overlap in the middle.
Honestly I don't consider INT 13 "High intelligence"
In what world that is not an importnat part?This statement ignores the fact that you don't have to have the improved maneuver feat to do the maneuver - you only need it to avoid the AoO.
Well, some posts make it seem that without the feat you cannot trip at all
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I love making combat maneuver checks against creatures that either can't hit me, or don't do enough damage to make a difference.
My barbarian grappled a fey last night, and the AoO didn't even overcome his DR, meaning no penalty on his roll.
I have a lot of luck disarming archers that can't take AoOs with their bow.
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Well, some posts make it seem that without the feat you cannot trip at allIn what world that is not an importnat part?This statement ignores the fact that you don't have to have the improved maneuver feat to do the maneuver - you only need it to avoid the AoO.
Remembering that damage from the AoO is applied as a penalty to the CMB check, "will provoke an AoO" and "can't do it at all" become pretty close to the same thing in most situations.
Honestly I don't consider INT 13 "High intelligence"Combat Expertise isn't so bad as a feat for front-liners.
The problem is that the Venn diagram of 'people who want to play characters with high intelligence', 'people who want to play characters with access to Improved Trip and other combat feats' and 'people who frequently want to sacrifice attack bonus for AC' doesn't have much overlap in the middle.
That's 3 higher than normal. Would you consider the reverse, taking intelligence to a 7, having a low intelligence?
Matthew Downie: Couldn't agree more.
My PCs aren't monsters.
Maybe it's about exploiting the reach of enemy monsters. To get in melee range you have to eat up an AoO, and unless they have Combat Reflexes you can now do a combat maneuver with impunity
My PCs aren't monsters.Maybe it's about exploiting the reach of enemy monsters. To get in melee range you have to eat up an AoO, and unless they have Combat Reflexes you can now do a combat maneuver with impunity
Or your PC's can turn into monsters. A simple Alter Self can change you into a Sewer Troll with a reach of 10' with it's claws.
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Remembering that damage from the AoO is applied as a penalty to the CMB check, "will provoke an AoO" and "can't do it at all" become pretty close to the same thing in most situations.Well, some posts make it seem that without the feat you cannot trip at allIn what world that is not an importnat part?This statement ignores the fact that you don't have to have the improved maneuver feat to do the maneuver - you only need it to avoid the AoO.
Unless the AoO misses, which was kind of the point. You can build characters where the foes need 15 or higher on the d20 to hit you, which makes combat maneuvers an option even without the Improved feats. It doesn't even take many resources to have a good defense, it just takes some attention.
Assuming that all the enemy's attacks hit is sort of where I was going with my hyperbole about dumping stats and rocket tag. I wasn't deliberately attacking any one person's point of view. I was just saying that if you ignore defense, I can see how a feat about increasing your defense is annoying on your quest to trip people. (IME it's usually about trip; very rarely is there a build about disarm/dirty trick/reposition)
I'm not trying to dismiss your arguments with a handwave of munchkinism(note I didn't bring that up - I said stat dumping and rocket tag and any insult was unintended). I'm just trying to say that a lot of these arguments seem to stem from a "boards wisdom" style of play to me, and I don't find these particular arguments convincing. I'm willing to be convinced but so far it hasn't happened.
No one is having badwrongfun.
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Honestly I don't consider INT 13 "High intelligence"
Honestly all of the irritation of the feat being a prerequisite for everything in the world aside, I would actually have a lot less of an issue with Combat Expertise if it required 12 intelligence instead of 13. Having to pay for the extra point of Int that literally does nothing to help you besides qualify you for a feat with arbitrary prerequisites is like another small "f$+@ you" from whoever wrote Pathfinder's version of Combat Expertise.
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Honestly all of the irritation of the feat being a prerequisite for everything in the world aside, I would actually have a lot less of an issue with Combat Expertise if it required 12 intelligence instead of 13. Having to pay for the extra point of Int that literally does nothing to help you besides qualify you for a feat with arbitrary prerequisites is like another small "f!@& you" from whoever wrote Pathfinder's version of Combat Expertise.
Honestly I don't consider INT 13 "High intelligence"
Unfortunately, I believe having feats require an odd stat is just part of the system. It's to give a reason to have odd stats other than 'I may get a +1 down the line in this stat'.
Honestly all of the irritation of the feat being a prerequisite for everything in the world aside, I would actually have a lot less of an issue with Combat Expertise if it required 12 intelligence instead of 13. Having to pay for the extra point of Int that literally does nothing to help you besides qualify you for a feat with arbitrary prerequisites is like another small "f&*@ you" from whoever wrote Pathfinder's version of Combat Expertise.
Honestly I don't consider INT 13 "High intelligence"
Actually it bothers me that every stat requirement for every feat is an odd number. It's made on purpose to waste a point of ability score
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Yeah that was a fundamental point of d20 design - you get roll bonuses at even scores, so all feat prereqs are odd, to try and make odd scores have value. I can see where they were trying to go with it, but it would make more sense if:
-All ability scores were represented somewhat evenly
-There was a wider range of required scores
Instead we have a bunch of 13s, concentrated in Str, Dex, and Int.
If every odd score from 11-17 was represented, I think we would feel better having to incorporate odd scores into our builds to meet prereqs.
Seems to me people don't have a problem with Combat Expertise at all, but with the fact that it is a prerequisite for many other, more interesting feats.
Seems to me people don't have a problem with Combat Expertise at all, but with the fact that it is a prerequisite for many other, more interesting feats.
Actually I'd hate it less if it at least contributed to the feats it's a prerequisite for.
Or your PC's can turn into monsters. A simple Alter Self can change you into a Sewer Troll with a reach of 10' with it's claws.My PCs aren't monsters.Maybe it's about exploiting the reach of enemy monsters. To get in melee range you have to eat up an AoO, and unless they have Combat Reflexes you can now do a combat maneuver with impunity
Polymorph rules are actually fairly unclear about giving reach, and nonstandard reaches are definitely not listed as an ability allowed for alter self.
So the jury may be out on that one.
My swashbuckler disarms and trips with his whip all the time, despite having neither CE nor any of its maneuver follow-ons.My PCs aren't monsters.
That being said, reach weapons work wonderfully.
Yeah, reach is nice.
The distinction between Int 12 and Int 13 has another bad side effect in that it can tempt you into investing in Int 14 to get an extra skill point each level. It is just a -1 on my Will save, you tell yourself, it will only make a difference 5% of the time - then you have to sit through hours upon hours of game time either doing nothing or doing counterproductive things because you failed another Will save...oh, the misery...
As an aside, does anybody know why the Sewer Troll has 10 foot reach with its claws? Does it have really long arms? Can it stretch like Dhalsim?
The sewer troll's flavor text indicates that it's claws "drag along the ground", so it definitely has some very large arms.
Or your PC's can turn into monsters. A simple Alter Self can change you into a Sewer Troll with a reach of 10' with it's claws.My PCs aren't monsters.Maybe it's about exploiting the reach of enemy monsters. To get in melee range you have to eat up an AoO, and unless they have Combat Reflexes you can now do a combat maneuver with impunityPolymorph rules are actually fairly unclear about giving reach, and nonstandard reaches are definitely not listed as an ability allowed for alter self.
So the jury may be out on that one.
It's actually very clear that you get the creatures natural attacks. PRD magic section[polymorph]: "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks."
Also if you look at spells like beast shape, giant shape, dragon shape, Undead Anatomy, plant shape, Elemental Body, Monstrous Physique and Vermin Shape do NOT have reach as a listed ability. it's normally gained with increasing your size but some natural attacks, like the sewer troll, also grant it. The sewer trolls reach is as much a part of the natural attack as it's damage, crit and damage type.
Seems for most CE seems to be ok as an isolated choice feat (I agree) but is generally despised as a prerequisite for martials (and that int requirement..we dont all play 30 point buys).
However what truly still has me in wonder is WHY? Many threads like this before and the designer's approach is to put more CE and Int requirements in the soup. Why?
I want to hit 100% with my trip so I'll trade hit for AC and dump my dex so I can have 13 int. Thanks. Hey want that Lunging Spell Touch? Better have Heavy Armour proficiency and 13 strength. I think that if you find this silly you ought to find the CE/Int issue silly too.
And no, Improved Bullrush needing Power Attack is not an excuse for CE requirement because both hurt Your to-hit. They are just both poor design choices. And PWA is something someone with a lot of STR (bullrushers will have str) actually want.
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If your style of play is offence oriented, dump as many stats as you can down to 7 or 8, kill them quickly because I have no defense rocket tag, then the objections in this thread make sense.Thanks for naming the elephant in the room! We all know that e.g. Nicos really hates making fighters with above 7 Int and Aelryinth constantly preaches the hopelessness of defense, and the rest of us too are all stat dumpers who would rather play all our martials with 7 Int and Cha.
Indeed, I myself have always posted about how much I hate playing characters with well rounded ability scores and capabilities, so yes, overall, you nailed it, that's the way to explain this otherwise incomprehensible dislike of Combat Expertise. :)
Remember, if you ever think Pathfinder might have some flaw or imperfection, you're just failing to grasp the divine perfection of the God-Devs' ineffable plan.
It's not great for CMB, but its excellent for CMD.