Taking the Archetype of Hexcrafter or Kensai? Right now I've got a 12/1 Kensai/Inspired Blade heavily built around Arcane Deeds & Intensify/Empower shenanigans.
Thought about converting over to Hexcrafter... not sure though.
They play entirely differently. There's not really a "stronger" since it's going to wind up depending on so many game-specific variables it's not even funny.
Obvious example: one of the Hexcrafter's advantages is that it never runs out of hexes. This makes it very good for GMs with a lot of combats per day, especially when compared to the Kensai's more limited uses of spells. But if your GM only has one encounter per day, who cares?
With the coming of Arcane deed(precise strike) i think the dex magus over took the str magus. And therebye the kensai, who dont use armor, is sligthly better suiter for the dex focus IMOP.
Also the fact that the major witch power boosts from the same book, hex vulnerability and spirit Talker isent availabel to the hex Crafter is hurting a bit.
The hex Crafter is still a powerfull class and with level to dam before casting spells he can be great and amazing. But i think the kensai takes the leed because of better defense.
I have had a hex Crafter planned for a long time that i just remake as a shaman and it looks great:)
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cap. Darling wrote: With the coming of Arcane deed(precise strike) i think the dex magus over took the str magus. Where have you been? That happened long ago, with Dervish Dance forming the basis of the cookie-cutter builds.
Classic case of Apple and oranges. If I had to pick one id say that the kensai is harder to make work and to service the early stages but more rewarding.
Cap. Darling wrote: With the coming of Arcane deed(precise strike) i think the dex magus over took the str magus. And therebye the kensai, who dont use armor, is sligthly better suiter for the dex focus IMOP.
Also the fact that the major witch power boosts from the same book, hex vulnerability and spirit Talker isent availabel to the hex Crafter is hurting a bit.
The hex Crafter is still a powerfull class and with level to dam before casting spells he can be great and amazing. But i think the kensai takes the leed because of better defense.
I have had a hex Crafter planned for a long time that i just remake as a shaman and it looks great:)
-There's nothing in the world stopping a Hexcrafter from going Dex based. They just need an armor with a high Max-Dex... we have a couple at infinite and a fair number at "high enough to handle whatever you have until you're getting Wishes"
-There's nothing in the world stopping a Str-based Magus from using Precise Strike (they just need a rapier, which has always been one of their best weapons)
-Hex Vulnerability is a Curse, so it's on the Hexcrafter spell list
Personally, I like apples. Except delicious- you can keep them. Tangerines are superior to oranges in all ways but size.
Seriously, though- besides your levels, what kind of build are you working with?
LazarX wrote: Cap. Darling wrote: With the coming of Arcane deed(precise strike) i think the dex magus over took the str magus. Where have you been? That happened long ago, with Dervish Dance forming the basis of the cookie-cutter builds. Dervish Dance is dex to damage not level to damage. Plenty of good options to have comparative good damage and AC with armor and two handling the weapon. Bit since precise strike adds around what you could get by two handling and power attacking with out penalty to attack those options fader a little. IMOP.
kestral287 wrote: Cap. Darling wrote: With the coming of Arcane deed(precise strike) i think the dex magus over took the str magus. And therebye the kensai, who dont use armor, is sligthly better suiter for the dex focus IMOP.
Also the fact that the major witch power boosts from the same book, hex vulnerability and spirit Talker isent availabel to the hex Crafter is hurting a bit.
The hex Crafter is still a powerfull class and with level to dam before casting spells he can be great and amazing. But i think the kensai takes the leed because of better defense.
I have had a hex Crafter planned for a long time that i just remake as a shaman and it looks great:)
-There's nothing in the world stopping a Hexcrafter from going Dex based. They just need an armor with a high Max-Dex... we have a couple at infinite and a fair number at "high enough to handle whatever you have until you're getting Wishes"
-There's nothing in the world stopping a Str-based Magus from using Precise Strike (they just need a rapier, which has always been one of their best weapons)
-Hex Vulnerability is a Curse, so it's on the Hexcrafter spell list - but kensai Will get more from these armors since they get int to AC. And eventually they an leave armor behind and be better of.
- the advanced of str over dex used to be damage, because two handing with str and power attack gave a Nice boost to damage. If you use precise strike you Will out damage some one using a weapon in 2 hands. And the gain to power attack wont be enough to change that. So yes you Can go str and still be great and powerfull but you wont out damage dex users any more.
-a curse. Wow i missed that. That is nice. An important point to the hex crafter.
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Hexcrafter is the better caster (Hexes all night long) while Kensai are the better martial (INT to AC, Crits, AoOs & Initiative).
I'm playing a Kensai in PFS right now and really enjoying it.
As others have stated, this archetype really lends itself to a DEX-based approach. As a human and with the proper Weapon choice, you can achieve DEX for both your to-hit and damage at level one.
Reliance on only two stats means you can safely dump both STR and CHA if you're so inclined. The scaling AC bonus from Canny Defense really incentivizes a higher INT score than most Magus builds will generally require.
Hexcrafters are best at debuffing and then smacking enemies. I have never played one, but based on threads here as well as some excellent guides I've read, they seem at their best when they're built to stack a metric crapton of deleterious status effects on the bad guys.
I play my Kensai as a scout who can frontline and nova for high damage when it's required. The plan is for him to eventually become an AoO machine with Combat Reflexes, The full Step Up and Strike chain and a Fortuitous Aldori Dueling Sword.
Feel free to check out my page if you want to check out my build so far.
Spells are the most powerful thing in the game. Kensai gets fewer spells.
deuxhero wrote: Spells are the most powerful thing in the game. Kensai gets fewer spells. this is like saying that the exploiter wizard is less powerfull than a sin wizard diviner.
You Can take what is generally true and use it to look at specific things and therebye draw wrong conclusions.
Cap. Darling wrote: Dervish Dance is dex to damage not level to damage. Plenty of good options to have comparative good damage and AC with armor and two handling the weapon. Bit since precise strike adds around what you could get by two handling and power attacking with out penalty to attack those options fader a little. IMOP. The problem with your pre-precise strike comparison is mostly thus however, why is the Magus using a weapon two-handed?
Sure, it helps on a charge or other similar circumstances, but for most of the time, I believe the expectation was to be making gross use of spell combat, was it not?
Anyway; The choice mostly depends on whether or not you'd actually use the hexes available. If you're already planning a lump of feats and arcana - Hexcrafter would probably get in the way.
Physically Unfeasible wrote: Cap. Darling wrote: Dervish Dance is dex to damage not level to damage. Plenty of good options to have comparative good damage and AC with armor and two handling the weapon. Bit since precise strike adds around what you could get by two handling and power attacking with out penalty to attack those options fader a little. IMOP. The problem with your pre-precise strike comparison is mostly thus however, why is the Magus using a weapon two-handed?
Sure, it helps on a charge or other similar circumstances, but for most of the time, I believe the expectation was to be making gross use of spell combat, was it not?
Anyway; The choice mostly depends on whether or not you'd actually use the hexes available. If you're already planning a lump of feats and arcana - Hexcrafter would probably get in the way. using the weapon two handed is not bad on a str based magus in the rounds after casting frostbite. Or when killing less important foes.
Cap. Darling wrote: - but kensai Will get more from these armors since they get int to AC. And eventually they an leave armor behind and be better of.
- the advanced of str over dex used to be damage, because two handing with str and power attack gave a Nice boost to damage. If you use precise strike you Will out damage some one using a weapon in 2 hands. And the gain to power attack wont be enough to change that. So yes you Can go str and still be great and powerfull but you wont out damage dex users any more.
-a curse. Wow i missed that. That is nice. An important point to the hex crafter.
Why... would a Kensai ever use an armor other than a Haramaki? One of the defining aspects of the class is that they get [I[nothing[/I] from armors. If you ever see a Kensai in Celestial Mail, something has gone drastically wrong somewhere.
Two-handing is something you do for fights that you don't actually care about. It was never a real "advantage". Sure, it was a reason to use the scimitar over the rapier, pre-ACG, because occasionally that might come up. But touting is as the advantage of the Magus is... yeah, no.
The real advantage of Str-based is two-three saved feats, and better defenses if the game is starting at mid-to-high levels (or they can somehow survive to those levels).
I'd go Str-based in a feat-starved build, a build where I have other access to AC boosts, or a build where I'm starting at 7+.
*Shrug* Doing that now actually. Level 4 Kensai, Str-based, 26 AC, crazy feat starved until level 17. But that's not a typical game.
Cap. Darling wrote: deuxhero wrote: Spells are the most powerful thing in the game. Kensai gets fewer spells. this is like saying that the exploiter wizard is less powerfull than a sin wizard diviner.
You Can take what is generally true and use it to look at specific things and therebye draw wrong conclusions. I'm thinking about this, but, basically, the kensai is 1 spell level behind, right? So, what if you just took normal magus, but first level you instead go inspired swash. Same amount of spells, 2 extra feats instead of 1, can still wear armor, can still use spell recall...
Kensai would still be better if you want an exotic weapon (whip, curve blade or something), I guess.
Kensai still has a ton of advantages over Inspired Blade. In fact they're just... not really comparable. They do totally different things.
Also, -1 caster level hurts.
I just rolled up a Swashbuckler[Inspired blade] 1/ Magus[Hexcrafter] 8 for our RotRL game (my alchemists got crushed) and played him last week. His spellcombat/spellstrike is +18/18/13 1d4+11+1d6+8 plus fatigue and entangled with 15-20 x2. This Halfling averaged 111 per round.
I took flight hex.
What I'm looking at now is most likely keeping my Kensai as is. His defenses fully buffed come in at Touch AC 29 & normal AC 38 at level 12/1 Kensai/Inspired B. That's all with only the weight of Silken Ceremonial armor on.
One problem I'm going to have for sure is running into resistance/immunity for my Shocking Grasp offense. I'm looking for ways to get around this without dipping 1 level into Admixture Wizard.
What I've thought of so far is to dump a feat and add Elemental Spell metamagic to my Intensified-Empowered (with 2 trait shenanigans) to give me roughly 15d6 Electric/Acid Shocking Grasps.
So if I run into a Daemon, Devil, Demon, Demodand or Undead they'll at least take roughly 1/2 damage of that spell.
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LoneKnave wrote: Cap. Darling wrote: deuxhero wrote: Spells are the most powerful thing in the game. Kensai gets fewer spells. this is like saying that the exploiter wizard is less powerfull than a sin wizard diviner.
You Can take what is generally true and use it to look at specific things and therebye draw wrong conclusions. I'm thinking about this, but, basically, the kensai is 1 spell level behind, right? So, what if you just took normal magus, but first level you instead go inspired swash. Same amount of spells, 2 extra feats instead of 1, can still wear armor, can still use spell recall...
Kensai would still be better if you want an exotic weapon (whip, curve blade or something), I guess. Kensai is not a spell level behind. They have one less pr level. That is not the same.
It basically works out the same.
No wait, it works out worse for the kensai. He still gets access to spells 1 level early I guess.
Does anyone have some thoughts on Researching Spells and making your own? I thought about just taking a regular Magus spell I know and changing its damage type or spell resistance or saving throw types. Like making Shocking Grasp or Snowball a Flaming Grasp or Acid Ball.
I've also thought about using those research your own spell rules to pilfer an arcane spell from another arcane class like Witch/Wizard. Maybe a Cure spell with a limitation it only works on you or something along those lines. I'd rather burn gold on it than waste an Arcana to grab a Wizard spell.
Any thoughts on what you would do in this situation?
Eigengrau wrote: Does anyone have some thoughts on Researching Spells and making your own? I thought about just taking a regular Magus spell I know and changing its damage type or spell resistance or saving throw types. Like making Shocking Grasp or Snowball a Flaming Grasp or Acid Ball.
I've also thought about using those research your own spell rules to pilfer an arcane spell from another arcane class like Witch/Wizard. Maybe a Cure spell with a limitation it only works on you or something along those lines. I'd rather burn gold on it than waste an Arcana to grab a Wizard spell.
Any thoughts on what you would do in this situation?
Different GMs will look on that one differently. I know I'd assumed it wasn't an option until my GM blinked, looked at me, and said "why don't you just use a different element version of Shocking Grasp?"
Looting spells from another list is... questionable. I'd work with your GM to come up with something, because it's going to vary pretty wildly. Keep in mind, though, that Spell Blending is a thing that works fine for nabbing Sorc/Wizard spells.
Yeah but I feel kinda feat & arcana starved as it is though... Spell Blending is a great option but I can't decide on what to get rid of to get it.
Personally, the last time I built a pure Magus I didn't even look at Spell Blending until level eleven. Then I ganked two level three spells (Spell Blending & Permanency) and took it two or three more times at the high levels.
Kestral, in your opinion would it be wise to give up the Arcane Deed for the Swashbuckler's Subtle Blade deed to free up a feat/arcana to grab maybe Spell Blending or another feat? I haven't ever been subject to a Sunder/Disarm/Steal attempt in 13 levels so far but the minute I am, and fail, I'd be totally hosed.
I'd say yes, conditionally, but what spells are you looking at? While Subtle Blade is decent, it's really not necessary. Your arsenal should include at least a few support/control style spells, so if need be you can fall back for the duration of the fight and play support, kill whoever disarmed/stole your weapon, then take it back (or have the Wizard repair your weapon for a Sunder).
Really it depends on the spells you're looking at though, but probably.
I was looking at possibly taking Calcific Touch and use it in conjunction with my Arcane Deed: Bleeding Wound. Honestly I really wouldn't have to use it with the Arcane Deed but it'd help drop that guy quicker by a round or two.
Calcific Touch is... kind of an 'eh' in my book. It's going to take a while to bring a target down-- you're doing, on average, 3.5 Dex damage/round at the cost of a fourth-level spell and two arcane pool points per round.
It /could/ work, if you're fighting lots of dragons or some such, but it's kind of a situational thing I think.
I think I've finally made up my mind and decided against Spell Blending for now. Also I'm giving up taking the Arcane Deed: Subtle Blade and taking the Close Range Arcana instead.
I'll switch my focus on Shocking Grasp to Snowball and also use my new feat of Elemental Magic to make it a Intensified Empowered Elemental Acid/Snow-ball. This will allow me to still use it in a 1st level slot and make effectively a 15d6 no save/no Spell Resist attack (save for Staggered though) that I'll be able to use in Spellstrike combat or also be able to be used at ranged if needed. Against creatures immune to cold, they'll still take 1/2 from the acid. I'll also be able to use some 2nd level slots for Intensified Shocking Grasps.
Snowball doesn't work with Close Range; it's not a Ray.
D$#% IT!
Well sticking to Shocking Grasp shenanigans then.
Any thoughts on what spells to pilfer for spell blending then?
Heroism and Greater Stunning Barrier were my immediate picks, though certainly not the only ones. At higher levels, I'd snag Icy Prison and Constricting Coils so you can effectively target all saves.
You could throw them snowballs with card caster.
Also, about card caster:
Quote: Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the card caster randomly draws and throws a harrow card matching one axis of his alignment, the card's critical threat range increases to 19–20. If the card caster draws and throws a harrow card matching his alignment exactly, the attack's critical multiplier also increases to x3 and the magus gains a +4 bonus on his confirmation roll.
This ability replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.
Could he just make a deck (or, I guess, a quarter deck) full of cards that match his own suite perfectly? The harrow deck doesn't have to be completely balanced (if it had to be, he couldn't use this ability after throwing a single card).
Card Caster can't Spell Combat with his cards though so... not a great archetype.
LoneKnave wrote: You could throw them snowballs with card caster.
Also, about card caster:
Quote: Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the card caster randomly draws and throws a harrow card matching one axis of his alignment, the card's critical threat range increases to 19–20. If the card caster draws and throws a harrow card matching his alignment exactly, the attack's critical multiplier also increases to x3 and the magus gains a +4 bonus on his confirmation roll.
This ability replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.
Could he just make a deck (or, I guess, a quarter deck) full of cards that match his own suite perfectly? The harrow deck doesn't have to be completely balanced (if it had to be, he couldn't use this ability after throwing a single card).
A harrow deck only containing cards of your own alignment would be merely 6 cards, one card of each suit.
I need to look up what a harrow deck actually is. Anyway, that sounds fine, just make a bunch of those for the important fights.
kestral287 wrote: Card Caster can't Spell Combat with his cards though so... not a great archetype. You spell combat with a normal weapon and then deliver the spellstrike with a card.
He can use the cards as melee weapons if he has rough and ready and a suitable profession as well.
I'm rocking the Boots of the Battle Herald that give me 30 rounds of Greater Heroism per day though. They're awesome.
Greater Stunning Barrier isn't too bad but with all the Displacement & Mirror Images I cast along with constant parries, I don't think it'd be used to its greatest extent. Nor would I want to be hit either just to get it to go off.
Icy Prison doesn't scream out to me though. I can see taking Constricting Coils later down the road for sure.
I'm sitting here trying to think of a "Combo"/"Finishing Move" style of spell combat over a few rounds with a potential BBEG type of foe. Between the BBEG either having Immunity/Resists/Ferocity/Temp HPs/Rage/Dmg.Reduction our fights can last upwards of 6 rounds or more on them.
Excruciating Deformation & Calcific Touch along with a Dex & Con bleed from my Swashbuckling attacks would end things quickly, as long as my opponents weren't immune to such things anyway. What I like about Calcific Touch is the fact that it still allows me to cast more touch spells each round and still have it's effect going. So on my first round I could cast Calcific Touch for 1d4 dex dmg and spend 2 panache points to cause a Dex bleed on that attack, and another 2 pan.points to do a Con bleed on the free spellstrike attack, on the 2nd round I cast Excruciating Deform. and it does another 1pt of Dex & Con dmg, along with a 1d4 Dex dmg from Calcific touch and further 1 pt each of Dex & Con bleed. Of course I've spent 4 panache points up already though and 2 spells. But in those 2 rounds leading up to my 3rd round, I've done 2d4 Dex dmg, 1 pt each of Dex & Con dmg from E.D., and 2 pts each of Dex & Con bleed and still have several more rounds worth of effects from both spells cast, one of which I could continue to use on another target.
Of course it's entirely possible to have either already killed the BBEG from the hit point damage already, even more so if the rest of the party participated in it. And that's a lot of uses of spells/pool points and an arcana to pull off and situational at best.
While typing this all out I've discovered something I never knew about before. The feat called Maximized Spellstrike. As long as I grab Quickdraw and have the Maximize spell Arcana I can spend 3 Arcane points on Maximizing any spell I successfully used through Spellstrike. This could be worth looking into possibly.
LoneKnave wrote: I need to look up what a harrow deck actually is. Anyway, that sounds fine, just make a bunch of those for the important fights.
kestral287 wrote: Card Caster can't Spell Combat with his cards though so... not a great archetype. You spell combat with a normal weapon and then deliver the spellstrike with a card.
He can use the cards as melee weapons if he has rough and ready and a suitable profession as well.
Card Caster is out, it would screw with my Arcane Pool to only be used on Ranged Weapons.
I'm more the ultimate swordsman type by any means necessary to win. Be it spells cast through my weapon or swashbuckling shenanigans it doesn't matter to me.
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