Hi all. Sneaking up on an idea for a character and need some help. Basically I need to know what is generally the best combat maneuver? Trip, grapple, other? If it depends then what are the main factors that to consider? For my part I'm expecting the character to be a full caster so defending against say grapple to stop my casting may tip the balance a bit.
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If there will be lots of humanoids then trip is really good.
If you don't know what you're up against then grapple, as it can be done to most things.
bull rush can be nice sometimes
Dirty Trick can be done against anything pretty easily.
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Dirty trick is the only maneuver worth speccing in. The rest fall off once you go mid levels and enemies stop being humanoid/medium/not flying.
A caster doesn't work particularly different when he's tripped.
Now, if you were grappled, that would hurt.
While immunity to trip may come online at 5 level (when the wizard can cast fly), Freedom of Movement comes later, so it remains a problem for a lot more.
Unless your opponent is a Tetori in melee range. In that case, nothing is going to stop him.
Rarely, it could happen that someone steals/sunders your casting gear. Bring some more items (divine focus, spell component pouch, and whatever), or circumvent that with feats.
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Dirty Trick is among the most versatile feats in the game - it is also one of the ones most subject to table variation (if you are playing in organized play like PFS). If not, you should talk with your GM about what he will/won't allow you to do with Dirty Tricks.
A few of the notable questions:
- can you Dirty Trick with weapons? (RAW is somewhat unclear - implication in many places is yes - I think of this like using a blade to blind an enemy vs deal damage, or to cut clothing/armor in a way that entangles etc)
- do you need to know something about the monster to dirty trick effectively? (RAW there is no such requirement - but as a player and GM I think that if I've say been successful in using Knowledge to identify the monster at the very least as a player I may have a better clue as to what types of conditions to impose
A notable items/feats/suggestions:
- Dirty Trick (Blind) works exceptionally well if you then can make followup attacks with sneak attack (or another form of precision damage) Blind is also amazing against many casters (hard to aim if you can't see your enemies)
- When you can Dirty Trick Master is amazing (and perhaps broken - if you impose Nauseated it is basically game over for that enemy - by then your dirty trick's take a standard action to be removed - and nauseated means you only have move actions = total lockdown basically. Even before then once you have Greater Dirty Trick you can really gain a major action economy advantage - even at very high level play (where quicken spells etc may come into play) you remove most of a caster's effectiveness via forcing them to spend a standard action to remove effects and you even before then you remove a full melee type's ability to make full attacks if they have to spend a move action to remove an effect first (and when it is a standard action you seriously cripple melee types as well)
- look for ways to impose multiple dirty tricks in a round (there is one class that lets you forgo sneak attack damage to instead do a dirty trick as a free action - start stacking that and you can impose a lot of effects all at once - each requiring standard actions to remove...
- look at magic items (there are some) which will help your dirty tricks - the Burglar's Buckler is quite amazing - as a +1 buckler even someone w/o shield proficiencies can use it without penalties and it grants a +2 competance on disable device & slight of hand, to combat maneuver checks to impose Dirty Tricks and to CMD against Dirty Tricks. Plus once per day on command it can turn into any mundane tool weighing between 1 and 5 pounds - with the implication that it can remain in that form indefinitely (so very easily concealed until you need it) plus very flexible.
- if you focus on unarmed attacks to impose your dirty tricks check with your GM but likely Brawling Armor would help you as your attacks are unarmed attacks (the description is a bit unclear in intention - it calls out that it includes combat maneuvers to impose grapple but generally most bonuses to attacks with a weapon apply if you attack to impose a combat maneuver with that weapon instead of a traditional attack. In any case brawling armor is really really good for sneaky types who may often attack unarmed (it is a +1 armor enchantment that grants a +2 to unarmed attacks and damage and makes those attacks count as magic weapons - though you still need Improved Unarmed Strike to avoid attacks of opportunity etc)
The key however to a Dirty Trick build (at least until you have Dirty Trick Master) is to coordinate carefully with your party - you are basically a non-magical debuffer - once you impose effects you need your party (and perhaps yourself) to be able to follow up on those effects and make the best use of them. For example if you blind an opponent they usually can't then make AoO - so it is a great tactic to help party members escape (or help them maneuver around an enemy to get into flanks)
You'll also want to have a lot of other tricks up your sleeves if you play a Dirty Trick focused character - my PFS dirty trick focused character has nearly every skill in the game as a class skill, carries a wide array of potions, scrolls and wands for every occasion (using UMD) and has things like a Cloak of the Hedge Wizard (divination) which gives him a once per day ability to cast True Stike among other abilities (for when he really really needs to land that combat maneuver). His typical tactic is to close very rapidly with the enemy and then start locking the BBEG down and then wait for his party to also close (and sneak attack w/two weapon fighting until then)
I love the Dirty Trick maneuvers, too. We don't tend to see a lot of dirty trick builds in PFS because you can't control who your GM is a lot of times, and whether/how a dirty trick works is completely up to the GM.
I think grappling is one of the most effective debuffs in the game, right up there with Slow. A grappled character
- Can't move
- Can't take AoOs
- Can't do anything that requires 2 hands
- Takes a -2 to all attack rolls (except breaking the grapple itself)
- Takes a -4 penalty to Dex
- Needs to make a concentration check to cast any spell (DC = 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level)
Too many grapple builds focus on "how do I take this guy out?" My tetori's philosophy is "I'll hold this guy down while you take him out."
Grappling is especially effective against tiny creatures. Tiny creatures get a size bonus to their AC, but they take a size penalty to their CMB and CMD. They also use their dexterity to attack, so that -2 attack roll penalty stacks with the -4 dexterity penalty and nets them -4 to their attack rolls.
Honestly, if you want to do a maneuver build, consider a Brawler. Once you have Improved Unarmed Strike (free), Combat Expertise, and Power Attack, you can learn just about any combat maneuver feat as a move action.
Is this guy walking on two legs? Learn Improved Trip.
Got a scary looking weapon? Move action to get Improved Disarm, standard action to take it away.
etc.
You can easily focus on Dirty Trick or Grapple as your "go to" debuff and still have all the other options at your disposal, whenever you need them.
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GRAPPLE, BECAUSE WHATCHU GONNA DO, BROTHER, WHEN BROTHER HOLGAN HOLYWOOD OF THE ORDER OF THE NEW WORLD GETS THE TWENTY-FOUR INCH PYTHONS ON YOUUUUUUUUUUU, BROTHER?!
if you take the brawler route it may be worth investing in a few of the base feats for Dirty Tricks and Grapple so you can use martial flexibility to get the more advanced feats (greater dirty trick etc) when you qualify - martial flexibility is indeed really really potent - just be sure to prepare your usual swaps in/out or be ready to do a lot of math at the table. I love the concept of the Brawler but I also fear that it has potential to really slow down play both from the sheer flexibility that it offers a martial player - and the complexity it introduces for players and GM's.
Indeed Dirty Tricks in PFS play is far more subject to table variation than perhaps it should be - but there are few enemies that can't logically be effected by at least one or two of the potential tricks (blinded works against nearly everything and is very effective, entangled is also pretty generally useful). As a player I am just always prepared with my stats with and without my character's main weapon (his rapier) - since he has some monk levels, he's pretty solid with just using his unarmed attacks to impose dirty tricks.
But indeed Grapple is really really good as well - though at higher levels you will need a way to get larger (or some other way to effect larger creatures - and while grappling is very good against flying creatures you first have to get up to them - and have a way not to worry about falling yourself....
Trip, dirty trick, and grapple.
Tho trip can be countered it can be done in place of an attack or part of a flurry. Trip is the faster combat maneuver. Flying things need to be in the air to counter you. If you get ahold of him before he fly's or bring him to earth then its not too bad.
The other 2 have more potential in the long run.
Rycaut wrote: But indeed Grapple is really really good as well - though at higher levels you will need a way to get larger (or some other way to effect larger creatures - and while grappling is very good against flying creatures you first have to get up to them - and have a way not to worry about falling yourself.... Actually, grapple is not size restricted at all. You don't even take additional penalties for grappling a larger creature...which is why my halfling tetori successfully grappled a gargantuan ooze-like-creature (we never actually identified it) in {Redacted} scenario. It was...somewhat epic.
A lot of people get confused because the grab ability (for monsters and 8th level tetori monks) is usually size restricted, but that's a completely different ability.
Logically, grapple probably should be size restricted while trip should not (for example, I find it much easier to trip over a cat than a horse), but by RAW, that's not the case.
But flying will definitely help.
I think that the point here is "What's the best maneuver to DEFEND AGAINST?"
For a full caster, you probably shouldn't be worried about being tripped, as you're still 95% effective. The only time it REALLY matters is when the attacker is using the trip as a vehicle for AoOs (Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp come to mind). The other worry about trip is being forced to cast defensively (as the tripper is likely to make his AoO at +4 to hit), or eating an AoO to stand up, then finding out if the attacker has combat reflexes (To AoO you when you cast while threatened).
Grapple is another nasty maneuver, as being a full caster, you likely have a low CMD, and therefore will be more susceptible. Also, if you don't avoid/escape the grapple, even more bad/worse things will happen (pinned, tied up, swallowed whole, etc.) A decent defense against grapple is to be a Cleric with the Liberation domain. Also, having a wand of grease is great. You may have to UMD the wand, and it may be too much time required to draw the wand, cast the spell, and THEN make your escape attempt.... Another VERY nice defense for anyone with a half-decent Wisdom is to take the trait Wisdom in the Flesh and choose Escape Artist. The skill now uses your Wisdom modifier (so no penalty to the skill while grappled) and is automatically a class skill. This gives you a bonus at least on par with a martial character.
The Dirty Trick maneuver is most likely the nastiest one. Getting Nauseated is pretty much a death knell. Blinded can be dealt with somewhat (Blind Fight feat, wear goggles, etc.), but dealing with nausea is very difficult. The only way I know of to avoid the Nauseated condition is the Internal Fortitude Barbarian Rage Power (lv.8 Barbarian). The best way to deal with the Dirty Trick maneuver is to avoid it altogether. Of course, the same may be said of all maneuvers...If you're flying, invisible, incorporeal, or otherwise unable to be targeted, you're good. Things that offer miss chance (blur, displacement, blink, mirror image) are also VERY good defenses against combat maneuvers.
The best Combat Maneuver is generally Cast a Spell At It.
The second best is Hit It 'Til It's Dead.
The THIRD best is probably Dirty Trick. Dirty Trick can really screw up your opponents.
If, say, you're a Rogue, then specializing in either Dirty Trick or Feint is great, because both Maneuvers make your opponents Flat Footed.
Feint is more likely to succeed when attempted because it's your Bluff check vs their Sense Motve, which not everyone is going to have maxed out, and will be lower than the monster's CMD. However, Feint takes a -4 penalties vs non-Humanoids (meaning Dragons, Monstrous Humanoids, etc.), and a -8 vs Int 1 or 2 Animals. Constructs and other creatures without Intelligence scores are simply immune.
Dirty Trick is more reliable, in a ways, but much more open to DM Fiat. Because you have to explain how you're performing a Dirty Trick, you have to find a way to get the effect you're trying to pull off.
Blinded, for instance, is fantastic, because your opponent is denied their Dexterity Bonus. However, against things without eyes...
Then again, most things without eyes are probably things you can't Sneak Attack anyway, so there's that.
I dont think its worth it to specialize in dirty trick as rogue, because of medium bab. You need a full bab class or psudeo full bab for combat maneuvers (battle oracle/monk) for combat maneuvers as the monsters cmb and cmd goes up mighty fast.
Not sure what you mean by "goggles" will prevent Blinded - nothing in the equipment that I see would prevent someone with Dirty Trick blinding someone wearing goggles (non-magical certainly and even magical unless there is a magical one I'm unfamiliar with that does offer that protection) - indeed as a player facing someone wearing goggles I'd probably explain my blinding as possibly using those very goggles against my foe. I think of Dirty Tricks as doing things that don't deal damage but do interfere with the enemy - twisting up their belongings, drawing enough blood to get into their eyes, clapping down on their ears enough to cause them to ring, punching/hiting/poking somewhere that doesn't deal real damage but does cause discomfort etc.
For me one of the other not often discussed advantages for Dirty Tricks is that they actually work really well for a character who wants to take things down quickly and potentially non-lethally - they are very effective as a prelude to killing something but they can also be a strong case for surrendor or work well with feats to do non-lethal damage. Grapple builds can also be built to focus on non-lethal takedowns quite effectively as well
Just a Mort wrote: I dont think its worth it to specialize in dirty trick as rogue, because of medium bab. You need a full bab class or psudeo full bab for combat maneuvers (battle oracle/monk) for combat maneuvers as the monsters cmb and cmd goes up mighty fast. Yeah, that's the other side to it.
Feint vs Sense Motive is a lot more 1:1 than CMB @ 3/4 BAB vs CMD.
This is especially important when even MARTIALS start having problems hitting CMDs at higher levels.
The major issue I've seen with Combat Maneuvers in general is that it starts becoming nigh-impossible even WITH Full BAB to hit monsters that are big enough/have a high enough CR.
Sure, your lv16 Barbarian could probably hit the CMD of a lv18 Necromancer, but the CMD of a Wyrm Red Dragon? Proooobably not.
Oddly enough, CMDs become much, much harder to beat as the game goes on, unlike ACs, which become a non-issue to beat with your highest BAB starting in mid-levels (unless the enemy is an absolute monstrosity).
I made a new character for a game that is a reach fighter specializing in trip and dirty tricks. Trip is one of the best combat maneuvers because of the action economy: Substituting an attack means you can use AoOs to prevent enemy movement via knocking their butts prone. Dirty trick is just a BEAST, because with the right combos you can turn them into save or sucks pretty quickly. For example, a character with Dirty Trick Master and a single level (maybe even 2 levels) in Maneuver Master monk can potentially daze or nauseate an opponent in a single turn, with no means by which the effect can be removed other than waiting out the duration (which can be increased as necessary with further dirty tricks). This means that you've taken one guy and completely locked him out of the fight, which is the kind of crap typically reserved for spellcasters, and you can do it all day (much like some kind of martial Witch).
Rycaut wrote: - When you can Dirty Trick Master is amazing (and perhaps broken - if you impose Nauseated it is basically game over for that enemy - by then your dirty trick's take a standard action to be removed - and nauseated means you only have move actions = total lockdown basically. Even before then once you have Greater Dirty Trick you can really gain a major action economy advantage - even at very high level play (where quicken spells etc may come into play) you remove most of a caster's effectiveness via forcing them to spend a standard action to remove effects and you even before then you remove a full melee type's ability to make full attacks if they have to spend a move action to remove an effect first (and when it is a standard action you seriously cripple melee types as well) It can mean that you can continually lock down enemies' standard actions for fear of getting nauseated.
Basically, if they let you sicken them, and they try to do anything other than remove that condition, then they are leaving themselves completely vulnerable.
Better to get into a silly game of tag where they constantly remove the condition and you constantly apply it than for them to lose the same standard actions, but leave you to do whatever you want.
Really, it could practically be compared to a grapple build where you lock down two character
But yeah...dirty trick makes me drool over the new eldritch guardian archetype for fighters. Having a familiar with all your combat feats (as well as medium sized and a decent strength score through mauler for a good CMB) lets you just double team enemies until they are broken. With dirty trick master, you could nauseate an enemy every round.
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No Bounty Hunter Slayers?
It's like you don't even want to blind your enemy with your first dirty trick and then follow up with all the rest of your attacks also carrying dirty tricks instead of piddly SA damage. At way higher bonus any fighter can get, I might add.
@ Rycaut
While a standard pair of googles may not be listed in any equipment guide as preventing the blinded condition, I doubt that it's an unreasonable assumption that a character could have them work as such. As to how they prevent blindness, it's fairly simple: the enemy has to be more creative in how they use the Dirty Trick maneuver. For instance, the time-honored fistful-of-sand-in-the-eyes would not pose much threat. Many of the effects that you describe as the basis for Dirty Tricks would absolutely cause HP damage, lethal or otherwise. Drawing enough blood to obscure their vision especially sounds like lethal damage with the bleed effect to me...
Also, I'm not saying it's 100% fool proof. Just that it CAN (not DOES) help somewhat. That is HELP, not NEGATE.
The thing with Dirty Trick maneuvers is that they are so incredibly open to interpretation, with a vast array of status effects. This is both a blessing and a curse, as it allows for more creativity, and such creativity is WELL rewarded. OTOH, many of the Dirty Tricks fall under previously established rules. "No,I don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, but when I kick a guy in the balls I don't provoke...." I'm just not buying it. Of course, the rules seem to support it, but it just seems counter-intuitive to me.
I guess it just boils down to the fact that the Dirty Trick maneuver is "any sort of situational attack that imposes a penalty on a foe for a short period of time." Sometimes the situation is well set up to allow these maneuvers, other times it's not. I know that it's kind of a cop-out to fall back on the "GM's discretion" line, but Dirty Tricks truly are situations where it's totally applicable.
All that being said, Dirty Trick is a fantastic maneuver, with exceptional power and versatility, and I totally agree with your advice on the subject.
Holgan Holywood wrote: GRAPPLE, BECAUSE WHATCHU GONNA DO, BROTHER, WHEN BROTHER HOLGAN HOLYWOOD OF THE ORDER OF THE NEW WORLD GETS THE TWENTY-FOUR INCH PYTHONS ON YOUUUUUUUUUUU, BROTHER?! PREACH ON BROTHER HOLGAN, (as a Huge Eidolon sporting a belt of the Anaconda looks downward).
JUST LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU WANT A SHOT AT THE GOLARION WRESTLING FEDERATION TITLE! CAUSE ITS MINE BABY ALL MINE!
IDK, dirty trick with goggles sounds like you pull a 3 Stooges and grab their Goggles, pull them back and snap them back into their face to mess with their vision.
So the best (as in most broadly useful) maneuvers are, in order, dirty trick, sunder (PFS), grapple, trip, everything but sunder, sunder (home game). Dirty trick has a bunch of versatility and lets you pick and choose the condition you want, and in theory nobody becomes immune. Sunder is great in PFS because it's loaded with humanoid enemies and there's no penalty for destroying all their stuff (and the average spellcaster has no backup spell component pouches or holy symbols, hell, some don't even have them in the first place). Grapple is a good single-target lockdown (until freedom of movement comes around, Tetori beats this but it's the only thing that does). Trip can be done in place of an attack and on AoO giving you great control with it, legs and flying make it a sucker's game eventually. Everything else is situationally useful except sunder when you do keep the enemy's loot, then it's a terrible plan.
And the barbarian is the only one who can always keep up versus CMD. At level 16 they have 16 (BAB) + 16 (Strength Surge) + 3 Rage + X Strength + 2/4 feat + Y weapon? + Z Item. So that's 37/39 + X (probably 7-10) + Y (6 if applicable) + Z (headband of havoc for +4 on Strength Surge). So that's minimum +44, more likely +50, versus the CR 20 Wyrm Red Dragon's 54. I'll take those odds.
Dirty Trick has the broadest applications, but is the most reliant on RP - you have to explain how you're going to do something, and the DM is going to have to accept how your Dirty Trick works and what the results are.
Every other Maneuver has clearly defined "This is what you do, this is what happens" rules.
Also, remember that while Feint isn't an official Combat Maneuver, it's pretty darn close.
AND, on the Subject of not-Maneuvers, Intimidate really trumps them all.
The ability to demoralize enemies and, with Antagonize, control the flow of Combat exactly as you want it to go, makes Intimidate easily the most useful special maneuver you could make in Combat.
Trip is handy. Dirty trick takes a lot of investment to make valuable, and then there's the grey area that comes with it: will your dm allow you to dirty trick a wolf? A dinosaur? A dragon?
Grapple, however, is also feat intensive, and has its own limitations. IT's deadly when you take the whole chain, and yet it may or may not jive with other character concepts (are you a two handed damage dealer? If so, why are you grappling? You're too close to the enmy to be able to us your weapon if you need to for some reason... Do you have uncanny dodge? Otherwise, you'll lose your dex to ac against other attackers when trying to wrestle that guy/critter to the ground.
If you are a big two hander, sunder's nice. Magus? Sunder as well, and as recent posts point to, you can repair the weapons you broke with some cheap spells if you're a magus, or there's a wizard in the party (level 0 spell, mending). Still, not all enemies carry weapons.
REcently, I've noted how effective the Overrun maneuver can be with STR based meleers. With three feats, you can create a very mobile, smash & trample build. Only really works well with targets that are your size or smaller, but particularly Barbarians that invest in Overrunning can become pretty deadly:
Consider this example. level 6 barbarian, improved overrun, greater overrun, charge through, combat reflexes. (20 pt buy) Str 16, dex 16, con 14 (+ whatever other stats)
A group of thugs is threatening you for (insert reason here). A charge maneuver requires you move at least 10'. Whether you win the initiative roll or not, you declare a charge on any one of the thugs (thug A), that's adjacent to another one (thug b). You run *through*
thug b with overrun, declaring a square adjacent to thug A as your final destination.
Now your overrun CMB is gonna be like 13 to 15 (depending on rage, other bonuses, etc, maybe even higher) -- You make a free overrun attempt on thug B (with the charge through feat) who's gonna probably have a comparatively weaker cmd without also having the same feats you do. He cannot choose to sidestep. If you beat his CMD by 5, you not only move through him, he gets knocked prone. Greater Overrun allows you an Attack of opportunity when you knock someone over on an overrun. Now you finish the charge on thug A, and you are either moving through him with a second overrun check on the charge, or an attack (depending on the path of your charge, as its gotta be a straight line) either way, if you knock him down too or are adjacent to thug B, you get your AoO's on everyone trying to stand up (and potentially the second AoO if you also knocked thug A over with overrun). Level 6 barb, doing 3 to five attacks of opportunty every round, for ~15 to 25 damage a pop, on prone targets? Not bad.
You will get AoO'd when you move through threatened squares, So thugs C and D may take shots on you. But thankfully barbs have a lot of hp and damage resistance. If you go this route, consider taking either Mobility or wearing some Adamantine armor. Very handy for the Heavy armor barb types/fighter classes. Barbs have some good rage abilites for overrun builds, including one that allows you to make any number of overruns in one round (blast through lines of enemies, taking pops as many times as you can. If some mage casts say, ghostly visage on you, you're ignoring any damage *you* take from moving through threatened areas).
Basically, each and every combat maneuver depends on what your strategy is. Are you trying to keep enemies on their backs, but you don't care how much damage you do? Using a reach weapon strategy? Trips are great for this. Using whips? Trips or grapples are handy. Like to be up close and personal, sneak attacking folks to their face? take grapple, a knife, and Quick Draw. After you pin, you can sneak attack them until they break your pin. All the maneuvers have value, it just depends on what you want to accomplish to make your build work.
If you're going for a full caster, you're going to have to contend with the fact that your BAB will be sucky, and that it's going to be hard to really excel at maneuvers the way a fighter or a medium BAB class with maneuver bonuses can (like monks or maguses with maneuver mastery). If I were you, and was planning on a full caster type, I'd avoid taking maneuvers unless you're a cleric/oracle/druid (the last one, can be really good if you wildshape into say, a wolf, and take trip feats, or into a big snake and take grapples), and even then I'd only do it if I was playing a certain type (stone oracle, for example, has a lot of Trip synergy. Combat reflexes, Trip, and a reach weapon. As the enemies collect around you, shard explosion, stone call spells, etc. If there are just too many to keep at bay, step into a wall.)
Anyway hope that's enough examples to give you an idea or two.
Wow you guys have offered a lot and I have much to consider. I can say that im very confident on having a magnificently high CMB so im not worried about that. I love the idea of going dirty trick mastery to lock down my foes as a few of you have said but sadly that BAB+11 is a killer.
Prior to this posting and your responses I was heavily leaning to trip but you guys have convinced me to reconsider this. trip seems to be a bit situational unless you have a solid "backup" like a reach build that is viable on its own merits.
I shall reread some of this material you guys have put in here and study some more. plz keep it coming.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: Wow you guys have offered a lot and I have much to consider. I can say that im very confident on having a magnificently high CMB so im not worried about that. I love the idea of going dirty trick mastery to lock down my foes as a few of you have said but sadly that BAB+11 is a killer.
Prior to this posting and your responses I was heavily leaning to trip but you guys have convinced me to reconsider this. trip seems to be a bit situational unless you have a solid "backup" like a reach build that is viable on its own merits.
I shall reread some of this material you guys have put in here and study some more. plz keep it coming.
Good thing with full caster is you can take extend spell/true strike. Really good for making aggressive maneuvers like overrun/trip/dirty trick viable. But it won't help your CMD, so grappling is kind of out, as they'll just break every hold you put on in their own turn.
What kind of caster you working with?
To be honest if you want to do combat maneuvers, you should do it with a full bab class with lots of feats.
Lorewarden comes into mind....
Though druid is nice when dealing with size limitations on some combat maneuvers, ie trip.
Aemesh wrote: Renegadeshepherd wrote: Wow you guys have offered a lot and I have much to consider. I can say that im very confident on having a magnificently high CMB so im not worried about that. I love the idea of going dirty trick mastery to lock down my foes as a few of you have said but sadly that BAB+11 is a killer.
Prior to this posting and your responses I was heavily leaning to trip but you guys have convinced me to reconsider this. trip seems to be a bit situational unless you have a solid "backup" like a reach build that is viable on its own merits.
I shall reread some of this material you guys have put in here and study some more. plz keep it coming.
Good thing with full caster is you can take extend spell/true strike. Really good for making aggressive maneuvers like overrun/trip/dirty trick viable. But it won't help your CMD, so grappling is kind of out, as they'll just break every hold you put on in their own turn.
What kind of caster you working with? Fan-fuggin'-TASTIC thing with Bloodrager is it get True Strike as a spell starting at 4th level and basically gets all the perks of a Barbarian.
Go Bloodrager, and name yourself Zhu-Li, because you're going to be doing ALL the things.
Aemesh wrote: Renegadeshepherd wrote: Wow you guys have offered a lot and I have much to consider. I can say that im very confident on having a magnificently high CMB so im not worried about that. I love the idea of going dirty trick mastery to lock down my foes as a few of you have said but sadly that BAB+11 is a killer.
Prior to this posting and your responses I was heavily leaning to trip but you guys have convinced me to reconsider this. trip seems to be a bit situational unless you have a solid "backup" like a reach build that is viable on its own merits.
I shall reread some of this material you guys have put in here and study some more. plz keep it coming.
Good thing with full caster is you can take extend spell/true strike. Really good for making aggressive maneuvers like overrun/trip/dirty trick viable. But it won't help your CMD, so grappling is kind of out, as they'll just break every hold you put on in their own turn.
What kind of caster you working with? I shouldn't post it since its a work in progress but since you asked... My current incarnation is a half elven lorekeeper oracle of the battle mystery. Using the favored class bonus of the elves to increase maneuver master revelation. not only would I get the extra feats earlier but would also increase the CMB to beyond even full BAB levels. at level 20 without anything else you would have better than +34. that's with no strength mod, no roll, or some such.
Then I intend to search up and down the wizard/sorcerer and cleric/oracle lists to find the best spells for control. Mirror images would certainly keep me safer while grappling or debuffing one target. Anyone who has a spell to offer in the aid of any combat maneuver ill certainly take it.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: Aemesh wrote: Renegadeshepherd wrote: Wow you guys have offered a lot and I have much to consider. I can say that im very confident on having a magnificently high CMB so im not worried about that. I love the idea of going dirty trick mastery to lock down my foes as a few of you have said but sadly that BAB+11 is a killer.
Prior to this posting and your responses I was heavily leaning to trip but you guys have convinced me to reconsider this. trip seems to be a bit situational unless you have a solid "backup" like a reach build that is viable on its own merits.
I shall reread some of this material you guys have put in here and study some more. plz keep it coming.
Good thing with full caster is you can take extend spell/true strike. Really good for making aggressive maneuvers like overrun/trip/dirty trick viable. But it won't help your CMD, so grappling is kind of out, as they'll just break every hold you put on in their own turn.
What kind of caster you working with? I shouldn't post it since its a work in progress but since you asked... My current incarnation is a half elven lorekeeper oracle of the battle mystery. Using the favored class bonus of the elves to increase maneuver master revelation. not only would I get the extra feats earlier but would also increase the CMB to beyond even full BAB levels. at level 20 without anything else you would have better than +34. that's with no strength mod, no roll, or some such.
Then I intend to search up and down the wizard/sorcerer and cleric/oracle lists to find the best spells for control. Mirror images would certainly keep me safer while grappling or debuffing one target. Anyone who has a spell to offer in the aid of any combat maneuver ill certainly take it. Make it a Warsighted Oracle.
You'll get Martial Flexibility, so you can just grab whatever Combat Maneuver Feat you want to do at that moment.
Gwen Smith wrote:
Actually, grapple is not size restricted at all. You don't even take additional penalties for grappling a larger creature...which is why my halfling tetori successfully grappled a gargantuan ooze-like-creature (we never actually identified it) in {Redacted} scenario. It was...somewhat epic.
I saw this and then went to go look up the rules to call b#&$#*&% because I could have sworn I saw a size restriction for grapple... and then I couldn't find it. Haha, oh wow. I love grapple even more now.
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Make it a Warsighted Oracle.
You'll get Martial Flexibility, so you can just grab whatever Combat Maneuver Feat you want to do at that moment.
I myself did that in my first "build" but I have a problem with it. I could only get two revelations across many levels and could not use extra revelation till level 3 when I get the first one. Adding to the problem there are 3 revelations that are worth more than one feat...
1)Weapon master is 3 feats in one revelation.
2) maneuver master is 3 feats that I don't need to meet prereqs for
3) resiliency is one feat of diehard but I didn't have to pay endurance feat tax to get it.
4) the war sight revelation is probably better than improved initiative or some such so its a bit more economical than paying extra revlation or improved initiative tax.
So by level 7 I would have 3 revelations given to me free and by level 11 id have 4. a war-sighted oracle at level 7 gets any 2 combat feats he qualifies for and at level 11 he gets 3 but only have one revelation at both level markers. so at level 11 your feats came out the same, at level 7 it was less, and at level 15 war sight is lessened again. Plus a war-sighted oracle had to wait 3 levels to get a revelation at all AND that battle oracle has yet to get his martial prof or heavy armor yet.
The math says that going war-sight is a trap. you could add more combat maneuver possibilities with war-sighted but you would have to take improved unarmed, couldn't use oracle level in place of BAB, and so on.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: The math says that going war-sight is a trap. you could add more combat maneuver possibilities with war-sighted but you would have to take improved unarmed, couldn't use oracle level in place of BAB, and so on. What you are describing sounds less like a trap to me then Warsighted just being a poor at low levels due to delayed access to Revelations, but that can be rectified with retraining rules as you can replace feats with ones that you now qualify for but didn't at the original level. The use of Dual Cursed with Warsighted would also grant extra revelations to make up for the deficit while also opening up the too good to miss Misfortune revelation.
As for the actual use of Martial Versatility, you could still use it to access whatever maneuver feats you happen to need that you didn't get via Maneuver Master, but the ability really does so much more than that and I think you are undervaluing it. It doesn't just do maneuver feats, it does all combat feats after all; the versatility there is pretty awesome, yet the reduced BAB of Oracle does hamper it from its full potential.
chaoseffect wrote: Renegadeshepherd wrote: The math says that going war-sight is a trap. you could add more combat maneuver possibilities with war-sighted but you would have to take improved unarmed, couldn't use oracle level in place of BAB, and so on. What you are describing sounds less like a trap to me then Warsighted just being a poor at low levels due to delayed access to Revelations, but that can be rectified with retraining rules as you can replace feats with ones that you now qualify for but didn't at the original level. The use of Dual Cursed with Warsighted would also grant extra revelations to make up for the deficit while also opening up the too good to miss Misfortune revelation.
As for the actual use of Martial Versatility, you could still use it to access whatever maneuver feats you happen to need that you didn't get via Maneuver Master, but the ability really does so much more than that and I think you are undervaluing it. It doesn't just do maneuver feats, it does all combat feats after all; the versatility there is pretty awesome, yet the reduced BAB of Oracle does hamper it from its full potential. I don't under value it, I actually wanted to make war-sighted work but it doesn't work well enough. I admit dual cursed did not occur to me and that will merit a another look because of the added revelations. Is it possible to be a dual cursed war-sighted ancient lorekeeper oracle? that's a lot of changes to a class and id hate to have to choose between the arcane list and war-sight.
I mean in all seriousness a single PC with mystic theurge abilities, superior combat maneuvers, and war sighted flexibility without having even spent a feat yet? ::inserts best starcraft archon voice:: POWER OVERWHELMING!!
actually if you have someone grappled you do not get to sneak attack them - they have a -4 penalty to their DEX but they are not denied their DEX. If you can get them PINNED then they are denied their DEX and you can sneak attack them (also if you get them Tied Up they are helpless and you can sneak attack them.
However it is also worth noting that attacking a pinned/helpless foe might be deemed an evil act by many.
re the discussions on Dirty Trick - the RP requirements will vary from table to table and DM to DM - and as I said, if you are going to specialize in it you should have a lot of ways to do tricks beyond just the maneuver itself...
chaoseffect wrote: Gwen Smith wrote:
Actually, grapple is not size restricted at all. You don't even take additional penalties for grappling a larger creature...which is why my halfling tetori successfully grappled a gargantuan ooze-like-creature (we never actually identified it) in {Redacted} scenario. It was...somewhat epic.
I saw this and then went to go look up the rules to call b~@*@+*+ because I could have sworn I saw a size restriction for grapple... and then I couldn't find it. Haha, oh wow. I love grapple even more now. The important distinction is that Pinning has a size restriction. You can Grapple whatever you want, but not pin them.
If its your size, you're grappling Hulk Hogan style and you have a chance to dominate with a pin. If its larger than you are then you're grappling Shadow of the Colossus style and hanging on for dear life.
ChainsawSam wrote: chaoseffect wrote: Gwen Smith wrote:
Actually, grapple is not size restricted at all. You don't even take additional penalties for grappling a larger creature...which is why my halfling tetori successfully grappled a gargantuan ooze-like-creature (we never actually identified it) in {Redacted} scenario. It was...somewhat epic.
I saw this and then went to go look up the rules to call b~@*@+*+ because I could have sworn I saw a size restriction for grapple... and then I couldn't find it. Haha, oh wow. I love grapple even more now. The important distinction is that Pinning has a size restriction. You can Grapple whatever you want, but not pin them.
If its your size, you're grappling Hulk Hogan style and you have a chance to dominate with a pin. If its larger than you are then you're grappling Shadow of the Colossus style and hanging on for dear life. I don't see anything about a size restriction in the rules for pinning or in the actual condition pinned either.
Pin
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Pinned
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: Is it possible to be a dual cursed war-sighted ancient lorekeeper oracle? Almost. Lorekeeper and Dual Cursed overlap in one, tiny stupid thing; the bonus skills from mystery.
chaoseffect wrote: ChainsawSam wrote: chaoseffect wrote: Gwen Smith wrote:
Actually, grapple is not size restricted at all. You don't even take additional penalties for grappling a larger creature...which is why my halfling tetori successfully grappled a gargantuan ooze-like-creature (we never actually identified it) in {Redacted} scenario. It was...somewhat epic.
I saw this and then went to go look up the rules to call b~@*@+*+ because I could have sworn I saw a size restriction for grapple... and then I couldn't find it. Haha, oh wow. I love grapple even more now. The important distinction is that Pinning has a size restriction. You can Grapple whatever you want, but not pin them.
If its your size, you're grappling Hulk Hogan style and you have a chance to dominate with a pin. If its larger than you are then you're grappling Shadow of the Colossus style and hanging on for dear life. I don't see anything about a size restriction in the rules for pinning or in the actual condition pinned either.
Pin
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Pinned
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
You're correct. I doubled back through the books and SRD. Found where I got confused.
On PFSRD the little table of combat feats has Choke Hold's description just as "May pin grappled opponent one size category larger than you." That must have put the bug in my head.
While we're on the subject of terrible Grapple feats, why the hell does Grapple seem to want a dozen feats for full support and why are some of them so terribly mediocre. Why does Choke Hold have a -5 penalty to be better at what a regular Grapple essentially already does adequately. Why the heck is it so much work and so many feats just to "Grapple good" and spend your entire combat locking down one foe, a Wizard can lock down a foe for an entire combat with a single standard action. Are all those feats really necessary? I can lock down that same Wizard (after he locked my friend down, he'll win intiative) without even Improved Grapple (what's he going to do? Hit me with an AOO? Not skurd).
The line of Grapple feats is really bloated and convoluted and each individual feat not adding much additional functionality. Kind of lame.
If grapple ends up being my maneuver, could someone lay out the basics of enlarge person versus just grappling at my normal size medium. I realize that enlarge person offers advantages but m most interested in if I'm a size smaller and I grapple what happens.
The thing that I feel happened with Grapple was, "Hey I have a cool idea to do in a grapple" "Cool, lets make it a feat" And then rinse and repeat for all the feats.
I think it's very personal what makes which combat maneuver your favorite.
Trip and Bull Rush builds can let you wrack up multiple attacks of opportunity. depending on the situation, manipulating battlefield positioning can be devastating. Tripping can be done with Reach, can be modified by both Strength and Dex together. But some things just can't be tripped or bull rushed.
Dirty Tricks are highly versatile allowing you to apply all kinds of debuffs, and if one doesn't work, another might. If something is immune to being Blinded, you can Deafen it. Most things can't deal with being Blinded and Deafened.
Grappling can be used to inflict lots of extra damage via multiple attacks or you can Tie Up creatures in 1 round. There's no size limit on Grappling like there is on Trip and Bull Rush. Usually you can use Grapple to tie up only 1 person at a time. Freedom of Movement completely shuts down Grappling, but there are ways around FoM. Most things can be Grappled. Even things that can't be Grappled usually can be Grappled.
Depending on the rules set you are using, Sundering can be used to inflict thousands of points of damage/round over multiple attacks.
can you explain the last point re Sundering (how do you get into the 1000's?)
one issue re "tie up" that often gets hand waved is how/where do you get the material to use to actual tie someone up? (in the middle of combat) - not a big deal but is an issue potentially - though mechanically getting someone to pinned or tied-up is definitely highly effective (few things can break a tie up from a grappling specialist).
(depending on alignment however it is worth noting that killing or attacking helpless enemies may be viewed as an evil act - and at higher levels many creatures will have some means of breaking/escaping a grapple - though casting etc is hard it isn't impossible.
Ryacaut wrote: can you explain the last point re Sundering (how do you get into the 1000's?) Like I said, it does depend upon the rules set. It mostly wouldn't work in PFS. Some of the things rely on 3.5, 3rd edition and d20 feats, any of which MIGHT be allowed by any DM as per Open Source.
Great Sunder allows the residual damage to pass onto the wearer/wielder of the thing you Sundered.
A Maul of the Titans does triple damage against inanimate objects, like something you'd Sunder. The Partial Enchantment for magic items rule can be used to itemize the features of Maul of the Titans thusly. 25,305 gp.
Masterwork Greatclub: 305gp
+3 enchantment: 18000gp
triple damage vs inanimate objects & can only be used by someone with 18 St of higher: 7000gp
There's no particular reason why you couldn't put the enchantment on something other than a Greatclub, like say a Greatsword or an Earthbreaker. So I envision a +1 Adamantine Earthbreaker Hammer of the Titans that bypasses the first 20 points of an object's hardness, does triple damage vs. inanimate objects, and with Great Sunder the residual damage goes through. Similarly, for an extra 3000gp, you could also put on the Shatterspike enchantment for an extra +3. Both the Pathfinder Feat Master Craftsman and the 3.5 Feat Ancestral Relic can be used to so customize this weapon.
There is the 3.5 Feat Combat Brute: if you Sunder your opponent's armor or weapon, you get another attack as a Free Action, which I'm pretty sure can be another Sunder Attempt.
There is the 3.5 Feat Deadly Concussion. If you Sunder and destroy your opponent's armor or shield with a blunt weapon, you inflict an equal amount of damage upon the wearer/wielder.
The 3rd Edition Feat Improved Sunder causes your Sunder attempts to do double damage against your opponent's weapon. This is also the description of Improved Sunder in the d20 Modern Rulebook. Multiple damage multipliers do stack: between this Improved Sunder and an 'of the Titans weapon, you would do quadruple damage.
There is the 3rd edition Feat Knockdown. If you do 10+ points of damage with 1 attack, you can make a free Trip Attempt. Then with Improved Trip 3.5 version, you can make a Free Action Attack, which can be a Sunder Attempt. Great Trip would also allow an extra attack, but an attack of opportunity, also nice.
There is the 3.5 Feat Pushback, where every successful attack allows a free Bull Rush. If you also take the 3.5 Feat Shock Trooper, if you Bull Rush one opponent into another, you get a free Trip attempt on both.
So we're up to multiple looping attacks with no real limit that do quadruple, sometimes octuple damage. But it is heavily dependent on what rules sets are allowed.
Ah - I pretty much only play PFS or Paizo books only home games - so no 3.5/3.0 or d20 feats in my games (or for that matter 3rd party Pathfinder stuff) so wasn't familiar with any of those rules - thought I think a few may have some Pathfinder similar feats/abilities - Sunder is definitely something I don't see used very often - though situationally it can be highly effective
Rycaut wrote: one issue re "tie up" that often gets hand waved is how/where do you get the material to use to actual tie someone up? (in the middle of combat) - not a big deal but is an issue potentially I favor the Robe of Infinite Twine which allows you to produce 10' of rope as a Swift Action and never runs out.
Rycaut wrote: though mechanically getting someone to pinned or tied-up is There is the Cavalier Order of the Penitent described in Knights of the Inner Sea. The level 2 Order Ability is Expert Captor, which allows the Cavalier to Tie Up an opponent he has Grappled--not Pinned!--as part of a maintain-a-Grapple Action, and he doesn't take the -10 when he does it. The condition is "as long as he has rope." It doesn't even say he has to have the rope in his hand. Maybe he should wear a Hand of the Mage and have the rope in his Mage Hand...
One problem I have is what if you are trying to Tie Up something really big like a Tyrannosaurus, or an Ancient Black Dragon? Hemp Rope has a Burst DC of 23, Silk Rope 24, Spider Silk Rope 25, Chain 26, and Mithril Chain 27. There are no rules exactly describing Adamantine Chain. There is the Dwarven Dorn Dergar, a 10' long Chain Weapon, which can come in Adamantine for an extra 3000gp. There is Iron Rope, which can upon Command [Word] turn into a 1" diameter iron bar, but the rules here are uncomfortably vague. There is no Burst DC for either an Adamantine Dwarven Dorn Dergar or 1" diameter iron bars
Enlarge Person also enlarges your equipment, so your stout silk climbing rope turns into suspension bridge cable, which should make it a lot harder to Burst, but how much harder? It would revert back to original size once you let go of it, so don't let go: keep grappling your opponent after it's tied up.
LoneKnave wrote: No Bounty Hunter Slayers?
It's like you don't even want to blind your enemy with your first dirty trick and then follow up with all the rest of your attacks also carrying dirty tricks instead of piddly SA damage. At way higher bonus any fighter can get, I might add.
Why stop there? What happened to a level in Strangler brawler?
Because why damage your opponent, you know he's no good to you dead.
Rycaut wrote: one issue re "tie up" that often gets hand waved is how/where do you get the material to use to actual tie someone up? (in the middle of combat) - not a big deal but is an issue potentially - though mechanically getting someone to pinned or tied-up is definitely highly effective (few things can break a tie up from a grappling specialist). Your victim's day is worse if he find out you're an order of the penitent cavalier. Tie up from grapple, no penalty.
Also:
Quote: Though druid is nice when dealing with size limitations on some combat maneuvers, ie trip. Trip isn't the whole story here even! A druid offers (for a feat - Shaping Focus) being down 1 BAB, not getting some feats (a smattering of spells and a domain can off-set that) for potentially giving yourself +6 on any maneuver 3 combats a day (and that assumes they call get stupidly placed apart).
Even if those comments together start to get into just doing a build...
Quote: I shouldn't post it since its a work in progress but since you asked... My current incarnation is a half elven lorekeeper oracle of the battle mystery. Using the favored class bonus of the elves to increase maneuver master revelation. not only would I get the extra feats earlier but would also increase the CMB to beyond even full BAB levels. at level 20 without anything else you would have better than +34. that's with no strength mod, no roll, or some such. Oh...oh wow. That's mean. Not really sure I can muster anything that might be a better use of any levels there. Maybe the 4-levels of Druid rather than casting Elemental body normally?
On the note of archetypes, Dual-Cursed apparently plays nice with neither Warsighted or Lore Keeper. Very sad.
Quote: Then I intend to search up and down the wizard/sorcerer and cleric/oracle lists to find the best spells for control. Mirror images would certainly keep me safer while grappling or debuffing one target. Anyone who has a spell to offer in the aid of any combat maneuver ill certainly take it. Who wants a good distribution of your spells/wealth? - Quicken all the true strike!
Rycaut wrote: Ah - I pretty much only play PFS or Paizo books only home games - so no 3.5/3.0 or d20 feats in my games (or for that matter 3rd party Pathfinder stuff) so wasn't familiar with any of those rules - thought I think a few may have some Pathfinder similar feats/abilities - Sunder is definitely something I don't see used very often - though situationally it can be highly effective The customized magic item I described is within the Pathfinder rules, and so is Great Sunder, of course. You could then take Great Cleave and Great Cleaving Finish.
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