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A good point was brought up in the Sound Striker FAQ thread by Neume; namely, that the Sound Striker's Weird Words are not considered weapons and, therefore, don't benefit from feats or effects like Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot which specifically apply to ranged weapon attack rolls.
Inspire Courage is in the clear as it specifies "attack and weapon damage rolls". Because of the phrasing, 'attack rolls' are classified differently than 'damage rolls' or it would have been worded "weapon attack and damage rolls" instead.
However, Neume's comment brings up a good point, that being that 'ranged attack rolls' and 'ranged weapons attack rolls' are technically different.
Now, a ray is specifically called out as being a weapon for the purposes of feats and effects that specify as such, like the feat Weapon Focus, or Improved Critical. Therefor, spells or abilities that are classified as 'rays' aren't at jeopardy.
However, Occult Adventures is coming with a new class that is all about the ranged attack rolls: the Kineticist. True, we don't have the final print form of the Kineticist before us, but we do have the playtest.
This is what the Kineticist's 'Kinetic Blast' ability has to say about the blast itself:
At 1st level, a kineticist chooses one of her element’s simple blast wild talents. The kineticist can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will. A kinetic blast requires at least one hand free to aim the blast. All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
By using wild talents called infusions, a kineticist can alter her kinetic blast to suit her whims. Substance infusions alter a kinetic blast’s inner nature to cause an additional effect, while form infusions change the outer nature of the blast, causing it to manifest in a completely different way. You can use any of the blast wild talents you know in conjunction with no more than one associated form infusion and no more than one associated substance infusion at a time.
Notice it doesn't specify what kind of ranged attack the Kinetic Blast is. That would be because the Kineticist can opt to use a ranged attack that targets Touch AC, or normal AC, depending on her elemental leaning. I will quote what each element offers for an attack and any pertinent information.
Aether - Telekinetic Blast "You throw whatever unattended object happens to be nearby at a single foe as a ranged attack."
Air - Air Blast: "You batter a single foe with a gust of air as a ranged attack.
Air - Electric Blast: " You shoot an arc of electricity to shock a single foe as a ranged touch attack."
Earth - Earth Blast: " You shape earth into clumps or jagged shards and send it flying at a foe as a ranged attack."
Fire: " You unleash a gout of flickering fire to burn a single foe as a ranged touch attack."
Water - Cold Blast: " You emit a beam of utter cold to freeze a single foe as a ranged touch attack."
Water - Water Blast: "You slam a single foe with a stream of
water as a ranged attack."
So all of the Kineticist's blasts are right 'ranged attacks' or 'ranged tough attacks'. None of them are 'ranged weapon attacks' or 'rays'. This means that the Kineticist may be able to take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, but the Kineticist is unable to use them with his Kinetic Blast, because they don't qualify. So a class that is built entirely around the idea of blasting people with ranged attacks... forever has to eat the -4 penalty for shooting into melee.
Sure, some of them target touch AC, but some of them don't.
But it's not just the Kineticst who suffers from this distinction. Sound Striker bards do as well, with their Weird Words ability. So do any casters that use a 'ranged attack' roll or 'ranged touch attack' roll with their spells.
So, the FAQrrata I ask:
Should 'ranged attacks' and 'ranged touch attacks' be classified as weapons for the purpose of feats or effect like Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot?
This is one that may take some time to answer as it could have non-immediate side effects down the line. But! It's a question that should be answered before the Kineticist makes it to print, or at least, shortly after.
However, it might just be easier to errata PBS and PS to change their wording from from specifying 'ranged weapons' to just 'ranged attacks', which should allow for the Kineticist and other non-weapon ranged attackers (like the Sound Striker bard or casters) to benefit from said feats.
The way I would interpret it is this:
Paizo specifically targeted Rays as counting as a kind of weapon so that they could benefit from certain feats (namely weapon focus)
This being said, the fact that they had to specify that a specific type of magic counts as a weapon and qualifies for certain feats automatically means that the same is not true for other kinds of magic, such as ranged attacks (touch or not)
Additionally, I feel as though it would be strange for a magician of any kind to deal additional damage because of where he splashes his acid on someone or where a blast of fire struck an enemy as is the case with Point-Blank Shot. My simple take, even though it isn't backed up by rules, would be that many of those feats simply apply to ranged weapons and not magic.
An example of why this would be the case is the Precise shot feat which states:
"You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll."
This means that this feat could not be used for rays, magic projectiles or blasts of any kind
hmm? if ray are weapons for feats. and they have range beyond touch are they not ,ranged ,weapons,?
why wouldn't prcise shot work with a ray?. weapon focus treat it as a WEAPON. if you would not include it as a ranged weapon id also push to vote that since it is not a ranged weapon .it shouldn't acure a -4 for firing into melee to begin with,that panlity is for throwing\shooting a WEAPON into melee...
also id say it is damn wwell important if your acid only burn the shulder of your target or goes through his eye to start melting his brain...
oh and here is the Q&A about ray being a weapon
the main answer there is one word : "YES" (it also go on to explain the defrence betwin rays and other damaging spells like fireball)
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A good point was brought up in the Sound Striker FAQ thread by Neume; namely, that the Sound Striker's Weird Words are not considered weapons and, therefore, don't benefit from feats or effects like Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot which specifically apply to ranged weapon attack rolls.
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
I'd just like to point out that, if what you're arguing would be true, then non-weapon ranged attacks don't suffer the -4 for firing into melee anyways.
I would be fine if they don't benefit from precise shot or poit blank shot if it means they don't suffer from the -4 for firing into melee. That would help a lot with feat tax that the class already has.
Weapon Focus can be taken with the Kinetic Blast.
Wouldn't that mean it qualifies as a weapon attack for the purposes of things like Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, just like Rays?
Weapon Focus can be taken with the Kinetic Blast.
Wouldn't that mean it qualifies as a weapon attack for the purposes of things like Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, just like Rays?
The problem is, that Kinetic Blast being a viable choice with Weapon Focus will probably need to be FAQ'd in unless it's mentioned in the book somewhere. At which point you still have the same issues as above of some things being qualifying and some things not even though they all should.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The problem is, that Kinetic Blast being a viable choice with Weapon Focus will probably need to be FAQ'd in unless it's mentioned in the book somewhere.
Does it have an attack roll?
Does it deal damage?The current playtest passes that test with Yes.
So because it is weapon like, you can take Weapon Focus.
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The problem is, that Kinetic Blast being a viable choice with Weapon Focus will probably need to be FAQ'd in unless it's mentioned in the book somewhere.Does it have an attack roll?
Does it deal damage?The current playtest passes that test with Yes.
So because it is weapon like, you can take Weapon Focus.
Weapon Focus (rock)
Weapon focus(chair);)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Weapon Focus (rock)
Weapon focus(chair);)
Did you make an attack roll with the rock or chair?
Does it deal hit point damage?Then you gain the Weapon Focus benefit.
The only caveat is this has significant table variance with regard to using the rock or chair as an improvised weapon.
I feel... that there is enough ambiguity in the subject that it should be sorted out before class built entirely around non-weapon ranged attacks is released.
Why? As the class has yet to be written up, a simple "this counts as xyz for purposes of these feats" or even "class can choose these feats with this class ability" in the class makes it non issue.
Why? As the class has yet to be written up, a simple "this counts as xyz for purposes of these feats" or even "class can choose these feats with this class ability" in the class makes it non issue.
The class itself has already gone to the editors and is, basically, in it's final form. Mark said that, unless some grave error or game breaking combo comes out, then what he sent off to the editors is the final form of the class.
It'd probably be easier, and better, at this point to release a FAQ that clarifies what is and is not a 'ranged weapon' than it would be to edit the Kineticist class and make the editors re-evaluate word spacing and stuff for the page.
Plus, it handles the problems for other, similar, abilities in the game on whether or not they do, or do not, benefit (or are punished) by something in the game.
Can anyone think of anything that would be horribly broken by simply allowing Weapon Focus to be taken for any weapon, ability, or spell that requires an attack roll? Or for Precise / Point Blank Shot (and all their follow up feats) to simply be ruled to work for all ranged attacks, regardless of the specific nature of the attack/ability/spell?
Can anyone think of anything that would be horribly broken by simply allowing Weapon Focus to be taken for any weapon, ability, or spell that requires an attack roll? Or for Precise / Point Blank Shot (and all their follow up feats) to simply be ruled to work for all ranged attacks, regardless of the specific nature of the attack/ability/spell?
Odd interactions with the Warpriest?
But that already exists if someone were to take a level in an arcane class for Ray of Frost and then go into Warpriest.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Can anyone think of anything that would be horribly broken by simply allowing Weapon Focus to be taken for any weapon, ability, or spell that requires an attack roll? Or for Precise / Point Blank Shot (and all their follow up feats) to simply be ruled to work for all ranged attacks, regardless of the specific nature of the attack/ability/spell?
The PBS/Precise Shot has already been answered several times, it works for anything that makes an attack roll (spell, supernatural ability, anything).
As for weapon focus, we know that Weapon Focus (Ray) is allowed. What we don't know is whether or not Ray covers all ranged touch things including ones not listed as Ray or if you can choose other things to cover them like Weapon Focus (Kineticist).
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Weapon Focus (kinetic blast) was answered up thread.
Point Blank/Precise Shot works with any ranged attack roll.
As to the Warpriest, and Sacred Weapon (ray), most rays are automatically disqualified. They largely deal elemental damage.
The few that don't aren't enough reason to try the combo in the first place. Most non-elemental rays deal more damage than any Sacred Weapon already, and the only one that doesn't (the icicle... whatever) is still underwhelming. You may as well dip one level of Kineticist instead.
At that point, we're just arguing for argument's sake.