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There's an anarchic music quiz in th UK called 'Never mind the Buzzcocks', which for a few seasons had guest hosts. Two stick in my mind - I saw them close together and noticed the contrast.
In one, the host was James Blunt, and the other was Alice Cooper. I don't think there's any disputing that Blunt looks more attractive than Alice, but I found him boring: if he started to ramble, I wanted them to get on with the quiz.
Whereas Alice? Well here's a clip. I'd have been quite happy for them to scrap the quiz and just listen to him for the whole show.
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In second edition, there was a book called Unearthed Arcana. It was a book full of alternative rules, including Mana rules and other things.
One thing that was used by many was the seventh stat, COMeliness. Where CHA was the personality and wit, COM was the physical beauty of the character. A higher CHA upped the COM, something like 18+ is +1 to COM, where lower CHA would down COM, though most didn't have 5 CHA or lower.
I was disappointed that 3.0 never added the COM stat as a regular stat.
Some other systems have Physical Beauty as a bought quantity, like a feat would be in PF.
this is the same game where bat s*+* gets turned into fireballs and elves walk down the street and may or may not say hi to you as you pass by. Realism shouldn't be the basis of your argument.
Actually, just as a bit of trivia, most D&D spell components do make some level of practical sense, least the original ones did.
Fireballs require bat guano because bat guano is high in Sulfur, which is a primary ingredient in gunpowder. Lightning Bolt required amber because rubbing amber creates a large static charge.
Lot of the components were like that.
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Str: I can crush that tomato.
Dex: I can dodge that tomato.
Con: I can eat that tomato and not get sick.
Int: I know that a tomato is a fruit.
Wis: I know not to use a tomato in fruit salad.
Cha: I can sell tomato based fruit salads.
In my games, Charisma measures how well-liked or appealing you are, personality-wise. Physical attractiveness, on the other hand, is a combination of Strength (muscle), Dexterity (flexibility), and Constitution (health/color). This makes much more sense to me.
I guess you could say that physical attractiveness is MAD in my games.
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One thing I should mention is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One person's super hot stud is another person's human shaped repellant, and don't get me started on fetishes.
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Your argument about how certain character concepts need to be ugly if charisma = beauty is what I call a feature, not a bug.
Then we're probably never going to agree on this topic. I'm all for mechanical trade offs but not for trading mechanical effectiveness for something that does absolutely nothing mechanically.
Why can no martial artist ever be both attractive and effective? They usually are in the Kung-Fu movies I have in mind when I make the character.
Voila, everyone gets to play a supermodel.
Do you watch movies? We generally expect our heroes to be attractive. Is this a good thing... eh, probably not, but it's certainly true and sometimes it's what we want out of our characters. Essentially restricting that paradigm to Paladins Sorceress and any other charisma based class feels incredibly arbitrary to me. Again, why can't a monk be attractive?
then excise it completely from the game and replace it with a feat
But it doesn't do anything. I'm with you on excise it but why make it anything at all? Why require players to make a trade off for something that's purely descriptive? I'm not required to pay a feat if I want a bad ass scar or if I want blue eyes or if I want my name to start with a Z. Those are all equally mechanically relevant to attractiveness. Also we now have the situation where a character was butt ugly at level 1 but then took the beauty feat at level 3 and suddenly is a super model.
- Torger
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Where's that damn horse when you need it.Sorry buddy, There is a whole lot of threads that need my attention
Too slow. You've been replaced by a better, deader, more self-flagellating equine.
this is the same game where bat s@&% gets turned into fireballs and elves walk down the street and may or may not say hi to you as you pass by. Realism shouldn't be the basis of your argument.Blah. I run it simply as the highest of beauty and personal magnetism. No more a!&*+~& supermodels who dumped charisma through the basement. The lack of those can only ever improve the game.By making the game less realistic? Are you really more likely to follow *random model* into the crucible of war then an ugly sergeant who can command just by shouting insults on top of orders?
Be honest. You hate dump stats. Which is silly, because there is no game benefit for being attractive. So why does it matter?
It's uh... not? I think you severely misunderstood something. The point was that Sissyl evidently felt that people should be inclined to follow attractive people over people with actual force of personality (ie. Charisma), which is kind of verisimilitude breaking regardless of whether or not people can cast fireballs.
Not the "there are fantastic elements in the game therefore all reality can go hang" argument again. Dragons existing, so to speak, ONLY means that dragons exist ... And nothing more.this is the same game where bat s@*# gets turned into fireballs and elves walk down the street and may or may not say hi to you as you pass by. Realism shouldn't be the basis of your argument.Blah. I run it simply as the highest of beauty and personal magnetism. No more a!&*+~& supermodels who dumped charisma through the basement. The lack of those can only ever improve the game.By making the game less realistic? Are you really more likely to follow *random model* into the crucible of war then an ugly sergeant who can command just by shouting insults on top of orders?
Be honest. You hate dump stats. Which is silly, because there is no game benefit for being attractive. So why does it matter?
It means physics don't work like they do in our world, which has a whole lot of implications for starters. Like say not limiting martials to what people in our world are capable of.
It means only that there are specific and enumerated departures from reality. Not that reality no longer applies.
Are you sure? Cause I don't see that anywhere in the book.
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It means only that there are specific and enumerated departures from reality. Not that reality no longer applies.
I know where I live, people can fall hundreds of feet and just stand up afterwards and a good nights sleep heals a stab wound... :P
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Charisma does not equal appearance.
As a fine point, I don't see your position in the book.It means only that there are specific and enumerated departures from reality. Not that reality no longer applies.Are you sure? Cause I don't see that anywhere in the book.
My point is that a supermodel can have a 7 Charisma. And the book agrees with this "attractiveness" is not one of the things Charisma controls. Merely "appearance" which should not be confused with "attractiveness". Furthermore, the books have many very attractive looking characters at +0 or worse CHA bonus. So... ya.
Charisma does not equal appearance.
Nice. Good job bringing in the Godwin's.
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Nice. Good job bringing in the Godwin's.Charisma does not equal appearance.
It's the only time it's actually relevant ;P
It's the only time it's actually relevant ;PNice. Good job bringing in the Godwin's.Charisma does not equal appearance.
It's a fine example. Just thought it was funny.
My point is that a supermodel can have a 7 Charisma. And the book agrees with this "attractiveness" is not one of the things Charisma controls. Merely "appearance" which should not be confused with "attractiveness". Furthermore, the books have many very attractive looking characters at +0 or worse CHA bonus. So... ya.As a fine point, I don't see your position in the book.It means only that there are specific and enumerated departures from reality. Not that reality no longer applies.Are you sure? Cause I don't see that anywhere in the book.
That's easy, I've met many models who are complet @$$holes. Charisma 7 even if you're gorgeous.
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Merely "appearance" which should not be confused with "attractiveness".
I can tell somebody never played World of Darkness games.
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And of course the bachelorette on the right! Here we have the Pit Hag with a drop dead gorgeous 19 Charisma.
Wiry, wicked females look like little more than burned blistered skin pulled over bones. Tiny horns jut from their forehead and they have razor sharp talons springing from their long fingered hands.
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Hawt.
I agree that you can be hot without being charismatic and vice versa, but given that Pathfinder's got no real rules for appearance, I use stats as a quick-and-dirty justifier on the fly, not because it's the best or most accurate option, but because it's quick and simple.
More or less, strength is bulk (strength workouts add mass, after all), con is definition (endurance workouts lead to definition), and dex, I just use for leanness, because agile flexible folks tend to be lean. Charisma I use for facial beauty Or other...pleasant "assets" either gender might have, such as secondary sex characteristics, again, not because it's the most accurate, but because it's easier.
So my friend with a Str 18, Dexter 14, Con 16 and Cha 7 looks like a total butterface.
Also, this is mostly how I describe my own characters, or anyone who would ask "what do you think my character should look like?"...not how I define other's.
I'm really glad there's no charisma stat in my system.
More information Please.
[Will grovel if necessary]
Batts
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Charisma does not equal appearance.
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I'm okay with Charisma being physical appearance if and only if beard is determined by Intelligence (male, female, or otherwise) and baldness is determined by Wisdom.
Charisma does not equal appearance.
Batts
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Megan Fox is my current go-to example for "pretty person with mediocre charisma."
Compare her to Jennifer Lawrence or Emma Stone for your "pretty person with high charisma."
For male examples, I suspect that, say, Channing Tatum compared to Chris Pratt would work. Though Mr. Tatum's been more successful than Ms. Fox.
Incidentally, pretty-but-not-actually-charming people do actually exist. It's not a stretch for characters that dumped charisma but are still conventionally attractive to exist.
(Though amusingly, a number of my players still directly correlate charisma to attractiveness. I blame 2E Skills & Powers =P)
Hell, in our society you can BUY being conventionally attractive. I'm sure you can do it in a society with magic.
(And now I'm thinking of the sculpt features spell from that one issue of Dungeon...)
It should be noted Mr. Tatum has an incredibly high dexterity, and also has put many ranks in perform (dance)
I'm okay with Charisma being physical appearance if and only if beard is determined by Intelligence (male, female, or otherwise) and baldness is determined by Wisdom.
Well, you've given me all six attributes for my quick and dirty rules, and I thank you for it sir.
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It's a fine example. Just thought it was funny.It's the only time it's actually relevant ;PNice. Good job bringing in the Godwin's.Charisma does not equal appearance.
Amusingly, Hitler was Gary Gygax's example for both an 18 Charisma and why charisma and physical attractiveness are unrelated.
I'm aware of only a couple things in Pathfinder that can translate into "you're so pretty you actually get a mechanical advantage from it"
1) The Charming trait.
2) Being a Changeling with Green Widow.
Those are the only instances I can think where being pretty in of itself is doing something for you, and they specifically only give you the bonuses against people who find you attractive.
Someone else can probably bring up more.
Merely "appearance" which should not be confused with "attractiveness".I can tell somebody never played World of Darkness games.
I tried once. It was a bad idea. Clearly WoD (I guess it would have been oWoD when I played) wants to be a game with mechanics obviously, it's just really bad at writing rules. Probably should have tried putting out a campaign setting for a better rules system instead.
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Don't forget beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Even if beauty=charisma, a CHA 30 aboleth is still an aboleth. One sexy aboleth.
If beauty was in the eye of the beholder, at least we'd know it wasn't enhanced by magic.
I'm really glad there's no charisma stat in my system.More information Please.
[Will grovel if necessary]
Batts
It's over in the Archmage thread in the suggestions/homebrew forum. The stats are: Strength, Fitness, Dexterity, Agility, Perception, Cognition, Willpower, Psyche. You use a combination of cognition and psyche for your social skills.
Half-orcs get the reverse with the intimidating trait, so ugly they get a mechanical advantage.It's a fine example. Just thought it was funny.It's the only time it's actually relevant ;PNice. Good job bringing in the Godwin's.Charisma does not equal appearance.
Amusingly, Hitler was Gary Gygax's example for both an 18 Charisma and why charisma and physical attractiveness are unrelated.
I'm aware of only a couple things in Pathfinder that can translate into "you're so pretty you actually get a mechanical advantage from it"
1) The Charming trait.
2) Being a Changeling with Green Widow.
Those are the only instances I can think where being pretty in of itself is doing something for you, and they specifically only give you the bonuses against people who find you attractive.
Someone else can probably bring up more.
How do you know that? Maybe they intimidate you sexually.
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Beauty is often a slave to fashion, but the real deal, real attractiveness, has some aspects that independent of an ideal appearance. Bill Clinton is undeniably attractive at a physical level to many people, yet he looks nothing like a fashion model or a Hollywood leading man. Frida Kahlo was attractive, and had affairs with both men and women; yet, she had a striking, somewhat unusual appearance, not at all a conventional belle. I think irrespective of what is considered "ideal" in a society, some people do actually possess a greater degree of universal physical attractiveness. "I don't normally like XYZ but ABC is XYZ and hot" would be an indication that someone warrants a higher Charisma score. That's not superficial beauty, that's some level of attractiveness that is bankable.
The interplay of physical appearance, social cues, and personal psychology is really too complex to break out a separate Comeliness. That would be like breaking out Lifting from Strength, perhaps even less justifiable.
That's the thing, Charisma is presence. The nymph that is so damn sexy you forget your name.....high Charisma. That horrific monster that make you $#!+ yourself....high charisma. that abberation that's so damn wrong that you start babbling incoherently from looking at it too long....high charisma.
Beauty is often a slave to fashion, but the real deal, real attractiveness, has some aspects that independent of an ideal appearance. Bill Clinton is undeniably attractive at a physical level to many people, yet he looks nothing like a fashion model or a Hollywood leading man. Frida Kahlo was attractive, and had affairs with both men and women; yet, she had a striking, somewhat unusual appearance, not at all a conventional belle. I think irrespective of what is considered "ideal" in a society, some people do actually possess a greater degree of universal physical attractiveness. "I don't normally like XYZ but ABC is XYZ and hot" would be an indication that someone warrants a higher Charisma score. That's not superficial beauty, that's some level of attractiveness that is bankable.
The interplay of physical appearance, social cues, and personal psychology is really too complex to break out a separate Comeliness. That would be like breaking out Lifting from Strength, perhaps even less justifiable.
THIS. Just like there are different aspects of Dexterity (quick hand eye coordination, flexibility, pure speed, ability to dodge) there are different aspects of Charisma (sexual attractiveness, power of persuasion, the ability to inspire, the power to instill terror)
Essentially Charisma is any quality that insures that an individual is not only impossible to ignore, but posesses the ability to incite a reaction of some sort from most of the people they encounter
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I would also mention that a whole lot of one's appearance is not inherent so much as a matter of presentation. Supermodels don't look nearly so good when they're sitting on their couch dressed in dumpy clothes without any makeup on, after all. Or to bring up a classic trope, the guy/girl who doesn't looks fairly unattractive most of the time, but once they get a haircut and change clothes suddenly they're beautiful.
As far as charisma goes, I think a lot of it stems from knowing how to use what you have to maximum effect. Whether it's trying to look beautiful and glamorous, or that guy with the crooked nose and scars trying to look rugged.
I would also mention that a whole lot of one's appearance is not inherent so much as a matter of presentation. Supermodels don't look nearly so good when they're sitting on their couch dressed in dumpy clothes without any makeup on, after all. Or to bring up a classic trope, the guy/girl who doesn't looks fairly unattractive most of the time, but once they get a haircut and change clothes suddenly they're beautiful.
As far as charisma goes, I think a lot of it stems from knowing how to use what you have to maximum effect. Whether it's trying to look beautiful and glamorous, or that guy with the crooked nose and scars trying to look rugged.
indeed, Hitler was a snappy dresser even by today's standards. He was also meticulous with respect to his personal appearance, possibly due to his love of being seen.
Your argument about how certain character concepts need to be ugly if charisma = beauty is what I call a feature, not a bug.Then we're probably never going to agree on this topic. I'm all for mechanical trade offs but not for trading mechanical effectiveness for something that does absolutely nothing mechanically.
Why can no martial artist ever be both attractive and effective? They usually are in the Kung-Fu movies I have in mind when I make the character.
Voila, everyone gets to play a supermodel.Do you watch movies? We generally expect our heroes to be attractive. Is this a good thing... eh, probably not, but it's certainly true and sometimes it's what we want out of our characters. Essentially restricting that paradigm to Paladins Sorceress and any other charisma based class feels incredibly arbitrary to me. Again, why can't a monk be attractive?
then excise it completely from the game and replace it with a featBut it doesn't do anything. I'm with you on excise it but why make it anything at all? Why require players to make a trade off for something that's purely descriptive? I'm not required to pay a feat if I want a bad ass scar or if I want blue eyes or if I want my name to start with a Z. Those are all equally mechanically relevant to attractiveness. Also we now have the situation where a character was butt ugly at level 1 but then took the beauty feat at level 3 and suddenly is a super model.
- Torger
As it stands, a few characters in a party (one or two) need any kind of points in charisma. These few max it, because it feeds their abilities. Everyone else uses charisma as a way to get more points to put in the other stats. Soooo, why not do as I described, remove every single reference to charisma in the game and let everyone choose their personality, appearance and whatever else as they wish? Slash 1 sixth of the point buy budget, making 20 PB into 17 PB, etc. Then decide if you want to keep the interpersonal skills or put them up as stuff solved only by roleplaying, or if the skills get based on int/wis instead. As for a feat, well, I thought since we have the Leadership feat, why not give other more substantial uses of charisma their own feats as well? For Sorcerers and Bards, you could give them one or two of these for free. There are things you could add if you wanted, but I wouldn't call it necessary.
Done this way, you can have your handsome martial artist. The combat monsters can call themselves supermodels (without having to compensate this through being disgustingly awkward to be around), people can follow their grizzled old sergeant into combat, and so on.