So, Charisma equals physical attractiveness, eh? Let's see what the officially endorsed art in the NPC Codex has to say about that.
Apparently, a Charisma score of 8 looks like...
1. Graceful Slayer, pg. 22
2. Shadow Cleric, pg. 59
3. Scheming Fencer, pg. 86
4. Fiendslayer, pg. 136
5. Undead Slayer, pg. 139
6. Death Initiate, pg. 209
Yep, those all look real ugly to me. Now let's look at some average looking people (Charisma 10-12)...
1. Death Priest, pg. 50
2. Mistress of High Places, pg. 70
3. Poisonous Performer, pg. 102
4. Seductive Enchanter, pg. 183
5. Cultist, pg. 249
If these people represent average beauty, I can only assume the Paizo artists and writers were born and raised in, and have never left, the Viper Room.
On the other hand, their idea of Charisma 14 makes me think they frequent a different kind of club...
1. Priest of Oblivion, pg. 60
"Charisma determines a character's physical beauty" doesn't seem so certain anymore, does it?
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Physical Beauty is only partially charisma. It's also force of personality and social tact. For instance my alchemist has low charisma and is adorable, but it shows up with her having social anxiety.
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It CAN be represented as physical beauty. It can also be represented as force of personality. Someone can be GORGEOUS yet still have trouble in public speaking (as represented by a lack of skill points in Diplomacy or Bluff). Likewise an ugly person can have a very easy time manipulating people into doing what they want. Likewise a charasmatic person can do both.
Or... you can represent it as your very thoughts being able to bend reality to your will without the training a wizard needs.
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Uh, where are you pulling that from in the first place?
Per the Core Rulebook:
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
I see appearance in there, but no mention of beauty (physical or otherwise).
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When they say "appearance" they mean beauty/attractiveness. However just because someone/something has a high charisma it does not mean they are attractive. They could just have a strong personality and be able to get people to follow them.
edit: I dont think the majority of the board ever thought that "high charisma always equals high level of physical attractiveness", so I don't even know they this thread was made.
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Where's that damn horse when you need it.
Where's that damn horse when you need it.
It died, but it seems some people are still beating it.
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Charisma is appearance in so much as it is presentation. Attractiveness is far more than just physical structure.
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Technically someone can be ugly as sin and have a high Charisma; they would likely be focused more on things like Intimidate and Bluff rather than Diplomacy, however, as a result.
That being said, a fair amount of "appearance" is entirely subjective - two people can have identical faces and yet one be perceived as "more attractive" than the other because of body language, posture, pheromones, etc.
Charisma is a catch-all of your force of presence, really.
"Comeliness" was a measured (optional) stat in 1st and 2nd Ed that didn't get carried over to 3rd ed that really DID register your physical attractiveness - it was a composite stat determined by your Strength, Constitution, and Charisma altogether, though with more emphasis on Str and Con than on Cha (thus why you could still have a low Comeliness and high Charisma, to allow for charismatic fugly sods like Hitler).
However, the major problem with Comeliness is that measuring physical attractiveness is fine if everyone is the same species or related species like Elves, Humans, Vishkanya, etc. who share a nearly-identical morphology and would thus share instincts on what is or isn't percieved "beauty"; it starts to break down with things like Gnolls and Ratfolk, though, who have vastly different morphologies and thus would be instinctively attracted to aspects wholly alien to other species.
To illustrate:
And they put (Ping-Pong the Panda) in the cage with Ling-Ling and say "Go mate", and he looks at her like..."I would never f*** her. That is one ugly panda b**ch. If you were a panda, you would know she is one ugly panda b**ch. I'd rather lick my own b*lls then f*** that panda b**ch. I would not f*** her with a koala's d**k.
However, Charisma can carry across species, and thus an individual who is considered ugly by, say, Gnolls, can attract Gnoll followers or make them cower in fear by force of personality alone.
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Copy-pastaing the short discussion I had with James Jacobs again:
So, Charisma. And by extension, all stats.
Do you see them as affecting EVERY aspect that is listed in the stat description, or just one, most, or somewhere in between?
Ex: By "RAW" (not really the right word but we'll roll with it), can you have a character who is very attractive, but abrasive, unpersuasive, very uncharismatic, and have that suffice for a low Cha character?
Likewise, can a character with high Dex also be a bit of a klutz, or a low Dex character have quick hands? Or a high Wis character be lacking in all common sense, but with great perceptive powers and so forth?
There seems to be some argument about this on a fairly regular basis, and while it doesn't really affect much, I'd like your input on the matter.
And apologies if this has been asked before. There are a LOT of posts in this thread. =p
Charisma affects every aspect in its stat description; that's why we included those things in that description.
You can have a hideous looking person with a high charisma, and a beautiful person who doesn't have a particularly powerful personality; in both cases their high charisma is going to inspire fans and followers. You see this all the time in movie stars. That said, physical appearance is really NOT determined or set in stone by Charisma... but honestly? A potent appearance (be it beauty or ugliness) is ENHANCED by a high Charisma. Two identical twins with identical appearances don't have exactly the same Charismas... and the one with the higher score will be regarded as the uglier/more beautiful of the two.
Other stats don't really have this going on, really.
Correct. High Charisma certainly DRAMATICALLY increases the chances of a character being memorable in appearance (be that beauty or hideousness), but doesn't preclude something like the stereotyped "airhead" who's super beautiful but devoid of personality, or the village idiot who is super ugly but not particularly memorable because of a lack of significant personality. (Note that you CAN have an "airhead" or "village idiot" who DOES have a strong personalty!)
Sweet, thanks for the answer. I like this interpretation, if I'm reading this right. Cha determines your appearance, but not necessarily your attractiveness? Just how striking, memorable, "Wow factor"-y it is, whether it's anything special on its own or not?
After years of memorable shenanigans from rules lawyers masquerading as players, I have never fully decoupled appearance from charisma. It will always have an effect.
My preferred way to sum up charisma is thus: Charisma is your ability to convince people.
Bluff: Convincing people that you are speaking the truth.
Diplomacy: Convincing people that you are right and/or that they should be friendly and cooperate with you.
Handle Animal: Convincing animals to cooperate.
Intimidate: Convincing people that you are a threat.
Use Magic Device: Convincing the device to do as you will ;P
Charisma as casting stat: Convincing the universe to bend to your will.
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Where's that damn horse when you need it.It died, but it seems some people are still beating it.
No need to keep beating me, I assure you I can do it myself.
No need to keep beating me, I assure you I can do it myself.Where's that damn horse when you need it.It died, but it seems some people are still beating it.
But you don't have the hands!
Physical Beauty is part of the Charisma score though it's one of the many factors.
Sure you can be beautiful and be an a*~&!+% resulting in a total of 8, but someone less beautiful but with the same attitude should have an even lower score.
Another example should be that an increase in the charisma score dose not result in an improvement in physical appearance but rather in attitude mainly, while an increase in beauty should lead to an increase to the charisma score.
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Blah. I run it simply as the highest of beauty and personal magnetism. No more a+@$+#& supermodels who dumped charisma through the basement. The lack of those can only ever improve the game.
Blah. I run it simply as the highest of beauty and personal magnetism. No more a!&*+~& supermodels who dumped charisma through the basement. The lack of those can only ever improve the game.
By making the game less realistic? Are you really more likely to follow *random model* into the crucible of war then an ugly sergeant who can command just by shouting insults on top of orders?
Be honest. You hate dump stats. Which is silly, because there is no game benefit for being attractive. So why does it matter?
Nobody has to maximize the lower of the two. It is fine to put 18 in charisma and look awful. Remember that everything you use charisma for goes off charisma. That ugly sergeant has a pretty good charisma. Absolutely not what I would call unrealistic.
Nobody has to maximize the lower of the two. It is fine to put 18 in charisma and look awful. Remember that everything you use charisma for goes off charisma. That ugly sergeant has a pretty good charisma. Absolutely not what I would call unrealistic.
Then why do you care if there is supermodel with 7 charisma? To quote you:
Remember that everything you use charisma for goes off charisma.
Because for people who dump stats, they motivate acting like toxic a&~+!+!s with the fact that they are supremely beautiful. Using the higher, sure, they can have personality values of up to seven or whatever, but if they actually choose to go lower, that is their choice - and something that can be dealt with without the excuse that "they are just playing their character". The fewer the vomitous characters are, the better.
I'm sorry I could not follow that. At best, I've seen a player problem, at worst it made no sense. Would you mind clarifying that a bit?
Say I want to make Conan the Barbarian on limited points buy. Obviously, I'm going to want maxed-out physical stats. I don't want to dump Wisdom, so I'm going to have to dump Charisma to 7. And I'm in a 'you have to role-play your mental stats' campaign. But I still want to be a handsome muscular superman, so what do I do? Low Charisma characters tend to be either painfully shy or obnoxiously rude to everyone. The latter is the logical choice, given those conditions.
Precisely. So, if your appearance is important to you, dump int or wis instead. Problem solved.
Megan Fox is my current go-to example for "pretty person with mediocre charisma."
Compare her to Jennifer Lawrence or Emma Stone for your "pretty person with high charisma."
For male examples, I suspect that, say, Channing Tatum compared to Chris Pratt would work. Though Mr. Tatum's been more successful than Ms. Fox.
Incidentally, pretty-but-not-actually-charming people do actually exist. It's not a stretch for characters that dumped charisma but are still conventionally attractive to exist.
(Though amusingly, a number of my players still directly correlate charisma to attractiveness. I blame 2E Skills & Powers =P)
Hell, in our society you can BUY being conventionally attractive. I'm sure you can do it in a society with magic.
(And now I'm thinking of the sculpt features spell from that one issue of Dungeon...)
Precisely. So, if your appearance is important to you, dump int or wis instead. Problem solved.
Can I mentally picture my character as attractive and just not mention it in your presence?
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Charisma is simply how noticeable a character is. It doesn't dictate beauty or lack thereof. A high Cha character stands out more than a low Cha character to other characters. This could be due to an amazingly beautiful appearance or an amazingly unattractive appearance, or it could simply be a commanding presence.
Precisely. So, if your appearance is important to you, dump int or wis instead. Problem solved.Can I mentally picture my character as attractive and just not mention it in your presence?
I have to admit I'd rather just find another table to play at under those conditions. You're a kinder man than I, sir.
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Hell, in our society you can BUY being conventionally attractive. I'm sure you can do it in a society with magic.
For that matter, if charisma was all about looks wouldn't shapeshifting have some effect on your charisma? As it is there's none, even if you go something like shift from a +2 Charisma gnome to a -4 Charisma Duergar.
I have to admit I'd rather just find another table to play at under those conditions. You're a kinder man than I, sir.Precisely. So, if your appearance is important to you, dump int or wis instead. Problem solved.Can I mentally picture my character as attractive and just not mention it in your presence?
Considering that the only situation this becomes a conflict is when someone wants to play one of the aforementioned a*!$%+# supermodels, I am grateful to you for such a decision.
By the way, you are all welcome to tell me where is says anything like "charisma is the AVERAGE of your appearance and personal magnetism".
Precisely. So, if your appearance is important to you, dump int or wis instead. Problem solved.
Show me how to make a 15 point buy monk who excels at combat maneuvers, Is able to contribute effectively to the party and is also physically attractive under those conditions.
The problem that many have is that if charisma = beauty then some character concepts will always be physically unattractive. You just can't make them work otherwise. Even for classes that have a bit more wiggle room on their stats (lets say fighter) you're suggesting dumping a stat that has actual mechanical value (higher will saves or some skill points to play with) for an effect that has absolutely zero mechanical effect (attractiveness) unless the DM wants it to. That hardly seems like a fair trade.
Just let them have their hotness.
- Torger
It isn't their hotness I mind. It is their gangrenous personalities, backed up by unmotivated reasoning like "since charisma is the average of appearance and personality, and I dumped it to 7, I can get away with a -4 in personality if I take an 18 appearance". Then they behave like s$$& and try to claim that they are just playing their character.
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It isn't their hotness I mind. It is their gangrenous personalities, backed up by unmotivated reasoning like "since charisma is the average of appearance and personality, and I dumped it to 7, I can get away with a -4 in personality if I take an 18 appearance". Then they behave like s%#% and try to claim that they are just playing their character.
Which sounds to me like an excellent argument for excising appearance from the charisma equation entirely.
If you definitively state charisma has zero bearing on appearance and they still act like total asshats then you've determined that it wasn't an attempt to "balance the numbers" but rather that they just want to act like asshats. In which case you've got a toxic group.
- Torger
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Where's that damn horse when you need it.
Sorry buddy, There is a whole lot of threads that need my attention
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It isn't their hotness I mind. It is their gangrenous personalities, backed up by unmotivated reasoning like "since charisma is the average of appearance and personality, and I dumped it to 7, I can get away with a -4 in personality if I take an 18 appearance". Then they behave like s+%$ and try to claim that they are just playing their character.
Oh yeah that's annoying. The old "I have a 7 cha therefore I have to burp and fart at every dinner table and I'm dirty and eat with my hands. I also shout at people and am a total dick as a person." I could certainly do without that ever again.
Torger: My suggestion above acheives the same end: Count charisma as the higher of appearance and personality. They dump to 7, they get up to 7 in both. The 18 charisma bard can have either at 18 and the other anywhere on the stat span. If they choose to play personality -4, they do so because they want to play a*~%!&&s, and for no other reason. The power gamers should be happy: They get far more points to their name my way.
Your argument about how certain character concepts need to be ugly if charisma = beauty is what I call a feature, not a bug. You could just as well say that it's a problem that a wizard can't be smart, effective as a spellcaster, take some serious combat whoop-ass and live, agile enough to dodge some blows, strong enough to act reasonably in melee, have reasonable resistance to mind-affecting effects, and also be gorgeous, when using 10 point buy. Nature of the beast, you know, point buy puts tradeoffs into the game. If charisma is such a dump stat for everyone but charisma casters and face characters (max needed in a group = 1) then excise it completely from the game and replace it with a feat. Charisma casting goes on wisdom, skills connect to int or wis, and so on. It wouldn't be that much of a headache to be honest. Then cut the point buy values by one sixth. Voila, everyone gets to play a supermodel.
I'm really glad there's no charisma stat in my system.
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Torger: My suggestion above acheives the same end: Count charisma as the higher of appearance and personality. They dump to 7, they get up to 7 in both. The 18 charisma bard can have either at 18 and the other anywhere on the stat span. If they choose to play personality -4, they do so because they want to play a#*&+&!s, and for no other reason. The power gamers should be happy: They get far more points to their name my way.
Your argument about how certain character concepts need to be ugly if charisma = beauty is what I call a feature, not a bug. You could just as well say that it's a problem that a wizard can't be smart, effective as a spellcaster, take some serious combat whoop-ass and live, agile enough to dodge some blows, strong enough to act reasonably in melee, have reasonable resistance to mind-affecting effects, and also be gorgeous, when using 10 point buy. Nature of the beast, you know, point buy puts tradeoffs into the game. If charisma is such a dump stat for everyone but charisma casters and face characters (max needed in a group = 1) then excise it completely from the game and replace it with a feat. Charisma casting goes on wisdom, skills connect to int or wis, and so on. It wouldn't be that much of a headache to be honest. Then cut the point buy values by one sixth. Voila, everyone gets to play a supermodel.
The difference between all of those things and appearance is all of those thing actually MATTER game-wise.
Why you should be so adamant about refusing to let players describe their characters as they wish is beyond me. It just sounds like petty backlash because you had to deal with some a$*!++$s a few times and instead of dealing with the root problem (the a!+*&+~s) you came up with a "solution".
Rynjin? A *FEW* times??? Seriously, EVERY SINGLE TIME someone dumps charisma to 7, I wait for their description of their character to contain something like "my character is incredibly gorgeous, but sadly has no personal skills, is never nice and yadda yadda". I have yet to be surprised by its non-appearance.
Check my aliases, if you like. Farrukh is probably my favorite so far.
There is a reason why Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are the physical stats and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are the mental stats.
Needing to justify physical appearance with Charisma would be like basing your character's intellect off your Dexterity.
I don't understand why Charisma should have any influence on appearance at all, personally.
Blah. I run it simply as the highest of beauty and personal magnetism. No more a!&*+~& supermodels who dumped charisma through the basement. The lack of those can only ever improve the game.By making the game less realistic? Are you really more likely to follow *random model* into the crucible of war then an ugly sergeant who can command just by shouting insults on top of orders?
Be honest. You hate dump stats. Which is silly, because there is no game benefit for being attractive. So why does it matter?
this is the same game where bat s$%# gets turned into fireballs and elves walk down the street and may or may not say hi to you as you pass by. Realism shouldn't be the basis of your argument.
Rynjin? A *FEW* times??? Seriously, EVERY SINGLE TIME someone dumps charisma to 7, I wait for their description of their character to contain something like "my character is incredibly gorgeous, but sadly has no personal skills, is never nice and yadda yadda". I have yet to be surprised by its non-appearance.
it's because of this that I don't decouple appearance from charisma completely.