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So, I have discovered that I really like messing around with different dragon builds, and I really like incorporating them into my NPCs.
I once had a Gandalf and a Saurumon duo of NPCs. They are both silver dragons who assume human form and look like wise old men.
I have a bronze dragon who assumes the role of an old man and plays the role of the Dumbledore figure and is the headmaster of the wizard school of my world.
I have a gold dragon who assumes the role of a warrior priestess of a high god who is like a super hero figure.
I have also in the past used a travelling gnome character whose job it was to recruit and help find adventurers. But I thought to myself "man it would be cool if he was another dragon, and they were all in cahoots with each other." He would be a perfect copper.
Then I realized that coppers don't get Change Shape.
I also like the idea of let's say a blue dragon assuming human form to fight, then half way through the fight he transforms into his dragon form. Awesome right? None of the chromatic dragons seem to get Change Shape (Su).
Naturally I can DM magic it to suit my needs, but am I going overboard with these ideas?
yeah go for it! I'd attach it to a mechanic, like when dragons reach CR 6 they gain change shape and also make it a DC 15 knowledge check that all dragons on your world can appear as all sorts of creatures.
Sure, go ahead. :)
yeah go for it! I'd attach it to a mechanic, like when dragons reach CR 6 they gain change shape and also make it a DC 15 knowledge check that all dragons on your world can appear as all sorts of creatures.
Agreed, both with the general ability to change shape, and the suggested mechanic. I would also allow chromatics to change shape, making them even bigger BBEGs than they are, as well as allowing them to manipulate things while out of the line of fire. (It seems to be implied that at least 1 red dragon has/had that ability in Golarion - Choraal the Conqueror, uniter of Brevoy. I've been GMing Kingmaker.)
The problem I see with this is that it makes all the dragons more similar. One of the traditional problems with D&D dragons as used is that, aside from their breath weapons and their good/evil alignment, I've never seen them played as anything other than interchangeable evil dragon #16.
Oh, interchangeable evil dragon #31 breathes steam. Ho-hum.
Given that your interchangeable good dragons #1 and #2 are already pretending to be humanoids, why do you need to make interchangeable good dragon #3 do the same thing?
yeah go for it! I'd attach it to a mechanic, like when dragons reach CR 6 they gain change shape and also make it a DC 15 knowledge check that all dragons on your world can appear as all sorts of creatures.Agreed, both with the general ability to change shape, and the suggested mechanic. I would also allow chromatics to change shape, making them even bigger BBEGs than they are, as well as allowing them to manipulate things while out of the line of fire. (It seems to be implied that at least 1 red dragon has/had that ability in Golarion - Choraal the Conqueror, uniter of Brevoy. I've been GMing Kingmaker.)
I see him using Red dragons, but nothing about him being one...
The problem I see with this is that it makes all the dragons more similar. One of the traditional problems with D&D dragons as used is that, aside from their breath weapons and their good/evil alignment, I've never seen them played as anything other than interchangeable evil dragon #16.
Oh, interchangeable evil dragon #31 breathes steam. Ho-hum.
Given that your interchangeable good dragons #1 and #2 are already pretending to be humanoids, why do you need to make interchangeable good dragon #3 do the same thing?
They actually do different things and serve different roles in the story.
Bronze dragon is actually a sage blooded sorcerer as well and has a super high INT, is head of the wizard school, and assists players when they need to do research or studying. Very different from the silvers who crusade against the ultimate evil which is very much a full time thing for them, or the gold who oversees the protection of the world as a whole.
Copper would be a traveling 'bard' who gives hints, trades useful magic items, and can give general knowledge about different places.
Dragons can be very different if you play them differently.
Dragons can be very different if you play them differently.
They can be.
But I'd be worried that when you pull the big reveal that "the bard is REALLY a dragon," they'll be like.... "Again? Been there, done that, thought it was an overused trope THEN...."
At what point are they going to start talking about the "campaign where all the important NPCs are dragons"?
Dragons can be very different if you play them differently.They can be.
But I'd be worried that when you pull the big reveal that "the bard is REALLY a dragon," they'll be like.... "Again? Been there, done that, thought it was an overused trope THEN...."
At what point are they going to start talking about the "campaign where all the important NPCs are dragons"?
My players are more likely to go "okay, we've met the silver, gold, and bronze dragons, where are the copper and brass?"
Not that I don't understand where you guys are coming from.
Dragons can be very different if you play them differently.They can be.
But I'd be worried that when you pull the big reveal that "the bard is REALLY a dragon," they'll be like.... "Again? Been there, done that, thought it was an overused trope THEN...."
At what point are they going to start talking about the "campaign where all the important NPCs are dragons"?
To be fair, that's not a bad idea for a campaign in of itself, provided that's what you're going for. I imagine there'd be a market for 'dragon illuminati' games where the players uncover some kind of grand dragon conspiracy behind humanoid culture. It would just require good execution and clear distinction between the dragons, including expanding upon their basic personalities (Brass are chatty, Reds are vicious, etc).
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Blasphemy! Burn Him!
Which god, exactly, are you trash-talking?
Whichever one wrote the Bestiary and didn't include those abilities.
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So Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer) or James Jacobs (Editor-in-Chief)? Wasn't aware either of them had passed the test of the starstone. I should send a congratulatory gift basket / ritual sacrifice.
I don't think either of them would smite you for giving all dragons the Change Shape ability, though. That's why Rule 0 exists.
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There's no need to make a general rule. If you want a particular dragon to have the power, just give it. I don't give it to all dragons, just those few smart, powerful enough, and subtle enough to merit it. Keeps it special if not every single dragon has it.
Or those with a bit of mixed blood. That seems like a good enough excuse to randomly give one the ability to change shape.
It is a good enough excuse for sorcerers to start shooting fireballs at least. Just rely on the old wibbly wobbly magic-y stuff that happens when scaly libido goes unchecked. A gold or silver tinge on your bronze dragon might look quite dashing, really.
But anyway, I just want discuss the possible reasons (or at least implications) on why some dragons have change shape. Of the metallic dragons, only gold and silver seem to have this power. And this seems somewhat fitting, since they stand as something of the moral pillars of the metallic dragons, and as such are the most likely to advise humans at crucial moments. The fact that only metallic dragons have this power at all seems interesting, since it implies or encourages an interest in humanoid affairs.
While I cannot speak on copper or bronze, brass dragons do not seem like they necessarily miss out due to their lack of change shape, since they are the most gregarious of the lot, and as such they are skilled at interactions even when they are 10x the other parties' size.
The fact that chromatic dragons cannot change shape may be due to their lack of interest in human affairs (or might be the cause of it). So thematically, it is usually appropriate to not give them that power.
Except for Blues. Those sneaky buggers seem like they would revel in that power. They have the interest in humanoid societies, and a desire to get right in there to control them. So that is fine thematically, I suppose. The rest are usually to beastial for anything more than stomping in big and in charge and just telling mortals what to do. Greens are slightly better (they can be negotiated with, and they have a sense of discipline)... but they have a certain 'nature' theme going on it seems, so them being bestial seems appropriate.
I think lemeres offered sound advice.
Keep in mind that dragons are powerful creatures, who probably view humans as a mix between children and pets (if benign) or as tasty morsels or pests (if the dragon is evil), but surely not as equals. Why would a chromatic dragon want to look like a puny human and give up most of his power? Dragons are powerful, magical, intelligent (well, most of them) beings, whose powers can be read as an expression of their wills and desires. Chromatic dragons have in my opinion the mindset of a bully, used to get their will no matter what. For a chromatic dragon to even wanting to change his shape into a lesser being, there should be a powerful motivation, most certainly one to drive a whole story or even a campaign.
Imagine a chromatic dragon who witnessed his mother being killed by a hero wielding a dragonslaying sword, perhaps he escaped narrowly after being harmed himself. Now, he has a desire for revenge, of course, but after that experience, he is loathe to confront that hero directly. So, he has to gather information, and learns that the hero has become the first champion of a nearby kingdom. So he plans his revenge not only on that hero, but instead wants to take down the entire kingdom. If he just uses standard dragon tactics (burn and destroy), the kingdoms hero will come looking for him. So he decides instead to go to the humans to learn about them and their weaknesses. To accomplish this, he needs to change his form, and perhaps to hide his alignment. There, you have a motivation for a chromatic dragon to change his shape and a hook for a story. And if done right, a great recurring villain.
Imagine a chromatic dragon who witnessed his mother being killed by a hero wielding a dragonslaying sword, perhaps he escaped narrowly after being harmed himself. Now, he has a desire for revenge, of course, but after that experience, he is loathe to confront that hero directly. So, he has to gather information, and learns that the hero has become the first champion of a nearby kingdom. So he plans his revenge not only on that hero, but instead wants to take down the entire kingdom. If he just uses standard dragon tactics (burn and destroy), the kingdoms hero will come looking for him. So he decides instead to go to the humans to learn about them and their weaknesses. To accomplish this, he needs to change his form, and perhaps to hide his alignment. There, you have a motivation for a chromatic dragon to change his shape and a hook for a story. And if done right, a great recurring villain.
Elves and dwarves should serve well for the 'hero' role there, since their life spans are on the scale where you can see revenge plots that cover the growth of a wyrmling into and adult.
Also, it is has a nice air for a revenge plot that spans hundreds of years, and and for a king to find that his kingdom is burning due to some petty conflict that happened generations ago.
Plus, it has a 'dish best served cold' vibe when you have seen the rise and fall of kingdoms in the preparation for a single act of revenge. Imagine how it would feel if each and every surrounding ruler only got onto the throne because they agree to gang up and crush one man and everyone around him.
Bronze actually have it, the only metallics that don't are copper and brass.
I know copper to be tricksters and comedians, but I do not know much about the personalities of brass dragons.
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You could allow dragons to swap out one of their (at will) spell-like abilities of the same(-ish) spell-level for polymorph (possibly using the retraining rules as if it were a racial trait): insect plague for black, veil for blue, control winds for brass, transmute rock/mud for copper, dominate person for green, and either wall of fire or find the path (depending on how strict you want to be) for red. Note that white dragons, instead of polymorph, could swap out wall of ice for beast shape II (i.e., polar bear) or elemental body I (ice elemental; not strictly RAW, but I'd allow it); or even monstrous physique II (to turn into a yeti).
Alternately, if you want the dragon focused on common humanoid shapes (and to make shape-shifting dragons more prevalent), you could let them swap out a spell-like ability for alter self: darkness for black, minor image for blue, endure elements or suggestion for brass, hideous laughter for copper, charm person or suggestion for green, pyrotechnics for red, and gust of wind for white.
Imagine a chromatic dragon who witnessed his mother being killed by a hero wielding a dragonslaying sword, perhaps he escaped narrowly after being harmed himself. Now, he has a desire for revenge, of course, but after that experience, he is loathe to confront that hero directly. So, he has to gather information, and learns that the hero has become the first champion of a nearby kingdom. So he plans his revenge not only on that hero, but instead wants to take down the entire kingdom. If he just uses standard dragon tactics (burn and destroy), the kingdoms hero will come looking for him. So he decides instead to go to the humans to learn about them and their weaknesses. To accomplish this, he needs to change his form, and perhaps to hide his alignment. There, you have a motivation for a chromatic dragon to change his shape and a hook for a story. And if done right, a great recurring villain.Elves and dwarves should serve well for the 'hero' role there, since their life spans are on the scale where you can see revenge plots that cover the growth of a wyrmling into and adult.
Also, it is has a nice air for a revenge plot that spans hundreds of years, and and for a king to find that his kingdom is burning due to some petty conflict that happened generations ago.
Plus, it has a 'dish best served cold' vibe when you have seen the rise and fall of kingdoms in the preparation for a single act of revenge. Imagine how it would feel if each and every surrounding ruler only got onto the throne because they agree to gang up and crush one man and everyone around him.
Some nice ideas there. It could work with a human hero, if said hero was perhaps the founder of this kingdom, and the sword the treasured heirloom of the royal house. Of course, having the hero still alive when the revenge comes is much more sweet, and the sting felt much sharper, if he is just the hero, not the king, so one mans act doomed a whole nation.
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There are reasons why only some dragons are given Change Shape, and they're fine reasons. That doesn't mean that you can't change it if it doesn't fit what you're trying to do. The Eberron setting for example has more distant gods who don't strip the powers of hypocritical priests, so it removed the rule requiring clerics to be of similar alignment to their deities.
If you think all dragons at least have the potential to be interested in manipulating human affairs, then let them all shapeshift - even if not all of them actually use that power.
This idea does not offend the Goddess.
This idea does not offend the Goddess.
It offends Dahak though. It is blaphemy to turn his favorite prey into mere squishy humans. He wants to to fly majestically so that he can shoot them out of the air.
Thinking about setting religion, that could be an interesting distinction for change shape-chromatic dragons originate from...a rather complicated backstory. Lets just leave it for the end bit- Tiamat healed some metallic dragons as part of a deal to save Dahak, but they became corrupted.
That, plus the fact that the backstory characterizes Tiamat and Apsu as water could be used thematically. You could make it so that metallic dragons are closer to these mythical origins, retaining a trace of their malleable nature, while the ancestors of chromatic dragons have just gone through way too much to do that anymore.
The last color coded Dragon I used was in 1976. In game silliness turned me off toward such and I have never looked back. I also curtailed ever bigger Dragons after reading 'Duncan and Mallory' late one night. It really cut down on tactics designed to counter big targets. It does rattle new players, but they soon leave me nasty advice on how to use Dragons better in their next appearance. Dang these new players improving my game.
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Main issues with swapping out SLAs is that there are special rules when it comes to Polymorph (the spell) and spells of the Polymorph subschool, where Change Shape (Su) has specific rules attached to it that allow dragons to assume forms more than one size category different from their own size.
Fun fact: tonight I discovered that 5th edition metallic dragons all have this ability, meaning I have something in print as precedent to use to just add this ability on.
You could also give the Copper an item or have him learn an appropriate spell (alter self is a bard and sorc spell after all).
Heck I already play it that way. I don't use dragons much, but when I have, I've granted it to them. Otherwise it is very difficult to incorporate a dragon into the plot in more than *one* way.
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I like the idea of a Great Wyrm Red posing as a little human child...
Give them some ability to fool even True Seeing and it gets REALLY fun.
I say go for it, it's your game.
Making changes to monsters reduces metagaming and encourages ingame Knowledge skills, I often change monsters in my campaigns...