Maximizing Reach and lowering MAD for a Controller Martial


Advice


Just something I'm toying around with for the moment.

I like the idea of a martial character oriented around combat maneuvers to do battlefield control with great reach, combat reflexes, and the combat feats to pull it off.

I figure for the concept it requires a) a reach weapon, preferably trip and/or disarm type, b) lunge feat, c) four levels of aberrant bloodrager for the increased reach, d) access to enlarge person, preferably as a swift or shorter action - which IIRC bloodrager can provide. This gives about 25', which is respectable. If we could work in Whirlwind Attack that would be even cooler!

A small snag is that our GM uses 15-pt buy. This is a potentially MAD build, though, as Combat Expertise requires 13int, Combat Reflexes requires as much Dex as possible, and Bloodrager is a Str/Con based class...especially Str for pulling off combat maneuvers...and using it to access spells will need a modicum of Cha as well. Seems hard to be exceptional at anything with that combo :-/

I could go with swashbuckler dipping to use cha for combat expertise, but most of its other benefits are wasted...or preferably a brawler to ignore the prerequisite int altogether and get martial flexibility.

I don't like wasting abilities, so an archetype that trades out unarmed strike for something more useful would be nice.

Also, any other means of extending reach I might not have thought of would be nice...classes, items, feats, etc...but very preferably full BAB so as not to lower potential CMB. Also, the person this is aimed for does not like casters, so minimal spellcasting would be nice.

Let's say this would be about 10th level. How would you pull it off?

My first thought, just spitballing, is like brawler2/bloodrager4/fighter6 for maximum feat access, but I'm sure this can be done better.


have you considered manuever master/ lore warden builds?

reach cleric with growth domain?


Bloodrager can work for this, but I think you are underestimating reach and overestimating feats.

I would probably go with a Bloodrager (Abyssal), or someone with the Plant (Growth) domain. You said a martial so I assume you want a Bloodrager instead of a Cleric or Druid.

Long Arm will give you 5 ft of reach. Enlarging when you rage as a free action will give you 10 ft more. Lunge is 5 ft more, but only on your turn. Pushing Assault will keep people away and it works with reach unlike Stand Still.

Getting your strength up will do as much as the maneuver feats in terms of CMB and most trip builds rely on being adjacent. Not to say you should ignore maneuvers, just that your reach makes you immune to the AoOs that come with the lack of said feats.

Having a bite attack is nice to fill in the gap left by your polearm, but not totally needed. All you really need is rage to make up the strength hit you take in 15 point buy. Should be totally doable, if you can reliably enlarge yourself.

Silver Crusade

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You can also do something similar in a much simpler, less feat-intensive, less MAD way:

* Forget about the Combat Expertise feat chain, and just do your maneuvers at reach. Far less MAD.
* Stack things that increase your CMB. For example, ride a mount with reach and both take Paired Opportunists. This gives a flat +5 to CMB for most AoOs. That's +4 for Paired Opportunist and +1 for Higher Ground. Alternately, the mount can trip, giving the PC damaging attacks against prone foes.
* Cleric with the Growth Domain is perfect for what you want to do. Level one Divine Favor (with Fate's Favored) gives another +2 to your CMB.
* Longarm spell gets you a reach benefit

My mounted Fighter/Cleric uses this approach. The mount generally trips, as the rider inflicts 2x more damage than the mount. At 7th level this PC commonly gets about +23 to hit on AoOs. That's +5 from Bab, +3 from Strength, -2 from Power Attack, +2 from a magic weapon, +6 from assorted Cleric buffs, +4 from Paired Opportunists, +1 from Higher Ground, and effective +4 from prone target. This PC makes an awesome Pathfinder Tank.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

You can also do something similar in a much simpler, less feat-intensive, less MAD way:

* Forget about the Combat Expertise feat chain, and just do your maneuvers at reach. Far less MAD.
* Stack things that increase your CMB. For example, ride a mount with reach and both take Paired Opportunists. This gives a flat +5 to CMB for most AoOs. That's +4 for Paired Opportunist and +1 for Higher Ground. Alternately, the mount can trip, giving the PC damaging attacks against prone foes.
* Cleric with the Growth Domain is perfect for what you want to do. Level one Divine Favor (with Fate's Favored) gives another +2 to your CMB.
* Longarm spell gets you a reach benefit

My mounted Fighter/Cleric uses this approach. The mount generally trips, as the rider inflicts 2x more damage than the mount. At 7th level this PC commonly gets about +23 to hit on AoOs. That's +5 from Bab, +3 from Strength, -2 from Power Attack, +2 from a magic weapon, +6 from assorted Cleric buffs, +4 from Paired Opportunists, +1 from Higher Ground, and effective +4 from prone target. This PC makes an awesome Pathfinder Tank.

Wow. If your mount picks up Greater Trip so foes provoke an AoO when they fall, that build will be devastating.


If you just want combat manoeuvre feats w/o getting Combat Expertise, you could simply take the Blood Conduit Bloodrager archetype?

You give up Fast Movement for a pre-req free man. feat, and you add a lot of them to your bloodline bonus feats. In addition, depending on whether or not you want the 1st level bloodline power, you could trade it out for a bloodline familiar and have it apply oils of Enlarge Person to you during its turn (make sure to pick something that is capable of applying/grabbing stuff) - I mean, it costs 50 gp for each and as such stings a bit at low levels, but in comparison to what you gain (especially action economy-wise!) it might very well be worth it - especially if you are planning on grabbing 4 levels of Bloodrager anyway.

Grand Lodge

Whip using with Dex as your primary stat (via weapon finesse and slashing grace)

I would suggest Kensai Magus to narrow you down to Dex and Int (with some Con and Wis for the saves)

Looking at level 7, I can guesstimate a +20 to disarm/trip. Break down is +7 from level/BaB, +5 from Dex, +4 weapon, +2 from item(dusty rose prism ioun stone in wayfinder), +1 Weapon Focus. (Ok it is 19 trip, 21 disarm due to whip property, and a -2 any turn you spell combat)

A one level dip in wizard would be able to net you a +3-4. Knowledge is Power, 18-20 INT. Lose 1 for lower magus level, add back in 4-5 points for INT.


Well, I just realized that I failed basic first grade math with my example layout. It should be four levels of fighter, not six, to actually add up to ten.

@Bran - No reach cleric as I specified minimum casting, maximum BAB. Maneuver Master doesn't really mix with reach weapons, I believe...but Lore Warden could work for the fighter archetype to sprinkle in.

@Gregory - why another suggestion for growth domain? It doesn't stack with enlarge person, right? And requires medium BAB. Seems counterintuitive, but if I'm wrong please explain why. Wouldn't spiked gauntlets work just as well as a bite attack for close attacks? And be cheaper to enchant? Also, I believe enlarge only adds 5', not 10. I didn't know about Long Arm though. Thanks.

@Magda - Same question about growth domain as earlier. Also, this campaign has not been mounted friendly. Lots of changes in scenery, some underwater, some dungeons, some ship travel, some jungle, etc. It's not really a reliable enough thing to depend on. perhaps I should've mentioned that earlier.


I remember my lookin into this a bit back. My idea for it was a war sighted battle mystery. The key was to grab a weapon with reach and trip (reasonable) and then you could swap your tactics pretty easy depending on what was better at the time. Getting weapon focus, improved crit, an such for free is nice as well. You even get enlarge person as a bonus spell at level 2 :)

The stats are the tricky part. My array would depend on what race I chose and whether or not I want more than one AoO per round. I personally chose to go with half orc for the increase to saves and then not go combat reflexes. Sometimes no matter what you so you will not have a chance to get a second AoO.


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@OP The growth subdomain power lets you Enlarge as a swift action, and both Clerics and Druids can be optimized for melee as well as a full BAB class. The idea is to be able to enlarge yourself as quickly and reliably as possible and the only faster way is Abyssal Bloodrager.

Large size reach weapons threaten the squares 15-20 ft away but not those 5-10 ft away. The reason bites (or any other attack that doesn't use your hands) are better than spiked gauntlets is because you can threaten the 5-10 ft area without taking a hand off the polearm. This isn't a concern if your build is something like whip & klar, but it is with the two handed reach weapons that heavy hitters use. As a side benefit for an abyssal bloodrager you can now claw/claw/bite if someone without DR gets up in your face (though you have to drop your weapon.)


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Maneuver Master doesn't really mix with reach weapons, I believe...

Why not? You get free Improved Trip without needing prerequisites, and you can throw a free trip attack into any full attack, including one with a reach weapon. Maneuver Master even uses its level as BAB for maneuvers.

As far as Enlarge Person goes, a single level of Living Monolith can get you 3/day Enlarge Person as a swift action, caster level = character level. Mildly annoying prerequisites, but still...

Silver Crusade

Note about the Enlarge Person spell

Casting Time is a huge factor for Enlarge Person. Reach is most important at the start of combat, so it's the very first buff a reach weapon user cares about. He are three common ways to get this buff:

* Cast Enlarge Person as a spell. This spell has a 1 Round casting time, so it does not take effect until the start of your second round. By this point you have probably missed your best window to get AoOs. Also you can't take any AoOs while casting such a spell. You spend one round buffing and miss out on AoOs.

* Drink an Enlarge Person potion. Drinking the potion only takes a Standard Action, but getting the potion out usually requires a Move action. So usually Move & Standard & 5' step. At least it works immediately and you can take AoOs. You spend one round buffing.

* Cast Enlarge Person as a Swift action or faster. This is ideal. You are already big for your Round One action. If within ~30' of any foe this is likely a Full Attack. That's 5' step, 5' growth, and 20' reach.


Wait, where does it say large reach weapons go 15-20? Or did you mean large size combined with reach? Because that's 10-15.

If what you're saying is true, a tiefling with the oversized hands variant would be a good way to stack with that.

Perhaps a crossblooded abysmal/aberrant bloodrager would do nicely, giving swift action growth and permanent +5 reach...at level 12 at least.

Seems hard to juggle all this. I know you don't NEED combat maneuver feats with reach, but the bonuses to the effective CMB and the greater feat bonuses are nice, and it would be nice.

Seems like fitting in Whirlwind Attack will be impossible. Oh well, would've been nice.

Silver Crusade

Check out the Pathfinder Space, Reach, Threatened Space templates. A Large creature wielding an appropriate-sized reach weapon threatens at 15' and 20'. Per recent FAQ, medium-sized creatures with reach now always threaten diagonals, so the chart is out of date in that respect.

5th level reach Whirlwind Fighter:

I'm playing a CORE PFS Fighter who fights with a guisarme and will get Whirlwind Attack at 5th level. This guy plans to chug Enlarge Person potions. You are dealing with these feat-chains:
* Every reach warrior wants to start with Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. That's 2 feats. Stop with just those feats and you have an optimal fighting style for the rest of your career.
* 5-feat chain for Whirlwind Attack. Requires Int of 13+ & includes Combat Expertise, which is the feat tax for all the good Maneuver feats. 5 feats.
* You want Lunge (requires +6 BaB) to enhance your whirlwind attack. 1 feat.
* You really want Improved trip & Greater Trip (requires +6 BaB). 2 feats.

That adds up to 10 feats you would like to have on a mid-level whirlwind reach fighter. A 5th level human Fighter (as opposed to lowercase fighter meaning any martial) will have 7 feats. One can dip Monk, for one more discretionary feat. A single-classed Fighter can have all 10 feats at 9th level, just in time to near PFS retirement.

Thus, it's not possible to get all the desired feats as soon as one wants them. It's possible to get pretty close, though.

Posit a 5th level character. Take four levels of Fighter. Dip one level in any other class. This gets 7 total discretionary feats.

At 1st level take Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, so you always have those. At 5th level you complete the Whirlwind Attack sequence. It's not possible to get Whirlwind Attack before 5th level. By 7th level you can easily get Lunge or the Improved/Greater Trip sequence, but not both.

The one level dip can be anything. Fighter keeps you single-classed. Barbarian gets +1 BaB & raging whirlwind attacks, for maximum damage output. Sorcerer get access to Truestrike and Grease, which are awesome on a trip-capable PC. Bard gets ... well, Bard stuff. I'm dipping Bard for Grease, UMD, Bardsong, and because it fits the background story. If non-CORE were allowed then any dip that got Swift Action Enlarge Person would be ideal. Et cetera. Note that this one level dip does not delay getting Whirlwind Attack.

Usually I say don't even bother to threaten adjacent on a reach build. However, with Whirlwind Attack in the mix it becomes worth the effort. My guisarme-wielding Fighter/Bard will wear armor spikes, thus breaking my long tradition of refusing to threaten adjacent yet not observing the ill-effects people frequently worry about.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

Check out the Pathfinder Space, Reach, Threatened Space templates. A Large creature wielding an appropriate-sized reach weapon threatens at 15' and 20'. Per recent FAQ, medium-sized creatures with reach now always threaten diagonals, so the chart is out of date in that respect.

** spoiler omitted **...

So it seems, per that chart, that a reach weapon increases range by the tall version of that size's natural reach...

So, say you have a medium tiefling with the oversized hands variant to wield large weapons, with a large guisarme, they'd have a 15' threat range with that weapon? Or 10-15? Or 15-20? Kinda hard to understand.

And then if he enlarged to large, and thus the guisarme became huge, the reach is then 20? Or 15-20? Or 20-25?

I'm trying to figure out the base to go by, to later modify with long arm, lunge, and eventually the abyssal bloodrager fourth level power...but before I get into those shenanigans, I need to know the baselines it'd be working with.
-----
Oh, and to the person who suggested whip/slashing grace, I considered it to eliminate MAD, but it's seriously feat heavy. It requires weapon finesse, weapon focus, slashing grace, whip mastery, agile maneuvers, improved whip mastery, combat reflexes...just for baselines, not even counting combat maneuvers feats.

Silver Crusade

Size of the weapon does not matter. Only size of the wielder matters.

This is how people can legitimately wield a small-size longspear in one hand for a -2 penalty to hit, and still get reach. At first I thought this smelled of cheese, but later realized this explains how easy it is, in the real world, to wield spear & shield together. I've even done it, years ago ... The spear must be light and thin, though, not like a real battle spear, and it's rather clumsy. In other words, the spear was small sized and came with a -2 penalty.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

Size of the weapon does not matter. Only size of the wielder matters.

This is how people can legitimately wield a small-size longspear in one hand for a -2 penalty to hit, and still get reach. At first I thought this smelled of cheese, but later realized this explains how easy it is, in the real world, to wield spear & shield together. I've even done it, years ago ... The spear must be light and thin, though, not like a real battle spear, and it's rather clumsy. In other words, the spear was small sized and came with a -2 penalty.

Well, if my statement's correct, it still has small longspears increase reach by 5', as a small creature's natural reach is 5'.

I suppose I should add this as a rules question separate thread.

Silver Crusade

This issue has been thoroughly and completely explored in other threads. There's probably no need for another. What's your question?


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Seems hard to juggle all this. I know you don't NEED combat maneuver feats with reach, but the bonuses to the effective CMB and the greater feat bonuses are nice, and it would be nice.

It's not too bad if you focus your resources and choose classes carefully.

The Aberrant Bloodline reach bonus is really great, but a Bloodrager doesn't have nearly the resources that something like Maneuver Master 1/ Living Monolith 1/ Lore Warden does. Considering you're on a 15-point buy, trying to get the needed strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, and charisma is just painful. There's also the issue of lacking maneuver bonuses with a Bloodrager, where a Lore Warden is picking up a combat maneuver bonus plus weapon training plus gloves of dueling. Or for that matter, an Oracle of Battle can pick up Maneuver Mastery: Trip, use favored class bonus to add on a +50% bonus to BAB on top of it plus get the Improved and Greater feats quickly, and then use buff spells on top of that... while using the War Sight revelation to roll initiative 2-3 times.

The Exchange

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Dip 1 lv of brawler, you have improved unarmed strike and don't need 13 int to qualify for combat expertise and all those improved feats. You also get to threaten at 5 ft due to improved uarmed strike. Happy? Then be an abberant bloodrager with superstition for the rest of the levels.

Shadow Lodge

thegreenteagamer wrote:
Wait, where does it say large reach weapons go 15-20? Or did you mean large size combined with reach? Because that's 10-15.

Characters with reach weapons threaten at up to double their natural reach, but not within their natural reach. That means a large size character (natural reach 10ft) threatens up to 20ft, but not at 10ft or closer (or at 15-20ft).

Long Arm extends that to 15-25ft.


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Aaaaaannnnd this is why I didn't want to weigh in here.

Honestly, my gut reaction is "Don't do aberrant bloodline. Certainly don't try to pair it with Reach weapons" That extra 5' of reach is just complexity for the sake of complexity and is just asking for an argument with most DMs.

Without the extra 5' of reach it's easy. A quick google search will bring up templates straight from Paizo or the PFSRD. That's a brief and easy argument to win should one occur.

"How does that extra 5' of reach work, and how does it interact with my medium sized Fauchard" is a much more lengthy argument. It'll likely become another argument once Enlarge Person is brought into play.

It doesn't matter whether the community has worked out the solution to one of these rules problems unless your DM is in on the joke. If your DM is not in on the joke then this'll be an argument.

Regular reach weapons control space just great. A small or medium character with a reach weapon controls ~25'x25' The space they occupy and the reach outside. Throw in a decent amount of attacks of opportunity, trip, and stand still and you've got a pretty nasty bit of terrain denial without any further help.

If you are insisting on the initially proposed build (Brawler 2/Bloodrager 4/Fighter X), perhaps consider the Temple Sword. Two Reasons:

1. It has the Trip property while being a decent weapon (halfway decent attack dice and crit range). With the extra 5' you'd control the same reach that a regular polearm user does while also controlling the "dead space" they encounter.

2. It's a Monk weapon and therefore Brawler's Flurry wouldn't go to waste. One more attack is nice and the second level of Brawler doesn't do a heck of a lot for you otherwise.

Further consideration:

Don't get too wrapped up with feats. Martial Flexibility is amazing. If you've got Combat Expertise and Power Attack then you've got just about every combat maneuver available to you on the fly. A Reach build lends itself well to Trip and Stand Still, but not everything can be tripped. Grab something else on the fly. Most casters hate being grappled, but it isn't necessarily worth having in the build as a hard coded feat. Times like that are when Martial Flexibility shines.

Definitely consider Lore Warden fighter. The flat boosts to CMB/CMD are extremely solid. I'd say just got Martial Master/Lore Warden Fighter and ignore Brawler entirely, but then Martial Flexibility doesn't come online until 5th level and I'm not sure what level you'll be starting at. I suppose it would also require a 13 INT, which is a bummer.

Perhaps consider Martial Master/Lore Warden Fighter and Brawler. The usage of Martial Flexibility should stack.

Shadow Lodge

ChainsawSam wrote:

Honestly, my gut reaction is "Don't do aberrant bloodline. Certainly don't try to pair it with Reach weapons" That extra 5' of reach is just complexity for the sake of complexity and is just asking for an argument with most DMs.

Without the extra 5' of reach it's easy. A quick google search will bring up templates straight from Paizo or the PFSRD. That's a brief and easy argument to win should one occur.

"How does that extra 5' of reach work, and how does it interact with my medium sized Fauchard" is a much more lengthy argument. It'll likely become another argument once Enlarge Person is brought into play.

It doesn't matter whether the community has worked out the solution to one of these rules problems unless your DM is in on the joke. If your DM is not in on the joke then this'll be an argument.

It doesn't have to be an argument. Some people are capable of having civil and interesting rules discussions with their GMs. :/


No, it's okay, I too am a part of the "unless you're the GM, it doesn't matter what we say" school. If this were more than in the brainstorming steps, I'd just ask the GM to clarify, but this is, at least at this point, more theoretical than anything. I don't wanna bug the GM with a bunch of questions about how he'd rule for a character I haven't even decided on yet.

To be honest, this is sounding more complex overall than I thought it would be, and I'm having second thoughts on this direction. If it were for me I think I could handle it, but the person I'm designing it for might need too much in-game work to keep up with.

Thanks all for the input. I'm thinking maybe back to the "pick a new concept" drawing board.

Silver Crusade

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How about just do the simple, basic, standard version? It's equally effective and no more MAD. The added complexity came when you started adding in things like Tieflings wielding inappropriately sized weapons while shape shifting. Absent that sort of needless complexity there's no issue. Like ChainsawSam said, just above.

The most effective way to maximize the value of reach is to have a good relationship with your allies that engenders effective cooperation. Particular tactics are of secondary importance. The details of your build hardly matter, compared to those factors.


Weirdo wrote:
ChainsawSam wrote:

Honestly, my gut reaction is "Don't do aberrant bloodline. Certainly don't try to pair it with Reach weapons" That extra 5' of reach is just complexity for the sake of complexity and is just asking for an argument with most DMs.

Without the extra 5' of reach it's easy. A quick google search will bring up templates straight from Paizo or the PFSRD. That's a brief and easy argument to win should one occur.

"How does that extra 5' of reach work, and how does it interact with my medium sized Fauchard" is a much more lengthy argument. It'll likely become another argument once Enlarge Person is brought into play.

It doesn't matter whether the community has worked out the solution to one of these rules problems unless your DM is in on the joke. If your DM is not in on the joke then this'll be an argument.

It doesn't have to be an argument. Some people are capable of having civil and interesting rules discussions with their GMs. :/

You've made a very common mistake. You have conflated the word "argument" with "fight" or "yelling match." I don't blame you because it is becoming the dominant form due to rampant misuse.

What you're calling a discussion is an argument. An argument is just a reason or list of reasons in an attempt to persuade someone to one side of thinking being correct or right.

I remember writing quite a few argumentative essays in school. Not a single one of them involved harsh language, yelling, or maternal insults.

The point is, it doesn't have to be a yelling match to be unpleasant. Every minute spent around a gaming table not gaming is a minute that sucks.


Also since you said "Maximixing" instead of, I want a good reach build for a 15 point buy. So you're going to get complex answers since that's usually how you'll achieve the "Maximized" effect. But getting a good and usable version isn't that bad. Also you went from just wanting reach to wanting to do a ton of maneuvers to the crazy reach scenarios.


thegreenteagamer wrote:

No, it's okay, I too am a part of the "unless you're the GM, it doesn't matter what we say" school. If this were more than in the brainstorming steps, I'd just ask the GM to clarify, but this is, at least at this point, more theoretical than anything. I don't wanna bug the GM with a bunch of questions about how he'd rule for a character I haven't even decided on yet.

To be honest, this is sounding more complex overall than I thought it would be, and I'm having second thoughts on this direction. If it were for me I think I could handle it, but the person I'm designing it for might need too much in-game work to keep up with.

Thanks all for the input. I'm thinking maybe back to the "pick a new concept" drawing board.

If the player you're building for is new or not particularly good with bookwork, then you might want to try something else.

Maneuver Feats suck. They're handy, but the system sort of forces you to pick one and that isn't really what people want when they think "maneuver guy."

The solution to this is Martial Flexibility which allows you to just grab them as you want them.

As cool as that ability is, I would not call it a "friendly" ability. It requires a fair amount of planning and paperwork to just keep track of what you do and don't qualify and quite a bit of system mastery to get the most out of it.

So, if the person is new or lacking system mastery or maybe just doesn't have a lot of time away from game for 'homework,' then perhaps "pick a new concept" might be best.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Also since you said "Maximixing" instead of, I want a good reach build for a 15 point buy. So you're going to get complex answers since that's usually how you'll achieve the "Maximized" effect. But getting a good and usable version isn't that bad. Also you went from just wanting reach to wanting to do a ton of maneuvers to the crazy reach scenarios.

This is true, and I expected it. The difference is between a complicated build and complicated execution. I was interested both in finding out the absolute best possible (for curiosity as to testing limits etc) and the best practical application (for this particular player).


Want to Maximize reach? Get a Whip.

Hits people 15 ft away. Hits people 5 ft away. And everything in between.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, don't give up the entire concept just because it can get complicated. Using a reach weapon and optionally an enlarge effect OR Long Arm is plenty for most purposes. Martial Flexibility is useful even if you just use it to swap out Improved and Greater maneuver feats. You can make it easier by looking up a few basic combinations of useful feats ahead of time and write them on index cards together with any stat modifications. (I had a friend do this for a weird 3rd party class that involved temporarily stealing other peoples' class features.)

ChainsawSam wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
ChainsawSam wrote:

Honestly, my gut reaction is "Don't do aberrant bloodline. Certainly don't try to pair it with Reach weapons" That extra 5' of reach is just complexity for the sake of complexity and is just asking for an argument with most DMs.

...
It doesn't matter whether the community has worked out the solution to one of these rules problems unless your DM is in on the joke. If your DM is not in on the joke then this'll be an argument.

It doesn't have to be an argument. Some people are capable of having civil and interesting rules discussions with their GMs. :/

You've made a very common mistake. You have conflated the word "argument" with "fight" or "yelling match." I don't blame you because it is becoming the dominant form due to rampant misuse.

What you're calling a discussion is an argument. An argument is just a reason or list of reasons in an attempt to persuade someone to one side of thinking being correct or right.

I remember writing quite a few argumentative essays in school. Not a single one of them involved harsh language, yelling, or maternal insults.

The point is, it doesn't have to be a yelling match to be unpleasant. Every minute spent around a gaming table not gaming is a minute that sucks.

If the argument is taking place at the gaming table the OP is doing it wrong. I always have my discussions/arguments about predictable rules issues between sessions or, if I anticipate it far enough ahead, during character generation. It did not occur to me that a reasonable person would show up to their first home game with a completed character sheet and then ask the GM how their build was going to work. Thus when you indicated that the argument would be unpleasant I naturally assumed you were using the word "argument" in the sense of a specifically angry discussion. As a linguist's kid, changing definitions are part of how language works and once something becomes the dominant use - it is the correct definition. Dictionaries are in the end descriptive of language, not prescriptive.

thegreenteagamer wrote:
No, it's okay, I too am a part of the "unless you're the GM, it doesn't matter what we say" school

In the end, yes, but that doesn't mean the forums can't help by providing the arguments* for and against.

*As formally defined: a set of reasons supporting a viewpoint.


2 levels manuever master....rest lore warden
get reach weapon ...have fun

spring loaded sheath with enlarge person potion + accelerated drinker trait ...get big and attack on same round or set up for multiple aoo with combat reflexes

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