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That being said, as has been mentioned, the 20th Level fighter is probably hosed without his gear due to poor will saves.
They'd be terrible against 20th level threats. Against 10th level ones? He'd be at risk, sure, but hardly "hosed," and frankly that'd be true for most 20th level characters that aren't divine casters. I mean, starting Wis 12, +4 from a tome, Iron Will and Improved Iron Will gives him an inherent +11 with a reroll. Save DCs for a 10th level wizard will be, what, low-mid 20s? That's hardly a forgone conclusion - and remember that the wizard will undoubtedly die first if the fighter has any way to make that happen...
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He turns and says "I'm not the real Dread Pirate Roberts."
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I don't know about all of your Fighters, but my 20th level Fighter is going to cast Dominate Person or Confusion before worrying about anything else.
Magical Tail for the win! (The main reason I'd play a Fighter is for the bonus feats to make it feasible.)
I've actually been debating how to make a Magical Tail build, I mostly play casters so I hadn't considered fighter. I may have to go make this now...
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I've actually been debating how to make a Magical Tail build, I mostly play casters so I hadn't considered fighter. I may have to go make this now...I don't know about all of your Fighters, but my 20th level Fighter is going to cast Dominate Person or Confusion before worrying about anything else.
Magical Tail for the win! (The main reason I'd play a Fighter is for the bonus feats to make it feasible.)
Fighter and Zen Archer both work well for Tail builds.
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That being said, as has been mentioned, the 20th Level fighter is probably hosed without his gear due to poor will saves.They'd be terrible against 20th level threats. Against 10th level ones? He'd be at risk, sure, but hardly "hosed," and frankly that'd be true for most 20th level characters that aren't divine casters. I mean, starting Wis 12, +4 from a tome, Iron Will and Improved Iron Will gives him an inherent +11 with a reroll. Save DCs for a 10th level wizard will be, what, low-mid 20s? That's hardly a forgone conclusion - and remember that the wizard will undoubtedly die first if the fighter has any way to make that happen...
Kitsune says Hi! At level 10 my save DC for enchantment effects is going to be around 26-28 for top level spells. He might save, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it - at 26, with a reroll, he has a 44% chance of saving; at 28, with the reroll, he has a 28% chance of saving. That's assuming a level 4 spell - if instead it's a Persistent Hideous Laughter, he has to make a slightly easier save but make it twice, an only gets a reroll on one of them.
That being said, as has been mentioned, the 20th Level fighter is probably hosed without his gear due to poor will saves.They'd be terrible against 20th level threats. Against 10th level ones? He'd be at risk, sure, but hardly "hosed," and frankly that'd be true for most 20th level characters that aren't divine casters. I mean, starting Wis 12, +4 from a tome, Iron Will and Improved Iron Will gives him an inherent +11 with a reroll. Save DCs for a 10th level wizard will be, what, low-mid 20s? That's hardly a forgone conclusion - and remember that the wizard will undoubtedly die first if the fighter has any way to make that happen...
I'm going to second this. At best, you're looking at a save around 23. Quite a few builds should have a bonus making it at worst a 50/50 plus your reroll with some racial abilities giving you spell resistance or further boosts. A couple traits here or there give a +1 to certain types of spells.
Honestly, for most fighter builds, if he doesn't have any weapons on him the biggest problem is going to be a lack of range. Either martial or spellcaster, they're going to be able to affect him at range and he won't be able to return the favor.
Man, this is why, like all of my magic items are just gonna be invisible magic tattoos (with mundane but superior invisible ink) from now on, all with hidden auras, sentience (special purpose: keep this guy alive) and the ability to counter-spell (via dispel magic anything that might try to erase them. :)
So more like Magic of Incarnum?
Nah - that was cool and all, but the only rules on magic item tattoos is that each takes up a pseudo-slot, and otherwise they're like wondrous items in terms of limits. (There are several examples, but none of those are definitive, and all diverge from each other.) Thus, I'd have everything covered... while naked.
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What if we assumed it's an Unbreakable fighter
At level 20 they are immune to mind-affecting effects
Still falls to a save or die by an optimized caster.
Also, does immunity to mind affecting include immunity to dazing? If not, then Dazing spell metamagic may make things difficult on him as well.
Nothing's immune to dazing; that's one of the problems with that metamagic feat.
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hah, yes it does. You're wearing the Emperor's New Clothes.
==Aelryinth
I fail to see how any ONE of those save IUS and Catch-Off Guard (the rarer of the four) makes a difference in this fight.Lunge would. It would allow the fighter to attack with an unarmed strike/manuever without risking an AoO, assuming the lower level party doesn't have reach weapons.
Step 1: Have the Rogue ready an action to hit him when he tries to attack.
Step 2: 5 ft. step forward as part of your attack when he does so.
Step 3: Repeat.
Step 3a: Watch the geared up Fighter or Barbarian or whatever pound him simultaneously. The Barbarian even has Pounce by this point!
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Step 1: Have the Rogue ready an action to hit him when he tries to attack.I fail to see how any ONE of those save IUS and Catch-Off Guard (the rarer of the four) makes a difference in this fight.Lunge would. It would allow the fighter to attack with an unarmed strike/manuever without risking an AoO, assuming the lower level party doesn't have reach weapons.
...that seems to presuppose knowledge of the fighter's build.
...that seems to presuppose knowledge of the fighter's build.Step 1: Have the Rogue ready an action to hit him when he tries to attack.I fail to see how any ONE of those save IUS and Catch-Off Guard (the rarer of the four) makes a difference in this fight.Lunge would. It would allow the fighter to attack with an unarmed strike/manuever without risking an AoO, assuming the lower level party doesn't have reach weapons.
Unless the 10th level party is dumb as a stump, the first time he Lunges it should be self evident what's going on.
Unless you had expected a Disarm build or even an Unarmed full attack to take out the whole party in one round, somehow?
Even then it doesn't take a whole lot of thought to go "Yeah, he's unarmed, he'll probably try to snatch a weapon. Whack him if he tries it."
Not like the Rogue has anything better to do.
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...that seems to presuppose knowledge of the fighter's build.Step 1: Have the Rogue ready an action to hit him when he tries to attack.I fail to see how any ONE of those save IUS and Catch-Off Guard (the rarer of the four) makes a difference in this fight.Lunge would. It would allow the fighter to attack with an unarmed strike/manuever without risking an AoO, assuming the lower level party doesn't have reach weapons.Unless the 10th level party is dumb as a stump, the first time he Lunges it should be self evident what's going on.
Unless you had expected a Disarm build or even an Unarmed full attack to take out the whole party in one round, somehow?
No, I had expected that after the first Lunge, the rogue doesn't have a weapon and the fighter does. And even readying an attack against a disarm seems odd, inasmuch as you'd be assuming you wouldn't get one anyway from the AoO.
You're missing that the Martial Master really is Schrodinger Fighter.
13 times a day. Tops. And in that case he's only changing 1 feat at a time. Hardly enough to make Schrodinger proud... (Although probably enough for this scenario).
How do all other Fighter archetypes fare? Because archetype or not, I'm pretty sure any 20th Wizard buld will still have their 9th level spells available. Some of them already in effect... Many of them more than enough to whip out the 10th level party... Or at very leas, safely escape.
You're missing that the Martial Master really is Schrodinger Fighter.13 times a day. Tops. And in that case he's only changing 1 feat at a time.
Remember, 20th level.
He can grab all 13 Feats at once as a Swift.
Remember, 20th level.He can grab all 13 Feats at once as a Swift.You're missing that the Martial Master really is Schrodinger Fighter.13 times a day. Tops. And in that case he's only changing 1 feat at a time.
Yes, he can... But, sadly...
At 5th level, the martial master can use a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat he doesn't possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The martial master must otherwise meet all the feat's prerequisites. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his fighter level.
The martial master can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice. If a combat feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that combat feat while using this ability count toward that feat's daily limit. At later levels, when he gains multiple feats through this ability, the martial master can use those feats to meet the prerequisites of other feats he gains with this ability. Doing so means he cannot replace a feat currently fulfilling another's prerequisite without also replacing those feats that require it. Each individual feat selected counts toward his daily uses of this ability.
At 9th level, a martial master can use this ability to gain the benefit of two combat feats at the same time. He can select one feat as a swift action or two feats as a move action. At 14th level, a martial master can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. He can select one feat as a free action, two feats as a swift action, or three feats as a move action. At 17th level, a martial master can use this ability to gain the benefit of one combat feat as an immediate action or three combat feats as a swift action. At 20th level, a martial master can use this ability to gain the benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action.
Now... Getting 13 feats means he can't use the ability anymore... Why? I have no idea. Because martials can't have nice things, I guess.
I know, I pushed for more uses and it not doing that during the Playtest and was repeatedly shouted down.
But it's only needed for this one combat, so the other uses aren't really relevant.
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I fail to see how any ONE of those save IUS and Catch-Off Guard (the rarer of the four) makes a difference in this fight.Lunge would. It would allow the fighter to attack with an unarmed strike/manuever without risking an AoO, assuming the lower level party doesn't have reach weapons.Step 1: Have the Rogue ready an action to hit him when he tries to attack.
Step 2: 5 ft. step forward as part of your attack when he does so.
Step 3: Repeat.
Step 3a: Watch the geared up Fighter or Barbarian or whatever pound him simultaneously. The Barbarian even has Pounce by this point!
You have chosen... poorly. Remember, the first thing the fighter is going to do is disarm the rogue. So, the fighter and barbarian are probably pulling their hair at this point. :)
I know, I pushed for more uses and it not doing that during the Playtest and was repeatedly shouted down.
But it's only needed for this one combat, so the other uses aren't really relevant.
Well, yeah... Assuming this is your first or last encounter for the day (The 20th level caster can still escape and/or end the encounter with 1 or 2 spells and still have plenty left for adventuring), or if you're fine being useless for the rest of the day... Which I suppose is a valid assumption, after all, if you wanted to be relevant at high level play, you wouldn't be playing a Fighter... XD
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The party of 10th levels had better be wearing locking gauntlets, that much is clear. It would be horrendously ignominious to die to a naked fighter with your own weapon. Downright embarrassing if the wizard perished to a really nice enchanted blade he personally made for the rogue, ranger or fighter.
Also chuckled at the 20th level unbreakable fighter: "The dominate it does nothing!" "Crush his mind, try again!" "Arrrrgh, no effect! AAAAHHH!"
Raucous pool party ensues.
As the fighter dices the wizard & brings swift death, he never blinks, not once.
The 10s can win if they know their enemy, otherwise it could really get out of hand.
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I'm picturing an ensemble cast movie. Jason Statham is all, "First of all, we're all wearing locking gauntlets."
Steve Buscemi: I ain't wearing no locking gauntlets. I like to be able to move my hands.
Jason S: We're all wearing them. You're wearing the fluffin' gauntlets.
Steve B: Don't talk to me like I'm a kindergartener.
Don Cheadle: He's right you, you know. Did you ever hear about Sir Jaraint the White Ox?
Steve B: Yeah, I heard of him. He got whacked, on the toilet, by a gang of half-orcs. A real loser, if you ask me.
Don Cheadle: Did you know that before he died, he disarmed one of their knives and killed two of them with it before he went down? He died, all right. They found his body floating in the lake, his fingers still wrapped around the neck of the party's sorcerer, the poor bastard.
Jason S: Locking gauntlets.
Steve B: Okay, okay. I'll wear the gauntlets. Maybe I should get a polearm, too?
Jason B: You're going to wield a polearm in a bathroom? With a polearm? Have you ever even assassinated anyone before?
Steve B: I don't have to listen to this! I'm a professional.
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20th level fighter is a Kitsune Martial Master with 8 feats into magical tail and quicken spell like ability. (9 feats)
She has Nature Soul and Animal Ally (for animal companion and Boon Companion (4 feats)
She has Greater improved initiative (and an initiative trait), and extra martial flexibility. (2 feats)
And she has Power Attack, Combat Expertise and Iron Will (3 feats, total of 20)
She also has +5 inherent bonuses to strength, dex, con, wisdom and charisma from Tomes, Wishes, and/or using UMD to activate scrolls of Planar Binding.
She's going to go first (roughly +10 initiative bonus)
She's going to cast Quickened Dominate on the party bruiser (which will have a DC of "don't even bother rolling")
She will sic her 20th level animal companion on the nearest caster.
She will activate Fleeting Glance and become invisible.
She will 5' step in a direction that puts her in a corner so she can't be flanked.
She will use Martial Flexibility with her move action to pick 3 combat feats tailored to defeating the ambushers.
Then, the ambushers have to deal with their own frontliner turning on them and the fact that some kind of awful beast just pounce-killed their wizard, Oh, and their target is now invisible.
The following round, our foxy fighter cleans up the survivors and then gets dressed.
@Doomed hero
That build seems to have too many non-combat feats.
Fighters only get bonus combat feats.
Plus I don't think you can use Eldritch Heritage for Wildblooded Bloodlines, but I may be wrong on that.
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When comparing to other martials, the Barbarian would pick up the nearest enemy and proceed to murder each of them with their teammate. Those rage powers are CLASSY.
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Plus I don't think you can use Eldritch Heritage for Wildblooded Bloodlines, but I may be wrong on that.
Plus I don't think you can use Eldritch Heritage for Wildblooded Bloodlines, but I may be wrong on that.
Then switch those two feats for Nature Soul and Animal Ally.
That actually saves a feat because you don't have to pick up Skill Focus.
I know this is supposed to be the "ha ha, fighters suck!" post, but a wizurd without any gear and no spells memorized will go down a HELL of a lot faster than the naked fighter.
So....HA HA, WIZURDS SUCK!
Why wouldn't he have his spells memorized, though? How does a Wizard reach 20th level without reaching the paranoia required to prepare their spells and cast half a dozen magical protections on himself as soon as he wakes up?
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Okay, why doesn't the fighter have a magical polearm and a hidden golem protecting him in his bathroom?
Shapechange requires as it's Focus (which means you sorcerers have to use it as well, a jade circlet worn on the head, occupying a spot that people would rather use for a stat enhancement band.Seriously why would any caster not have Shapechange if they could? It's so cool.Pretty much this. Nothing's more agonizing than hitting 17/18 and having to pick between Shapechange, Mage's Disjunction, and Time Stop.
?
Non-magical items don't take up item slots.
Non-magical items don't take up item slots.
Yeah but they FEEL like they should.
Okay, why doesn't the fighter have a magical polearm and a hidden golem protecting him in his bathroom?
Because removing your whole gear doesn't make you forget your prepared spells. The Wizard not having his spells prepared would be more akin to a Fighter waking up and forgetting to grab his sword (instead of removing it to bathe).
But again... The "bath" is not the point of the discussion.
Last time I checked, most PCs still had only one head. You physically can not wear more than one circlet at a time, regardless of slot issues.
Of course you can. One slightly above the other... Or one on top of the other.
Last time I checked, most PCs still had only one head. You physically can not wear more than one circlet at a time, regardless of slot issues.Shapechange requires as it's Focus (which means you sorcerers have to use it as well, a jade circlet worn on the head, occupying a spot that people would rather use for a stat enhancement band.Seriously why would any caster not have Shapechange if they could? It's so cool.Pretty much this. Nothing's more agonizing than hitting 17/18 and having to pick between Shapechange, Mage's Disjunction, and Time Stop.?
Non-magical items don't take up item slots.
I fail to see how a headband interferes with your ability to wear a circlet.
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Regardless
Ah, indeed. That too.
I fail to see how a headband interferes with your ability to wear a circlet.Last time I checked, most PCs still had only one head. You physically can not wear more than one circlet at a time, regardless of slot issues.Shapechange requires as it's Focus (which means you sorcerers have to use it as well, a jade circlet worn on the head, occupying a spot that people would rather use for a stat enhancement band.Seriously why would any caster not have Shapechange if they could? It's so cool.Pretty much this. Nothing's more agonizing than hitting 17/18 and having to pick between Shapechange, Mage's Disjunction, and Time Stop.?
Non-magical items don't take up item slots.
Especially as head and headband are two separate slots.
Regardless
Well, I presume you need to wear it, but I don't see anything specifying that it needs to be worn on the head...
Also, adding to the others in that it does not take up a slot.
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I know this is supposed to be the "ha ha, fighters suck!" post, but a wizurd without any gear and no spells memorized will go down a HELL of a lot faster than the naked fighter.
So....HA HA, WIZURDS SUCK!
Why wouldn't he have his spells memorized, though? How does a Wizard reach 20th level without reaching the paranoia required to prepare their spells and cast half a dozen magical protections on himself as soon as he wakes up?
The moment you start applying logic to this, we get to point out the 20th-level fighter would never be more than five feet from his gear and would have his allies thirty feet away on the other side of the silent image curtain the bard put up.
Dude, at 20th level, everyone who hates you has access to scry-and-die. Your neighbor with the dog who digs up your flowerbed? The dog is a Conjurer and the neighbor is a Diviner.
You are paranoid or you are dead.