Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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It's been stated by campaign management several times that always evil races, like drow and orcs, will never be playable. I also doubt half-drow will ever be legal, because in Golarion canon, drow don't really work like that.
Also, I don't really understand where you get "the evil of Pathfinders", considering evil alignments are banned in the campaign.
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Personally I think they would fit in perfectly with the evil of the pathfinders.What is up with all the "Evil of Pathfinders" post lately?
Her comment just made me chuckle.
Most newer players I encounter see nothing but stars when they're creating characters, and are quick to draft up Paladins and holy champions.
She's seeing it more for what the organization really represents: Tomb robbers doing the bidding of a secretive cabal of powerful individuals who use the notion of the Society as a front for personal gain.
Nothing wrong with either interpretation.
But, to answer the original question, the Decemvirate hates competition, so naturally evil races, such as Drow, Half-drow, Orcs, Gnolls, etc., will never be allowed.
Even the alternate racial rules for Elves and Half-elves that are "drow-like" are banned.
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I am curious. I believe Sasha is trying to see if writing some drow heritage into the character's back story without altering the character mechanically is allowable in PFS. I think this leads to a larger question regarding character back story in PFS. Specifically, what limitations, if any, exist on elements of character back story in PFS? How far can a character's back story go legally under PFS rules? I ask the community as I am not certain.
In my opinion, I think PCs should be allowed great latitude in crafting their character's back story as long as the character on paper is sound mechanically per PFS rules. As for Sasha's question, I think a half-elf with some sort of drow background would be fine if the character was otherwise mechanically sound. The only gray area, as highlighted by Andrew's comment, would be the character appearance. If Sasha's character looked like a drow, I see that as part of the back story bleeding into a mechanical effect and should not be allowed. But if Shahsa's character has maybe a tinge of drowness to her, I do not see that as something that would have a huge impact mechanically.
That being said, I should disclose that all of my PFS characters are secretly aspects of Aroden awaiting to be reinstated to godhood. Everyone is cool with that right?
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That being said, I should disclose that all of my PFS characters are secretly aspects of Aroden awaiting to be reinstated to godhood. Everyone is cool with that right?
There can be only one! Starts hunting down Wicked Brew's characters in the hope that once all of the aspects have been reunited in one host, it will result as being reborn as the Lord of Murde... er, Last Azlanti.
Why yes, I have been playing back through Baldur's Gate recently, why do you ask? :)
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I am new to PFS so pardon me if this is covered somewhere.
Will Drow or Half-Elf Drow ever be a playable race in PFS? I have looked around and couldn't find any discussions but like I said I am new.
As I really liked my character storyline I Decided that I would just make a half-elf with the story-line of being 1/2 drow. So my charachter plays 100% like a 1/2 elf with no added abilities.
Well I have already gotten push-back. Apparently drow can never exist as PFS charachters as they are super evil. Personally I think they would fit in perfectly with the evil of the pathfinders.
I don't have access to home campaigns and my only play is in PFS so I was just wondering if there is any chance of playing my drow character or should I just tear it up.
I suppose your character could claim to have some drow ancestry, and the rest of the party could decide whether to believe you. Like, "I'm totally 1/4 drow on my grandmother's side".
Or you could be a "goth" half-elf--dye your hair white and wear drow-looking makeup.
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Basically, any time drow show up in Golarion, there is massive panic. Most scenarios would get derailed with lynch mobs coming after you.
Actually it tends to be confusion, unless said drow are actively being evil.
The vast majority of Golarion's surface population doesn't even know drow actually exist. After the events of Second Darkness, that knowledge starts spreading but it's primarily in Varisia. Kyonin's campaign of silence not only hid their shame and left the larger world unprepared for the threat drow society poses, but it's also left an opening for drow adventurers to take advantage of, though it's getting smaller.
In some ways, it's actually easier to play a non-evil drow than in Forgotten Realms. On the other hand, the Lantern Bearers are still around.
(and before the "drow can't be non-evil in Golarion" thing starts up, there are canon non-evil drow NPCs, an Empyreal Lord that's practically made for outcast drow is out there, and that oft-misquoted sidebar from Second Darkness only suggested "no drow PCs" for that specific AP)
((still not allowed in PFS of course, but for home games this makes a difference for many))
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Contributor
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Basically, any time drow show up in Golarion, there is massive panic. Most scenarios would get derailed with lynch mobs coming after you.Actually it tends to be confusion, unless said drow are actively being evil.
The vast majority of Golarion's surface population doesn't even know drow actually exist. After the events of Second Darkness, that knowledge starts spreading but it's primarily in Varisia. Kyonin's campaign of silence not only hid their shame and left the larger world unprepared for the threat drow society poses, but it's also left an opening for drow adventurers to take advantage of, though it's getting smaller.
In some ways, it's actually easier to play a non-evil drow than in Forgotten Realms. On the other hand, the Lantern Bearers are still around.
(and before the "drow can't be non-evil in Golarion" thing starts up, there are canon non-evil drow NPCs, an Empyreal Lord that's practically made for outcast drow is out there, and that oft-misquoted sidebar from Second Darkness only suggested "no drow PCs" for that specific AP)
((still not allowed in PFS of course, but for home games this makes a difference for many))
Plus, other than a certain general, most drow aren't exactly racing to bring ruin to the surface. Drow society seems more internally dangerous. I'd be more worried about the surface's threats, like Razmir or giants or orcs or something. :)
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Drow are not generally known in most parts of Golarion. They are very secretive. Your character could have darkish skin, whitish hair, dislike bright light, and say their elven parent was a "dark elf". Most people, including elves, in the setting wouldn't know what that was, some of them would think the reference was to the dark-brown-skinned Ekuaje of the Mwangi expanse, and some of them would have heard legends and children's scary stories of dark elves and wonder if these stories were true. As long as you don't take the drow-heritage racial options in the ARG, which are not legal for play, you can flavor your character pretty much however you'd like.
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There can be only one! Starts hunting down Wicked Brew's characters in the hope that once all of the aspects have been reunited in one host, it will result as being reborn as the Lord of Murde... er, Last Azlanti.
As a direct lineal descendant of Aroden through several hundred generations, I'm calling "dibs" on the whole reborn thing... ;)
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Making your half elf, half drow is not allowed per the reskinning restrictions.
That's true, but so long as you gain no mechanical benefit from being drow there's nothing stopping you from making your half elf have coal-black skin and shocking white hair or using a Drow mini on the battle mat.
In other words, +1 to what Paladin of Baha-who? said.
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Drow are not generally known in most parts of Golarion. They are very secretive. Your character could have darkish skin, whitish hair, dislike bright light, and say their elven parent was a "dark elf". Most people, including elves, in the setting wouldn't know what that was, some of them would think the reference was to the dark-brown-skinned Ekuaje of the Mwangi expanse, and some of them would have heard legends and children's scary stories of dark elves and wonder if these stories were true. As long as you don't take the drow-heritage racial options in the ARG, which are not legal for play, you can flavor your character pretty much however you'd like.
The people with high enough mods to make that knowledge local check are the last ones you want reaching that conclusion.
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Making your half elf, half drow is not allowed per the reskinning restrictions.That's true, but so long as you gain no mechanical benefit from being drow there's nothing stopping you from making your half elf have coal-black skin and shocking white hair or using a Drow mini on the battle mat.
In other words, +1 to what Paladin of Baha-who? said.
In this case, that's exactly what the reskinning rules say you can't do.
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That's not too bizarre, really. It keeps the game at least somewhat grounded because it prevents people going from full-on "Yeah, he's an Elf, but he LOOKS like a Halforc" or "Yeah, his skin is yellow, his eyes look like these of a snake and instead of hair he has scales...what? No, he's a normal human!"
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Don't get me wrong I can see how the rule can save a lot of arguments and confusion at the table (and yes I'm aware of the event that motivated the ruling). I'm just surprised that given all the long lasting mechanical ambiguities that have been allowed to persist in the game that an explicit ruling was made on this topic.
This topic amuses me because I played a Drow in a previous living campaign (Living City) that only allowed Drow as a boon race (and even then only gave out maybe 2 dozen of those boons). Most of the time I ran into other drow I was disappointed as they tended to be played as either Drizzt clones, or as differently colored humans with pointy ears. Seems few were wanting to play Drow as, well, Drow.
It was also a bit weird that due to there being no official reskinning restrictions in that campaign, I would encounter characters that were mechanically elves, but had dark skin and white hair. Which I honestly didn't mind, if not for the fact that those too, were either Drizzt clones or differently colored pointy eared humans.
Later iterations of Living campaigns that allowed Drow, had pretty much the same experience. People didn't really want to play amoral sadistic bastards with superiority complexes. They merely wanted elves with an exotic look to them, and perhaps a bit of emo/angst.
-j
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In this case, that's exactly what the reskinning rules say you can't do.Making your half elf, half drow is not allowed per the reskinning restrictions.That's true, but so long as you gain no mechanical benefit from being drow there's nothing stopping you from making your half elf have coal-black skin and shocking white hair or using a Drow mini on the battle mat.
In other words, +1 to what Paladin of Baha-who? said.
Unless I'm missing another rule, the entirety of the reskinning rules are as follows:
Can I re-skin or re-flavor an animal companion or item?
You may choose a specific type of animal companion from any of the base forms listed on pages 53–54 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or a legal Additional Resource but may not use stats for one base form with the flavor of another type of animal. Thus, a small cat could be a cheetah or leopard, as suggested, as well as a lynx, bobcat, puma, or other similar animal; it could not, however, be "re-skinned" to be a giant hairless swamp rat or a differently-statted wolf. If a GM feels that a re-skinning is inappropriate or could have mechanical implications in the specific adventure being played, he may require that the creature simply be considered its generic base form for the duration of the adventure. A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon (see page 144 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
So, going by that there is no restriction from saying your half elf has drow ancestry. The rule doesn't even address race at all. Even if you RAId it to extend to race, all it says is the GM can just say "No, no you're not really. Everyone just thinks you're crazy or something for insisting such a thing." Hell, if you wanted to you could say your half-orc was really some sort of klingon*, so long as you didn't insist on having some mechanical effect different from what half-orcs have.
*= of course, 9 out of 10 GMs would throw "not at my table" down on you, but that's neither here nor there. Table variation and all.
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So, your response to the mechanics of being half-drow being banned is to just skip the mechanics and claim to be half-drow anyway?
Perhaps you should spend some time considering a concept know as "the spirit of the rule".
The drow of Golarion are NOT like the drow of other campaign settings; they aren't evil just because they were raised that way, they are literally tainted by demonic energy (in fact, any sufficiently evil elf can spontaneously turn into a drow). Heck, the very first generation of drow were tainted by Rovagug himself. They are no more redeemable than a demon, and even their half-blooded offspring would carry that taint.
Considering that evil player characters are not allowed, this character concept simply isn't appropriate for this campaign.
Covered this already. The drow aren't that bound to evil. The ones that suffer the Dark Fate, yes. Their children are another matter.
Again, non-evil drow canonically exist. There's an Empyreal Lord practically made for good-aligned drow. And that Second Darkness sidebar talking about "no good drow PCs por favor" was exclusively talking about that specific AP.
As for demonic taint locking in alignment, considering that tieflings and aasimar have the full range of alignment and that tiefling paladins are a very popular character type....
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I think the one instance of a good aligned drow in the cannon is an example that proves the rule in this case. The chances of such a character surviving to make it to the surface are grim, and joining a society where the idea is to get stories about you widely distributed when your kin are going to be coming after your head seem more grim.So, your response to the mechanics of being half-drow being banned is to just skip the mechanics and claim to be half-drow anyway?
Perhaps you should spend some time considering a concept know as "the spirit of the rule".
The drow of Golarion are NOT like the drow of other campaign settings; they aren't evil just because they were raised that way, they are literally tainted by demonic energy (in fact, any sufficiently evil elf can spontaneously turn into a drow). Heck, the very first generation of drow were tainted by Rovagug himself. They are no more redeemable than a demon, and even their half-blooded offspring would carry that taint.
Considering that evil player characters are not allowed, this character concept simply isn't appropriate for this campaign.
Covered this already. The drow aren't that bound to evil. The ones that suffer the Dark Fate, yes. Their children are another matter.
Again, non-evil drow canonically exist. There's an Empyreal Lord practically made for good-aligned drow. And that Second Darkness sidebar talking about "no good drow PCs por favor" was exclusively talking about that specific AP.
As for demonic taint locking in alignment, considering that tieflings and aasimar have the full range of alignment and that tiefling paladins are a very popular character type....
I'm actually not arguing the case for drow joining the Pathfinder Society being a good move(honestly, I'd be far more worried about getting the Lantern Bearer's attention than getting hounded by other drow), but rather against statements that non-evil drow period aren't keeping with the setting.
Also, regarding survivability, a non-evil drow is still living in Zirnakaynin running the only gentlemen's club in the city. That's two kinds of trouble he's courting but he's still thriving.
(personal pet peeve: I've always found "exception that proves the rule" to be a meaningless concept made to dismiss those very exceptions)
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So, your response to the mechanics of being half-drow being banned is to just skip the mechanics and claim to be half-drow anyway?
Perhaps you should spend some time considering a concept know as "the spirit of the rule".
I don't think you'll find anyone in PFS who's quicker to allow RAI to trump RAW. So I find it pretty deliciously ironic that I'm being lectured on remembering that RAW is not always LAW.
Even still, if you wanted to go strictly by RAW or allow RAI to trump the RAW of the reskinning rules, there's several reasons why you can't tell a player what his elf can't look like a drow or a halfling can't look like a goblin, or even his dwarf can't look like an anthropomorphic faerie unicorn.
Reason one: the reskinning rules as quoted above. So long as he's not using any mechanical effects linked to being drow/goblin/whatever, then all he's really doing is describing his character's appearance and/or background. And there is absolute freedom in that regard.
Reason two: Telling a player that his halfling can't have green skin and pointed teeth or that his elf can't have black skin and white hair is a violation of the "Don't Be a Jerk" rule. What purpose is being served, other than to antagonize that player?
Reason three: It's not so much a violation of a rule, but exceedingly bad GM form. Magic is a very real thing. Not only is there the possibility of magic, make-up, or cosmetic alteration being possible for creating the "banned" appearance, if the GM can't abide by the appearance the character can more elegantly be adjudicated as being deluded into thinking he looks that way (and thus no other PCs or NPCs sees the banned appearance) rather than engaging in a pissing contest with the player and insisting his character "does not" look that way.
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Anyone can accuse anyone of being a jerk. Its really not a useful rule in this situation.
Reason one: the reskinning rules as quoted above. So long as he's not using any mechanical effects linked to being drow/goblin/whatever, then all he's really doing is describing his character's appearance and/or background. And there is absolute freedom in that regard.
Thats not the case. That's very much not the case. That is explicitly not the case. The thing that brought this up was a pigdog.. or a dog pig or something with all the stats of one that just looked like the other. It was banned. This is the exact same thing.
Reason two: Telling a player that his halfling can't have green skin and pointed teeth or that his elf can't have black skin and white hair is a violation of the "Don't Be a Jerk" rule. What purpose is being served, other than to antagonize that player?
Complying with the no reskinning rules.
Complying with PFSs no drow pc policy.
Keeping the character alive (at least till they can afford a hat of disguise) cause someon'es going to be able to make a dc 15 knowledge local check.
Its bad player form to try to push something PFS has gone out of its way to discourage.
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...then all he's really doing is describing his character's appearance and/or background. And there is absolute freedom in that regard...
Cite, please. Because, to the best of my knowledge, what you describe is specifically not allowed. You cannot describe your character/equipment/whatever as looking just like something else that already has rules. You can't call a longsword a katana, and you can't be a "drow" that's really a regular elf/half elf.
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...then all he's really doing is describing his character's appearance and/or background. And there is absolute freedom in that regard...Cite, please. Because, to the best of my knowledge, what you describe is specifically not allowed. You cannot describe your character/equipment/whatever as looking just like something else that already has rules. You can't call a longsword a katana, and you can't be a "drow" that's really a regular elf/half elf.
I cited the reskinning rules upthread.
Strictly by RAW, the rules don't address one's race/background at all, only animal companions and items. Granted, I'm one who readilly accepts RAI > RAW arguments, so it's arguably reasonable to say the reskinning rules in spirit apply to race as well. Good luck having that argument in a reasonable manner with most "RAW IS LAW!" PFS players, but I'm willing to indulge.
In that case, I turn the burden of proof to you. I say there is no rule governing what can or cannot go into one's background or appearance. Obviously I can't prove a negative, so why don't you cite a rule that does govern what can or cannot go into character backgrounds or appearances that precludes a player's character from appearing/claiming to be a drow? What rule gives a PFS GM the right to say "Your elf can't have black skin and white hair"? What rule gives a PFS GM the right to say "You can't claim to have drow ancestry" rather than "Your claim is obviously spurious, but you can go along telling people whatever you like".
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Its bad player form to try to push something PFS has gone out of its way to discourage.
I get what you're saying, but I can't help but get the feeling you're willfully ignoring what I'm saying.
What if, instead of a player insisting on pushing "My character is a Drow, because I'm abusing a loophole!" is saying "My character is distantly related to the drow; I have no mechanical similarities yet my skin is black and hair is white. Since drow have such a terrible reputation, I don't publicly claim to be drow?" Or even: "My character is totally not a drow; she just happened to hit that perfect storm of genetic ineritances to APPEAR like a drow?"
Would you still insist that character can't have black skin and white hair?
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I get what you're saying, but I can't help but get the feeling you're willfully ignoring what I'm saying.
Stop that.
What if, instead of a player insisting on pushing "My character is a Drow, because I'm abusing a loophole!" is saying "My character is distantly related to the drow; I have no mechanical similarities yet my skin is black and hair is white. Since drow have such a terrible reputation, I don't publicly claim to be drow?"
That would be the definition of reskinning one thing into another but then denying the reskin.
Would you still insist that character can't have black skin and white hair?
Not on an elf. No drow for you.
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That would be the definition of reskinning one thing into another but then denying the reskin.
Actually, you're wrong on that. It's denying that the reskin is illegal under the rules that govern reskinning. Or, alternately, claiming to simply look one way while denying being a Drow (depending on the background provided)
Would you still insist that character can't have black skin and white hair?Not on an elf. No drow for you.
Where do you draw the line, then?
Do you also not allow elfs with red skin and purple hair, or would you allow them because they don't look like drow? Or, only upon claiming to be a bizzare-looking drow would that become verboten?
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That would be the definition of reskinning one thing into another but then denying the reskin.Actually, you're wrong on that. It's denying that the reskin is illegal under the rules that govern reskinning. Or, alternately, claiming to simply look one way while denying being a Drow (depending on the background provided)
Would you still insist that character can't have black skin and white hair?Not on an elf. No drow for you.Where do you draw the line, then?
Do you also not allow elfs with red skin and purple hair, or would you allow them because they don't look like drow? Or, only upon claiming to be a bizzare-looking drow would that become verboten?
I would. Because then they're not one thing that looks like something else (thats where i draw the line). They're one thing that looks like nothing at all.
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Since you're drawing lines, what about coal (instead of black) skin and light grey (instead of white) hair?
Dark blue skin and platinum hair?
Dark Grey skin and colorless hair?
I'm not trying to poke an argument; I'm just pointing out that it's indefensible to set that aribtrary standard, especially just for elfs/half elfs. Heck, now that I've thought more about it I think the best way to look at it is if Drow can have black/white coloration, then it's obviously in the elfish genome. Non-drow should be able to (if rarely) express that phenotype.
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Since you're drawing lines, what about coal (instead of black) skin and light grey (instead of white) hair?
Dark blue skin and platinum hair?
Dark Grey skin and colorless hair?
I'm not trying to poke an argument; I'm just pointing out that it's indefensible to set that aribtrary standard, especially just for elfs/half elfs.
We have talked before right? If you're calling what I'm saying indefensible then yes, you're poking an argument out of me.
Yes the line is blurry. Yes the line is arbitrary. Setting it is a DMs job. Wolves and Coyotes both exist, even though you have the eastern coyote, the red wolf, and the occasional outright wolf coyote offspring.
No loki, you do not get to keep your head
How does one have colorless hair anyway? Like fiber optic cables?