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My advise would be to have your character deal with this like a real person would in similar circumstances. Assume that your fellow party member is important to you (similar to family or a good friend), his skills are necessary for the mission, but he is somewhat crazy, in this case a kleptomaniac. That is obviously going to be annoying, but most people wouldn't murder someone for it, and would find a way to deal with the problem. Most obvious would be to a) keep a good inventory of your stuff, and b) subject the thief to frequent searches. Assume you both care for him and need him, but you have to deal with his malady and it should work out fine.
Maybe the barbarian does not consider the rogue to be vital member of the team, and we know that the less valuable you are the less people are likely to put up with your BS. They might just be party members and not friends in the game.
I see no reason why he does not just take the rogue's gear, without using sleight of hand, and selling it. That way he recoups his losses, and sets a precedent.
edit: I prefer my idea of letting the rogue sneak attack someone and then walk away as presented upthread since the barbarian is not allowed to act directly against the rogue.
I see no reason why he does not just take the rogue's gear, without using sleight of hand, and selling it. That way he recoups his losses, and sets a precedent.
^ This. It's pretty realistic. And when your rogue complains he can give the rogue the nastiest of grins and say "Wanna wrestle?"
The only concern that's come to my mind is the rogue reporting this to the guards.
That said, I think the OP settled on using the elixir of sex changing or whatever-it's-called. Good trick, IMO.
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Retire your character, make a monk with a vow of poverty. Then have him constantly follow the rogue giving sermons on the dangers of greed.
I'm chiming in to encourage you to indulge your fury at the dm's and rogue's egregious actions.
My idea is to grapple the rogue into unconsciousness and sell him into slavery. Alternatively buy geas from a cleric that the rogue must give you all his loot and protect you at all costs.
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I would avoid in-game efforts also. After ignoring it, if pressed, I would look straight at the rogue's player and say, "Why are you being a jerk and stealing from my character? I don't mean your character. I mean you. It might have been funny once, but it's not funny now." Then, give him one of your best "I mean it!" stares.
Then, look at the GM and say, "If this continues I'm going to have to leave the game because I don't want this to degrade into pvp, and that's what would realistically happen. That's not good for anyone. You don't want that, do you?"
If they are your friends, they will knock off the jerkish behavior. If they don't, well, then you have your answer.
Back when I was a teenager, this type of behavior was fairly common among thieves (1st edition), but it never got out of hand. Players that I played with knew when not to cross the line for the most part.
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Let me make sure I've got everything correct:
- the rogue is a member of the party
- the GM is allowing this to happen and wont let you protect yourself by restraining him
- the party members in-game are aware of the rogue's behavior
- the rogue is only stealing from you
As long as all of that is true, I'd say to create a bad reputation for the rogue, make your party well-known in the metropolis, do something really dastardly crime without being caught and pin it on the rogue, and then quit the group of the GM is gonna be a piece of crap to grant one player favor over another.
I love playing rogues and I have to say, from my experience, the GM often finds a way to make the rogue useless or just ignores the class and focuses on the fighters and spell-casters. This GM is favoring the rogue, but doing so against the other players. If any player does something to another player, so long as the characters find out, all bets are off. It shows how favorable the other player is to the GM than you are. Are the rogue and the GM in a romantic relationship? Does the GM despise you?
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It does sound like both the GM and the rogue player are in cahoots.
the other players are being dices too for letting this go on. It's like standing by when someone is being bullied.
Form your own group. The others will join up when they become the target.
I'd rather not play than game with people like this.
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There is a small chance that the rogue character is enchanted to be an asshat, and the GM obviously wants to let it work its course. So you could want to check for enchantments, curses and whatnot before folding him inside out. The curse could be on the rogue or on you.
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In one of our games, I was playing 1 of 3 half brothers. I was a Human, LE, maneuver master monk//inquisitor that I referred to as the Shogun of Harlem. Another player was a LN, Oread fighter//alchemist. Another was a half elf, LG wizard (Yeah, Dad got around.). We made these all independently, mind you, but the brother mechanic was put in place because it seemed to fit. When it came time to announce our names, the LG wizard called himself Abel. After he declared that, what could I do? I stated that my name was Kane, and we were off and running.
At any rate, I kept initiating grapple checks and making dirty trick rolls at various points (out of combat - this was a flavor thing), as befitted my bullying character. At one point, we found a chest that some ogres had had and I initiated a grapple check to stuff him into it when we were sitting around the campfire that evening.
The player apparently couldn't figure out that I was beating up his character, not him, and seemed to take it personally after a while when I meant nothing by it and he told me he was fine with it when we started off. I don't know if anything even remotely resembling this is going on or not, but I figured I'd bring it up as a maybe.
These ideas of in-game passive aggressive behavior, simply create more problems.
I really must press this: There is no in-game solution.
This can only be handled out of game.
I agree with your first point, passive aggressive in-game behavior won't work. I disagree with your others. It's an in-game problem and shoukd be dealt with in game.
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I agree with your first point, passive aggressive in-game behavior won't work. I disagree with your others. It's an in-game problem and shoukd be dealt with in game.These ideas of in-game passive aggressive behavior, simply create more problems.
I really must press this: There is no in-game solution.
This can only be handled out of game.
It became an OOC problem the second the GM shut down any in-game solutions.
It became an OOC problem the second the GM shut down any in-game solutions.I agree with your first point, passive aggressive in-game behavior won't work. I disagree with your others. It's an in-game problem and shoukd be dealt with in game.These ideas of in-game passive aggressive behavior, simply create more problems.
I really must press this: There is no in-game solution.
This can only be handled out of game.
It doesn't sound like he shut down ANY in-game solutions. Just death and permanent binding.
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Situation in a game where I was a player....
It was a long campaign, towards the last portions of it (maybe 8 years). Another player was playing a paladin and had become king of half the former kingdom after a rebellion. My character became the knight in charge of his personal guard. During a combat, the (somewhat new) wizard lobbed a fireball into combat. He killed 2 civilians and injured the king.
Now, OOC, we all knew the king was fine. But it's still assaulting his royal personage (and killing 2 civilians). At that point, the group was a little perturbed and we took a food break. The king's player and I took this opportunity to talk. He felt that something had to be done, but he wasn't sure what.
I put aside my modern concepts of justice and relied on a more medieval concept. I told the king we should do the following:
1. Cut off his hands (no somatic components)
2. Cut out his tongue (no verbal components)
3. Cut out his eyes (can't target people at range)
4. Brand him a rogue wizard (so a good-hearted priest doesn't cast regeneration on him)
He was a little put off at my recommendation, but I pointed out that the only other solutions were building a prison for wizards (difficult, since they can cast spells) or execution. My punishment, while still harsh, would leave him with his life and his freedom. While his life would be exceedingly difficult, people could still take pity on him and offer him food/shelter if they chose.
He tried to run, but in the end the king's justice was served.
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I agree with your first point, passive aggressive in-game behavior won't work. I disagree with your others. It's an in-game problem and shoukd be dealt with in game.These ideas of in-game passive aggressive behavior, simply create more problems.
I really must press this: There is no in-game solution.
This can only be handled out of game.
I believe you missed the part where the DM had to ask the Rogue player permission, to allow the other player to retaliate.
That sounds like a good way to have a pissed off Wizard after you once he casts a Silent Stilled Echolocation and goes looking for the nearest evil Cleric to heal him and help plot his revenge.
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I can't think of a way that it can be handled completely in-game.
Maybe, have the PC go away from the Rogue. Just, you know, walk away. Have a different adventure.
Also, I must say, I never advocated, and will never advocate, out of game aggressive behavior.
Being assertive is a must in many situations, but flat-out aggressiveness is not really a problem solver.
Do not misquote me.
Being assertive is a must in many situations, but flat-out aggressiveness is not really a problem solver.
If the Rogue player had an unfortunate accident it would solve the problem. Depending on where the TC lives, it could even be the standard way of handling such complaints. I hear the desert has a lot of holes and a lot of problems are solved in those holes, for instance.
To the large people who say to leave, no i am not leaving since these are the only pathfinder friends i got but anyways i would like as a follow up question
I thought about the potion idea and actually need to change the lable to something else. (yes the gm will allow this idea)
after looking at the potions i couldn't find a single one that a rogue with steal, let alone drink. The reason being he still has only stolen items that are either worth something (upwards of a 1000g) so i need it to be something he would drink rather than sell for flat money.
As a subquestion, what is a potion that a brawler would carry, and rogues would drink for the benefit?
how about a potion of cat's grace?
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You could always coat some very very valuable piece of loot that you hide and never touch in an unguent of aging. Once he steals it he ages instantly 30 years. you have proof that he is the thief and turn him onto the town marshal for theft or kill him for stealing outright his actions started this and you have proof that he is the thief and use local laws to deal with it>
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+1 Wraith
Your best bet is to make tactical decisions in combat that put the rogue at risk. The GM can't do anything about it short of taking control of your character, and if they do, then its clear that its time to leave.
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I agree with your first point, passive aggressive in-game behavior won't work. I disagree with your others. It's an in-game problem and shoukd be dealt with in game.These ideas of in-game passive aggressive behavior, simply create more problems.
I really must press this: There is no in-game solution.
This can only be handled out of game.
I believe you missed the part where the DM had to ask the Rogue player permission, to allow the other player to retaliate.
I did not read it that way. To me the OP was saying that after he passed his idea by the DM it was negated. Not that the DM passed it by the rogue player.
The OP is either a poor writer or ESL.
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Ahhh... My favorite spell, Touch Injection :)
You have heard all the other responses, so there is no point repeating them.
Cast Touch Injection (TI) with Skinsend (it has no saving throw) then sell the skin. Or the bones. That's funny too.
That only costs 1300gp.
TI with a Philter of Love (again, no save) and bro-hug him. Now he "loves" you and you can make that as creepy as you desire. Actually, combine this with that potion of sex change >:D
TI with infernal healing. Give him a hearty pat on the back while you are at a temple to Sarene, then cry out "EEvil!!
More fun options :)
fire sneeze while you are at the market, ghostly disguise, and tell everyone that he died, Imbue with addiction (allows a save) repeatedly...
Other fun ideas include anchored step or eruptive postulates. Basically, look for no-save, self only spells that are at best, disabling :)
I used to be able to combine it with gaseous form but that seems to have changed... (Used to be 10min/lvl and didn't have the "willing target" line). Hug him while you are in transit via ship or flying or something.
All of these are lvl 3 or lower, so you can buy them as potions, and for relitavely cheap. If he's going to steal from you, then you might as well spend the gold on making his life miserable!
Oh, and hug him. All the time. He won't know which ones are injections and which ones are just hugs...
Otherwise, pay an alchemist for higher lvl extracts like detonate.
Other ideas.
Dump sovern glue all over him (maybe add in a dead chicken or something) or stick him to a signpost.
Acute senses can give you some pretty stupid perception modifiers.
Arcane mark him with deogratory signs or symbols.
Curse him. There are SOOOOO many fun things you can do with curses, and after the first one sticks, the rest are easy >:D
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As others have said, solve this out of game. My OOG solution is to sit down at the gaming table and make the following demands of the players and GM:
1. Explain how hurtful this is, how unfair it is, and how it robs you of the enjoyment of playing with this group.
2. Demand that all the theft stops now.
3. Demand that all the stolen cash and items are returned or a fair amount of gold is returned as payment for them.
If they look you in the face and deny those demands, then go for an in-game solution:
1. Have your PC walk up to the rogue.
2. Explain in-character that adventuring is about risking our lives with allies we can trust to have our back and work as a team for the survival and benefit of all. You can no longer trust this evil rogue.
3. Attack him and keep attacking until he is dead. If you['re a gentle soul, stop at unconscious/dying and maybe even stabilize him if you care.
4. Take his stuff - all of it - and claim it as your compensation, wereguild for his misdeeds.
Finally, if at any time the GM intervenes to prevent a totally possible, in-character, justified, roleplayed response to handle the situation, then pack up your dice and books and leave.
Don't look back.
As others have said, solve this out of game. My OOG solution is to sit down at the gaming table and make the following demands of the players and GM:
1. Explain how hurtful this is, how unfair it is, and how it robs you of the enjoyment of playing with this group.
2. Demand that all the theft stops now.
3. Demand that all the stolen cash and items are returned or a fair amount of gold is returned as payment for them.
Agreed up until here:
If they look you in the face and deny those demands, then go for an in-game solution:
Why? What's the point?
They've already denied your request. Asking them again, but doing it through a ventroloquist's dummy is something that may work in a sit-com, but not IRL.
The GM's already said he can't kill the Rogue. Thassit. End of story. His choices are A.) Suck it up and B.) Leave.
Yeah, really does sound like the only option is to leave the game.
He spoke to the player, the player said they'd stop and then kept doing it.
He spoke to the GM, the GM basically said that he won't do anything about it, and is forbidding him from handling it himself.
So he tried out of game, he tried going to the GM, and he's specifically not allowed to handle it in game.
There are no other options remaining but to tolerate it or leave.
Personally, life is too short to deal with bad GMs and problem players. Give 'em all the finger and never come back.
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BBT got it in one. Rogue is an in-game problem, but GM forbidding you from handling it in-game is an out of game problem. In case of out of game problem, talk to GM, and if that fails, vote with your feet.
No Pathfinder is better than terrible GM-protected klepto Pathfinder.
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The GM's already said he can't kill the Rogue. Thassit. End of story. His choices are A.) Suck it up and B.) Leave.
Yep. I intended to write yet another clever passive agressive scheme, but eff it. Life is short and I agree with Rynjin. They are dicks. Get a new group, or be their punching bag.
So the only important consequence for bullying is (the threat of) physical violence?
I don't think that's true.
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My group recently started a a new campaign together and so far everything is going fine, the group is awesome and
[...]
So here i am asking this question, how do you defeat a skill monkey rogue without killing him?
I hope this can be resolved - lots of good advice. I thankfully haven't had anything like this at all in any of my games, DM or player!
Please keep us updated!
If this is the only game in town, try Roll20 or other virtual table top sites (if any I don't know for sure). There is play by post here, Myth-Weavers, Enworld I bet, and several other places.
I use RPOL, personally.
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As others have said, solve this out of game. My OOG solution is to sit down at the gaming table and make the following demands of the players and GM:
1. Explain how hurtful this is, how unfair it is, and how it robs you of the enjoyment of playing with this group.
2. Demand that all the theft stops now.
3. Demand that all the stolen cash and items are returned or a fair amount of gold is returned as payment for them.Agreed up until here:
If they look you in the face and deny those demands, then go for an in-game solution:Why? What's the point?
The point is that this puts it in crystal-clear perspective for everyone. The rogue has been in-character robbing/handicapping/hurting the OP's character. Now the OP will do it to the rogue.
How will the GM handle this?
He might allow it. If so, great! Point made and the OP has his stuff back (or a reasonable replacement) and every player and GM at the table has learned a lesson.
He might say "Stop, I forbid it". If so, simply ask "Why is his character allowed to hurt mine but mine is not allowed to hurt his?" and continue rolling the attacks and announcing the damage. If, after this perfectly logical response, the GM insists that the OP cannot do this, then, as I said in my post, pick up your stuff and walk away.
He might say something outrageous, like rocks fall and the OP character dies. Or a mysterious force keeps the OPs weapon from touching the rogue, or whatever. This would be all the proof the OP needs to pick up his stuff and walk away.
So what is the point?
Maybe whacking the rogue actually makes the point and maybe it works. Problem solved. Game goes on.
But it sounds like the GM won't let it work and, if so, then he clearly and irrevocably proves that he's a lousy GM who plays favorites and warps reality (or whatever verisimilitude pseudo-reality we accept during these games) in such a way that it hurts some players while benefiting others. In which case we know, conclusively, that the only right thing to do is leave.
Crystal clarity, maybe with an outside chance of fixing the problem. That is the point.
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So the only important consequence for bullying is (the threat of) physical violence?
I don't think that's true.
The only time I ever got some dick to stop messing with me in middle and high school was by socking them in the face. Some people don't speak another language.
Crystal clarity, maybe with an outside chance of fixing the problem. That is the point.
On the other hand, I don't think any in-game suggestion here (even mine) will actually fix this situation.
Elixir of sex change? So the now-female rogue keeps stealing things, maybe even steals more things in revenge.
Setting a trap for the rogue? He'll evade it, disable it, or even fall for it, but he'll continue stealing things.
Leaving him mid-fight? He'll dodge, evade, withdraw, whatever, then the group will handle the monster and everyone will live and the rogue will keep stealing.
But none of the above results in achieving crystal clarity about the depths the GM will go to help one player screw over another player with no chance for the victim player to resolve the problem.
I say, get the clarity and then leave, secure in the crystal-clear reason you left.
Unless that outside chance that the player/GM wakes up from their stupor and realizes the error of their ways and makes amends really happens, in which case, maybe this game/group can be salvaged after all.
Just echoing the many sentiments of leave that group. Though now I have this image of making it farther into the campaign before finally chasing the rogue around and beating the items and gold out of him like a pinata, similar to what happened to Moneybags in the old Spyro games.
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In some contexts, violence may be the only possible meaningful response, or the only consequence that means anything to a bully. A friendly, voluntary gathering to play a game is not one of those contexts. If the threat of violence is the only reason your friends aren't jerks, you have awful friends.
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Get yourself some ranks in profession: tattoo artist.
KO the rogue with non-lethal damage.
Shave his head and tattoo "thief" all over it.
Do the same for the top of both his hands.
Buy sovereign glue and get yourself a bag full of feathers and transform him into a chicken.
Once his character wake up, grab his character by the throat and say:
"Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me, try Fool me a third time and I will cut all your limbs out and sell you to a pleasure house as a plaything."
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No one here knows more about the OP's circumstance than the few posts he has written.
From what I was reading he seemed to be getting jerked around..potentially unfairly with no way to easily act back.
The OP was happy with his group up to this.
He also came back and said that the DM will allow him to trick the rogue with mislabeled potions. So there is a way to seek vengeance, just not through violence.
Since that the OP has not been back. I think that he has found his method or revenge and being violent in RL is certainly not it.
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I can see why you'd say this from a legal standpoint. However, while I don't really support the idea of actual violence the threat of potential violence is largely the reason why people do anything about bullying.
Advocating for a lack of potential consequences is equivalent to advocating in support of bullying because people are horrible and if they don't have a reason to stop they won't.
Our policy and stance on this is firm and unlikely to ever change. If you have feedback about it, you can make a thread in Website Feedback or email us at community@paizo.com.