Thanks, ElterAgo! Lots of good points in there.
Yeah - I was adding a Goblin Vulture Pilot to replace some of the generic "guards" in on one tower. Armed with bombs and tanglefoot bags and a thunderstone.
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Diehard's probably coming from "Summon Good Monster".
And if they have horsechoppers, he's going to summon the eagles inside their reach. I would.
Yes - he's got Summon Good Monster (being a good-aligned Aasimar and all).
Dang! Right. He has summoned them right next to the gobs, so no AoO coming in.
Adept goblin, burning hands spell, use the traits and feats characters get so they're cranking out +2 CL. Add a level of rogue so even their acid splash cantrips hurt, use the goblin racials on stealth, and give them cheapo, partially charged wands with their wealth by level money. A couple of web spells on the summons or scorching rays sent in the summoner's direction will help matters.
Ashiel has a lot of "evil goblin tactics" posts on this board. They're a hoot to read and full of fun tricks to pull on your players.
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remember my droogs
when your players ask for something and you have no idea what it is they are asking for, do your homework before saying yes or no
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Diehard is gained through the Celestial Temply squired through the Summon Good Monster feat.
The question is why the Devs would hve given them Diehard if the intent wasn't to allow them to use the feat. There has been discussion on the issue, I'm at work or I'd linkie something.
Edit: Iz got beat to the point a little earlier in the thread
Thanks, ElterEgo! Lots of good points in there.
Yeah - I was adding a Goblin Vulture Pilot to replace some of the generic "guards" in on one tower. Armed with bombs and tanglefoot bags and a thunderstone.
I like the cut of your jib, mate!
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But I don't want this to become a Summoner bashing post.
But I love summoner bashing threads!
I'm really interested in learning ways to handle a Summoner
Rocks fall. That character dies.
All jokes aside, I'm not really a fan of any classes with "pets" but the summoner is the worst. It might not be as bad if I didn't find that over 50% of the time, when audited, eidolons seem to be built incorrectly in a way that makes them more powerful than they should be.
The IDEA of the class is cool, the execution... not so much, and to me, not worth bothering to allow in games that I run at home. I put up with them in PFS, mostly because I don't really have a choice.
The problem with eagles is more their 3 attacks than anything else. None of the creatures have great HP. But only eagles get 3 attacks, all at +3. The Pony only gets 2 at -3!
Sure - they may not last long, but coming in with 3 attacks has been murder.
Summoning spells take a full-round to cast. That means that he starts casting and the summoned creatures appear at the start of his next turn.
On his turn, he begins casting. Then on the bad guys turn, they see him casting, attack him, and force concentration checks by him just to complete the spell.
How not to meta-GM? Well, have goblins escape, warn the others. If his summoning powers are so strong then the word will get out and things will attack him first before he can complete the spell.
Ok, a few things.
A sorc, cleric, druid, or wizard could actually summon more things than a summoner. Granted the summoner gets them as a standard action and for a longer duration. So banning the MS really doesn't solve the issue if a player likes to summon things.
They usually choose not to because the other spells are really more effective most of the time. Think about that... The other spells are usually more effective...I have a summon specialized sorcerer. I have augment summoning and superior summons. I can quite literally FLOOD the field with summoned creatures. I have only chosen to do this twice in 10 levels. Probably at least half my combats it has been more advantageous to not summon and cast a different spell every round. Very often a grease, glitterdust, or create pit has essentially ended any threat in a combat long before summoned creatures would have killed anything. (Especially once I got the persistent metamagic feat. Not to long ago I had some giants trapped in a persistent spiked pit, with persistent grease on the walls of the pit, and they were blind from a persistent glitterdust.)
Eagles really probably are too powerful for the SM1 list. But even so, remember they are dumb and he can't communicate with them in any way. They will attack whatever comes into their little bird brain based on where they appeared. I would not let them intentionally gain flanking, necessarily focus fire, perform other actions, etc...
Goblins are easily smart enough to use nets and fill the upper reaches of a room with smoke (eagles can't see in the dark). Some of them (chief or witch doctor) are even smart enough to realize who is casting the summon monster spells that are hampering them. Then the summoner should get a face full of poisoned arrows.
The goblin witch doctor could easily have scroll of stone call (or something similar) that can easily take out or disable a whole lot of eagles at once.
Goblins would be totally unconcerned by the potential friendly fire of throwing a whole bunch...
Elterego knows what's up!
As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure I shone like a star simply because my party was 3rd level. Once you hit 5th or so, everyone else starts catching up, especially the other caster types. I noticed that my critters had difficulties hitting or with DR around 4th level. A bard or bless spell or the like would help fix that.
I'm seeing a lot of "ban it because eidolon not built properly" stuff. Have the player bring the documentation in. Low level eidolons aren't hard to build. "I have 8 evo points, plus 1 I got from a feat. Here's what they are. My eidolon gets 2 feats. Here they are."
It should take about 5 minutes to check over, if that.
On his turn, he begins casting. Then on the bad guys turn, they see him casting, attack him, and force concentration checks by him just to complete the spell.Except the MS gets to summon as a standard action as an SLA.
Okay, that archetype is broken, yo.
Have the ruins underneath Sandpoint activate "something" so that dimensional travel is limited and get the player to play as a regular summoner.
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The problem with eagles is more their 3 attacks than anything else. None of the creatures have great HP. But only eagles get 3 attacks, all at +3. The Pony only gets 2 at -3!
Sure - they may not last long, but coming in with 3 attacks has been murder.
Even if he does summon them adjacent and even if it is true that a summoned eagle materializes on the wing, he still needs to start all of this off with a DC 15 fly check to hover or he needs to move as well to stay aloft, so he won't be getting full attacks. If he has to move out of range because he can't hover, he's also going to trigger AOOs as he leaves. Make sure the player understands flying rules so he's not being allowed to make off with too much power.
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On his turn, he begins casting. Then on the bad guys turn, they see him casting, attack him, and force concentration checks by him just to complete the spell.Except the MS gets to summon as a standard action as an SLA.Okay, that archetype is broken, yo.
The base Summoner gets summon monster as a standard action as an SLA. Not just the archetype.
ETA: yo.
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On his turn, he begins casting. Then on the bad guys turn, they see him casting, attack him, and force concentration checks by him just to complete the spell.Except the MS gets to summon as a standard action as an SLA.Okay, that archetype is broken, yo.
Have the ruins underneath Sandpoint activate "something" so that dimensional travel is limited and get the player to play as a regular summoner.
Every summoner gets that as a standard action, yo.
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The base Summoner gets summon monster as a standard action as an SLA. Not just the archetype.On his turn, he begins casting. Then on the bad guys turn, they see him casting, attack him, and force concentration checks by him just to complete the spell.Except the MS gets to summon as a standard action as an SLA.Okay, that archetype is broken, yo.
Well...shucks (yo).
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The base Summoner gets summon monster as a standard action as an SLA. Not just the archetype.On his turn, he begins casting. Then on the bad guys turn, they see him casting, attack him, and force concentration checks by him just to complete the spell.Except the MS gets to summon as a standard action as an SLA.Okay, that archetype is broken, yo.
And there is a feat or two which lets you cast them as standard action.
Benefit: When using summon monster to summon creatures whose alignment subtype or subtypes exactly match your aura, you may cast the spell as a standard action instead of with a casting time of 1 round.
Edit: Yo yos are fun toys!
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I think that the more important questions are: where is Otherworld gaming and how do I get in on it? He sounds like he runs a good game!
BTW, should anyone care, here's my gestalted, heavily houseruled Master Summoner, and here's my customized (we swapped stats around) eidolon.
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Not always, but often when I hear about the Summoner or Master Summoner is OP because of X.
It has usually been that the rules, restrictions, conditions, etc... were not actually being applied correctly.
Eidolons should always be checked by multiple people. They seem to usually be screwed up.
The summoned animals are stupid. They should only fight with the combat tactics of that kind of animal.
(I once heard of someone having a lion sunder the spell component pouch and holy symbol of a cleric. Just no.)
Most casters can't communicate with most summoned creatures so there are limits to what you can have them do.
{My sorc learned all the elemental languages, celestial, infernal, and abyssal. Plus he UMD's a wand of speak with animals. But that takes planning.
The eagle is kinda ridiculous at SM1. But its attacks don't have a great to hit chance. Should be making fly checks all the time, doesn't have much durability once your opponents are even halfway decent, and it's a stupid bird.
This also seems kinda more powerful because it is almost a situation written for a master summoner. "You see a horde of goblins. Yeah well I throw my horde of eagles at them." It is literally what they are best at.
Edit:
What if the opposition instead of 6 Goblins was 3 Hobgolins in breastplate with large shield? Now suddenly almost none of those eagle attacks will get through. His summoned creatures will absorb a few weapon attacks, but that is about it.
If you make a channel focused cleric for an undead campaign, it will also seem way hugely powerful.
I think that the more important questions are: where is Otherworld gaming and how do I get in on it? He sounds like he runs a good game!
BTW, here's my Summoner, and here's my customized (we swapped stats around) eidolon.
Thanks, Experiment 626! I try! Pathfinder is way more rules heavy than I thought when I first started. (I'm an old AD&D 35+ year rpger, usually GM.) So I went RotRL AP in order to slow down from my really house-ruled home game to try and master the mechanics.
Which is why I am trying my best to understand how to deal with a MS. As ElterAgo says, there are other classes that can do as well (or better). But for a low-level toon, this MS seems very OP to me.
It's tough. I've considered controlling summoned monsters myself if the player overdoes it. By the spell text, the animal comes in and attacks to the best of its ability. It knows who your enemy is and it starts mad at your enemy. But it also is an animal and doesn't know it's a summoned outsider or whatever. One good swat, unless it's a nick, would drive an animal to flee. Its top imperative after all is to live.
In the games I run, unless the animal is cornered, highly trained or compelled somehow, my wild animal encounters almost always end with the animal fleeing after a round or so. Meals that stab you aren't meals worth having.
I had considered house-ruling that eagles only get 1 attack at +3, not 3. But then looked at a druid's animal companions and realized I'd have to do the same thing there, too, in order to be more fair and not targeting my friend's MS specifically. So I am letting the eagle stand as is, even though a SM1 with 3 +3 attacks/rnd is unbalanced compared to the rest of that list.
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I'm ancient and decrepit as well. I just turned 44, am married, and have a non-RPGing yet understanding wife.
I can see how the summoner gets a bad rep. The SLA ability knocks it out of the park at low levels.
How about, "you get 2 channels at a time. 1 of them can be your eidolon"? To dismiss the action economy bottleneck I noticed, let them freely dimiss their eidolon when they bring something else in, maybe at 4th level?
Or, just leave it as is, and let them enjoy their nova 1 or 2x/day if they so choose. Beyond 5th level, I don't think its going to be much of an issue except for turn hogging.
As another grognard I can say all the classes (when well built) but especially primary casters, can seem way overpowered if you are still remembering AD&D.
The system is not and never has been really well balanced. But it tends to work reasonably well.
There are really so many ways to standard action summon that it's hard to write them all down.
It was mentioned up thread, but one of the big limiters to at least the low level summoner is damage reduction. My PFS summoner had a few fights where he could do little more than flank, because of damage reduction.
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Add a few more enemies, but also have some of these enemies begin to run away. This is help make anti-summoning techniques more plausible as these enemies spread the word of a dangerous master summoner.
SLA require concentration checks to cast if the summoner is threatened, so try to get a few enemies on the actual summoner to make it more difficult for him to summon or cast. Have enemies with range ready an action to attack the summoner when he begins casting to try and disrupt him and lose his spell.
Concentrate fire on the master summoner to bring him down, attacking his pets would probably be one of the last things PCs would do in response to fighting a summoner themselves. The summoner will either continue doing what he is doing and very likely die soon or tone it down and try to be more discrete, draw less aggro, and play more defensively.
Common anti casting techniques include monsters which grapple, ambush attacks, hit and run techniques to try and draw down the caster resources, trying to interrupt the casters from getting 8 hours of rest, concentrating on the caster first and foremost. If he is the most dangerous threat treat him that way, summoners aren't known for their defenses.
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I had considered house-ruling that eagles only get 1 attack at +3, not 3. But then looked at a druid's animal companions and realized I'd have to do the same thing there, too, in order to be more fair and not targeting my friend's MS specifically. So I am letting the eagle stand as is, even though a SM1 with 3 +3 attacks/rnd is unbalanced compared to the rest of that list.
Eh, its the combat brawler of the 1st level list. Diehard just make it stick around to be a PIA, as the staggered condition leaves it with 1 attack, not 3. It gets to land 3 shots, even if its on the ground (huh?) I'd think it'd need to be hovering and to make its flight check for that one.
At 3rd level its relevant. By 5th its a mere distraction.
My GM let me use Summon Minor Monster as part of my SLAs. If you want overpowered, sic 5 skunks on someone (That lasted 1 encounter as well. I keep those in reserve for roleplay fun like turning them loose on bar fights now).
I can see how the summoner gets a bad rep. The SLA ability knocks it out of the park at low levels.
...
Or, just leave it as is, and let them enjoy their nova 1 or 2x/day if they so choose. Beyond 5th level, I don't think its going to be much of an issue except for turn hogging.
A Summoner wouldn't seem too bad. It's teh Master Summoner that is making me have to question: do I change this or can I deal with it on my end as GM?
Also: I'm over 50. LOL My 35+ years is actual gaming experience, starting with D&D back in 197-something. So I'm not a noob when it comes to trying to run a table. But PF has so many rules, and new ones added all teh time, it has been hard to stay on top of. Plus all the new rules for new classes and archetypes.
So, like I said, I try to educate myself and learn to be a better GM. This is a challenge and will earn me more system mastery, that's for sure!
Fly checks, animal handling checks; concentration checks; 5'-steps; and AoO; etc.,etc.
Great suggestions, Melkiador and Trimalchio! Thanks!
Depending on alignment, if any encounter area's have been Consecrated to an alignment range(Good/Lawful/Chaos) and the Summoner is of the opposed alignment, then they can not summon while with in the area. True Neutral Summoners are a true bane to existence...
This will be helpful in the Catacombs of Wrath! Thanks for this info!
Depending on alignment, if any encounter area's have been Consecrated to an alignment range(Good/Lawful/Chaos) and the Summoner is of the opposed alignment, then they can not summon while with in the area. True Neutral Summoners are a true bane to existence...This will be helpful in the Catacombs of Wrath! Thanks for this info!
I went with "neutral" for fun as well as flexibility. That PC's a sucker! :D
I like the ideas mentioned above of adding more enemies with higher ACs as the best solution. Forcing fly checks and questioning animal tactics would bog down the game even more.
May need to give the melee PCs a boost (somehow) so that they don't miss as much.
It's tough. I've considered controlling summoned monsters myself if the player overdoes it. By the spell text, the animal comes in and attacks to the best of its ability. It knows who your enemy is and it starts mad at your enemy. But it also is an animal and doesn't know it's a summoned outsider or whatever. One good swat, unless it's a nick, would drive an animal to flee. Its top imperative after all is to live.
In the games I run, unless the animal is cornered, highly trained or compelled somehow, my wild animal encounters almost always end with the animal fleeing after a round or so. Meals that stab you aren't meals worth having.
I appreciate all the pointers, Shaun! I tend to run a summoned creature as being a little more driven to attack the enemy than a natural creature, but I agree with a lot of the things you have suggested: hover checks and staying airborne checks; allowing the eagle to be summoned flying (just seems right, even if some disagree); remembering that movement and attack mean only 1 attack and not 3 in a round. Just the potential AoO with somewhat fragile creatures may make him change his tactics and summon something other than an eagle!
The base Summoner gets summon monster as a standard action as an SLA. Not just the archetype.On his turn, he begins casting. Then on the bad guys turn, they see him casting, attack him, and force concentration checks by him just to complete the spell.Except the MS gets to summon as a standard action as an SLA.Okay, that archetype is broken, yo.
And there is a feat or two which lets you cast them as standard action.
Benefit: When using summon monster to summon creatures whose alignment subtype or subtypes exactly match your aura, you may cast the spell as a standard action instead of with a casting time of 1 round.Edit: Yo yos are fun toys!
Decent weapon, too! (The 'chucks are better, though!)
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I'm not a fan of making all summoned flying creatures start on the ground. What if the encounter involves a flying group of PCs fighting a flying dragon - if they're a mile in the air, there is no way a summoner (of any class) could summon anything into the fight. The same rule would prevent underwater summons except when very near the beach or very near the bottom of the ocean (and I don't think a shark would like being summoned onto a sandy beach just because it needs a surface to support it).
So for me, I interpret "surface" as "any object, including the ground, or any medium such as air or water, capable of supporting the summoned creature assuming it has a mode of travel capable of moving within that medium".
But that doesn't mean a summoned eagle is already hovering, and it cannot make 3 attacks unless it hovers (fly check DC 15, the eagle is +8 so it will fail 30% of the time, fail means moving which will provoke if it were summoned next to an enemy). This means that about 30% of the time the trick of summoning an eagle next to an enemy means it cannot make a full attack and probably even provokes one or more AoOs on the eagles first turn. Quite the gamble - summon a creature that has a 70/30 chance of being OP or sucking, or summon something else that is less OP but more consistent.
Eagles are noisy and their shrill cries can be heard for a very long distance. Fighting a dungeon full of goblins and using an eagle in one room means maybe alerting goblins from nearby rooms who might come join in the battle. Maybe bringing nets or tanglefoot bags.
Finally, goblins are fairly small and maybe have a bit of a justified fear of eagles (eagles are big enough to attack mountain goats so I assume goblins could be on the eagles' menu), especially if there are eagles native to the surroundings. Maybe these goblins actually stock up on anti-eagle paraphernalia (ranged weapons, nets, tanglefoots, bolas, or even just a goblin ready and trained to grapple those pesky eagles and bring them to the ground.
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I can see how the summoner gets a bad rep. The SLA ability knocks it out of the park at low levels.
...
Or, just leave it as is, and let them enjoy their nova 1 or 2x/day if they so choose. Beyond 5th level, I don't think its going to be much of an issue except for turn hogging.A Summoner wouldn't seem too bad. It's teh Master Summoner that is making me have to question: do I change this or can I deal with it on my end as GM?
Also: I'm over 50. LOL My 35+ years is actual gaming experience, starting with D&D back in 197-something. So I'm not a noob when it comes to trying to run a table. But PF has so many rules, and new ones added all teh time, it has been hard to stay on top of. Plus all the new rules for new classes and archetypes.
So, like I said, I try to educate myself and learn to be a better GM. This is a challenge and will earn me more system mastery, that's for sure!
Fly checks, animal handling checks; concentration checks; 5'-steps; and AoO; etc.,etc.
Well, I'm not quite in the 50+ category. But I'm not that far off.
Pretty often when someone is switching from an earlier version to PF, I suggest starting with just the CRB for a while, then add a few of the other books, then a few more, etc... That lets them learn all that crap in more manageable blocks rather than one huge lump-o-stuff.
The other thing I suggest is exactly what you are doing now. Come to the boards for advice. But you don't need to have all the stuff like fly checks and handle animal checks memorized. You checked with us and now you know about it. Make the player learn all that crap and just occasionally spot check him to make sure he is doing it correctly.
"Ok, did you have it successful make a fly check to hover while it is full attacking? Did you make your handle animal check to get it to leave off from the goblin and attack the chief? Did you make another to get it into flanking position?"
When he says I only needed 1 check at a DC=13, remember that. Next day check and see if he was right. "Nope, you needed 2 checks. One was DC=13, but the other was DC=18. Remember that next time." If you find he keeps screwing it up tell him he can't use that type of creature until he can learn the rules properly. (I just made up numbers, I didn't bother to look them up for the example.)
That is perfectly legit and not at all mean spirited. A responsible player learns all about what he is trying to do. It is not fair to just learn the positive stuff and make all the negative stuff the GM's responsibility. Don't let them put you in that box.
that's one of the reasons I wouldn't let a beginner run a summoner. I don't think they are over powered, but there is a lot to learn and be organized. Alchemist, druid, magus, gunslinger, etc... Some of those just have a lot to them. I would rather a player learn the basic lego set before they start working with solid state mechanics.
I'm reading all this neat problem and advice on how a total mockery of an opponent should actually become a threat..ugh
Seriously we're talking goblins! And the guy is using decent tactics and having good rolls I suppose. You wouldn't be complaining so much if those eagles kept rolling 1-5. Oh a thrilling +3 to hit and a 1d4+2, if there was a barbarian in the party he could do more. Of course that wouldn't show so much on a creature that hardly has any hitpoints where those additional attacks matter more.
It all just seems to me like you're trying to punish your player for making some good choices, but there are many more ways for many more character options to do well. Heck I've killed half a dozen skeletons in a single turn with a silly 1st level spell put in the right spot (stumble gap ftw with all the dumb undead rushing right into it through a 1-square wide corridoor, all of them failing their saves and rolling max damage - and it was the GM herself making the rolls and facepalming in the end. Is that the spell being OP?).
Even more heck - I've had a beginner wizard destroy a nice bite of an invading army and have it panic. Granted that was a different system, but the single spell he used was the equivalent of Acid Splash using fire as the key element..against an army using black powder sieege weapons..and being dumb enough to keep the ammo piled up neatly in the open. OP spell? or just using it in the best way possible?
I have questioned if summoned animals will even attack some creatures.
An animal companion needs to learn the the attack trick twice (see Handle Animal skill) in order to attack every type of creature. The argument could be made that a summoned creature would be restricted to just the list for the first attack trick. I'm still unsure if a push is required for that eagle to attack a fire elemental or other unnatural creature.
I'm reading all this neat problem and advice on how a total mockery of an opponent should actually become a threat..ugh
Seriously we're talking goblins! And the guy is using decent tactics and having good rolls I suppose. You wouldn't be complaining so much if those eagles kept rolling 1-5. Oh a thrilling +3 to hit and a 1d4+2, if there was a barbarian in the party he could do more. Of course that wouldn't show so much on a creature that hardly has any hitpoints where those additional attacks matter more.
The GM wants to avoid punishing the player while making the game more fun for the group. That's an acceptable goal.
A barbarian could do more damage, sure. But the barbarian would also carry his own HP loss to the next fight. The summoner's eagles do not since they are just replaced. The Master Summoner probably has enough uses of his SLA to make one summon per combat encounter. The Barbarian is probably running out of rage rounds with as much combat as there is in this APs first book.
that's one of the reasons I wouldn't let a beginner run a summoner. I don't think they are over powered, but there is a lot to learn and be organized. Alchemist, druid, magus, gunslinger, etc... Some of those just have a lot to them. I would rather a player learn the basic lego set before they start working with solid state mechanics.
That's interesting, because I think it's more fun to walk people through the steps and turn them loose with a summoner. They have one main trick, but such a trick!
Its relevant at all levels. You can have their eidolon suggest things to them, in character. They don't have to deal with the mind-numbing mechanics of fighters ("I full attack. Again.") or the soul-crushing disappointment of rogues.
Its "battlefield controller guy" on easy mode. As I mentioned above, I felt like I was on vacation when I was playing it. Thusly, I had a lot of mental space available for roleplaying instead of frantically searching my character sheet(s) for just the right solution to the problems we encountered.
Otherwhere, I just remember the other thing I was going to ask.
What is the experience, system mastery, optimization level of the rest of the players?
As I said a Master Summoner is relatively easy to almost accidentally make right at the top of its optimization curve.
If the other players aren't very good at or don't like to make optimal characters, that will tend to make the Master Summoner look even more powerful in comparison to the other PC's.
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I have questioned if summoned animals will even attack some creatures.
An animal companion needs to learn the the attack trick twice (see Handle Animal skill) in order to attack every type of creature. The argument could be made that a summoned creature would be restricted to just the list for the first attack trick. I'm still unsure if a push is required for that eagle to attack a fire elemental or other unnatural creature.
The summon spell states that they "attack your enemy to the best of their ability." It's not like having a natural animal on hand.
Otherwhere, I just remember the other thing I was going to ask.
What is the experience, system mastery, optimization level of the rest of the players?
As I said a Master Summoner is relatively easy to almost accidentally make right at the top of its optimization curve.
If the other players aren't very good at or don't like to make optimal characters, that will tend to make the Master Summoner look even more powerful in comparison to the other PC's.
Mostly long-time rpg-ers, with one relatively new person. But all of us were new to Pathfinder starting a year ago. I ambitiously offered to run a home-brew campaign, totally unaware of what I was getting into mechanically.
The group really enjoyed my campaign, but we hit 9th level and I said I needed a break. PF was soooo much more powerful compared to what I was used to at 9th level!
So I offered to run an AP to give me a chance to learn the system better. And got hit with a Master Summoner. LOL Be careful what you wish for!
I'm reading all this neat problem and advice on how a total mockery of an opponent should actually become a threat..ugh
Seriously we're talking goblins! And the guy is using decent tactics and having good rolls I suppose. You wouldn't be complaining so much if those eagles kept rolling 1-5. Oh a thrilling +3 to hit and a 1d4+2, if there was a barbarian in the party he could do more. Of course that wouldn't show so much on a creature that hardly has any hitpoints where those additional attacks matter more.
It's goblins here, at this point in an AP. But the bigger issue for me is how to handle a MS regardless of campaign. MOST people say: "Don't! Ban it!"
I agree - what he's doing is what makes sense to do. But from a GM perspective, this 1 character has way more power than he should for lvl 3.
If the other players aren't very good at or don't like to make optimal characters, that will tend to make the Master Summoner look even more powerful in comparison to the other PC's.
To get back to your question: this player has a knack for power-gaming. I don't think it is conscious and deliberate, but if I allow him to choose something he always homes in on something OP. It's a gift! Or a curse - for me.
The others are pretty experienced: the ranger; the rogue; and the witch. And they can be trusted not to power-game or munchkin. The slayer is somewhat new, but great at RP her character, which I quite enjoy!
And then there's me who is trying to master too many rules!
As you have said, and other posts as well, the MS is too easy to casually optimize. And I am not a "I'm going to kill you!"-type GM. I don't optimize my enemies, except for the BBEG, because I'm not out to kill my players' characters. Hamper them. Hinder them. Harm them, yes. But kill? Only if they get really stupid.
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that's one of the reasons I wouldn't let a beginner run a summoner. I don't think they are over powered, but there is a lot to learn and be organized. Alchemist, druid, magus, gunslinger, etc... Some of those just have a lot to them. I would rather a player learn the basic lego set before they start working with solid state mechanics.That's interesting, because I think it's more fun to walk people through the steps and turn them loose with a summoner. They have one main trick, but such a trick!
Its relevant at all levels. You can have their eidolon suggest things to them, in character. They don't have to deal with the mind-numbing mechanics of fighters ("I full attack. Again.") or the soul-crushing disappointment of rogues.
Its "battlefield controller guy" on easy mode. As I mentioned above, I felt like I was on vacation when I was playing it. Thusly, I had a lot of mental space available for roleplaying instead of frantically searching my character sheet(s) for just the right solution to the problems we encountered.
I can see what you are saying, but there is potentially also a lot of fiddly bits in all the different crap you can summon.
Can you speak the language?Fly, climb, swim, grapple, trip, poison, disease, swallow, handle animal, CMB, CMD, trample, DR/good, slime coating, earth glide, whirlwind, drowning, etc...
Many of them also have spells to learn.
If you are careful to only pick the easy to run creatures, you can avoid most of that. But anyone that wants to be a summoner probably doesn't want to just use the simple creatures.
Also from what you said, you are there to explain it to them and help them through the pitfalls and complications. This case is the GM also learning the system.
And honestly, I am not the greatest GM in the world. When I am GM I find it hard enough to keep track of all the rest of the world. It is tough for me to also devote too much effort to helping one player with a pile-o-complications.
If I was a fellow player sitting next to him, I wouldn't have a problem helping him out. But I find it difficult when I am also GM.
Also, I don't think I've ever told a player "Don't play X."
I have told players, "It is complex and difficult for a new player, many of the abilities won't apply during this campaign, nearly everyone online agrees that it is one of the least powerful classes, that is a tough one for beginners, or this requires a lot of organization."
If they still want to try, we'll give it a go.
Not too long ago we had a new player. Hadn't played DnD since 2nd Ed but had played some other RPG's in recent years. He immediately fell in love with the magi. We explained the difficulty and that our campaign was already in progress at level 9+ (so he wouldn't be learning it from the early levels). He wanted to give it a try. Sure, we let him.
He did have a lot of difficulty with it. Pretty often, he was making poor choices and nearly dying from them. It took him a good while to understand the relative strengths and weaknesses of that build. He really only got the hang of gish-weapon-spell combat about the time the campaign retired around level 15. But we all had fun and he did learn the system.