I am currently playing a halfling inspired blade swashbuckler of Desna and when i was looking into the wording of panache and butterfly's sting, i asked myself:
Can i regain Panache when i forgo my critical strike?
Panache only seems to need the confirmation of a critical strike to work and butterfly's sting works after you already successfully confirmed a critical hit.
i would argue that yes it does. as butterfly sting just change the effect of your critical hit. and if you would argue that you didn't make a critical hit then why would your frined get an effect that give him a critical hit? . you sacrificed the extra damage of a critical hit. not the fact that it landed.
I thought so. Thats pretty awesome, as most of my damage does not benefit from a critical strike anyway (precision damage), but i need to rely on crits to get panache.
Thats a win-win for me and my teammates.
Bu i choose to forgo the effect after i already confirmed the critical strike and the regaining of panache triggers of successfully confirming a critical strike, which i did to qualify for the usage of butterfly's sting in the first place.
in a way Shroudb is also right. as this might lead into 2 or more swashbucklers filling up each other's pananch by all having this feat and forgoing their critical for each other. so yea rulling that forgoing the effect include forgoing the regain pananch effect that comes with the critical is reasnable. this way one swashbuckler actuly let the other gain a pannach and not both keep getting it again and again as long as they hit.
So you would include the panache-gain in the "forgoing the effect of the critical hit" part of the butterfly's sting.
I can see it being problematic with two bouncing swashbucklers. Even though nobody in its right mind would let that fly.
It does read effect not damage. If it were damage I think you'd regain the panache but effect would imply anything that happens/is triggered when you confirm so I would rule no panache.
If pathfinder worked like MtG, you could use the stack to choose the order in which stuff triggered and use the system to make it a win/win result, but it doesn't !!
on the plus side. if you play a swashbuckler get your party members\familiers\animal companians to pick this feat for you to regain pananach by having them forgoing for you.(i actuly read a build where a caster would use that feat and a Scythe to have an improved familier using a high crit range weapon give her the crit for X4 damage)
I think this has been discussed before. With the conclusion that giving up the effects of confirming the critical included losing the benefit of regaining panache.
Going with the interpretation that you count as your own ally for the feat it would only require one Swashbuckler that keeps passing the crit on down his line of attacks.So you would include the panache-gain in the "forgoing the effect of the critical hit" part of the butterfly's sting.
I can see it being problematic with two bouncing swashbucklers. Even though nobody in its right mind would let that fly.
and this ^^ remind me of a build iv seen using a scimitar and a pick in each hand or with quick draw to get the critical from the first for the later.
I would argue that "forgo the EFFECT" seems to imply that you forgo everything about the critical, not only damage.
P.e. critical feats effects, panache regain and etc are all effects tied to the crit.
I think the term specific over general comes into play here.
Let's break it down shall we?Text from Butterfly's Sting "When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical." Emphasis Mine.
Now from Swashbuckler
" Each time the swashbuckler confirms a critical hit with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, she regains 1 panache point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler's character level doesn't restore panache." again Emphasis mine.
The way those are worded, all you need to do is roll the crit, and confirm it then you regain panache. Now because this triggers two opposite effects they would not interact further. You confirmed the crit and that is all the swashbuckler needs is the confirmation. The feat needs the confirmation to trigger its continued effect which is to grant the critical HIT to the next ally. So they trigger off the same effect but do not interact beyond that.
in a way Shroudb is also right. as this might lead into 2 or more swashbucklers filling up each other's pananch by all having this feat and forgoing their critical for each other. so yea rulling that forgoing the effect include forgoing the regain pananch effect that comes with the critical is reasnable. this way one swashbuckler actuly let the other gain a pannach and not both keep getting it again and again as long as they hit.
How do you even figure that happens?
If I have this feat and so does my buddy... and I confirm my crit and pass off the extra damage to him... he does not regain panache as he did not confirm a critical he is benefiting from the critical damage but not from the Crit confirmation. Same would happen if he crit and passed it to you. All it would do is play out the exact same as if the two of you crit and didn't have the feat in the first place.I would agree with shroudb. If you for go the critical you for go everything the critical triggers. I don't think you can be your own ally lol.
I believe in the FAQ they have stated you are your own ally.
So Paizo at least does not agree with you.
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As the masked one notes, you do not have to gain the effect of the critical to regain panache, you only need to confirm. Butterfly's Sting gives up the effect of the critical, but not the confirmation, so you regain panache on a critical that you give up through that feat.
On the flip side, if you are a swashbuckler and someone passes a critical to you, you would also regain panache because the attack is automatically confirmed as a critical (presuming you hit). The key word is "automatically confirmed". You do not merely receive the effects of a critical, but you actually automatically confirm a critical. That said, in order to keep passing panache back and forth like this would require that you both continuously give up the effects of the critical, which is a drawback in itself. A much better use of the feat is to pass the critical to your friend Big McLargeHuge with an x4 critical weapon two-hander, at which point the +1 panache seems like a rather trivial benefit.
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I think the term specific over general comes into play here.
Let's break it down shall we?
Text from Butterfly's Sting "When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical." Emphasis Mine.Now from Swashbuckler
" Each time the swashbuckler confirms a critical hit with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, she regains 1 panache point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler's character level doesn't restore panache." again Emphasis mine.The way those are worded, all you need to do is roll the crit, and confirm it then you regain panache. Now because this triggers two opposite effects they would not interact further. You confirmed the crit and that is all the swashbuckler needs is the confirmation. The feat needs the confirmation to trigger its continued effect which is to grant the critical HIT to the next ally. So they trigger off the same effect but do not interact beyond that.
Getting a critical hit and confirming a critical hit are the same thing. See this FAQ. If you don't take the critical you don't get the critical (and you didn't confirm it for the purposes of rider effects).
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Getting a critical hit and confirming a critical hit are the same thing. See this FAQ. If you don't take the critical you don't get the critical (and you didn't confirm it for the purposes of rider effects).I think the term specific over general comes into play here.
Let's break it down shall we?
Text from Butterfly's Sting "When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical." Emphasis Mine.Now from Swashbuckler
" Each time the swashbuckler confirms a critical hit with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, she regains 1 panache point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler's character level doesn't restore panache." again Emphasis mine.The way those are worded, all you need to do is roll the crit, and confirm it then you regain panache. Now because this triggers two opposite effects they would not interact further. You confirmed the crit and that is all the swashbuckler needs is the confirmation. The feat needs the confirmation to trigger its continued effect which is to grant the critical HIT to the next ally. So they trigger off the same effect but do not interact beyond that.
The FAQ is not saying that gaining the effects of the critical is the same thing as confirming, it's saying that "scoring a critical hit" is meant to refer to confirming a critical hit and is just an instance of not using the preferred rules verbiage.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nda
You do count as your own ally unless it doesn't make sense or would be impossible.