Basically the title. We've got a magus, ninja, and melee sorc. Obviously this group is all hammers. As the resident 4th man, I need to be both arm and anvil for these dudes.
I was thinking (and was approved) as a master summoner, but I don't know how effective they are at the arm/anvil roll. I also know that Shamans are divine casters with access to both the cleric and wizard/sorc spell list through human/half-elf/half-orc favorite class bonus and lore spirit. Versatility like that probably means they would be able to fit both the rolls I need, and by "abusing" hex vulnerability and healing hex there is a decent amount of healing there for a first level spell.
So, what do you think? Master summoner? Shaman? Do you have another idea?
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Generally speaking, even if you have a class that has the capabilities to do perform more than one role, you don't have the actions to do so.
I would suggest you focus on one or the other, and try and get the Magus and the Sorcerer, who can also have the needed class features to perform other roles, to spend an action or two doing that before wading into Melee. The Magus can even provide support functionality or battlefield control who smacking things with a sword, spell combat can be more than just getting an extra attack with some lighting on it.
Any class with nine levels of spells, and most with 6 (especially a juiced up 6 like the summoner) can quite effectively perform any one role, and having a backup/secondary one you are ready to take over if the need arises is always good, but the concept of tactics like these isn't that you have characters who have the capability to be those roles, but that everyone has a job to do and is ready to do it, especially in the critical first couple rounds of combat.
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Help me be an arm / anvil?
Mystic Theurge
and try and get the Magus and the Sorcerer, who can also have the needed class features to perform other roles, to spend an action or two doing that before wading into Melee.
This is good advice. You can also ask them to work on debuffing things to help with the incoming damage. Have the magus use Rime frostbite instead of shocking grasp. Just minor changes will help tremendously.
I recommend Speaker for the Past Life Shaman. Go melee to support your party. If you have high attributes use heavy armor, if you have low attributes, you can go the Channel Smite -> Guided Hand route.
You'd be a great healer, have a ton of melee utility (aging touch, erase from time, speed/slow time, time flicker to move into position and flank).
You can use the Ancestors revelations to boost your melee prowess and the Life Link shaman hex to be a CON-sponge for your party (which works very well with your own healing and the Spirit of the Warrior revelation).
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So long as you clear it first with the GM, consider playing a Hangover Cleric. This approach has the advantage that you can be both Anvil and Arm in the same round: cast a spell for your Standard Action,and variant channel to harm as a Move action. Daze is overpowered, especially with your group, but perhaps the GM will allow you to channel, say, Nausea, Envy (the funniest!), or Slow, instead.
A Mystic Theurge or Witch would work. Both are constrained by action economy issues, though: hard to fill both roles in one round.
An Evangelist Cleric specialized in Summoning would also do the job nicely. At 7th level one can cast a [summoning] spell as a Standard Action and Inspire Courage as a Move Action. This also lets you fill both Arm and Anvil roles in a single round. Also, there is no better force multiplier effect for a bunch of Hammers than Inspire Courage.
A Heaven's Oracle would certainly do the job. I've played one, though, and don't like how easy it is for them to solo end encounters.
I'm thinking swashbuckler. You'll be a good anvil to pair off with the Magus, but still have a wealth of combat options to be something other than a spellmonkey. You'll stand up better in a fight than the Investigator, but may still be able to present yourself as a better 'face man' for the battletoads behind you.
I'd otherwise suggest an Investigator, since you're dealing again with a pile of spellmonkeys who have to be walked down the street by the hand, and don't have the common sense to knock on a door if you want to be let in. Not nearly as combat intensive, you're just there for the show and as a general distraction in combat when there aren't "Things to See. Things to Know." When there are, you're the front-liner. Solid 'face man' territory, you'll be the 'gentle touch' who can just walk up, ask nicely, and generally open doors the easy way. GM'ing this is both a nuisance and a blessing. There's someone to notice all the details, but also are a living Meta when it comes to 'unrecognized monster' encounters.
Bard is interesting territory, but this is more if you want to be a little less utilitarian, and a lot more flamboyance. Again, good 'face man' territory here with a lot of versatility, just more wiggle-fingers than the Investigator and less sword-swishing than the swashbuckler.
Sorry to butt in here. . .
Anvil? Hammer? Arm? I'm not getting it.
It's fairly Pathfinder-specific jargon taken from this guide.
In short, the hammers kill the encounter, the arms make the hammer strong enough to kill the encounter, and the anvils make the encounter easier to kill.
@ Legowaffles
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i5hWkHXHOetRlpLOmxbpoEWod77psN0JcwFvxCl NrGc/edit
Basically hammer/anvil/arm is a way of classifying the roles a class can play. The hammers job is to do damage and/or end the encounter ASAP. The Anvils job is to control the battle and set it up for the hammer. The Arm's job is to enhance the hammer and anvil so that they can work more efficiently.
@ Dave Justus
I will definitely try to get the party to not just wade into combat. They also shouldn't be doing that since none of them have over a d8 for hit dice.
@Fruian Thistlefoot
Mystic theurge is a good prestige class I'm not to keen on prestige. I will definitely let the magus know about that spell though!
@Secret Wizard
I really dont want to go into melee here. The party already has 3 melee characters, and I dont think we need another one choking the dungeon halways (which for some reason are always 10ft across...)
@Shae'ura Drae
No argument there
@Magda Luckbender
The only problem with that use of variant casting is that I have to channel negative energy. That isn't bad in an of itself, its just that I have to be of evil alignment or neutral. I wouldn't be able to spontaneously cast cure spells and I don't think that there are any gods that grant those domains (aside from Calyen for ale).
I'm assuming your evengelist cleric is using sacred summons? If so what god/alignment/summons/domain do you recommend? I've never played Evengelist before.
@ Markov Spiked Chain
Shaman does seem like a good choice. The only problem I have with it is I don't know what spirit to take to start. They all seem... lackuster, and while the lore spirit has a really good hex (get wizard spells), it is better as a wandering hex since you can change it up every day.
@ Charon's Little Helper
Tanky bard? I agree that bard could be useful but I don't think another melee is what the group needs.
@ Zourin
I don't see how swashbuckler is anything but a hammer, but I tend to miss things so if you could enlighten me that would be perfect. As for the investigator I took a look at the class and came out with a headache. I don't think I could make heads or tails of that -w-
From what has been suggested so far Cleric, Shaman, Witch, and J*ck Sparrow? are all good choices. My question now is, while I am not a new player, I am unfamiliar with how to go about making any of these =)
So. Tips? Tricks? Other suggestions? (or answers to the replies)
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Mammoth Shaman with a goat mauler archetype familiar....get your goat to run around and assist allies with combat providing flanking bonuses. Control the field with hexes and spells + the occassional enlarge person or other buff on your allies.
Orc or Half-Orc Scarred Witchdoctor Witch Archeytpe (All Con, Str, Dex)No need to pump intelligence or any other mental stat when you cast via Constitution. Intimidate, Perma Hex, Debuff, and make attack of opportunity against any enemy that nears you with your Greataxe or Falchion.
Heaven Oracle: Nuff said but overused imo.
Master Summoner for the win. The buff spells on the list will enhance your melee happy party wonderfully. As the class isn't feat dependent, you can be a craft wondrous item dispenser to help the group.
You'd be an effective arm to the numerous hammers. When needed, your summoned creatures act as living, willed, lethal, long-lasting walls of battlefield control. If you set up your Eidelon as a scout-monkey, you can set up those walls before combat.
I'm not saying those other builds couldn't do those things in a different way. It's just that I've experienced the Master Summoner do just what you want. It's very adaptable.
@ Zourin
I don't see how swashbuckler is anything but a hammer, but I tend to miss things so if...
Swashies are a lot like fighters, albeit a little lighter on the armor up front. Dodging and Riposte are pretty solid defensive items available early on, and the manipulations expand as the class levels up. It, however, is not a damage dealer on the level of a flanking rogue or a levelled caster. In terms described, they're more an Anvil being flashy and drawing attention. They also get more skill points than fighters, rounding them out a lot more.
Investigators primary functions are in "Knowing things" and "Seeing Things". They can make 'called shots' (studied strike) and deal damage along the lines of the rogue in combat, but their special function is better classified as 'Skill:KNOW EVERYTHING' which can help the party form better tactical approaches against enemies without metagaming. They make pretty effective Arms without necessarily "adding numbers" to the party.
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@Magda Luckbender
I'm assuming your evengelist cleric is using sacred summons? If so what god/alignment/summons/domain do you recommend? I've never played Evengelist before.
Yes, Sacred Summons. Lawful good works best for Sacred Summons. E.g. Iomedae is perfect. At 5th level, Summon Monster III, you can Standard Action Summon the Lantern Archon. For Summon Monster IV you get the Hound Archon or multiple Lantern Archons. The Hound Archon is a stolid melee beast, but the lantern archon is useful even at very high levels.
The thing about lantern archons is that they fly, cast spells, make ranged touch attacks, and automatically penetrate all DR. They're like flying laser turrets. Also, while they are very hard to buff usefully, Inspire Courage and Flagbearer both do it. So an Evangelist can standard action summon a clump of flying lantern archons, each of which will inflict about 10 HP damage per round on almost any foe. It's a terrific way to drop dragons, golems, and other big and/or flying fug-uglies, whilst also controlling the battlefield and assisting allies.
The Evangelist Cleric option is more Arm than Anvil. They make outstanding arms, combining the best qualities of Bard and Cleric. They make only solid anvils. Besides summoning, your battlefield control options are largely limited to either enchantment/compulsion spells or tripping at reach. In such a martial party, I don't recommend going the martial-heavy route. Note that it takes no investment, besides tactical acuity, to trip at reach with an AoO. Tripping is a form of battlefield control. Perhaps flavor your Sermonic Inspire Courage as divine tactical guidance. Here's one way a martial Evangelist Cleric might play in combat at first level.
Around 8th level, if you are able to buy magic items, you want The Banner of the Ancient Kings. Attach it to your longspear. Pump your CHA to the otherwise-useless 15 and you can also get the Flagbearer feat. Combined with the Banner & Flagbearer, your Inspire Courage rocks +5 to hit and +5 HP to damage to your entire group. Even your own mediocre melee attacks will hit frequently and pack a wallop. Your summoned Lantern Archons thus inflict 17 HP per round, probably missing only on a 1.
Your 9th level Inspired Augmented Superior Sacred Summon Monster V spell gets 4.5 lantern archons, on average, which will inflict average 75 HP per round to almost any foe and can not be ignored. You can do this with a Standard Action on Round One, leaving you a Move action to start Inspire Courage. Save this technique for the worst foes and the direst emergencies, lest your martial allies grow complacent or feel overshadowed.
@Magda Luckbender
I'm assuming your evengelist cleric is using sacred summons? If so what god/alignment/summons/domain do you recommend? I've never played Evengelist before.
Yes, Sacred Summons. Lawful good works best for Sacred Summons. E.g. Iomedae is perfect. At 5th level, Summon Monster III, you can Standard Action Summon the Lantern Archon. For Summon Monster IV you get the Hound Archon or multiple Lantern Archons. The Hound Archon is a stolid melee beast, but the lantern archon is useful even at very high levels.
The thing about lantern archons is that they fly, cast spells, make ranged touch attacks, and automatically penetrate all DR. Also, while they are very hard to buff usefully, Inspire Courage and Flagbearer both do it. So an Evangelist can standard action summon a clump of flying lantern archons, each of which will inflict about 10 HP damage per round on almost any foe. They're like flying laser turrets. It's a terrific way to drop dragons, golems, and other big fug-uglies, whilst also controlling the battlefield and assisting allies.
The Evangelist Cleric option is more Arm than Anvil. They make outstanding arms, combining the best qualities of Bard and Cleric. They make only solid anvils. Besides summoning, your battlefield control options are largely limited to either enchantment/compulsion spells or tripping at reach. In such a martial party, I don't recommend going the martial-heavy route. Note that it takes no investment, besides tactical acuity, to trip at reach with an AoO. Tripping is a form of battlefield control. Perhaps flavor your Sermonic Inspire Courage as divine tactical guidance. Here's one way a martial Evangelist Cleric might play in combat at first level.
Around 8th level, if you are able to buy magic items, you want...
I want to play this. I've seen a guide for the Reach Cleric but is there a guide for this build? Or actually the feats are obvious so I guess the only question is what domain to take and what stats to use.
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That's about it. It sort of builds itself. The basic concept works as a one point build. It's a really flexible build, because you can emphasize either the Martial or the Caster side, while still excelling at summoning angels. Just don't do this to your martial allies [Youtube: Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit].
This analogy makes my life hurt.
Life Link shaman hex
Is not the same as the Oracle's Life Link revelation. It only works when someone is at -5 hitpoints or below.
Perhaps an inquisitor can work. Debuff the main opposition with litany spells using your immediate action and use your standard action to heal or aid another.
Or a investigator. Hand out infusions for every one to buff themselves, use aid another + bodyguard to buff even more (there is a talent for move action aid another) and you still have your standard action to do stuff yourself.