I mean, there's a 30% cost reduction for limiting something to an alignment or class.
Given how expensive and time consuming magic item creation is, and how its limited to actual craftsmen and can't be mass produced, surely the majority of magic item creators tailor their items to a specific customer?It's cheaper to produce and safer for the customer too. If your shiny new magic sword can only be used by members of your particular knightly order, why would anyone try to steal it?
If that Magnifying Glass of Searing Light can only be used by Good aligned beings, surely that alleviates some of the worry that it could be stolen and used by your enemies?Weapons and armour especially, if I was commissioning some for my round table knights, I would make sure they couldn't be used by my opponents.
Thinking I may introduce this as a thing in my games. And introduce a ritual spell or something that lets someone transfer "ownership" of an item over to them. For a cost, like identify or something.
Un-rechargeable consumable items will be exempt I think. Potions end the such.
Thoughts?
Because it's something players can use to cheese the crafting cost of the system to get items made cheaper. Granted, there are certain abilities from items and such that, if crafted sensibly, would net a legitimate cost drop, since it requires certain class features to work, and those would be precise, so an item crafted for an order of holy paladins are examples of such things that would be exempt of cheese since it affects, for example, their Detect Evil class feature.
Even so, why would a crafter that, if it weren't for somebody personal, such as a family member, friend, etc. actually hurt their business by crafting for what is essentially a cheaper price? If they did, they certainly wouldn't be selling it for cheaper, especially by RAW. On top of that, the crafter would rather not have stuff be personalized to a person so that the thieves of the world stealing the items of the things that he crafted would actually give him return customers.
So you're saying that crafters make things in the hope that someone steals from their customers so they get repeat custom? Maybe if they were all selfish.
Then all it takes is one guy to start advertising "Secure" magic items and almost all the customers would go to him.
Remember, it's cheaper for the crafter to make BUT there's nothing that stops them from selling the item at whatever price they want. Other than market forces.
Making magic items personalised wouldn't hurt a magic crafters business at all. It would actually HELP it.
The point is that it hurts the economy as a whole, especially the crafter, to make things personalized like that. You greatly reduce the return factor of customers, as well as the ability to actually be able to sell equipment back to other crafters because of it. In other words, once it's bought, good luck selling it back for any cash, assuming someone would actually want to buy it. But why buy something that's not useful for them?
Although I understand this is homebrew, and if you think it will work for your games, go for it, but I'm telling you that this sort of pathway leads to cheese of all sorts if put at the wrong table. (I would've said right table, but that is to garner the interest of something that can be good.)
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I use and allow exactly what you're talking about in my games. If someone commissions an item, it will be keyed to them in some way (most often by race, alignment, gender, or ability).
The benefit is they get a nice price on it without having to use their own resources to become a crafter.
The drawbacks are that it might not be useable by another party member or npc if that becomes important, it might not work if they change race or other aspects (via reincarnation or polymorph), and the resale value is much lower unless they put a great deal of effort into finding someone else who meets the parameters and can afford/wants the item.
Given that the drawbacks are more numerous, I don't feel it's all that powerful.
I thought the reduction was to price not cost. So it's not worth as much, since only certain markets will buy it, but it still requires the same effort to craft with the benefit of stopping your enemies from taking your magic.
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I don't know of any business that wants it's products resold.
Allow me to introduce you to Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD, Intel, ATI. Their products are sold to manufacturers (chips and OS) who incorporate that into their own designs and effectively 'resell' their suppliers' product plus their own.
Allow me to also introduce you to most American car dealerships. MSRP is the manufacturer suggested profit margin. Dealerships may be associated with multiple auto manufacturers, but they aren't run by them in many cases. Dealers resell multiple different brands of cars they purchased from the manufacturers, and also resell used cars.
Tradesmen routinely buy up items or have business deals with crafter A (and B, C, and probably more) and move them to places where these items can demand a price. This works for both the manufacturer, who is able to routinely sell products to sustain a living, as well as the trader, who gets a profit in the resale. That's how Amazon works, friends! They don't make ANY of that stuff themselves!
The point is that it hurts the economy as a whole, especially the crafter, to make things personalized like that. You greatly reduce the return factor of customers, as well as the ability to actually be able to sell equipment back to other crafters because of it. In other words, once it's bought, good luck selling it back for any cash, assuming someone would actually want to buy it. But why buy something that's not useful for them?
Although I understand this is homebrew, and if you think it will work for your games, go for it, but I'm telling you that this sort of pathway leads to cheese of all sorts if put at the wrong table. (I would've said right table, but that is to garner the interest of something that can be good.)
Remember that in default Golarion, crafters that can craft certain items are not exactly rare.
It's not every second person you run into on the street, but they're not rare. As an example to make a +1 sword you need a CL3 caster. 2nd Level spellcasting is available in a Hamlet (that's 21-60 population). Granted, not everyone of those might actually craft/enchant items, but it's a rough estimate on how common actual spellcasters are.
CL 9 casters (aka 5th level spells) for +3 weapons you'd find in a Large Town already (2000-5000 people). You might not necessarily find a +3 weapon crafter in that town, but you surely will find a few that make +1 or +2 weapons. And that's just a Large Town. Go to a Metropolis with 50k+ people and you probably find all of them.
So, with all these people available, there is this thing called competition. No single crafter is gonna have a monopoly.
If I pay 10000 gp for a magic sword from the crafter CheatYaMaximus, then get it stolen soon after, and then find out that crafter BuildsItCheaper, could have sold me the same sword for 7,000 gp, but with a build-in anti-theft.
Do you really think I'll EVER take my return business to CheatYaMaximus again?
One reason in Golarion that it works this way is that it seems most crafters seem to produce items "blindly" for the various M-Marts out there. Which is an odd business model, but considering how well stocked some of those shops are, I can't think of another way.
And if you mass-produce stuff, then limiting it to "Only females between the ages of 25 and 39, with blue eyes and a LG alignment" won't find as many customers as one without, even if it is more expensive.
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If I pay 10000 gp for a magic sword from the crafter CheatYaMaximus, then get it stolen soon after, and then find out that crafter BuildsItCheaper, could have sold me the same sword for 7,000 gp, but with a build-in anti-theft.
Do you really think I'll EVER take my return business to CheatYaMaximus again?
CheatYaMaximus saw you as a sucker and a newcomer, and you bit a 10kgp scam. He's not planning on seeing you again, he has enough regular business (or regular suckers) satisfied with his work to keep in business, and so far nobody's noticed the sell-and-steal game.
RPG games typically hand-wave artisan quality and gives everything a generic quantification. It also generally assumes honesty in the seller and competancy in the crafter. In reality, both of these factor in, as well as their ability to market their skills, which can generate sales despite being a lower quality. In business, you can compete (honestly) in either price, quality, or service. Successful businesses focus on one of these.
Just like how you have two gas stations across the street from one another, one selling gas for 3 cents higher, yet there are still cars being filled up on both sides. Maybe the 'higher price' is more convenient, maybe it's a higher quality, maybe their customers are convinced of one or the other. Maybe one still has a guy that runs out and cleans your window for you.
More economics.. yay. Now I gotta stab something.
CheatYaMaximus saw you as a sucker and a newcomer, and you bit a 10kgp scam. He's not planning on seeing you again,
I think I might have quoted the wrong post of Darksol the Painbringer, I was refering to the part about him saying that Crafters have a vested interest in not customizing stuff, so it's easier to steal and therefor create return customers.
On top of that, the crafter would rather not have stuff be personalized to a person so that the thieves of the world stealing the items of the things that he crafted would actually give him return customers.
That's the one.
I was mentioning, there are so many crafters out there, that it would practically be enough for a few of them to say "We make stuff cheaper AND harder to steal!", for others to be forced to do the same.
Or at least not be able to rely on thieves for return business.
On the other hand with a win margin of 100% it would be enough for a few crafters to say "Pff, 25% is good enough" to basically make the entire system crash in on itself - so trying to think too much about the logic behind the PF economics will just give you headaches and nothing else.
What about the problem if the user changes alignment? Changes of heart and all that.
Plus, magical items can often turn into heirlooms. While you try to teach your child how to follow the same philosophy as you...maybe they end up a bit off (LN rather than LG, or even just N). Not far enough that it is an actual problem morally...but enough that it would ruin the sword.
Also, there is no guarantee that the thief is going to end up being a CE bastard. Maybe the local inn keeper is hard on his luck (a debt that has loan sharks eyeing his daughters), and then a rich man sleeps in the in with an item that can pay the loan 10 times over. Tempting. Maybe a local farm boy sees a knight taking a nap in the field, and thinks the sword looks cool, and he wants to use it to take revenge on the goblins that killed his Pa.
Most humans are some form of neutral. Even among thieves, there is going to be at least some tendency towards that. And even if they can't use the item themselves.... there are unscrupulous middle men that can sell it to people who are of the right alignment.
Overall- while I can see it working on commission (since people are looking for savings and not exactly going to buy the best product), a crafter that just churns out some of the common goods (+1 swords, +1 armor, +1 cloaks of resistance, etc.) is going to just make things that appeal to the general public. While specialized goods have an appeal...they also tend to sit around in your stock for longer periods of time. That means that all that money is tied up in a good until you find the right buyer.
Nothing wrong with crafting an item with a family crest, a seal, or even an inscription. Such gifts (which they usually are) are usually commissioned work on top of the value of the item, not an item value reduction.
Aligned weapons are not really something that would be just cranked out. While valid RAW, I find it more appropriate to tie Aligned weapons to being made by strongly aligned creators (priest crafted), or having been indelibly associated with strongly aligned acts (such as an enchanted executioners axe becoming lawful aligned after several generations of use), or associated with an aligned outsider.
Otherwise, you could pretty much say it's illegal to enchant Chaotic or Evil weapons since they are, by design, intended to harm law enforcement and civilians if they are that easily created.
And, to respond. A smart trader walks up to a wizard and offers a business deal to split the profit margin if the Wizard makes a bunch of enchanted weapons, the trader will handle finding buyers. The wizard gets an up-front profit margin and may sell off 5 times as many swords at half the profit margin, getting him more in sales than if he just sat on the stock. The trader now has valuables to ply his trade and take them to known adventurer hubs where he can hawk the wares and espouse the virtues of his products, including those swords. The better the tradesmen's reputation, the faster the swords sell.
He may even cue the Wizard into making enchanted Guisarme Volge's because of rumors of a blossoming conflict, and these reach weapons are suddenly in fashion since they're wielded by many of the elite guardsmen. The tradesman keeps the enchanter up to speed on trends so that he doesn't spend time making things that won't sell as well, further earning his keep and strengthening the business relationship. Perhaps the tradesman, and by proxy, the enchanter build a reputation. Now suddenly the enchanter is in demand!
The other wizard? He's still sitting on that one sword he made last year. That tradesman? He's running around with his pack-goat going "Hey, how's that sword holding up? Check this one out, it's on fire! Interested?"
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The reason personalized magic items are rare, is momentum. Magic items have been around in RPGs longer than these rules for personalizing them. So published items tend not to be personalized.
Second, it's a bad rule. Personalizing items is as much a feature as it is a bug, so giving a cost reduction for it isn't smart game design.
There's going to be a Weapons of Legacy concept based magic items called Ancestral Relics that will be available in the Kaidan GM's setting guide for the Rite Publishing Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) where all such items, not just weapons, contain the trapped soul of one of your ancestors which powers the item. So these ancestral relics are very much personalized to just your bloodline family members and only functions as a masterwork item in the hands of a non-family member. Of course its 3PP and not released yet.
To clarify my point, I'm not talking about the crafter sending some group of mooks out to steal his weapons back to recreate his profit scheme. I'm talking more about how generic adventuring groups end up fighting bandits or thieves or some other goofs, etc. not related to the crafter. If their items get stolen and they need to go buy new ones, they'll go back to that same crafter, and he gets the same price. (It certainly would make a good low-level subquest if it was what people originally thought I said, but that's not what I meant.)
We're also ignoring what would be the case if the opposite repercussion is also true; let's say the BBEG has items crafted in the same fashion as the PCs, in that it's an item that only he can use. So PCs, with their current gear, defeat the BBEG, and get his loot. As it turns out, they can't use it, so they try to sell it. As they go to sell it, the merchants look at it and say "Nope, I can't resell this, there's no market to be made on it. Sorry, but you're gonna have to destroy it with the Fires of Mt. Doom in order to get rid of it."
If you make magic items function when only in the hands of a specific person or whatnot, it makes their resale value equate to 0. The good thing is that once you make your item, it's basically guaranteed to be with you for your entire career, and when you acquire more gold, you can keep on making it better. (Weapons of Legacy is the closest thing to stuff being like this.) The bad thing is that if you find other enemies with valuable stuff like that, if they're enemies who aren't complete idiots, they'll take the same precautions as the PCs, perhaps even with specific plot devices (such as a device that can open and shut a portal to one of the other planes of doom and sadness), meaning if the PCs manage to beat the BBEG, he can still win in the end, resulting in "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies." A dick move? Sure, but when we're talking endgame, with BBEG wizards of 45+ Intelligence, when you aren't having them take precautions like that with all the scrying and his super-high intelligence, you're playing them like a certain guy whose IQ is at levels almost unheard of, but still gets beaten by anthropomorphous animals of speeds that make Lightning Bolts feel like snails.
Of my Ancestral Relics concept, several things keep them limited. First all the relics were created over 500 years ago, and during the creation of the last such item, an act of regicide was committed with a Daimyo's soul locked into the item, which caused a great stir in the Shogunate, and it was then ruled that all the secrets involved in the creation of such items were burned, its creators punished, and the process used to create them disappeared. No new ancestral relics can be created. Second in time of their creation a little over 100 such items exist distributed to various noble houses, samurai clans, recognized commoner families and some guilds and yakuza gangs - usually one item per family. With millions of people living in Kaidan, ancestral relics are very rare items, cannot sold or purchased, is inherited in the family.
So the problems you're discussing regarding personalized items don't really apply to ancestral relics.
Re resale value of personalized items: I think it's possible to alter magic items with a bit of magical effort. So, if an item only works for specific types of people, then with a bit of effort the PCs can get it changed to suit them.
RE Genius BBEG: I do play them as geniuses. Or as close to as I can. Just like dragons.
I don't agree with the idea of changing restrictions. To me, that's a part of how the item was created, bound together with the magic that empowers it. Otherwise, why not get a Holy Avenger and "fix" it so it can be used by a non-paladin?
why not get a Holy Avenger and "fix" it so it can be used by a non-paladin?
I'd think Paladins would want other Good people to be able to use their nukeswords. Would certainly help against the infernal armies.
Your hold on economics is about as good as mine, Darksol. However, there is a flaw in your conception. If every item was personalized, there would be NO resale market. Adventurers wouldn't be finding items in an ancient casket for their own use. Every item would have to be custom made. Every time an adventurer dies, their items are effectively removed from the market. Ask Gamestop or EA how much the resale market hurts their bottom line.
I mean, there's a 30% cost reduction for limiting something to an alignment or class.
Given how expensive and time consuming magic item creation is, and how its limited to actual craftsmen and can't be mass produced, surely the majority of magic item creators tailor their items to a specific customer?It's cheaper to produce and safer for the customer too. If your shiny new magic sword can only be used by members of your particular knightly order, why would anyone try to steal it?
If that Magnifying Glass of Searing Light can only be used by Good aligned beings, surely that alleviates some of the worry that it could be stolen and used by your enemies?Weapons and armour especially, if I was commissioning some for my round table knights, I would make sure they couldn't be used by my opponents.
Thinking I may introduce this as a thing in my games. And introduce a ritual spell or something that lets someone transfer "ownership" of an item over to them. For a cost, like identify or something.
Un-rechargeable consumable items will be exempt I think. Potions end the such.
Thoughts?
because it's a game.
I use and allow exactly what you're talking about in my games. If someone commissions an item, it will be keyed to them in some way (most often by race, alignment, gender, or ability).
Gender? Really? Like, I have this sword here, and it can only be used by men? What kind of crazy sword is that? Is it like a woman bane sword?
(Not that the elixir of transition doesn't exist in Pathfinder, it's in the ACG, but anyway)
Screw it, let's just have a magic portcullis that only opens for dudes and call it the gamer gate.
The times it's been gender were wondrous items in the form of clothing. Although those would be fine by any other restriction as well.
My two coppers on the subject -
In game explanation - item legacies. Part of the cost isn't just for the person purchasing the item, it is the thought that such items may be passed on to future generations. There is no guarantee that adventurers or nobility would have progeny of the same class or alignment as the parents (and those two are likely the major customer base).
Out of character - this makes resale values for loot become more complex than it already is, and can be used to cheat the system.
Another thought - perhaps making such protective features cost more for added protective measures(anyone not of a certain class, alignment, or individual would treat the item as a cursed item rather than the intended item?).
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Because the game is not designed in such a manner as to have magic weapons made and sold like that.
Also in most games, and in official campaigns settings magical items being stolen is not really a problem.
If a setting assumes people will rob magic item shops then I would assume the setting would have guilds and/or magic ways to deter/prevent theft.
Now you might say "Then rob the adventurers". The problem here is that adventures are professional(assessment of skill not legality) killers, and if you misjudge the mark(person/group you intend to rob) they may end up killing you and taking your stuff.
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Q: Can UMD be used to bypass the personalizations?
I think that the answer is yes.
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If you'd like a home-brewed rule, I have a few really easy suggestions that strongly deters most would-be magic-crafters from crafting such things at a discount:
1) The spellcraft DC increases for each "corner cut" - yeah, you're doing it for less expense, but it's harder to make sure it doesn't just end up cursed and worthless as a result. This is the primary reason for avoiding making custom items, especially among the crafting adepts who often have to +5 their spellcraft due to something not on their list anyway. I'd suggest a +5, but if it's too low, you could +7 or +8 or even +10 the spellcraft DC.
2) The spellcraft DC increases for each "step" you are away from what you're crafting for. +5 is the basics, but, for example, +5 for each step away from an alignment can add up really quickly, while +5 for being a different gender, +5 for not having a specific skill, etc. Effectively, you're crafting for something you can't and don't relate to (because it is different from yourself). Hence, it's harder to come to grips with what, exactly, the thing is that you're crafting for. As a result, it's more likely that you're going to make a mistake somewhere in the crafting, and create something unwanted instead.
3) The spellcraft DC increases by +5 in addition to any other increase due to the restrictions and specializations. This one is the real killer. There are certainly some out there who won't balk at a +10 or even +15 to a spellcraft DC... but the vast, vast majority of creators will.
I sometimes use the options above, and say they stack. This has the benefit of making the in-game world mostly balance out, and, of course, when used, I vary it based on the character doing the creating.
You're still likely to get more "elf-blades" among the elves, and "orc-blades" among the orcs (but you're less likely to get more "orc-blades" because they're less intelligent and thus have a harder time with the increased DC). This also has the extra side-effect of allowing elves to kind of look a bit more haughty and exclusive (as they can afford to make their blades more haughty and exclusive) while allowing most adventurers to come across ancient stuff from evil creatures they've killed that allow them to use it.
And, finally,
Q: Can UMD be used to bypass the personalizations?
While I think it's RAW (it certainly seems to be, though I could be wrong), I certainly allow such things to work.
Hence, it's a lot of danger for a significant benefit... that might not work as intended.
Much easier and much safer to just go with standard crafting.
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Q: Can UMD be used to bypass the personalizations?
I think it depends on the personalization, but even then it would be something a buyer may not want to pay full price for if he was trying to sell the item. The OP is working under the opinion that the game works like movies and the magic item will be kept for life.
There is also the opinion that your enemy will not have your alignment or class abilities. Evil people as an example are probably going to be killed by more evil people than anyone else. Even in this setting it would just make evil people target evil people more, if item stealing is common.
Even so, why would a crafter that, if it weren't for somebody personal, such as a family member, friend, etc. actually hurt their business by crafting for what is essentially a cheaper price? If they did, they certainly wouldn't be selling it for cheaper, especially by RAW. On top of that, the crafter would rather not have stuff be personalized to a person so that the thieves of the world stealing the...
There's a funny scene in the movie Clerks that pertains to this. It discusses contractor ethics, and the construction workers still on board the second Death Star when it was destroyed by the "good guys".
When the United States blew up Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and firebombed Dresden, all non-strategic cities, equally little thought was given to the American POW's there either.Even so, why would a crafter that, if it weren't for somebody personal, such as a family member, friend, etc. actually hurt their business by crafting for what is essentially a cheaper price? If they did, they certainly wouldn't be selling it for cheaper, especially by RAW. On top of that, the crafter would rather not have stuff be personalized to a person so that the thieves of the world stealing the...There's a funny scene in the movie Clerks that pertains to this. It discusses contractor ethics, and the construction workers still on board the second Death Star when it was destroyed by the "good guys".
It being the US, we probably thought they'd evolve into the Toxic Defender[s] (TM, no seriously watch that movie).
My above described ancestral relics for Kaidan are near artifact items, so I don't think UMD by a non-bloodline wielder will activate any powers within, these items plainly state that non-bloodline wielders use such items as masterwork only. Unlike weapons of legacy, ancestral relics do not require cost in XP or GP for the activation of leveled powers, rather minimun honor score (using Kaidan's honor system), minimum class level, and event triggers (required actions to be performed by wielder is necessary to activate next level powers). So these are very different than most magic items - its is 3PP and it is specific to Kaidan only. These items are considered priceless and cannot be legally bought and sold. Likely some are in the hands of non-bloodline houses as secreted treasure desired by the house it was designed for - wars are fought over the repossession of such items.
That's an entirely diffrent kettle of fish, or plate of sushi, than what the OP is referring to. He's referring to common magic items.
Well its the closest I have regarding any such personalized items, and is why I mentioned it. Common "personalized items" don't exist in any of my settings - so I cannot comment about that.
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I mean, there's a 30% cost reduction for limiting something to an alignment or class.
Given how expensive and time consuming magic item creation is, and how its limited to actual craftsmen and can't be mass produced, surely the majority of magic item creators tailor their items to a specific customer?It's cheaper to produce and safer for the customer too. If your shiny new magic sword can only be used by members of your particular knightly order, why would anyone try to steal it?
If that Magnifying Glass of Searing Light can only be used by Good aligned beings, surely that alleviates some of the worry that it could be stolen and used by your enemies?Weapons and armour especially, if I was commissioning some for my round table knights, I would make sure they couldn't be used by my opponents.
Thinking I may introduce this as a thing in my games. And introduce a ritual spell or something that lets someone transfer "ownership" of an item over to them. For a cost, like identify or something.
Un-rechargeable consumable items will be exempt I think. Potions end the such.
Thoughts?
Though it's debatable as to how much this holds true in Pathfinder but in 3.x, the price reductions were not part of the standard rules. They were included in the SRD but they were not a standard part of the item creation rules. They were found in a "Behind the Screen" section of the DMG discussing item creation, and earlier in the book it notes that everything found in the "Behind the Screen" windows are not part of the rules.
It discussed that such price adjustments were to aid in making themed items (such as holy avengers or robes of the archmagi, some musical instruments, etc). They weren't ever intended to be applied to just any ol' thing, and serve as an explanation for why some magic items are cheaper than their apparent benefits would suggest due to their various drawbacks.
This is a shame as well because people tend to ignore this and their ignoring this has been one of the major sources of hatred for the magic item creation system since 3.5. You can probably still find Artificer guides that recommend using the cost reductions alongside feats and features that reduce cost to create magic items at rock-bottom prices (like 10% of the item's cost or less kind of low), but such builds are technically illegal by 3.5 rules.
It's harder to defend the system in Pathfinder however as it seems they included it in the main ruleset. At which point it comes down to simply whether or not your GM will allow your new magic item as designed or if the GM will ask for revisions. Despite being a big proponent of magic item creation, you'd almost assuredly get your submission rejected if you were casually using such reductions.