Double shield is a rare, but realworld fighting style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
A Real World Fighting Style? A rather slow demonstration of exercises I'd say. I bet it builds amazing strength.
If you can find me a contemporary illustration of it being used in anger I'll accept it's a real world fighting style. It certainly never shows up on any of the Roman fresco's I've studied, or Greek vases etc.
I think shield fighting is another fantasy trope like studded leather or armour spikes - not as obvious as Magic and Dragons but still made up. We play a fantasy game, these things crop up.
Dual wielding, two-handing and finessing shields though seem more of an exploit of the rules as written than owt else. Doesn't fly in our games. But hey each to their own.
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@CountofUndolpho:
Look, we get it. You are never going to see a shield as anything but some kind of useless weight on you arm.
You can keep your opinion, ignore the rules, and use houserules.
Just don't try to tell me your skewed opinion of the shield is RAW.
It's not.
By RAW, the shield is a weapon.
I disagree with your interpretation of RAW for the shield and think RAI supports my position.
"You are never going to see a shield as anything but some kind of useless weight on you arm."
is a strawman argument and nothing to do with any opinion I have stated. I use Shield bash regularly on at least one of my Pathfinder characters, 2WF with scimitar.
It's as much an "exploit" as a Rogue two-handing a Longsword.
What? I don't even understand what this strawman pertains to?
What's the Archetype? Shielded Fighter states
These fighting school benefits apply when wielding a weapon and a shield simultaneously.
(illustrative of RAI?)
So you don't mean that one. Is it in one of the splatbooks?
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Am I arguing against a completely different argument?
Or, are you just wrongly using "strawman", as it is often overused, to somehow dismiss anything I say.
Is it not your stance that the Shield is not a weapon, but can be used as a weapon, in the same way a tin can, or beer mug can?
Shield Champion.
Advanced Class Guide is not a "splatbook".
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I said dual shield was rare in the real world. Obviously it wouldn't be depicted all over the place. It's existence in a Chinese martial art is a proof of concept if nothing else. Someone in the real world thought it would be a good idea and then passed it on to other people who must have thought it was a good idea. In the real world.
Am I arguing against a completely different argument?
In parts yes
Or, are you just wrongly using "strawman", as it is often overused, to somehow dismiss anything I say.
No I'm using Strawman as in "to misrepresent someone's argument to make it easier to attack"
Is it not your stance that the Shield is not a weapon, but can be used as a weapon
Yes but I would say "..., but can be used to shield bash" rather than "...as a weapon,.."
in the same way a tin can, or beer mug can?
No, this is a strawman bit, a shield can shield bash and has specific rules for such. A beer mug would be an improvised weapon and follow the rules for improvised weapons.
Shield Champion -
...martial discipline relying on only her hand-to-hand fighting skills and her ever-present shield
I thought that splatbooks referred to none core rulebooks?
I said dual shield was rare in the real world. Obviously it wouldn't be depicted all over the place. It's existence in a Chinese martial art is a proof of concept if nothing else. Someone in the real world thought it would be a good idea and then passed it on to other people who must have thought it was a good idea. In the real world.
Not all martial art styles and weapons are actually meant to be used to fight many are purely exercises and just for training/exhibitions, but yes I concede your point on proof of concept.
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I thought that splatbooks referred to none core rulebooks?
While there is no hard rule regarding what is and is not a splatbook, for Pathfinder, the general consensus seems to be that if it is in the Pathfinder RPG line (CRB, APG, UC, UM, UE, UCam, MA, ACG, ARG, GMG, NCod, Bestiaries 1-4, MCod) it's not a splatbook, since these books form the "core" of the Pathfinder RPG (as opposed to the Golarion-specific stuff).
By that line of reasoning, the Advanced Class Guide is most definitely NOT a splatbook.
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I always assumed splat was in reference to how short they are. They make a *splat* when dropped and not a *thunk*.
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It refers to an asterisk * the books were referred to as *books to denote them being non-core.
I was going on the old AD&D definition which was if it wasn't in the original 3 books it was a splat. Though I'm unsure now I'm thinking on it if we actually used the term at the time or picked it up later...memory and old age eh?
Maybe I'm missing something here amid all the shield basher-bashing, but it seems to me that letting the Bashing property count as the +1 would be detrimental.
*Lots of math later*
Oh. I was wrong. I was thinking the whole enhancement bonus would end up stacking, but that wouldn't really make sense, would it?
Which is kinda why this can't work. A +1 shield enhancement bonus costs 1,000 gp. To reach stuff like Frost and Anarchic, you're supposed to add up the total bonus of what you've spent. This doesn't feel like it will add up tidily.
Anyways, dual shields are awesome. It's a kickass-looking fighting style, and it's not half as silly as some of the shit Pathfinder characters pull, anyways.
A shield enhancement is an armor enhancement.
Frost and Anarchic are weapon enhancements.
They do not stack, nor even overlap. A Shield +1 does not qualify for Frost or Anarachic, nor does Bashing give it the +1 Needed.
It must first be enhanced as a +1 Weapon before you can add Frost or Anarchic as a weapon enhancement.
The totals of costs are completely separate.
An Uber Shield, which is a +5 Spiked Shield of Bashing, +5 Defender, costs 36k gp on the SHield side (+5, +1 Bashing = +6) and 72k on the weapon side (+5, +1 for Defender) for a total of 108k.
It's not a +12 item. It's a +6 & +6 Item using different scales, and adding them together. And unlike, say, stacking ability score enhancement bonuses on a single item (Str+Dex+con, Etc), its not subject to the +50% rule, either.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, I'm referring to the original post.
He's using two shields, and will go guardian on one and defender on the other...assuming that the bonuses from each will not stack (i.e. defender on one shield does not stack with defender on the other)
If they DO...then at will he can potentially get something like +14 AC or +14 Saves. Without giving up any bonus to hit/damage. It'll cost a lot of money, but still!
===Aelryinth
Keep in mind that there is only one shield item slot on a character. So one shield always has to be declared as a weapon. And you can only get shieldy goodness out of one shield.
** spoiler omitted **
The links aren't working.
Since it's the cheapest +5 weapon you can possibly get, he's not too worried, Melkiador.
==Aelryinth
Since it's the cheapest +5 weapon you can possibly get, he's not too worried, Melkiador.
==Aelryinth
Cheap in gold but expensive in feats. Although it is pretty good if you are a ranger. And can wait till level 6. What I'm saying is that it takes a lot of time and effort to get that.
Sooo dose the shield allow for both 10/10 enchantment? And can be used with guardian. Can't you do the same thing with the klar?
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You can do the same with klar, but also again because a klar is a one handed slashing weapon and a light spiked shield light piercing weapon. So a klar could be enchanted as +10/+10/+10.
You can do the same with klar, but also again because a klar is a one handed slashing weapon and a light spiked shield light piercing weapon. So a klar could be enchanted as +10/+10/+10.
You are a sick sick lizard man. I never thought of it this way. The klar is now my fav weapon.
Klar
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard but but a skill smith can craft one entirely out of metal.
Benefit: A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes. A metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
Weapon Feature(s): special
=============
From the PFSRD. I.e. a klar is nothing more then a variant spiked shield. So, no, just +10/+10, and yes, you can do this, Arcanine.
No +10/+10/+10. Note: This is not a double weapon. Even if you allowed the slashing blade to be a separate item, the whole it all one weapon, so if you enhanced it as a weapon, it would affect both the blade and spiked shield as one item. This would be akin to treating an axe blade and the hammer backing it as one weapon, also.
is there a monkish double weapon with a shield in the middle of it? You might be able to do a triple +10 with that thing.
personally, I've always wondered if the weapons with a big guard that gave you +1 Shield AC could be enhanced up higher...
==Aelryinth
Klar
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard but but a skill smith can craft one entirely out of metal.Benefit: A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes. A metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
Weapon Feature(s): special
=============
From the PFSRD. I.e. a klar is nothing more then a variant spiked shield. So, no, just +10/+10, and yes, you can do this, Arcanine.
No +10/+10/+10. Note: This is not a double weapon. Even if you allowed the slashing blade to be a separate item, the whole it all one weapon, so if you enhanced it as a weapon, it would affect both the blade and spiked shield as one item. This would be akin to treating an axe blade and the hammer backing it as one weapon, also.
is there a monkish double weapon with a shield in the middle of it? You might be able to do a triple +10 with that thing.
personally, I've always wondered if the weapons with a big guard that gave you +1 Shield AC could be enhanced up higher...
==Aelryinth
Could you use the thunder and fang build, and use a buckler? Just to get the guardian and defending :)
A klar is a one handed slashing weapon. That means it can count for things like vorpal and slashing grace.
A klar counts as a spiked light shield, which is a light piercing weapon. That means it qualifies for things like weapon finesse and Skewering.
This only really makes sense if the klar is a 10/10/10.
Keep in mind that there is only one shield item slot on a character. So one shield always has to be declared as a weapon. And you can only get shieldy goodness out of one shield.
With how Aelryinth explained what it entails, I'm fine with it. Since I can get away with having +5 enhancement to my attacks while stacking Defending/Guardian to the brim, and some of the other good stuff, the build doesn't absolutely fall apart. Obviously, I only get one Shield Bonus source, but enhancing the AC on the other shield is still a much cheaper alternative to increase attack and damage rolls, since I'm essentially only paying half price.
Since I will be taking the Witchguard and Infiltrator for the first 10 levels (Ranger archetypes) followed by 10 levels of Invulnerable Urban Barbarian, I will be getting the Shield Master at 6th level as expected. I'll be posting the relevant build here soon enough.
So here is the build I originally planned for the PC in question:
Alignment: True Neutral
Racial Traits: Bonus Feat, Heart of the Fields, +2 to One Ability Score
Character Traits: Magical Knack (Ranger), Reactionary
Class: Infiltrator Witchguard Ranger 10/Invulnerable Urban Rager 10
Favored Class Bonus: Ranger (1 Skill Point)
Progression: Ranger for the first 10 levels, Barbarian for the remaining 10.
20 Point Buy
Strength: 8 (-2 points)
Dexterity: 20 [18 + 2] (17 points)
Constitution: 12 (2 points)
Intelligence: 12 (2 point)
Wisdom: 14 (5 points)
Charisma: 7 (-4 points)
Feats (* = Bonus Feat)
1*: Weapon Finesse
1: Improved Shield Bash
2*: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Piranha Strike
3*: Bodyguard
5: Quick Draw
6*: Shield Master
7: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7*: In Harm's Way
9: Double Slice
10*: Bashing Finish
11: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13: Improved Critical (Quickdraw Spiked Light Shield)
15: Combat Reflexes
17: Hammer the Gap
19: ???
Skills Points: Ranger = 6 + 3 = 9 X 10 = 90. Barbarian = 4 + 2 = 6 X 10 = 60.
Total, 150 ranks, 7.5 average per level.
Skills: Perception (MAX), Survival (MAX), Acrobatics (MAX), Knowledge [Nature] (MAX), Climb (5), Swim (5), ??? (60 skill points remaining)
The key things are:
-It's a tank-ish build that includes Shields, TWF, and is Dexterity-based. This heavily restricts the character's ability to actually carry things, but since you'll be using Mithril by the endgame, it's not an issue to carry around the items that you will be using. Additionally, this makes any Reflex-based attack a joke (as you get Evasion by 9th level), armor doesn't become an absolute necessity until the late game for special enhancements, and you won't be a complete gimp when it comes to Touch Attacks. All nice benefits for a tank-like character.
-I do get access to some spells, but they are limited in casting power, since I am only a 10th level Ranger caster. The biggest thing is that I can actually cast Haste on myself when I hit 10th level, and it lasts for 9 rounds, though it's only 1/day; the fact it affects everyone in range is actually a nice 'rally' sort of thing I could do as a tank, and it'd free the casters up to do what they do best.
-Later down the road I become an Invulnerable Urban Rager as well, which means my Rage doesn't give me penalties to AC (but also no Will Save Bonus, but that's what the Adaptions from Infiltrator do, thanks Iron Will for free when I need it!), and I can configure it to Dexterity, which means my AC, Reflex Saves, to-hit, and damage will increase accordingly, and I can swap it to hit points if I really need to. Combined with Rage Powers enabling me to essentially get a Pounce capstone, I don't give up BAB for this, making this a very solid class choice.
Some other questions/concerns:
-The stats, although well-rounded, aren't exactly appropriate for early-level gameplay, since it will be a while until I can get Agile shields to appropriate my damage. I'm debating on cutting the Human Bonus Feat and the Heart of the Fields to just bring my Strength back to 10 (no penalties at the beginning) and cut back on my Intelligence to bring my Wisdom to 16, but I'm not sure if losing that bonus feat will be worth it, since it delays the rest of my feat progression. The Heart of the Fields I could do without, though.
-The feat progression seems a little out of place, but it's difficult to balance with the core feats of the build to be effective along with the feats that are a 'must-have' for any class. I'm trying to find ways to optimize it (such as delay Improved Shield Bash until 2nd level for the bonus, and take TWF for 3rd level), but it's not easy, given the ramifications. The alternative is that I go into Fighter instead of Barbarian to help make the feat progression more cohesive and come online sooner, but I lose a lot of neat class features, as well as the ability to pump my Dexterity to crazy levels (By 11th level, I can be chilling at a 28 Dexterity, increasing to 32 with Rage).
-Skills are a difficult thing to find that would work well with a Ranger/Barbarian-type class. Being able to max out 7 different skills as a TWF Shield tank type really brings some out-of-combat utility to the character. I've found quite a few that would be helpful, as well as the hybrid that I will split my remaining points up with (because you need to be prepared for those anti-magic defenses somehow). The ideas I came up with are Disable Device, Stealth, and Knowledge [Geography]. Are they good enough, or should I select other things?
The links aren't working.** spoiler omitted **
Damn. How's this?
The new one works. The sling one does not. (I know how to get to that thread, I just figured you'd like to know.) :)
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Perhaps old age, and a favor for older editions, has left you with a bias.
It's something to consider.
In other words "you are wrong because you are old and biased". Which could be taken as an ad hominem attack, or as a convenient way to dismiss my points - purely because they come from me.
My editions of Pathfinder are digital and therefore the latest editions.
Yeah...
Perhaps old age, and a favor for older editions, has left you with a bias.
... this was needlessly harsh.
Lots of stuff saying Count of Undolpho you are wrong
TLDR all of it sorry!
Splatbooks in PFRPG are all but the CRB and Bestiary as they are all you need to play.
The shields in the vid seem more akin to scizores than to normal shields.
And I disagree with your interpretation of the RAW mainly due to the number of times shields and shield bashes are specifically referenced within feats, descriptions and archetypes (and things like having ACP). For example Weapon Finesse Feat.
A klar is a one handed slashing weapon. That means it can count for things like vorpal and slashing grace.
A klar counts as a spiked light shield, which is a light piercing weapon. That means it qualifies for things like weapon finesse and Skewering.
This only really makes sense if the klar is a 10/10/10.
It's not a double weapon, or it would be described as such. Thus, the weapon enhancement on the shield would also apply to the blade, the same way you can smash with the hilt of your sword and still receive the magic bonus, or smash with the hammer side of your pick. In effect, IF your version applies, it's a s/p weapon, and it's merely a 10/10.
When you find the quote that calls it a double weapon, call me. But your own language that it 'counts as' means 'all in one', not '+ this additional'.
==Aelryinth
"An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
It doesn't have to be listed as a double weapon, because it's already covered in the description.
Shield Spikes are enchanted as weapons +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage with +5 to special abilities.
the actual shield can be enchanted for +5 enhancement bonus to AC and +5 to special abilities.
even though its one item you enchant it twice for attacking bonus and ac bonus.
No. You have to be precise here.
A Shield or SPiked Shield can be enchanted as a weapon.
Shield Spikes increase the damage of a shield by one size category and change the damage to piercing.
You don't enchant the spikes. You enhance the shield. Spikes don't even change the material type of the damage, technically!
==Aelryinth
"An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
It doesn't have to be listed as a double weapon, because it's already covered in the description.
Your first paragraph has nothing to do with your second.
If it's a double weapon with two weapons to enhance, it would say so...all double weapons are listed as such.The klar 'counts as' a light spiked shield. It's not, 'in addition, a klar includes a light spiked shield'. That means slashing weapon and shield attachment are 'one item'. Not 'two items'.
See the difference? The first one is that the Klar is all one item, and the second is that it is two items.
It is not two items, so its a 10/10 weapon, with a small difference in that it can do slashing damage.
==Aelryinth
It is not two items, so its a 10/10 weapon, with a small difference in that it can do slashing damage.
That's only part of the difference. The biggest difference is that it can be wielded as a one-handed slashing weapon or as a small piercing weapon. This is much different than merely being able to deal two different damage types. And I'd say that double weapon is actually insufficient to what this weapon is, and that's why it's not listed as such.
Another reasons klar can't be listed as a double weapon is that you could wield one at one size larger making it a two handed weapon. And if it were a double weapon you could then dual wield with it using the slashing and piercing attacks.
So really the lack of a double tag has nothing to do with how this weapon is enchanted.
I thought the term "splatbook" for D&D originated from the fact that a lot of the books shared similar titles like Complete Warrior, Complete Mage, Complete Adventurer, etc. If you were using regular expressions those books as a group could be referred to as as "Complete *", and the * might look kind of like a rotten tomato which got splatted (possibly by a +10/+10 shield).
I can't vouch for the veracity of that explanation, but that's what I've heard, and it makes sense to me. I guess that would make Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, etc the "splatbooks" of Pathfinder (and maybe Advanced * could be called splatbooks too)
I think that if you use the Defensive enchantment with Shield Master you should take the penalties to attack and damage just as you would without Shield Master. I'd say that whether or not you can sacrifice bonuses gained from the shield's AC boosting enchantment might be a grey area. If you can sacrifice enhancement bonuses gained from Greater Magic Weapon to boost AC then I'd probably allow this too.
Another reasons klar can't be listed as a double weapon is that you could wield one at one size larger making it a two handed weapon. And if it were a double weapon you could then dual wield with it using the slashing and piercing attacks.
So really the lack of a double tag has nothing to do with how this weapon is enchanted.
It still doesn't matter.
The fact that you can change how the item is used has nothing to do with expanding the amount of enhancements it can use. If it counted as a double weapon and had to be enhanced as such, it would explicitly say so.
As it is, you can use it as a one handed slashing weapon or one handed spiked shield (note that counts as a light spiked shield does NOT mean it doesn't suddenly count as a one handed slashing weapon!)
In effect, you have a one-handed slashing or piercing weapon that grants you a shield AC. Nice. Now compare the damage it does to a large spiked shield, which is also a one handed weapon. Notice anything? Like, the same damage and less AC?
It's not a double weapon. It's a weapon that does variable damage depending on whether you use it as a spiked shield for d4 or slashing for d6. Oh, and it grants +1 shield AC. Kind of a slightly inferior large shield, with more damage types.
==Aelryinth
It's not a double weapon, or it would be described as such. Thus, the weapon enhancement on the shield would also apply to the blade, the same way you can smash with the hilt of your sword and still receive the magic bonus,If you attack with the hilt of a sword you do not get the benefit of enhancements with it because it is being used as an improvised weapon.
Actually, from a mechanics standpoint, you do exactly the same damage, it's slashing damage, and you get the enhancement bonuses...exactly the same as if you rammed the point through him. Still slashing, not piercing, and full damage with enhancements.
It's all flavor in the end. Aren't games fun?
now, if you want to do blunt damage, then it'd be an improvised weapon. Just like if you wanted to do piercing. Still get the enhancements, however. Improvised +5 is still +5, even if you aren't proficient with it that way.
==Aelryinth
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Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?
You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).