Ok so I am making a character based loosely on Alister from Dragon Age, He uses a Sword and Shield as many characters do.
But I do not know much about that play style.
I want to make a build focusing on the Sword and Board style of combat, I know its not the best but it can be fun and useful. I was thinking of either Paladin, Warpriest, Brawler (Shield Champion and picking up a Weapon Prof with a Flaw feat (House Rule))
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Slayer is actually pretty good for this because it lets you get Shield Master and Bashing Finish without meeting the prereqs (which means you don't have to put dex to 15 to get them). Use a high crit weapon (like scimitar) as the main hand and BOOM, free shield bashes on every critical.
Ranger can do it too (actually, Slayer is stealing Ranger combat styles here), but then it's favored enemy instead of studied target, and I personally prefer the latter. If you play one of the three listed classes then you can't bypass that pre-req and need 15 dex, which may spread stats thin but it still works.
Ok so I am making a character based loosely on Alister from Dragon Age, He uses a Sword and Shield as many characters do.
But I do not know much about that play style.
I want to make a build focusing on the Sword and Board style of combat, I know its not the best but it can be fun and useful. I was thinking of either Paladin, Warpriest, Brawler (Shield Champion and picking up a Weapon Prof with a Flaw feat (House Rule))
Sword and Board works best in my opinion as a TWF build. Shield slam is a great feat and lets you control the battlefield a little bit. Do some search on the forum ad i bt you will find some fleshed out builds.Out of your list i like the paladin most bc it could really capitalize on TWF with Smite Evil, also gives me more of a Grey Warden feel. Another thing I see on the boards quite often are people who use a quick draw shield and on their turn stow the shield to 2 hand a weapon then quick draw the shield out at the end of their turn so they can have the defensive bonus form the shield. Don't forget about the bashing enhancement and for some extra punch with your shield and of course a shield spike. Good Luck!
Sword and Board works best in my opinion as a TWF build. Shield slam is a great feat and lets you control the battlefield a little bit. Do some search on the forum ad i bt you will find some fleshed out builds.Out of your list i like the paladin most bc it could really capitalize on TWF with Smite Evil, also gives me more of a Grey Warden feel. Another thing I see on the boards quite often are people who use a quick draw shield and on their turn stow the shield to 2 hand a weapon then quick draw the shield out at the end of their turn so they can have the defensive bonus form the shield. Don't forget about the bashing enhancement and for some extra punch with your shield and of course a shield spike. Good Luck!Ok so I am making a character based loosely on Alister from Dragon Age, He uses a Sword and Shield as many characters do.
But I do not know much about that play style.
I want to make a build focusing on the Sword and Board style of combat, I know its not the best but it can be fun and useful. I was thinking of either Paladin, Warpriest, Brawler (Shield Champion and picking up a Weapon Prof with a Flaw feat (House Rule))
Why is a Paladin best to capitalize on TWF with Smite Evil?
I am not familiar with much of the Shield Feat powers, care to give me a rundown on why they are good?|
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Sword and Board works best in my opinion as a TWF build. Shield slam is a great feat and lets you control the battlefield a little bit. Do some search on the forum ad i bt you will find some fleshed out builds.Out of your list i like the paladin most bc it could really capitalize on TWF with Smite Evil, also gives me more of a Grey Warden feel. Another thing I see on the boards quite often are people who use a quick draw shield and on their turn stow the shield to 2 hand a weapon then quick draw the shield out at the end of their turn so they can have the defensive bonus form the shield. Don't forget about the bashing enhancement and for some extra punch with your shield and of course a shield spike. Good Luck!Ok so I am making a character based loosely on Alister from Dragon Age, He uses a Sword and Shield as many characters do.
But I do not know much about that play style.
I want to make a build focusing on the Sword and Board style of combat, I know its not the best but it can be fun and useful. I was thinking of either Paladin, Warpriest, Brawler (Shield Champion and picking up a Weapon Prof with a Flaw feat (House Rule))Why is a Paladin best to capitalize on TWF with Smite Evil?
I am not familiar with much of the Shield Feat powers, care to give me a rundown on why they are good?
Shield Master lets you use the shield's enhancement bonus to AC as an enhancement bonus to attack and damage, as though the shield was also a +(whatever) weapon. This basically lets you gain a magic weapon at half price while also giving you AC out of the deal. In addition, if you *do* have TWFing, you take no attack penalties from TWFing on the shield attacks.
Bashing Finish gives you a free attack any time you crit (must be against the same target), which always adds full strength since it isn't an "off-hand" attack (that only exists for the extra attacks gained from TWFing). Got a keen scimitar? A bit of luck can net you a *lot* of damage. Note that these extra attacks are in addition to any extra you might get from TWFing.
Paladin is decent at TWFing because smite evil is a *very* large flat damage bonus, which means the more attacks you get the better. Cavalier has the same damage bonus, so IMO is a better choice if you're not playing a stereotypical campaign wherein almost everything you fight is evil.
if that is the case, why not Swashbuckler? I mean with Precise Strike they are dealing level to damage with virtually every strike if they really want too. With that combo of using quickdraw Shields to stow the shield as a free action strike with Precise strike and then pull it back so when the opponent attacks back youhave the Ac bonus of the shield?
I know Cavalier has those as well I was just using it as an example.
if that is the case, why not Swashbuckler? I mean with Precise Strike they are dealing level to damage with virtually every strike if they really want too. With that combo of using quickdraw Shields to stow the shield as a free action strike with Precise strike and then pull it back so when the opponent attacks back youhave the Ac bonus of the shield?
I know Cavalier has those as well I was just using it as an example.
Because with TWF you get the damage on two weapons, not just one and the precision damage of the swashbuckler will be blocked at times.
With a sword and board build ranger or slayers, using a quick draw shield if the opponent is good defensively against TWF because of DR then you stow away the shield, and two hand the one handed weapon. With the swashbuckler if your main thing is cut off you are not as effective for that fight, by a larger margin. Not to mention the weak fort and will save.
Why use a quickdraw shield as a swashbuckler when you can use a buckler? They are proficient with the buckler but not with the quickdraw shield.
You could do it with a Cavalier who has only a good Fort.
I mean this, you have quickdraw as a feat for this.
The Cavalier goes to Parry and Reposte someone, the opponent must make an attack against his full AC which includes the shield, The cavalier declares a parry and rolls his attack, which beats the foe. Now he as a free action stows his quickdraw shield and attacks with his precise strike. As his shield is not being held in his other hand, he can add his level to damage and once done redraw the shield as a free action to make his AC go back up by the shield ac bonus (1 in the case of Quickdraw shields)
Cavaliers are proficient with all but Tower Shields.
And this can be done on normal attacks as well.
you can't do free actions during the parry and riposte.
you can't do free actions during the parry and riposte.
Really why can't I? Are you saying I cannot do a witty retort during my block and counter attack?
Talking is specifically called out as a free action that you can take on other peoples' turns. Other free actions are only on your turn.
And really, I think talking is a bit closer to an immediate action than a free action, regardless of what the rules say. ;P
if that is the case, why not Swashbuckler? I mean with Precise Strike they are dealing level to damage with virtually every strike if they really want too. With that combo of using quickdraw Shields to stow the shield as a free action strike with Precise strike and then pull it back so when the opponent attacks back youhave the Ac bonus of the shield?
I know Cavalier has those as well I was just using it as an example.
Because with TWF you get the damage on two weapons, not just one and the precision damage of the swashbuckler will be blocked at times.
With a sword and board build ranger or slayers, using a quick draw shield if the opponent is good defensively against TWF because of DR then you stow away the shield, and two hand the one handed weapon. With the swashbuckler if your main thing is cut off you are not as effective for that fight, by a larger margin. Not to mention the weak fort and will save.
Swashbuckler is kind of the other way to go with sword and board- they get decent damage even if they aren't using TWF.
Precise strike is nice, but it actually seems like it is scaled to make up for the fact that you are 1 handing. Basically, comparing a 2 handed power attack from a Full BAB with decent strength against a swashbuckler with power attack/piranha strike, the numbers seem fairly similar. So basically, you are getting 2 handed like damage while getting the benefit of shields.
I know that most people on these boards are loath to even think about power attack with swashbucklers due to their love of the parry, but that hardly changes how the thing is set up. Anyway, I just see it as a chassis that salvages some nice looking but mechanically weak styles: 1 handed weapons, non TWF sword and board, and throwing builds.
Oh, and something to mention- the Daring Champion archetype for cavaliers trades in the mounted stuff for swashbuckler stuff. So you could always go with that.
If they had a Paladin Archetype with the Deeds of a Swashbuckler it would be great.
Still not sure why I cannot use free actions during a special out of turn action.
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There's a fighter archetype one of my players used in a campaign. It is shield based and eventually lets you make free bull rush attempts using the shield. The forced movement from bull rush causes AoOs as well.
The character was a dwarf using axe and shield, and he was awesome. We finished that campaign at level 16.
Can't remember archetype name but it's in the core books in the PRD.
There's a fighter archetype one of my players used in a campaign. It is shield based and eventually lets you make free bull rush attempts using the shield. The forced movement from bull rush causes AoOs as well.
The character was a dwarf using axe and shield, and he was awesome. We finished that campaign at level 16.
Can't remember archetype name but it's in the core books in the PRD.
The Shielded Fighter?
You could do something like take levels in Monk, take 2 weapon fighting, and make your attack routine sword and unarmed strike. You could take 3 levels in Monk, Master of Many Styles, take Snake Style, Snake Fang, Monastic Legacy, and Combat Reflexes. Snake Fang is an attack of opportunity hair trigger: you get an unarmed AoO every time someone attacks you and misses! Since MOMS Monks don't get Flurry anyway, you can use armor and shield with no problem. Monastic Legacy will let you keep growing in your Monk Unarmed Damage as you take more levels in Fighter or something. If you were a Tengu, you'd be automatically proficient in Bastard Sword. You'd have a powerful combination of high AC, high damage and many attacks, some with a regular weapon, some with unarmed strikes. You would be doing blunt, piercing and slashing damage. And you would look more like Alistar.
Oh yes, I used to have similar ideas with the snake style thing. That was back when crane style was...well...good, and made a perfect style to pair up with snake style, since it could take out the higher BAB attacks that would obviously be hits. I vaguely remember hearing something about an errata though (I would love to see if anyone has a link to that discussion).
Even staying as a monk works strangely well. You can get armor and shields just by reducing ACP to 0 (since the nonproficiency penalties would also be 0). So that means most masterwork shields, most masterwork light armor, and even mithral medium armor if you grab the armor expert trait.
While 3/4 BAB and no bonus mechanics hurt, the fact that you likely get up to 4-6 attacks per round at your highest BAB helps (1 from your iteratives, 1 from crane style, 2 from snake style, maybe 2 from normal haste and ki methods).
I liked the idea of using your arm as the 'sword' though, since you could already stab with it due to snake style. Hard to enhance, but hey, snake style already requires unarmed attacks.
Interesting builds for sure but not something I think fits Alister in that way. He is a sword and boarder and has a bit of the holy warrior feel.
I considered Warpriest and taking Weapon Focus Longsword as part of the class and Weapon Focus (Light Shield) to allow for the scared weapon bonuses.
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The Shielded Fighter?There's a fighter archetype one of my players used in a campaign. It is shield based and eventually lets you make free bull rush attempts using the shield. The forced movement from bull rush causes AoOs as well.
The character was a dwarf using axe and shield, and he was awesome. We finished that campaign at level 16.
Can't remember archetype name but it's in the core books in the PRD.
Yeah.
It was the level 5 ability combined with the shield feats that made him so effective. He could main hand with his axe on primary attack, then secondary attack with shield for very little loss to hit due to bonuses he has.
Additionally he synergised nicely as a defender for the barbarian as he provided AC boosts. When he shield bashed he also bull rushed the enemy and they copped AoO from the barbarian
He was lethal, and great as a defensive bulwark at times against ranged foes who were difficult to get at.
Full defense with bonus from class, our caster or archer crouches behind him gaining cover bonus, crouch bonus and the fighters shield bonus. Then archer or caster takes out baddy with far less risk.
One of the best team characters I've seen, and he changed the way some of our players thought about the game.
Might not be your thing, but have a look at it in combination with the shield feat line. Fighters are spoiled for feats.
If they had a Paladin Archetype with the Deeds of a Swashbuckler it would be great.
Still not sure why I cannot use free actions during a special out of turn action.
You speak when it is not your turn but by the rules the other free actions are only allowed on your turn unless they have an exception.
I guess I should be more accurate to say that only immediate actions are allowed out of turns, and the only general free action that gets a pass is speaking. <---That is the rules. Anything else is a GM houserule.
The Phalanx Archetype is also insanely awesome from what I can see. Holding a Polearm/Spear with one hand and a shield in the other. That gives you reach and shield combat. Bullrush someone with the shield to knock them back to ten feet away and then attack them with the Polearm/Spear when they trigger AoO
I don't know if Alister bashes with his shield, but if you aren't dead set on the two weapon fighting aspect of sword-and-board, then there are easy ways to do it without jumping through the 15/17 Dex hoops of the TWF feats.
We have a paladin in our party who uses the Improved Critical (Scimitar) feat and fights sword-and-board one handed. When fighting evil enemies he casts bless weapon and hammers them with auto-crits and smite, which makes for a huge amount of damage. When we're fighting non-evil stuff (which is practically never in our campaign) he abandons the shield and swings two-handed for extra strength and power-attack damage. He's pretty tough to kill.
I just said it was a nice Archetype because you can one hand a reach trip weapon with one hand, allowing you to have a defense and offense at close range (5') and reach (10') which is a nice control option. The improper sized weapon thing is no big deal but doesn't really work for everyones feel also it gives other bonuses.
I dont mind the Two weapon fighting idea, but yeah a Shield and Sword combo is what I need for Alister type build.
Ranger might fit the feel of the alister but not much of a holy warrior style in there.
This is due to Ranger's Style feats right? So a slayer could get these as well but at a level higher?
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I just said it was a nice Archetype because you can one hand a reach trip weapon with one hand, allowing you to have a defense and offense at close range (5') and reach (10') which is a nice control option. The improper sized weapon thing is no big deal but doesn't really work for everyones feel also it gives other bonuses.
I dont mind the Two weapon fighting idea, but yeah a Shield and Sword combo is what I need for Alister type build.
Ranger might fit the feel of the alister but not much of a holy warrior style in there.
This is due to Ranger's Style feats right? So a slayer could get these as well but at a level higher?
Slayer can get the ranger combat style feats at the same level as ranger can, but only gets the first 3 (ranger eventually gets 5).
But if it's for PFS or if you're not going into the lv12+ range then they have the same amount of feats.
Bashing Finish gives you a free attack any time you crit (must be against the same target), which always adds full strength since it isn't an "off-hand" attack (that only exists for the extra attacks gained from TWFing)...
The rules do not support that position. (unless there is an exemption in one of those shield feats that I'm not aware of.)
Using an attack with your offhand only grants 1/2 strength bonus. It has nothing to do with using two-weapon fighting.
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Bashing Finish gives you a free attack any time you crit (must be against the same target), which always adds full strength since it isn't an "off-hand" attack (that only exists for the extra attacks gained from TWFing)...The rules do not support that position. (unless there is an exemption in one of those shield feats that I'm not aware of.)
Using an attack with your offhand only grants 1/2 strength bonus. It has nothing to do with using two-weapon fighting.
I don't remember where the FAQ is specifically, but it has been clarified that off-hand exists solely as a TWFing concept. There is no handedness in pathfinder.
Slayer or ranger do make good sword&boarders, early access to Shield Master is pretty amazing. Slayer is more versatile damage (and more fun in general imho) until ranger gets instant enemy, ranger is brutal against their favorite favored enemy.
Before SM, you use a light shield off-hand. With SM you use a heavy shield main-hand, and a light crit-fisher (best=kukri, or maybe cestus if you go fighter(brawler)3 for feats and more damage after glorious lvl 6) off hand. That and and using shield enhancements instead of weapon (+5 bashing, everything else is gravy), means access to that feat at 6 instead of 11 is huge.
Shield Slam and Greater Bull Rush is a great combo, if you have friends in melee with you. Every hit with that shield provokes AoOs from your friends. If you're solo on the front line, you don't need those BR feats, but SS is still groovy if you can knock foes back enough to deny them full attacks.
Shield spikes stacking with bashing enhancement is debatable, I believe they overlap instead of stacking, but base damage dice don't matter much with all the static bonuses you can pick up.
I really have no experience with sword and board. Shield Slam, Shield Bash they are basically gibberish to me. I don't get why they are such a good thing so a shield can deal 1d6 with a shield bash and with the right feats you can send that foe back like a bull rush?
Basically you troll for crits which then lets you get free shield bashes which bull rush people. They get AoO'd by your team and if you bull rush them into a wall they're prone. They do this attack routine with almost no TWF penalty because of shield master, I believe.
It's a very cool build that you can actually have the strength to make use of because of Slayer/Ranger ignoring pre-reqs. There's really no reason to go for the other TWF feats, not least of all because you're probably using most of your feats on shield things.
And with spiked destroyer a successful bull rush gives you a swift action attack with your armor spikes. As a shield bash allows a free bull rush that's neat.
So you can either:
- Attack with high crit weapon, if crit shied bash, bull rush, armor spike attack. Or..
- Shield bash, bull rush, armor spike attack, more shield bashes and do not use your second weapon at all.
And a spiked bashing heavy shield deals 2d6. Plus both spiked shields as well as armor spikes are close weapons and thus brawlers (both the class and the fighter archetype) get bonuses with them.
(...)That was back when crane style was...well...good, and made a perfect style to pair up with snake style, since it could take out the higher BAB attacks that would obviously be hits. I vaguely remember hearing something about an errata though (I would love to see if anyone has a link to that discussion).
It wasn't so so much an errata as another rewrite of the feat. The changes to Crane Wing can be read here, and the new version reads like this:
Benefit: Once per round, when fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can designate a single opponent you can see. You receive a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent for one round. If you using the total defense action instead, you can deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
(...)That was back when crane style was...well...good, and made a perfect style to pair up with snake style, since it could take out the higher BAB attacks that would obviously be hits. I vaguely remember hearing something about an errata though (I would love to see if anyone has a link to that discussion).It wasn't so so much an errata as another rewrite of the feat. The changes to Crane Wing can be read here, and the new version reads like this:
Benefit: Once per round, when fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can designate a single opponent you can see. You receive a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent for one round. If you using the total defense action instead, you can deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
If turtling actually worked, then yes, this would be a return to the joyous days of old. You could get in a riposte as well as the hits gained from misses with snake style.
But unfortunately, consistently just standing there waiting to get hit does not do much in this system. C'est la vie.
I don't remember where the FAQ is specifically, but it has been clarified that off-hand exists solely as a TWFing concept. There is no handedness in pathfinder.Bashing Finish gives you a free attack any time you crit (must be against the same target), which always adds full strength since it isn't an "off-hand" attack (that only exists for the extra attacks gained from TWFing)...The rules do not support that position. (unless there is an exemption in one of those shield feats that I'm not aware of.)
Using an attack with your offhand only grants 1/2 strength bonus. It has nothing to do with using two-weapon fighting.
I agree with the notion of no "handedness" but that doesn't mean that all characters are ambidextrous. With or without the TWF feat, if you use a sword and board and attack with both, it should be assumed that the sword is your main hand and the shield is your offhand.
I would like to see that FAQ, because otherwise the wording is actually quite clear. Main hand attacks benefit fully from strength, offhand gets 1/2 strength bonus. This text is in the combat section, not in the TWF feat. It seems a bit of a stretch to say that the offhand penalty only applies when gaining extra attacks from the TWF feat.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean?
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FAQ 1: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9onf
FAQ 2: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qd4
The first FAQ basically says that TWFing penalties only exist if you're gaining extra attacks from TWFing. The damage penalty is one such penalty.
The second FAQ says that the penalties associated with TWFing only exist for the purposes of that full round attack, not for other purposes (such as an AoO that occurs during the round after making a TWFing full attack).
Since Pathfinder doesn't track handedness (you can, in D&D3.0e terms, be left-handed in one round then right-handed the next), the only conclusion I can make is that off-hand is a concept that exists only for TWFing. The FAQs state you aren't using TWFing unless you're gaining extra attacks, and even then only during the full attack itself, which in turn means that off-hand is just something you apply to those extra attacks as a (balancing) damage penalty.
No. You can attack with any appropriate weapon in your main or off hand. You *could* swing with a light in your main and a one-handed in your off. It wouldn't be optimal, but you *could* do it. The same is true of shield and sword; either can be the main hand, per RAW and RAI.
Yes of course you could switch hands. The only line I said that might not have been clear on is "it should be assumed that the sword is your main hand and the shield is your offhand." Key word there is assumed. All I meant was in 99% of circumstances, you're not going to gimp yourself (as you said, it wouldn't be optimal) by switching the hands you use.
As for two-weapon fighting, you only fight with two weapons when, uh, you attack with two weapons. I don't know what the confusion is? If you hold a second weapon, but don't attack with it, it's just the same as holding a shield but not bashing with it. Why would you suffer the penalties?
I only referred to off-hand penalties for off-hand attacks, be they with a weapon or a shield. The "nonhandedness" of Pathfinder means that you don't need to specify if your character is right or left handed. Though, it stands to reason that if you're holding a sword and shield, the sword is in your main hand and shield in the offhand--thus, if you made a free action attack (like the Bashing Finish feat) or an AoO with that shield, you were doing so with your offhand.
The only thing I was debating was whether Bashing Finish would benefit from the full strength bonus, since in most conceivable circumstances the shield used in that attack would be held in the offhand.
The FAQs cited above seem to counter that, which I can of course accept.