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Hello everybody!
So I was thinking about how in most fantasy settings the amount of gold in the world is completely overblown. This is likely due to the image started by Smaug's treasure horde. Which is completely and utterly ridiculously over the top. Now let's compare his mountains of gold to what we find in our world.
All the gold mined by humans through all of history would only fill a cube about 21 meters across. That's including modern mining techniques.
If we look at the seven known ancient metals as parts per million in the Earth's crust we get the following...
Iron 50,000 ppm
Copper 50 ppm
Lead 16 ppm
Tin 2 ppm
Silver 0.1 ppm
Mercury 0.08 ppm
Gold 0.005 ppm
We can take Lead off the list as it's a liquid and thus cannot be used for coins. Iron is pretty common place and Lead is kind of heavy and awkward for making coins. So looking at just Copper, Tin, Silver, and Gold we see they're spaced out fairly nicely. Platinum was unknown prior to the 18th century.
Silver is 20 times more common the Gold.
Tin is 20 times more common the Silver.
Copper is 25 times more common then Tin.
For simplicity sake we can break this up into multiples of 10
100 copper = 10 tin = 1 silver = 0.1 gold
Thus it seems to me a simple patch to make the system slightly more realistic, without being overly complicated, is to do the following. Keep copper pieces as is, turn silver pieces into tin, gold pieces into silver, and platinum pieces into gold. Thus making silver coins the base unit of value rather then gold coins.
If we think about this in term of US money prior to 1900 it makes a lot of sense. 100 copper pennies = 1 silver dollar. Keeping in mind of course that a dollar, on the gold standard, had way more value prior to 1900. About 30 times times what it is today. Using 19th century US currency as an analogue we get the following…
1 cp = Penny (copper piece) $0.01
1 sp = Dime (tin bit) $0.10
1 gp = Silver Dollar (silver piece) $1.00
1 pp = Gold Coin (gold piece) $10.00
If we optionally add in alloys we can flesh it out even more.
Penny (copper piece) $0.01
Nickel (bronze piece) $0.05
Dime (tin bit) $0.10
50 cent piece (silver alloy) $0.50
Silver Dollar (silver piece) $1.00
$5 dollar coin (electrum piece) $5.00
Gold Coin (gold piece) $10.00
The names of the coins can easily be change for the time period and location. Crowns, Marks, Deniers, etc.
Anyways. Just thought I'd share my thoughts for anyone else that might care to tone down the over abundance of gold in their settings. :)
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Much for this reason, my first Organized Play DM said that in his home games, "gp" was considered to be more an abstract measure of credit (sort of like the 'influence/infamy' currency from City of Heroes/Villains) than a literal number of coins.
Also, if you just want to make gold itself less common, keep in mind settings like DARK SUN and DRAGONLANCE where ceramic and steel pieces, respectively, are generally used instead of gold.
I kind of wish there were mithril pieces (mp) and adamantine pieces (ap) worth 100 gp and 1000 gp, respectively.
Electrum existed through 2nd Edition, but few people readily know that Electrum is a gold-silver alloy, so I always see people get confused when they hear "electrum piece" and have no idea what it is or how much it should be worth.
I prefer not dealing with coins at all (I like to set campaigns in Medieval-to-Renaissance real world locals, thus exchange rates are a given), and instead have the Loot be awarded as an amount of treasure equal to the GP that should be gained, even mundane things. My players have to do a LOT of trading, but they kinda like it - big fans of Spice & Wolf - and it ends up being a balancing quality.
I came up with my own "patch" for coinage in my house rules for E6/P6. The two premises are A) the base is silver, not gold; and B) coins step up in factors of 50 (i.e. 50 CPs are worth one SP, 50 SP are worth one GP), and any 50 coins weigh a pound. This is not exact historically, but it's much more accurate than the RAW d20/PF system.
How this works in mechanical terms is actually simple. For the book/RAW price in GP, simply read it as SP. Multiply the book/RAW price in SP by five to get the price in new CP. And if the book/RAW price is in CP, divide by two (round UP) for the cost in new CP.
This also has the effect of making copper actually worth something, and assumes most of the populace uses CP for almost all transactions. Silver is something special, and gold is the province of kings and merchant princes.
Needless to say, this will significantly alter the way treasure is handed out. ;-) I'm still playing with the ratios, but for the gritty atmosphere I'm aiming for, I'd probably cut coin amounts in treasures by half (after converting it to the new system above).
I kind of wish there were mithril pieces (mp) and adamantine pieces (ap) worry 100 gp and 1000 gp, respectively.
According to the pfsrd, mithral is worth the same as platinum by weight (500 gp/lb) and adamantium is worth 300 gp/lb. Considering mithral metals have a lower weight (1/2) than the same amount of steel, it has a lower density. Every mithral coin would have to be twice as large to to fit the 50 coins to a pound shorthand that pathfinder uses.
Change the metal amount to whatever size you need if you are working with out currencies that have appreciated more than their metal value (such as the coinage of a kingdom with valuable exports).
Electrum coins (silver/gold) were far more common than silver and gold until around 350-500 B.C. as better methods of metallurgy formed to separate the silver. Works particularly well when found in an old ruin from earlier times. Electrum occurs naturally as well.
Electrum existed through 2nd Edition, but few people readily know that Electrum is a gold-silver alloy, so I always see people get confused when they hear "electrum piece" and have no idea what it is or how much it should be worth.
I prefer not dealing with coins at all (I like to set campaigns in Medieval-to-Renaissance real world locals, thus exchange rates are a given), and instead have the Loot be awarded as an amount of treasure equal to the GP that should be gained, even mundane things. My players have to do a LOT of trading, but they kinda like it - big fans of Spice & Wolf - and it ends up being a balancing quality.
I tried exchange rates in one of my campaigns once (I'm a rabbit economist). It was too much for my players. They hated having to convert everything and it bogged down buying/selling equipment.
@ arikiel - It's so true. My personal explanation is that the reason there is way too much valuable metal is because it was imported from other planes and planets, such as the plane of Earth.
My favorite alternate coins are wolfram coins kept in a lead box. Worth hundreds of gp each, but they are illegal to sell because they are considered ancestral property of Dwarves (also because Wolfram is Uranium by another name and maybe the ancient dwarves knew something modern day doesn't ;) )
I think you meant "Mercury". :-)
Opps. :p
@ I'm Hiding In Your Closet: I certainly understand it can be appropriate to make money more abstract. Keeping track of ever coin isn't very practical in a lot of games. It works with the way I happen to set things up in my world and adds a lot of background flavor.
@ SmiloDan: Mithral coins would be a good to use as the next step above gold in this system. They'd be worth so much though that it's not something you'd be likely to see much of. It would be something like a $500 bill in todays money.
@ chbgraphicarts: I've heard Electrum Pieces are back in 5th edition. Again even if you're not keeping track of exact coinage, from a background flavor point of view, I feel it's appropriate to tone things down in a "lower fantasy" setting.
@ Unimportant: It occurred to me to use different multiples for the coin values. Multiples of 10 are just easier to track though. Also it doesn't require any extra work in transitioning over. It's just a direct cp = a copper coin, sp = a tin coin, gp = a silver coin, pp = a gold coin.
@ Rabbiteconomist: Indeed. Coins can be made slightly larger or smaller based on the exact value of an amount of metal. Exchange rates would be a bit much for most people to deal with. That's why I favored a direct one for one name/flavor change.
As for the historical usage of electrum coins you have to keep in mind this is still a fantasy setting. I imagine with dwarves and elves working on it they'd have ways of extracting pure metals. I'm more worried about making things generally "realistic" then exact historical accuracy.
I have before thought of how being connected to the elemental plane of earth would effect thing. While that can certainly be used to excuse to obscene amount of gold in the world I'm looking for a more realistic, down to earth, "low fantasy" feel. Which mainly means that silver should be the base denomination rather then gold.
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Realism:
Okay, Mr. Player, before we start this game, I need you to roll oh... twenty Fort saves against disease, because odds are good that your 1st-level character was dead long before they started adventuring.
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Realism:
Okay, Mr. Player, before we start this game, I need you to roll oh... twenty Fort saves against disease, because odds are good that your 1st-level character was dead long before they started adventuring.
That's TRAVELLER RPG you're thinking of.
Besides, if you're going to think like that, why not roll randomly on the disease table for each character during creation for a single ailment you contracted and overcame in your youth, and consequently enjoy permanent immunity to? Antibodies Are Your Buddies!
@ Anguish: I'm looking for a toned down setting. One that feels somewhat more plausible to me. Not complete realism in all aspects. Please respond to points that were actually made rather then tearing down straw men.
@ boring7: Indeed that is a lot of coins. Still you have to take into about that's including modern mining and covers the entire world. Let's say there's about half a billion people in a typical preindustrial world. Then let's be generous and say there's 10 billion gold coins in that world. That means there's an average of 20 gold coins per person on the planet. When you consider most wealth would be concentrated in the hands of a few there's really not much to go around for every day use.
I agree that base ten is best for the sake of simplicity. All I'm saying is that it's worth considering shifting silver and gold coins over one decimal place. Mechanically nothing would change. Just the name/description of silver, gold, and platinum coins (to tin, silver, and gold). As an example of of the over abundance of gold consider that an average piece of pyrite (fool's gold) cost 10 gp in the Pathfinder rules as written.
@ Gark the Goblin: I wonder if the market varies as wildly when trading in human souls. :p
Darksun was awesome.
On another note to do with coins I'd prefer if there were more info for the currrency of different nations etc.
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@ Gark the Goblin: I wonder if the market varies as wildly when trading in human souls. :p
At least human souls have some intrinsic value. They're useful for magic and bartering with demons (also for eating, if you're so predisposed)
I can't even call the value of BitCoins "horse-dung," because horse dung at has value as fertilizer.
Even just ten gold coins per person would be more than enough if you didn't have to take into account dragon hoards and the like. 90% of the populace would do all their transactions in copper or silver, leaving 100 gold coins per person for those who actually use gold. Of those who use gold, most would never actually have that many coins, since then you're just begging to be robbed. Also, those who have significantly more wealth than 100 gp would store a lot of that wealth in other valuable metals, like platinum, or in valuable gemstones that are considerably more portable than gold. Also consider that the best use of money is to put it to work. An investment in a trade caravan or ownership of a local stables is far more useful than just having a bunch of coins sitting around not doing anything, because they give a return on investment and make you more money. And you might not even get that return in the form of gold. Your investment in the trade caravan will likely pay off in trade goods like silk. You'll want to sell those trade goods... but remember that most people do business in copper or silver, not gold, and once you've got a bunch of gold from selling those trade goods, best to invest it again!
What this means is that while a small town of 1,000 people might have only 10,000 gold coins, that's more than enough to manage all of their trade needs, and indeed might be far more than necessary. You could probably get away with less than half that number of gold coins and never notice anything until a bunch of adventurers came calling and wanted to sell stuff and receive gold coins for it.
A stray thought, we don't know how rare minerals are on Golarion, or on various D&D / Fantasy settings. It might be plausible that gold is more plentiful due to some fluctuation between Golarion and the elemental plane of Earth (not our planet, I mean the elemental plane).
Anyway, most of the whole abstract coinage rules were simply to make a metric economy and not worry about exchange rates (how many gold bars in the value of 10 tails of silver?). It isn't realistic, yet it simplifies things a bit.
I did once create an add on to the coin economy - mage coin, aka aluminum.
Aluminum was mostly worthless before 1900 because we could only mine aluminum oxide and couldn't make anything out of it. When electrical current was applied, it could be worked as a metal and was considered expensive when the process was first invented. With mass production and our prevalent electric grid, aluminum is now considered a cheap, common metal.
In a Fantasy world like Golarion, mages might create the method to purify and work aluminum by using electrical spells to assist the process. Thus, mage coin. A single mage coin would be worth 10 platinum in the coin scale (for simplicity sake). I tried not to worry about the whole weight issue since it would be very lightweight compared to gold.
As for most citizens, I typical state that most people use barter and only talk in matters of coins where adventurers or nobility is concerned. Thus, it isn't uncommon for citizens to trade blankets for livestock, or poultry animals for medicinal herbs. The bizarreness of adventurers throwing around coins to get things is a strange cultural shift where adventurers learn not to think anything of it, yet common people find it highly notable and unusual compared to their normal bartering techniques (yet not so unknown that they wouldn't know what "market value" would be in coin equivalents).
@ Anguish: I'm looking for a toned down setting. One that feels somewhat more plausible to me. Not complete realism in all aspects. Please respond to points that were actually made rather then tearing down straw men.
'Twas only meant as a humorous reminder that sometimes we try too hard to make things realistic at the price of fun. If your players aren't currency geeks or physicists, this is going to be effort and complication spent for no benefit. The coinage system in the game is deliberately meant to be an abstraction to ease play. Also... the distribution of elements in a given setting is what you say it is, not necessarily that of Earth's.
Again, not trying to rain on your parade, just remind that there are a lot of (ie. the vast majority) of players out there that simply won't get the point.
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If having this much gold around really bothers people, you can always just have townsfolk deal in copper and silver instead. You want a potion of Enlarge Person? 500 silver, please.
This also has the advantage of showing your players why the average commoner doesn't really make these kinds of purchases that they are so cavalier about. Even though the rules for Profession checks indicate that a commoner has more buying power than you might expect, it just FEELS like more money when you count it out in silver.
Meanwhile, it's assumed that when the PCs save the town and are rewarded, even though the GM SAYS "You are given 600gp", the mayor isn't just handing the PCs a sack of coins. All the notable figures in town chipped in their thanks, and they're handing the PCs a wheelbarrow full of various trade goods worth a total of 600gp.
If you want to pay this up, mention each notable figure and what they chipped in. Old Bellowsbeard The Blacksmith donated ten steel ingots, Lady Obernathy contributed six bags of saffron, the Farbert family chipped in three chickens, etc. Let them get to know the people they just saved and feel their gratitude.
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@ Lemartes: Indeed, Darksun was pretty awesome. Adding a little background fluff on coinage would be a nice atmospheric touch.
@ chbgraphicarts: I don't know. I'd think the human soul market would be pretty well saturated. They're just so very abundant.
@ Mackenzie Kavanaugh: You make some very good points about hoarding and the circulation of currency. High level PCs, on a spending trip, in an average town, is a bit like Bill Gates dropping in on a Ugandan village. :p
@ KestrelZ: I agree. The multiples of ten is a convenient metric. That's why I suggested leaving it in place and only changing the thematic names of the coins rather then the intrinsic mechanics. I do like you're idea of modern (18th century onward) metals being accessible through magical, as opposed to scientific, means.
@ Anguish: Oh sorry. I'm German so I have no sense of humor. I agree that the system should be practical. As mentioned before that is why I'm suggesting not changing anything mechanically. Only renaming things thematically. So really there's really no complication with the benefit of creating a particular atmosphere.
@ Silent Saturn: While I understand your argument it's not not just a matter of the frequency of gold but it's intrinsic value. Again I point to the example of an average piece of pyrite costing 10 gp. Gold in a standard setting is completely devalued.
Letters of credit and deposits in Temples is the way trade over long distances was handled in the ancient world (before the modern banking system) for most cases because of the risk of losing so that heavy coinage. In Golarion, Abadar's Temples' handling of money was the norm in the ancient western world (minus earning interest if the religion was against it)
With all the low-level magic methods of communication, you don't even need Hawala Banking. Carrier pigeon, whispering wind, pony express, portals, bound outsiders, etc. can transmit the deposit/withdrawal info to the main branch, which is hub from which other banks/temples get the updated info. This is necessary or one teleporting wizard could defraud the banking system in a day by hitting up every branch before they updated info. The main time you would need coins is to deal with small towns and villages without the resources for more than a shrine (which, admittedly is most people's campaign locations, I.e. away from urban civilization).
For those who think that simple banking screws with their world concept, that's where Hawala banking comes in, where it thrives in parts of the real world where people are outside the modern banking system.
I also recommend looking up "Hundi" as well. It is similar to Hawala, but it is the version indigenous to the Indian subcontinent.
Now if you want realism you should incorporate Grisham's Law, clipped coinage and limited money changing. Those gold pieces from a centuries old grave are worth 5 of the modern debased gold pieces in specie value, circulated coins might be a little light and only be worth a percentage of what coins fresh from the mint are worth, and in a small town only the blacksmith can freely change coins into the modern local coinage and then only in limited amounts.
Personally I find it best to consider the term "gold piece" a courtesy title for a coin consisting of an amalgam of lead and silver with just enough gold (probably as a wash or plating) to keep the gods from striking the minter down for false advertising.
True that on Grisham's Law. The golf piece courtesy term idea can work fine add long as you adjust you adjust the price of 1 lb. of gold being worth 50 gp ( same as 50 coins of gold weighing 1 lb.).
Personally I find it best to consider the term "gold piece" a courtesy title for a coin consisting of an amalgam of lead and silver with just enough gold (probably as a wash or plating) to keep the gods from striking the minter down for false advertising.
I am reminded of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, where the 'gold' coins are at best only 1/3 gold and by the time they switch to paper money are merely 'goldish', having approximately the same gold content as seawater.
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The part about it all that gets me isn't the relative values of metals, but the fact that every society on Golarion seems to use the same currency. Realistically, each kingdom would have its own monarch's head on the coins, and there'd be exchange rates to worry about and so forth.
This further supports my theory that all prices of items and values of treasure are abstractions, and that the player never actually deals with what the NPCs around him really use for currency on a day-to-day basis.
Although it would be more realistic for every nation to have their own currency, at lest those with a recognizable form of central government, it would be a real hassle in the game. The Forgotten Realms kind of gave a nod to this concept, as the descriptions of many nations had special names for their coinage. Coins from ancient tombs and ruins would be more different still, and often with wildly different weights and perhaps composition.
But do you really, really want to bog things down with the excess book keeping? Already, many tables don't bother with weight and encumbrance, simply because of the math hassles involved. Can you see each adventurer keeping track of multiple batches of coins, with various weights and values depending on where these copins were being spent?
Use banknotes with Arcane Mark.
Arcane Mark proves authenticity on a sheet of paper. It is available to even a 1st level commoner with a trait.
I've done this many times in my settings, with paper and coins.
OP,
I like the idea and I've had similar thoughts about the bloated gold issue, but from a different angle. It bothered me as a GM who wanted to bring flavor of economy to the game. Copper and silver coins become virtually worthless and tedious after level 1. By level two you have enough equipment, coinage, and/or the ability to earn coinage at such a rate that copper and silver are completely marginalized. This has always stuck in my craw!
A flavor-fix solution I wanted to try in some game in the future is similar to your idea in the original post, but slightly different. I propose adding one more tier of coinage at the bottom rung (bronze, for example)(I propose putting at the bottom to make it as seamless a transition as possible, as opposed to your metal-to-coinage breakdown based on earth PPM ratios, which shuffles the tiers around a bit.)
Book prices for everything then gets shifted down a tier. (If a greatsword costs 50 gold per the book, it now costs 50 silver pieces.) This thrusts silver into a more prominent role in players' lives, and thrusts copper and bronze into the commoner's hands as their primary medium of commerce. Also it places gold and platinum into a higher tier of value and importance, thus making it much more exciting to find a bag of gold!
It's a simple fix that I think might add some flavor to my next game. I want to give it a try and see if it makes any difference.