Composite longbow higher than +5 ?


Rules Questions


is it possible for a composite bow (longbow or short) to have a higher str mod rating than +5? everywhere i look they seem to stop at +5 is that set in stone or just used as a example? friend of mine has 22 str and the DM won't let him have a composite longbow that gives him a +6 bonus to damage.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Spend 3000 gold and a masterwork composite longbow to make it a +1 adaptive composite longbow.

No more issues with a GM not wanting to have people buy high strength rating composite bows.

I do not think however that there is a limit. Simply paying the extra cost per strength rating should be sufficient so a composite longbow +6 should cost 700 gp.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

There's no upper limit on strength mods for longbows.

You can houserule a Str Restriction, but RAW says your DM is wrong...so maybe it's a house rule.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

At that point, you're better off with the Adaptive enchantment, which is a +X composite bow for only +1000 gold, which is a steal as well as beautiful for people who can boost their strength bonus.


Most likely the GM looked at the weapon table and never saw the rule saying otherwise because s/he never looked past it.

The relevant text regarding higher-strength bows is the following:

Quote:
A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost.

For my own part, I often house-rule that at the higher strength ratings the bow ceases to be made out of wood (or at least ENTIRELY out of wood), but with how rarely Sunder comes up in games I play that doesn't really make a noticeable difference beyond flavor text. Your mileage may vary.

Apropos of nothing, mysterious steel bow that may or may not be historical.


Ok thank you guys

Scarab Sages

There is also the Exceptional Pull feat to increase the STR rating of any composite bow by two.


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The standard Bestiary Storm Giant carries a +14 Strength modifier Composite Longbow.

Sovereign Court

Adaptive is also nice because if you somehow lose your strength (ray of enfeeblement, strength drain, etc) it will match your existing strength still and not give a penalty.

Scarab Sages

Exceptional pull does that too, but Adaptive is the better option. Some people may prefer the feat though as they don't like to be dependent on a specific piece of gear.

Grand Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:
There is also the Exceptional Pull feat to increase the STR rating of any composite bow by two.

Is it just me or is that feat extremely overpowered? I could be a fighter with 5 str (-3 mod) and have a Composite Longbow +5. I'm proficient with it because it's a martial weapon. If I had that feat I would be attacking at +7 damage per arrow with no penalties for not being strong enough to use the bow.


claudekennilol wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
There is also the Exceptional Pull feat to increase the STR rating of any composite bow by two.
Is it just me or is that feat extremely overpowered? I could be a fighter with 5 str (-3 mod) and have a Composite Longbow +5. I'm proficient with it because it's a martial weapon. If I had that feat I would be attacking at +7 damage per arrow with no penalties for not being strong enough to use the bow.

Wow. That's like a sacred geometry level mess up.

You could have a bow with a +100 str rating.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Exceptional pull says nothing about adding damage just adding to the Str. rating.


Dubgall wrote:

Exceptional pull says nothing about adding damage just adding to the Str. rating.

That's what STR rating is. Why would you add 2 to it if it didn't change the damage?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Str rating is the maximum Str bonus to damage a composite bow can do. You still need the actual Str bonus to get that much damage.

Example:

Str 18 character picks up a composite longbow (+3 Str).

Without EP: damage is 1d8+3.

With EP: damage is 1d8+4, but he's not suffering the Attack penalty for having a Str bonus lower than the bow's rating (which is +5 in his hands).


Chemlak wrote:
Str rating is the maximum Str bonus to damage a composite bow can do. You still need the actual Str bonus to get that much damage.

Then what is the purpose of the feat? It lets you better use a bow that wasn't built for you? Both if too strong or too weak? That is a terrible feat. And I hate everything.


It removes penalties of insufficient strength, but does not grant the benefits of higher strength.

Also raises maximum possible on a given now. Youre still limited to your str mod or bow + 2 mod,whichever is lower.

Grand Lodge

Beopere wrote:

It removes penalties of insufficient strength, but does not grant the benefits of higher strength.

Also raises maximum possible on a given now. Youre still limited to your str mod or bow + 2 mod,whichever is lower.

Then it's an entirely useless feat. I'd rather spend 200g on a better composite bow than waste a feat if the feat is worth only 200g. Obviously the intent was to give you +2 damage on your attacks but it doesn't work how it's intended.

Grand Lodge

Really? Because I'm pretty sure the intent wasn't to replicate Weapon Specialization in an extremely roundabout manner, but to do exactly what it says it does. Buying a new bow isn't always an option (unless you're planning on buying a new bow every time your strength changes, including mid fight changes) and you can't always get an Adaptive bow either.

Now, it's still not a good feat, I'll grant you that.


If an enemy drops a +3 holy bow of awesomeness strength rating +2, and you have Str 18, then the feat just gave you Weapon Specialization without being a fighter.

Grand Lodge

RumpinRufus wrote:
If an enemy drops a +3 holy bow of awesomeness strength rating +2, and you have Str 18, then the feat just gave you Weapon Specialization without being a fighter.

Then take it back somewhere and put adaptive on it for 1000g. Again, a feat is worth more than 1000g to me.

If the feat worked this way instead of how it's obviously intended to (+2 damage), then the only way this feat would be useful was if there were a ranged brawler archetype that could pick up ranged combat feats for short amounts of time.

People just don't take feats just in case someone drops a weapon that might be useful. People don't make a Two-Handed Fighter archetype then take weapon focus (whip) just because they might find a useful whip someday.


Jeff Merola wrote:

Really? Because I'm pretty sure the intent wasn't to replicate Weapon Specialization in an extremely roundabout manner, but to do exactly what it says it does. Buying a new bow isn't always an option (unless you're planning on buying a new bow every time your strength changes, including mid fight changes) and you can't always get an Adaptive bow either.

Now, it's still not a good feat, I'll grant you that.

Yeah, the equivalent feat in a caster would be:

Tiny Words

prerequisite: Linguistics 5 ranks

You have learned to write extremely small and can fit more complex writing into smaller spaces. When you write spells into your spellbook they take up space as a spell 2 levels lower than they are.

Special: This feat only applies to casters writing into spellbooks that have been damaged or cut so that 25% or more of the spellbook is unusable. The maximum benefit of this feat cannot exceed the amount of text stored in one-quarter of a regular spellbook.


It could be good in a low wealth or low magic game, or a game where the GM bans adaptive or...yeah! pretty niche feat, but in the right campaign could be useful, maybe.

Grand Lodge

claudekennilol wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
If an enemy drops a +3 holy bow of awesomeness strength rating +2, and you have Str 18, then the feat just gave you Weapon Specialization without being a fighter.

Then take it back somewhere and put adaptive on it for 1000g. Again, a feat is worth more than 1000g to me.

If the feat worked this way instead of how it's obviously intended to (+2 damage), then the only way this feat would be useful was if there were a ranged brawler archetype that could pick up ranged combat feats for short amounts of time.

People just don't take feats just in case someone drops a weapon that might be useful. People don't make a Two-Handed Fighter archetype then take weapon focus (whip) just because they might find a useful whip someday.

You're arguing that they just wanted to make Weapon Specialization again, but written in an obtuse manner. I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that front.

Scarab Sages

It's good for campaigns where your don't have access to magic mart. If you are only relying on your GM to give you a magic weapon, there is a good chance your bow may not have adaptive, and you can't just spend the gold to add it.

Or, if you want to be able to pick up and use any bow regardless of what STR rating it has.

In either case, it has uses.

It's not like its Caustic Slur or something.


Imbicatus wrote:

It's good for campaigns where your don't have access to magic mart. If you are only relying on your GM to give you a magic weapon, there is a good chance your bow may not have adaptive, and you can't just spend the gold to add it.

Or, if you want to be able to pick up and use any bow regardless of what STR rating it has.

In either case, it has uses.

It's not like its Caustic Slur or something.

Eh, Caustic Slur isn't terrible if you have high AC. Forcing the opponent to Power Attack you does give them a fairly significant debuff on their to-hit, so I can see a niche for it.

Scarab Sages

Except Caustic Slur doesn't force the target to attack you.


johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Eh, Caustic Slur isn't terrible if you have high AC. Forcing the opponent to Power Attack you does give them a fairly significant debuff on their to-hit, so I can see a niche for it.

But it's a standard action. And it allows a save (although there's no apparent DC?) Not to mention the very specific pre-reqs.

I did not know about this feat until now, but it is truly, truly awful.


Imbicatus wrote:

It's good for campaigns where your don't have access to magic mart. If you are only relying on your GM to give you a magic weapon, there is a good chance your bow may not have adaptive, and you can't just spend the gold to add it.

Or, if you want to be able to pick up and use any bow regardless of what STR rating it has.

In either case, it has uses.

It's not like its Caustic Slur or something.

I think any time your defense of something's viability starts with "Well, if all the better options are banned..." then it's not much of a case.


RumpinRufus wrote:
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Eh, Caustic Slur isn't terrible if you have high AC. Forcing the opponent to Power Attack you does give them a fairly significant debuff on their to-hit, so I can see a niche for it.

But it's a standard action. And it allows a save (although there's no apparent DC?) Not to mention the very specific pre-reqs.

I did not know about this feat until now, but it is truly, truly awful.

Oh I'm not saying the feat is good at all, just that it has a niche. It is a bad feat, but in the right set up you can make it useful, unlike say Elephant Stomp which is almost literally useless.


claudekennilol wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
If an enemy drops a +3 holy bow of awesomeness strength rating +2, and you have Str 18, then the feat just gave you Weapon Specialization without being a fighter.

Then take it back somewhere and put adaptive on it for 1000g. Again, a feat is worth more than 1000g to me.

If the feat worked this way instead of how it's obviously intended to (+2 damage), then the only way this feat would be useful was if there were a ranged brawler archetype that could pick up ranged combat feats for short amounts of time.

People just don't take feats just in case someone drops a weapon that might be useful. People don't make a Two-Handed Fighter archetype then take weapon focus (whip) just because they might find a useful whip someday.

It's about Bull's Strength. Also Rage, and VERY much about Ray of enfeeblement, and everything else that can raise or lower strength while in the field.

Not to mention if you ever need to upgrade it you have to vendor trash your possibly really-expensively-enchanted bow because it's base (+3 composite) needs to be replaced with a new base (+4 composite) and then enchanted-up to previous.

It is situational, as is improved trip, as is Point-blank shot, as is Weapon Versatility and/or cleave. Not a high-priority, replaceable, but not useless. With it, you can start with a higher-bonus bow than you could normally use and occasionally grow into it when the opportunity presents itself.

Scarab Sages

It's a feat instead of a weapon enchantment. It's no worse than taking dervish dance/slashing grace/fencing grace instead of an agile weapon.


Imbicatus wrote:

It's a feat instead of a weapon enchantment. It's no worse than taking dervish dance/slashing grace/fencing grace instead of an agile weapon.

With the exception that dervish dance scales with your increases to dex, regardless of how high it grows unlike exceptional pull which caps at two higher than the base strength of the bow. Adaptive as an enchantment is much better than exceptional pull as a feat.


Imbicatus wrote:

It's a feat instead of a weapon enchantment. It's no worse than taking dervish dance/slashing grace/fencing grace instead of an agile weapon.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Adaptive is a flat 1,000 gold to buy and the similar archery feat is worse than it. So you are trading a feat to always be worse than what you could have bought for 1,000 gold.

In regards to agile now... As you increase your weapon enhancement, the effective price of each +1 grows. By the time you are trying to get a +5 agile weapon, that agile cost you an additional 22,000 gold. That cost continues to grow if want to enchant beyond that. So you're looking at spending one feat to save quite a lot of gold in the long run, plus it comes online much sooner than agile due to the cost of an effective +2 weapon. And you most dex builds want that dex to damage ASAP as 1dx-1 damage is a bad place to be.


Edit: Ninja'd.

Yes Adaptive is much better than Agile or Exceptional Pull, but you get what you can get. Not everyone allows Ultimate Equipment, and having multiple paths to the same outcome is not necessarily a bad thing.

Although I wonder, if Exceptional Pull also gave you a flat +1 to damage (as if your strength were two higher), would it be worth it, overpowered, or still inferior?


boring7 wrote:

Edit: Ninja'd.

Yes Adaptive is much better than Agile or Exceptional Pull, but you get what you can get. Not everyone allows Ultimate Equipment, and having multiple paths to the same outcome is not necessarily a bad thing.

Although I wonder, if Exceptional Pull also gave you a flat +1 to damage (as if your strength were two higher), would it be worth it, overpowered, or still inferior?

I would really be amused if someone allowed a Companion Book and not Ultimate Combat, to be honest.

For the flat +1, it would be acceptable. It's one of the few archery feats I know that doesn't ask for Point Blank Shot, but you still need to invest in Deadly Aim. Plus, you need to have +3 to BBA, so all in all it's interesting if you're a fighter IMO.


The feat does have the advantage over adaptive in that it can cope with strength penalties, while adaptive cannot(since its wording is bonus). Not that it makes it a good feat, but it still at least does something.


The feat is just total trash, really. Even when the feat does something it is still better not to get it, because feat slots are pretty valuable.

I know how I would redesign it either, the design is so boring. Maybe like
Exceptional Pull: When you really need to, you can pull out all the stops

As a standard action, you may make a single ranged attack at your highest bab. If it hits, the opponent must make a reflex save. dc = to 10 + your BAB. If they fail, they are knocked prone

Scarab Sages

CWheezy wrote:

The feat is just total trash, really. Even when the feat does something it is still better not to get it, because feat slots are pretty valuable.

I know how I would redesign it either, the design is so boring. Maybe like
Exceptional Pull: When you really need to, you can pull out all the stops

As a standard action, you may make a single ranged attack at your highest bab. If it hits, the opponent must make a reflex save. dc = to 10 + your BAB. If they fail, they are knocked prone

That would be Ranged Trip also in the same book.


Imbicatus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

The feat is just total trash, really. Even when the feat does something it is still better not to get it, because feat slots are pretty valuable.

I know how I would redesign it either, the design is so boring. Maybe like
Exceptional Pull: When you really need to, you can pull out all the stops

As a standard action, you may make a single ranged attack at your highest bab. If it hits, the opponent must make a reflex save. dc = to 10 + your BAB. If they fail, they are knocked prone

That would be Ranged Trip also in the same book.

Wow, an equally terrible feat. This was supposed to be a book for ranged combat options?

I R SAD.

Scarab Sages

BigDTBone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

The feat is just total trash, really. Even when the feat does something it is still better not to get it, because feat slots are pretty valuable.

I know how I would redesign it either, the design is so boring. Maybe like
Exceptional Pull: When you really need to, you can pull out all the stops

As a standard action, you may make a single ranged attack at your highest bab. If it hits, the opponent must make a reflex save. dc = to 10 + your BAB. If they fail, they are knocked prone

That would be Ranged Trip also in the same book.

Wow, an equally terrible feat. This was supposed to be a book for ranged combat options?

I R SAD.

The feats are hit and miss. The archetypes are golden.


Imbicatus wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

The feat is just total trash, really. Even when the feat does something it is still better not to get it, because feat slots are pretty valuable.

I know how I would redesign it either, the design is so boring. Maybe like
Exceptional Pull: When you really need to, you can pull out all the stops

As a standard action, you may make a single ranged attack at your highest bab. If it hits, the opponent must make a reflex save. dc = to 10 + your BAB. If they fail, they are knocked prone

That would be Ranged Trip also in the same book.

Wow, an equally terrible feat. This was supposed to be a book for ranged combat options?

I R SAD.

The feats are hit and miss. The archetypes are golden.

pout I really really like ranged combatants. I'll probably buy the book anyway. Even if just for getting starting ideas for stuff in my home game.


Imbicatus wrote:


That would be Ranged Trip also in the same book.

The feats are hit and miss. The archetypes are golden.

Well, my feat is useful, instead of total garbage like that one, is the main difference

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