Official Tower NAP Violation

[TEO Cheatle]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

First off, I did not want to besmirch Aragon's reputation by posting its name in the title thread. Bluddwolf has shown me respect, so I wish to do the same. However, I am here to lodge a complaint on behalf of Brighthaven, per the NAP, with proof that Aragon has taken NAP core towers from Hammerforge.

Link to screenshot

I ask Golgotha to confirm this information based on our coordinated scouting effort earlier tonight. After this has been confirmed, I ask that Aragon attempt to fix this issue without a tribunal being issued.

[DeciusBrutus]

I observe that Allegiant Gemstone Company has claimed two towers adjacent to Hammerforge.

[Gol Tigari]

I confirm this report as the Golgothan rep. who spoke with Cheatle.

[Atheory]

I've had the towers nearly 3 days now, I was wondering when the "we are the world police" would show up.

I took'em, damn straight, what you gonna do about it! And I'd do it again.

As I sit cross legged, arms folded at my offline tower during a dream session chanting "heck no we won't go, heck no we won't go"

Since Golgotha wants to help call me out, feel free to ding them for allowing Callambea (yes also Golgotha with a different name) from taking core towers around Iron Gauntlet.

Yes, what a web we weave!

Atheory
Allegiant Gemstone Company

[TEO Cheatle]

I was under the impression that Golgotha already kicked the member that took that tower, as soon as it was brought to their attention.

[Thod]

We need two parties representing both sides. Could Aragon please get someone nominated and could I task Brighthaven to try contact someone from Hammerforge and in absence of that get someone else to stand in for them.

I will be reading whatever opinions will be voiced here.

I'm not available until 23:00 GMT earliest today due to RL. I will be checking this thread and I will be checking e-mail. We could meet up on the Emerald Lodge server 23:00 or I'm happy to go to a different mumble or Teamspeak server.

To reach me please send any information to my e-mail in my profile.

We might have to move any discussions to tomorrow if the time is too short dealing with it. But it would be best to get it done quickly.

[Gol Tigari]

TEO Cheatle wrote:

I was under the impression that Golgotha already kicked the member that took that tower, as soon as it was brought to their attention.

Golgotha kicked who for what?

EDIT: nevermind, I didn't notice Antheory Edited his post from the first time I read through it (or i missed part of it).

[Kadere]

Quote:

Forming the Tribunal

The Tribunal will be made up of an Advocate for the Petitioner, an Advocate for the Accused, and a Neutral Party. The Petitioner and Accused may select any Signatory that is not a member of their Power Bloc as their Advocate. If the Accused fails to select an Advocate, then there will only be an Advocate for the Petitioner and the Neutral Party. The Neutral Party will be Emerald Lodge unless they are the Petitioner or Accused, in which case the Advocates will select another Neutral Party.

Bolding mine for emphasis.

So, Aragon needs to choose an Advocate that is not from Aragon or Freevale (ie the Nation of Kathalphas), Brighthaven needs to choose someone from outside the Everbloom Alliance?

[TEO Cheatle]

Hammerforge seems to be active in the forums/voice comms, but it looks like their leader is AFK, a situation some of the people here have experienced. If I can not find anyone to represent them, and Brighthaven is considered the Petitioner, we would choose Ozem's Vigil.

[Fanndis Goldbraid]

I am shocked! By Torag's flamin' beard! An declared evil settlement had someone stand beside a building for 83 minutes! (Mostly I am shocked that an evil person stood beside a building for 83 minutes. Other than that, I am not shocked.)

[Thod]

Kadere wrote:

Quote:

Forming the Tribunal

The Tribunal will be made up of an Advocate for the Petitioner, an Advocate for the Accused, and a Neutral Party. The Petitioner and Accused may select any Signatory that is not a member of their Power Bloc as their Advocate. If the Accused fails to select an Advocate, then there will only be an Advocate for the Petitioner and the Neutral Party. The Neutral Party will be Emerald Lodge unless they are the Petitioner or Accused, in which case the Advocates will select another Neutral Party.

Bolding mine for emphasis.

So, Aragon needs to choose an Advocate that is not from Aragon or Freevale (ie the Nation of Kathalphas), Brighthaven needs to choose someone from outside the Everbloom Alliance?

Thanks - my post was from the breakfast table - so I didn't have the time to look up exact wording and phrases.

[Fleksnes]

Atheory wrote:

I took'em, damn straight, what you gonna do about it! And I'd do it again.

Hehe, Allegiant Gemstone Company has got Goblin Balls of Steel!

[Andius the Afflicted]

Lol. They broke your treaty and now they are thumbing their noses at you. What the heck need is there for petitioners and tribunals? Either you have the goblin-balls to do something about it or you don't.

[Kadere]

It's a process to be followed, to get it done right. That is civilisation. Your trolling is much weaker when you get off message, you know.

[Andius the Afflicted]

Oh I know how your process works. That's why I find this so hillarious. Aragon is making a mockery of it and I'm loving it.

It's funny to watch you sit there tangled up in the chains you constructed yourself when your enemy has quite clearly back handed you with their gauntlet and is now openly taunting you.

Though I suppose such legal proceedings are a great excuse to hide behind if you want to put off telling your Carebear Crew it's time to go to war for as long as humanly possible. I mean because if Aragon so flippantly mocks your treaty and you disregard it, it would show you have no power to enforce such things.

[Bluddwolf]

I was not aware of this, and would like to have some confirmation as to when the screen shot and tower in question was taken?

If it were paste Midnight of last night, that is Wednesday, the agreed upon day when unclaimed alpha six towers were up for grabs.

I have no issue with relinquishing control of this tower in question or any other previous to the agreed upon Wednesday date, that are alpha six towers. With the exception of the K-Bernz Towers that were held by Lone Wolf Clan, which was negotiated with the Empire of Xeilias with full disclosure.

@ Andius,

I make a mockery of many things, but nothing that I put my word to.

In my view, Aragon only has the desire to maintain tier 2 training, and occupying towers beyond that is really not in my interests. I don't anticipate WoT lasting up to the point that we need Tier 3 training, or I should say "I certainly hope it doesn't".

I will leave this up to the Goodfellow to address further, since he is the settlement leader.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

I'd prefer to hear something official from the settlement manager for Aragon first, and think we can afford to give them at least 72 hours from time of violation to respond officially. In the meantime we can certainly start setting up a tribunal.

I remind all parties that a violation does not end the contract, and any settlement agent who attempts to collect capture points in Aragon before the tribunal rules is putting their own settlement in violation and at risk of losing protection.

[Midnight of Golgotha]

You guys know Atheory is their main recruiter, right?

I'm calling this a very shrewd recruiting move. He can likely recruit dozens of combat PvP players who don't want to be chained by the NAP. Combat PvPers are constantly grumbling about the NAP.

This is just about the time where any players who are discontent with their first choice of settlements (especially if they also feel constrained by their settlement's upcoming policy on husk looting) would be looking to jump ship.

I'm guessing we'll see player numbers take a decided jump upwards at Atheory's settlement.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I was not aware of this, and would like to have some confirmation as to when the screen shot and tower in question was taken?

If it were paste Midnight of last night, that is Wednesday, the agreed upon day when unclaimed alpha six towers were up for grabs.

Setting aside the fact that a member of Aragon has already claimed credit for taking the towers in the past, the seventh day is not up until server up today.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

Atheory wrote:

I've had the towers nearly 3 days now, I was wondering when the "we are the world police" would show up.

I took'em, damn straight, what you gonna do about it! And I'd do it again.

1) the NAP specifically says we aren't police, and respond only to complaints.

2) We only have one specified response. If Aragon is unable to justify their presence or make acceptable reparations, any member settlement can attack their core six without censure.

I hope I was able to answer your questions to your satisfaction.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

TEO Cheatle wrote:

Hammerforge seems to be active in the forums/voice comms, but it looks like their leader is AFK, a situation some of the people here have experienced. If I can not find anyone to represent them, and Brighthaven is considered the Petitioner, we would choose Ozem's Vigil.

On behalf of the Vigil, I thank you for your confidence . We will discuss your request as soon as we can.

[Lhan]

Bluddwolf wrote:

@ Andius,

I make a mockery of many things, but nothing that I put my word to.

He may be a rogue, but he is an honourable one.

[Thod]

@Bluddwolf
I'm aware of the move (in real life) of the leader of Aragon. I could see that we don't get his reply in any reasonable time frame.
In this case it would be useful to get statements from individual companies. Your comment here seems quite contrary to what Atheory posted - but I shouldn't be surprised if we are talking about a chaotic settlement.
Any decision will be about the settlement not individual members. To deal with them is up to the settlement.

[Bluddwolf]

Midnight of Golgotha wrote:

You guys know Atheory is their main recruiter, right?

I'm calling this a very shrewd recruiting move. He can likely recruit dozens of combat PvP players who don't want to be chained by the NAP. Combat PvPers are constantly grumbling about the NAP.

This is just about the time where any players who are discontent with their first choice of settlements (especially if they also feel constrained by their settlement's upcoming policy on husk looting) would be looking to jump ship.

I'm guessing we'll see player numbers take a decided jump upwards at Atheory's settlement.

Atheory is the main recruiter for whom? You are welcome to visit the UNC website, and you'll find AGC is not there. They have their own website / own gaming community and own TS.

Atheory is the main recruiter for AGC, none of his recruits have joined UNC. His company's growth is largely due to his activity, AGC being primarily a crafting company, and PFO being primarily a Crafting Sim.

Most people don't know that Atheory is "our" main recruiter, including myself.

[Bluddwolf]

Thod wrote:

@Bluddwolf

I'm aware of the move (in real life) of the leader of Aragon. I could see that we don't get his reply in any reasonable time frame.
In this case it would be useful to get statements from individual companies. Your comment here seems quite contrary to what Atheory posted - but I shouldn't be surprised if we are talking about a chaotic settlement.
Any decision will be about the settlement not individual members. To deal with them is up to the settlement.

The Goodfellow has completed his move and that is when the companies that were pending application were admitted. That was late night on Saturday (10:20 PM) 1-18-15.

I was made aware about LOne Wolf Clan holding alpha six towers of K-Berz prior to their entry to Aragon, and that matter was negotiated with the Nation of Xeilias. The entry of AGC and their holding these towers may or may not have been prior to Saturday, but we will obviously not contest their return to rightful owners even if that were the case.

[Midnight of Golgotha]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Midnight of Golgotha wrote:

You guys know Atheory is their main recruiter, right?

I'm calling this a very shrewd recruiting move. He can likely recruit dozens of combat PvP players who don't want to be chained by the NAP. Combat PvPers are constantly grumbling about the NAP.

This is just about the time where any players who are discontent with their first choice of settlements (especially if they also feel constrained by their settlement's upcoming policy on husk looting) would be looking to jump ship.

I'm guessing we'll see player numbers take a decided jump upwards at Atheory's settlement.

Atheory is the main recruiter for whom? You are welcome to visit the UNC website, and you'll find AGC is not there. They have their own website / own gaming community and own TS.

Atheory is the main recruiter for AGC, none of his recruits have joined UNC. His company's growth is largely due to his activity, AGC being primarily a crafting company, and PFO being primarily a Crafting Sim.

Most people don't know that Atheory is "our" main recruiter, including myself.

My mistake. I should have been clearer that he was his COMPANY'S main recruiter. Without that clarification, I can (now) see where a reader might assume I meant he was his settlement's main recruiter (since most of the thread is focusing on settlement politics).

I still maintain that it was a shrewd recruiting move, though.

I also maintain my prediction that their numbers will increase because of it.

[Kobold Catgirl]

So many stories of "rogue companies" from all these different settlements. I wonder when they'll cross the line and actually turn out to be quietly sanctioned by leadership? I doubt that's happening right now, but I doubt even more that that will stick for long. Only a complete ninny would ignore the potential goldmine of "I can grab people's towers while they promise to leave mine alone."

When the NAP does collapse, it'll be from a gradual shifting of credibilities as we start to realize more and more settlements are quietly instructing their companies to cheat. Very few will actually be caught doing it deliberately, but we'll all know at least a couple are. This is my theory.

I look forward to the spread of entropy, even though I belong to one of those settlements more likely to be a target than a perpetrator. ;)

[Nihimon]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I was not aware of this, and would like to have some confirmation as to when the screen shot and tower in question was taken?

The screenshot was obviously taken during Aragon's PvP Window, which means the Tower had already been captured when the server came up yesterday.

Bluddwolf wrote:

If it were paste Midnight of last night, that is Wednesday, the agreed upon day when unclaimed alpha six towers were up for grabs.

As others have already pointed out, the week isn't up until after the server reset today.

Bluddwolf wrote:

I make a mockery of many things, but nothing that I put my word to.

I actually believe this.

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

I'd prefer to hear something official from the settlement manager for Aragon first, and think we can afford to give them at least 72 hours from time of violation to respond officially. In the meantime we can certainly start setting up a tribunal.

I remind all parties that a violation does not end the contract, and any settlement agent who attempts to collect capture points in Aragon before the tribunal rules is putting their own settlement in violation and at risk of losing protection.

For the record, if any other Settlement were to take one of Phaeros's Core 6 Towers, we would not hesitate to immediately take at least an equal number of theirs. If we can't rely on the Tribunal to properly work out something so obvious and simple, then there's no reason for anyone to honor the NAP at all.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Nihimon wrote:

For the record, if any other Settlement were to take one of Phaeros's Core 6 Towers, we would not hesitate to immediately take at least an equal number of theirs. If we can't rely on the Tribunal to properly work out something so obvious and simple, then there's no reason for anyone to honor the NAP at all.

Alternatively, the death knell of NAPtime will be something like this. :P

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

Nihimon wrote:

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

I remind all parties that a violation does not end the contract, and any settlement agent who attempts to collect capture points in Aragon before the tribunal rules is putting their own settlement in violation and at risk of losing protection.

For the record, if any other Settlement were to take one of Phaeros's Core 6 Towers, we would not hesitate to immediately take at least an equal number of theirs. If we can't rely on the Tribunal to properly work out something so obvious and simple, then there's no reason for anyone to honor the NAP at all.

I did say "putting at risk." I have a hard time imagining any tribunal ruling that a settlement defending itself from a prior aggression constitutes a violation. Certainly if anyone from Hammerforge chooses to attack Aragon's core six, I would not vote to remove them from the NAP under the existing circumstances.

That said, there's likely a violation, and there's a complaint. If we can't deal with it as we said we would, then any contracts we make aren't worth the effort we spend negotiating them.

If anyone's training is at risk today, they should say so now. Otherwise, in my opinion, everyone should cool down and let the process go on.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

Elements in Allegiant Gemstone Company have indicated before that they'd prefer a free-for-all. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to indulge their whims.

[TEO Cheatle]

From what I have heard, including what has happened in TEO, there is an element joining multiple companies taking single towers (or attempting too).

[Nihimon]

@Cal, I didn't mean to suggest the process shouldn't move forward as you said. Giving folks time to figure out what happened internally and deal with it makes perfect sense. I just wanted to make clear that folks shouldn't feel so constrained by the NAP that they can't defend their interests.

Even if the NAP violation by Aragon is a completely innocent mistake and the Tribunal finds no fault, it should be obvious to anyone that a claim by Aragon against Hammerforge, if Hammerforge were to retaliate, should be dismissed.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

Elements in Allegiant Gemstone Company

Hee. I bet there are some uneasy spirits in Tavernhold, too. And probably in UNC itself, but the conspirators will go unnamed. No doubt the Empire of Xeilias packs some similar sentiments. Personally, though, I suspect the guys from Forgeholm the most. They're a crafty lot.

[Thod]

Could we please get an advocate for Aragon so that we can follow the procedure outlined and so that the whole lot doesn't becomes a mockery.

As far as I can tell it looks like Cal (Ozems Vigil) will be the one I need to chat to for Hammerforge.

I know some people might want to have this resolved immidiately - but we have to deal with real life and different time zones. I offered my first available timeslot after I read about it this morning and I'm monitoring any news on this boards since.

Edit: I have somewhere Cal's e-mail - so we can always do this via e-mail if it turns out that a direct meeting poses difficult / can't be arranged tonight.

[-Aet- Charlie]

Atheory wrote:

Since Golgotha wants to help call me out, feel free to ding them for allowing Callambea from taking core towers around Iron Gauntlet.

I no longer lead Callambea (I hold no official position, I only offer advice or take direction when asked) but I do check the associated forums revolving around PfO multiple times a day.

I just wanted to drop a reply to let those rightfully concerned in this thread know that Kard Warstein (the current leader) has begun an investigation and has made the citizenship aware that while it is being conducted that such behavior is unacceptable.

I expect he will be in contact through this thread or directly with tribunal representatives as soon as he is back at his computer. Until he returns I wanted to make sure everyone knew that this infraction is not being ignored.

Cheers,

CG

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

I am unwilling to participate until Aragon has had some time to respond. There is nothing life-or-death about this situation, and to leap into a tribunal so quickly is unacceptable from my point of view.

[Thod]

Thanks for the update Aet Charlie

This could become a busy week for me.

If anyone else knows about infractions from his own settlement - the earlier you post them the easier it is to resolve.

[Nihimon]

The Tower NAP does not have any requirement for a "speedy resolution", nor does it have any provisions for how to handle a situation where the Accused refuses to participate. This is not a flaw. The Tribunal is free to consider any and all evidence in their attempt to discover a just resolution, including evidence from other pending investigations, and including the behavior of all parties related to any investigation.

[KarlBob]

Nuclear arms in the Middle East
Israel is attacking the Iraqis
The Syrians are mad at the Lebanese
And Baghdad does whatever she please
Looks like another threat to world peace
For the envoy

Things got hot in El Salvador
CIA got caught and couldn't do no more
He's got diplomatic immunity
He's got a lethal weapon that nobody sees
Looks like another threat to world peace
For the envoy
Send the envoy
Send the envoy

Warren Zevon - "The Envoy"

[Bluddwolf]

I do not see how Aragon can get representation that is independent of the three blocks currently involved, unless we rely on a settlement that is empty. That seems to be a flaw.

TEO lodged the complaint, which is their right. They choose Ozims Vigil to represent the interests of Hammerfall (Ozims being another power block). We can not be represented by any member of Northern Coalition, the third power block. Thod can not represent us because he is neutral arbiter.

That leaves no other active party, as far as I can tell.

Ryan wins the pool! I guess it was inevitable, but certainly it was not my intention for Aragon to violate it. I'm also not sure it could have been avoided based on the timeline of our issue with not being able to invite new companies until Saturday, a good 3 days into WoT. I spent 5 hours per day capturing our alpha six and a few others, solo.

I will wait for Goodfellow to respond, it is my late night if work and I won't be in touch with him for another 9 hours.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I think considering anyone from the Vigil's power block to be non-neutral is a bit excessive (they aren't suddenly allies of Everbloom just because one of their number is basically their lawyer), but I'm not familiar with the exact system.

[Thod]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I do not see how Aragon can get representation that is independent of the three blocks currently involved, unless we rely on a settlement that is empty. That seems to be a flaw.

TEO lodged the complaint, which is their right. They choose Ozims Vigil to represent the interests of Hammerfall (Ozims being another power block). We can not be represented by any member of Northern Coalition, the third power block. Thod can not represent us because he is neutral arbiter.

That leaves no other active party, as far as I can tell.

Ryan wins the pool! I guess it was inevitable, but certainly it was not my intention for Aragon to violate it. I'm also not sure it could have been avoided based on the timeline of our issue with not being able to invite new companies until Saturday, a good 3 days into WoT. I spent 5 hours per day capturing our alpha six and a few others, solo.

I will wait for Goodfellow to respond, it is my late night if work and I won't be in touch with him for another 9 hours.

There is also the Aeonien League (if I got the spelling right from memory) with groups like Hope's End (Duffy) or Sunholm (Kadere).

I'm now off for a few hours and will be back late tonight (my time)

[Duffy]

@Bluddwolf

Given the pick of Ozem's Vigil (Highlanders) for the accusing side that would leave your choice of a High Road Covenant or Aeonian League defender, both of which have active players and settlement leaders.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

Representation requests are for a signatory, not a faction, with the specification that they must choose from outside their own faction.

Both groups should be able to choose different representatives from within the Free Highlanders, but if not, Talonguard and Kabal are not currently part of the Free Highlanders.

Further, at this moment, Ozem's has not accepted Brightahven's request to advocate on their behalf. If another request came, we would have to weigh the likelihood of each group finding an acceptable alternative and decide accordingly.

[Bluddwolf]

Duffy wrote:

@Bluddwolf

Given the pick of Ozem's Vigil (Highlanders) for the accusing side that would leave your choice of a High Road Covenant or Aeonian League defender, both of which have active players and settlement leaders.

That is a decision for Goodfellow, along with Aragon's council to make. But I thank you for the (offer) heads up.

[FMS Quietus]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I think considering anyone from the Vigil's power block to be non-neutral is a bit excessive (they aren't suddenly allies of Everbloom just because one of their number is basically their lawyer), but I'm not familiar with the exact system.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but let me be clear on this. The members of Ozem's Vigil tend to get along with each other really well most times. We also disagree often and have no problem sharing our own opinions. I think it's that type of discussion that has helped us and I'm very proud to be apart of it.

[Duffy]

@Cald

Hmmm you are correct. I think most of us just assumed you would not pick from the same power block to avoid any potential colluding. Ultimately it's up the whoever is picking their representative. The good news is there appears to be options either way so the system can still work.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

FMS Quietus wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I think considering anyone from the Vigil's power block to be non-neutral is a bit excessive (they aren't suddenly allies of Everbloom just because one of their number is basically their lawyer), but I'm not familiar with the exact system.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but let me be clear on this. The members of Ozem's Vigil tend to get along with each other really well most times. We also disagree often and have no problem sharing our own opinions. I think it's that type of discussion that has helped us and I'm very proud to be apart of it.

I'm pretty sure by "the Vigil's power block" the kobold meant the Free Highlanders, not the members of Ozem's

[Kobold Catgirl]

Thanks, Cal. Yeah, I was responding to Bluddwolf's post.