But you allowed the Enclosure, which includes an antimagic field. You've already allowed it. You can't allow part of a spell. You either allow the spell or you don't.
The argument is that the caster is going to first, since they have many ways to boost their initiative and then end the fight with a single no save just lose spell. They also have ways of preventing enemies from ever touching them from contingency to emergency force sphere to minions to just plain not actually being there. If there's a way Fighter's can get around all that I would love to hear it. I sincerely would.You make the assumption the wizard is just going to go first.
With no basis for the assumption. Going first can involve more than just rolling initiative. Possibly a lot more depending on your opponent.
I think the one who gets to ask the universe if their going to be in a fight on a particular day should get to go first. So... how does the Fighter play 20 questions with universe? Because casters use Contact Other Plane.
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I can still cast through the Projected Image. You actually made things harder on yourself. And again... are you mean to force damage? Cause stacked Explosive Runes will ruin your day. I can also remove immunity to mind-affecting, so you aren't even safe from my Limited Wishes duplicating Geas/Quest. So... ya.My fighter...
Immune to mind affecting affects (Unbreakable archetype). Geas beaten. Mythic Sense (sees thru illusions as illusions). Project Images beaten.
So, what was your minions initiative?
Can he detect me and react before I can kill him?
Will that alpha strike actually do anything? Mythic has powers that allow a character to say "but that was not me", after that fact.
And yea, a wish (back to assuming unlimited wealth) that duplicates a mind-affecting spell is going to be ineffective vs. opponents immune to mind affecting spells.
When was time stopped again? I must have missed that part. That would require an action and I doubt the wizard would have one. And 9000 dmg is pretty high from d4 +1 rounds... and explosive runes is commonly memorized that many times a day.
I use the same spells every time this argument comes up. It's hardly Schrodinger at this point.Actually the Wizard loses, because he has no stats.
Everyone is picking apart the mythic fighter build that was presented as if the mythic wizard could cast anything and everything from its spellbook at will, knew the fighter had no immunity to mind-affecting spells(or did know in case of the unbreakable archetype suggestion), and could totally beat the fighter in initiative because reasons(remember the wizard hasn't been stated yet).
So when the fighter enters the arena to face down the imaginary wizard a dog farts, distracting the people who are imagining the all-knowing and all-powerful being. Thus whats existence that creature had fades until nothing is left:
FIGHTER WINS!
Cool, then the fighter steps into the arena with a spellbook. To bad there is no character holding/using it. Maybe if we saw some stats....
Otherwise:
FIGHTER WINS VS UNATTENDED SPELLBOOK
Builds do not prove anything. In fact, they tend to highlight the builder's skills rather then the class or ability being discussed.
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Why are you assuming the fighter is closer to the runes than you are? Actually, why are you assuming you have home field advantage? If I was going to kill a 20th level wizard it wouldn't be at his base.
It seems to be pretty standard practice for these threads to assume that the wizurd has full access.to the.fighters state block, has months to prepare, has designed the.arena where the.fight takes place, and has multiple contingency spells.active.that don't have to be.defined until such time as not everything is going perfect for him.
Meanwhile, it is assumed that the fighter is naked, unarmed, and suffering from a severe case of diarrhea. Because....reasons.
When was time stopped again? I must have missed that part. That would require an action and I doubt the wizard would have one. And 9000 dmg is pretty high from d4 +1 rounds... and explosive runes is commonly memorized that many times a day.
Explosive Runes last forever. And you have a Fast Time Demiplane that gives you double the spells per (outside) day. It's not hard to spend a day of outside time creating over a 100 Explosive Runes. In fact, it's easy.
Why are you assuming the fighter is closer to the runes than you are? Actually, why are you assuming you have home field advantage? If I was going to kill a 20th level wizard it wouldn't be at his base.It seems to be pretty standard practice for these threads to assume that the wizurd has full access.to the.fighters state block, has months to prepare, has designed the.arena where the.fight takes place, and has multiple contingency spells.active.that don't have to be.defined until such time as not everything is going perfect for him.
Meanwhile, it is assumed that the fighter is naked, unarmed, and suffering from a severe case of diarrhea. Because....reasons.
What equipment would help you avoid no save, just lose tactics? Genuinely curious. And my tactics are... pretty much the same. Every time.
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What equipment would help you avoid no save, just lose tactics? Genuinely curious. And my tactics are... pretty much the same. Every time.Why are you assuming the fighter is closer to the runes than you are? Actually, why are you assuming you have home field advantage? If I was going to kill a 20th level wizard it wouldn't be at his base.It seems to be pretty standard practice for these threads to assume that the wizurd has full access.to the.fighters state block, has months to prepare, has designed the.arena where the.fight takes place, and has multiple contingency spells.active.that don't have to be.defined until such time as not everything is going perfect for him.
Meanwhile, it is assumed that the fighter is naked, unarmed, and suffering from a severe case of diarrhea. Because....reasons.
Anything that prevents you from targeting me.
The Ring of Invisibilty + Undetectable, for example.
Builds do not prove anything. In fact, they tend to highlight the builder's skills rather then the class or ability being discussed.I use the same spells every time this argument comes up. It's hardly Schrodinger at this point.Actually the Wizard loses, because he has no stats.
Everyone is picking apart the mythic fighter build that was presented as if the mythic wizard could cast anything and everything from its spellbook at will, knew the fighter had no immunity to mind-affecting spells(or did know in case of the unbreakable archetype suggestion), and could totally beat the fighter in initiative because reasons(remember the wizard hasn't been stated yet).
So when the fighter enters the arena to face down the imaginary wizard a dog farts, distracting the people who are imagining the all-knowing and all-powerful being. Thus whats existence that creature had fades until nothing is left:
FIGHTER WINS!
Cool, then the fighter steps into the arena with a spellbook. To bad there is no character holding/using it. Maybe if we saw some stats....
Otherwise:
FIGHTER WINS VS UNATTENDED SPELLBOOK
So you play Pathfinder without a character sheet with stats on it? Or how about this:
Instead of the fighter presented earlier, we have one that has no defined mythic abilities. Instead it has what we want it to have in order to counter any spell you cast. Also it has any magic item it needs. Because that is totes possible right?
Sure. What ability or magic item will help you against stacked Explosive Runes? I really would love to know here.
What equipment would help you avoid no save, just lose tactics? Genuinely curious. And my tactics are... pretty much the same. Every time.Why are you assuming the fighter is closer to the runes than you are? Actually, why are you assuming you have home field advantage? If I was going to kill a 20th level wizard it wouldn't be at his base.It seems to be pretty standard practice for these threads to assume that the wizurd has full access.to the.fighters state block, has months to prepare, has designed the.arena where the.fight takes place, and has multiple contingency spells.active.that don't have to be.defined until such time as not everything is going perfect for him.
Meanwhile, it is assumed that the fighter is naked, unarmed, and suffering from a severe case of diarrhea. Because....reasons.
Anything that prevents you from targeting me.
The Ring of Invisibilty + Undetectable, for example.
Explosive Runes don't target.
Ummm.... anyone can have access to spells. Although it does seem to be your point that only wizards do. And contact other plane starts to get into GM/RP territory. Who knows what the future holds? Actually the spell never mentions future knowledge anywhere... I'd consider that spell a strike.
Or be my guest. Lots of people consider 1's a failure. Are you asking that question 20 days in a row? No more spells 5% of the time.
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Sure. What ability or magic item will help you against stacked Explosive Runes? I really would love to know here.
You were detonating them where? When?
Your argument returns to "I assume unlimited resources, applied to the entire battlefield, before the fight begins."
While your spending months scribing spells, my Greater Blind Fight fighter sneaks up and hits you from behind.
They also don't litter the entire area in unlimited number, or proximity detonate. Someone has to take an action to read them.Explosive Runes don't target.
Artanthos... you know perfectly well what my tactic is by now right? So you know this isn't the case. I'll explain again though.
Greater Dispel Magic cast by a minion that has no hope of successfully dispelling the runes, will trigger all of them.
Ummm.... anyone can have access to spells. Although it does seem to be your point that only wizards do. And contact other plane starts to get into GM/RP territory. Who knows what the future holds? Actually the spell never mentions future knowledge anywhere... I'd consider that spell a strike.
Or be my guest. Lots of people consider 1's a failure. Are you asking that question 20 days in a row? No more spells 5% of the time.
I have access to rerolls.
Or is the wizard coming back with those 1000s of explosive runes. Does that mean all the fighter has to do is ready an action to dispel them all and then the wizard takes 9k?
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full access.to the.fighters state block
Probably the most 'powerful' out of all the assumptions.
For instance, the assumption that any fight against a non-immune fighter is ended on round one by a geas cast via limited wish does shut down non-immune fighters pretty hard.
But somehow the theorycrafting fight against immune fighters never opens up with a failed attempt to use geas with limited wish.
Or is the wizard coming back with those 1000s of explosive runes. Does that mean all the fighter has to do is ready an action to dispel them all and then the wizard takes 9k?
I use free days on the fast time plane to stockpile them. I don't need to prepare some for a given fight.
full access.to the.fighters state blockProbably the most 'powerful' out of all the assumptions.
Completely irrelevant actually. My go to tactic would still be stockpiled Explosive Runes. I would still like to hear about that ability/magic item that will stop them.
Or is the wizard coming back with those 1000s of explosive runes. Does that mean all the fighter has to do is ready an action to dispel them all and then the wizard takes 9k?I use free days on the fast time plane to stockpile them. I don't need to prepare some for a given fight.
Not what I said. How do all of these runes get to where this battle is? 1000 scrolls in the open air? Since this is a common wizard tactic, known by all you said, why can't the fighter dispel them?
Mythic Johnny Bowman Fighter 20, Champion(M) 10
NG Huge Human
lnit +32;
Senses blind sense 30', darkvision 60', low-light vision, true seeing;
Perception +23
DEFENSE
AC 55 (+14 armor, +4 deflection, Dex +6, +1 dodge, +4 insight, +4 luck, +4 morale, +6 natural, +4 sacred, -2 size) Touch 35, Flat Footed 48
HP 394 (20d10+274)
Fort +51, Ref +43, +38 Will
DR 5/-, regeneration 5
OFFENSE
Speed 40', swim 60'
Ranged +5 Distance, Seeking Darkwood Composite Longbow (STR +22) +47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47 (4d6+77/19-20/x5) 1100' First range increment. Manyshot on first two shots.
Space 15’, Reach 15’
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 22)
6/day – Touch of Rage
STATISTICS
STR 54, DEX 22, CON 28, INT 7, WIS 10, CHA 16
Base Atk +20, CMB +45, CMD 61
Feats: Arcane Strike, Cosmopolitan, Deadly Aim, Eldritch Heritage (Orc), Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow), Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow), Improved Eldritch Heritage, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will, Magical Aptitude, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Survival), Toughness, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Deadly Aim (Mythic), Improved Critical (Mythic), Improved Eldritch Heritage (Mythic), Improved Initiative (Mythic), Manyshot (Mythic), Rapid Shot (Mythic), Weapon Focus (Mythic), Weapon Specialization (Mythic), Optimistic Gambler (T), Reactionary (T)
Special Abilities: Bravery +4, Armor Training, Armor Mastery, Weapon Training, Weapon Mastery, Hard to Kill, Amazing Initiative, Recuperation, Mythic Saves, Force of Will, Unstoppable, Immortal, Legendary Hero, Surge 1d12, Extra Mythic Feat, Extra Mythic Feat, Extra Mythic Feat, Limitless Range, Precision, Precision, Precision, Enhanced Ability, Mythic Sight, Mythic Sight
Gear: Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Archery Greater, Cape of the Mounteback, Efficient Quiver, Gloves of Dueling, Headband of Alluring, Robe of Arcane Heritage, 4000 Arrows, Srcoll (3x Giant Form II), +4 DISMaL Ring of AC Boosting, +5 SIMPLR Ring of Save Boosting, +5 Mithril Full Plate
Permanent Spells: Giant Form II, Gravity Bow
Tactics- Autowin Initiative (Declare 20 for 52 after roll), Use Amazing Initiative to activate Touch of Rage, Swift to Active Arcane Strike, Full Attack (7 attacks, 9 arrows), Use surge ability to make at least one attack a critical hit, Avg 1331 hp damage. For Cthulhu, during time when it is reforming move out to 1000 ft and ready action to full attack while staggered after reforming.
Built for one purpose: defeat Cthulhu. Runs at the site of 17th level wizards (and still dies.)
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full access.to the.fighters state blockProbably the most 'powerful' out of all the assumptions.
For instance, the assumption that any fight against a non-immune fighter is ended on round one by a geas cast via limited wish does shut down non-immune fighters pretty hard.
But somehow the theorycrafting fight against immune fighters never opens up with a failed attempt to use geas with limited wish.
This is a hugely valid point.
Not what I said. How do all of these runes get to where this battle is? 1000 scrolls in the open air? Since this is a common wizard tactic, known by all you said, why can't the fighter dispel them?Or is the wizard coming back with those 1000s of explosive runes. Does that mean all the fighter has to do is ready an action to dispel them all and then the wizard takes 9k?I use free days on the fast time plane to stockpile them. I don't need to prepare some for a given fight.
Time is stopped. They can be held in backpack and then dumped out. While Time is Stopped. The minion can have a readied action to dispel them as soon as they appear (evidently out of thin air). Of course you use the rest of the time to not be there after you dump them.
The god that owes the fighter a favor, and whom you have been contacting, teleports the fighter into your demiplane while you are standing next to your stockpile. Fighter hits the stockpile with dispel. Wizard dies.Or is the wizard coming back with those 1000s of explosive runes. Does that mean all the fighter has to do is ready an action to dispel them all and then the wizard takes 9k?I use free days on the fast time plane to stockpile them. I don't need to prepare some for a given fight.
That is fiat. Having a god help you is not an ability or magic item.
Edit @ BigDTBone: I'd open with Explosive Runes. If that would fail. I admit a round would be wasted. But I haven't seen an ability or magic item that can prevent it yet. Or a way to become immune to Force Damage. If I knew these things, you can bet your last GP I'd be using them.
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They also don't litter the entire area in unlimited number, or proximity detonate. Someone has to take an action to read them.Explosive Runes don't target.
Artanthos... you know perfectly well what my tactic is by now right? So you know this isn't the case. I'll explain again though.
Greater Dispel Magic cast by a minion that has no hope of successfully dispelling the runes, will trigger all of them.
How did that minion detect me again?
Even in the highly unlikely case it does detect me, can it act before I kill it? Doubtful as a fighter.
Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
It doesn't. It's not targeting you. It's using the area version of Greater Dispel Magic to detonate the runes.
Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
52 is nothing though. I'm at +43 before Moment of Prescience.
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As for a way around explosive runes. Spell Immunity? It does say SR yes. Pretty simple to get around that.
How about I just approach with a leaf blower, aka Black Feather Fan?
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minion doesn't need to detect you, his only job is to dispel that pile of papers on the floor
That only works if everyone is standing in a very small room. You know your opponent is standing there. You act before your opponent.
Otherwise, you've got to be close to your target. You've got to know when your target is approaching you. After you figure out he is approaching, you've got to act before your opponent does.
BTW Anzyr, I thought that was how we are fighting, with fiats. Because there are certainly no numbers or stats here.Its a spell, one you use.That is fiat. Having a god help you is not an ability or magic item.The god that owes the fighter a favor, and whom you have been contacting, teleports the fighter into your demiplane while you are standing next to your stockpile. Fighter hits the stockpile with dispel. Wizard dies.Or is the wizard coming back with those 1000s of explosive runes. Does that mean all the fighter has to do is ready an action to dispel them all and then the wizard takes 9k?I use free days on the fast time plane to stockpile them. I don't need to prepare some for a given fight.
There doesn't need to be. I'm using abilities that a 20th level Wizard has. You are not using abilities that a 20th level Fighter mythic or otherwise has. Thus fiat.
And I use the same abilities each time I discuss this. So they are known.
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52 is nothing though. I'm at +43 before Moment of Prescience.Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
And I'm undetectable.
Stand around rolling initiative all day. When are you acting?
52 is nothing though. I'm at +43 before Moment of Prescience.Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
And looking at the spell, does not add to initiative. So what are you getting at?
minion doesn't need to detect you, his only job is to dispel that pile of papers on the floorThat only works if everyone is standing in a very small room. You know your opponent is standing there. You act before your opponent.
Otherwise, you've got to be close to your target. You've got to know when your target is approaching you. After you figure out he is approaching, you've got to act before your opponent does.
Of course, if I wanted to I could have quite a large area spammed with Greater Dispel Magic. Again, that's just a Fighter to not lose. It doesn't actually help the Fighter win.
And looking at the spell, does not add to initiative. So what are you getting at?52 is nothing though. I'm at +43 before Moment of Prescience.Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
Initiative is a DEX check.