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Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest has no save. So no. It also can't be spell parried for the same reason. Saves don't matter against high level casters. Just immunities.Uh... I think you've been misreading Limited Wish.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell.Not to say I think the Fighter is gonna win this fight, I don't, I just think we need to make sure we're not making the Wizard better than he should be.
Good thing the normal save for Geas/Quest is "No."
Lawyering (as in giving airtight commands) is a player skill. The character's ranks in whatever are completely irrelevant. I can give an airtight command with 0 ranks.
Anzyr, I have to completely disagree with this.
My position is that a higher intelligence character could phrase things in a way such that no loopholes would remain.
I am going to be nice and say that my players and I are all somewhere between a 10-12 Int. I personally think we all hug near the bottom of that.
Now I cannot even conceive of what the thought process of an Int 36 person is like, but I honestly believe that they could make a nigh-unbeatable command.
Basically, I believe that the character not the player is always the lens all actions should be seen and taken through.
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...And because you are casting it through Limited Wish the usual casting time of 10 minutes is reduced to a standard action. So you get all of the benefits and none of the drawbacks.
I have a lot of words to say about high level spellcasting in Pathfinder and none of them are suitable for this forum
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With artifacts, the lines between caster and martial become blurred. Even a straight fighter can access substantial spellcasting ability.
The fighter with an intelligent artifact has access to Geas and Wish. Alternately, he could have Invisibility, Greater Invisibility and Mind Blank, meaning he is not a valid target for most SoS spells.
Everyone keeps spouting Geas/Quest as the ultimate way to beat a fighter. But it's overcome by the fighter the Unbreakable archetype found in Ultimate Combat. This makes him/her immune to mind affecting effects at level 20.
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As to killing this guy change the environment to death trap. Lava pit comes to mind but if fire immunity is a thing then use acid. Or build an arbitrary amount of simulacrums during you time stop and cast gate next to the fighter.
If you are allowing arbitrary and unlimited wealth, anyone with UMD can do the same.
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Or the tier 3 ability to be immune to compulsions?Fighter in question does not have it.The caster in question could just get the feat to count as a mythic source.
Don't see that feat listed in the PRD.
And if you want to kill a wizard just have an item of anti magic zone as long as we're lawyering. Don't even need mythic.
With artifacts, the lines between caster and martial become blurred. Even a straight fighter can access substantial spellcasting ability.
The fighter with an intelligent artifact has access to Geas and Wish. Alternately, he could have Invisibility, Greater Invisibility and Mind Blank, meaning he is not a valid target for most SoS spells.
Of course, if the Fighter has to become a pseudo-caster in order to actually beat a caster, then that says something all by itself..
Or the tier 3 ability to be immune to compulsions?Fighter in question does not have it.The caster in question could just get the feat to count as a mythic source.
Don't see that feat listed in the PRD.
And if you want to kill a wizard just have an item of anti magic zone as long as we're lawyering. Don't even need mythic.
High level Wizard/Sorcerers are immune to Antimagic Field thanks to Aroden's Spellbane. Sorry, better luck next time.
@ Bradley Mickle - Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest is an easy to beat *most* enemies. There are other options for people immune to mind-affecting or compulsions though. They also are "No save, just lose."
But the point is now you've bypassed Geas. And a mythic fighter would easily be able to span hundreds of feet in a round, thus closing a gap very quickly. Once he's in melee range, it turns the tables readily. I'd select an Elven Curve Blade so I have a nice crit range of 15-20, and take Critical Mastery with Deafening and Blinding Critical. If the wizard can't see or hear, it puts him/her at a significant disadvantage.
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Of course, if the Fighter has to become a pseudo-caster in order to actually beat a caster, then that says something all by itself..With artifacts, the lines between caster and martial become blurred. Even a straight fighter can access substantial spellcasting ability.
The fighter with an intelligent artifact has access to Geas and Wish. Alternately, he could have Invisibility, Greater Invisibility and Mind Blank, meaning he is not a valid target for most SoS spells.
In a real tabletop environment, it would never come to that. The wizard and fighter would have real character sheets with all choices written down ahead of time. Something as simple as using stealth to ensure you act first is all it takes to "win". The person who goes second will never go.
Then transfer magic can remove that spell nearly for free. This is a pretty pointless series of if/then statements. But I suppose that's the thread's purpose.
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well that's why it's important to know what are the limits? Because a wizard 20 with 6 contingencies that he can put on himself...there are some mean combos that you can do with this ridiculous amount of spells. Like becoming Immune to crit by becoming incorporeal is definitely going to be one of the contingencies.
Also, I always like the idea of "Undetectable" on the mythic legendary weapon and a simple Ring of Invisibility. Once invisible, the wielder is unable to be detected or scryed by any method. Thus avoiding the wizard knowing what's coming for him.
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Then transfer magic can remove that spell nearly for free. This is a pretty pointless series of if/then statements. But I suppose that's the thread's purpose.
Aye, until character sheets are written down, it's all Schondinger's. There is always a way to counter everything until choices are actually made.
For example: Ring of Invisibility + Legendary Item (undetectable). You cannot locate me, by any means. If I can locate you, I win. This applies equally for both the wizard and the fighter.
Then transfer magic can remove that spell nearly for free. This is a pretty pointless series of if/then statements. But I suppose that's the thread's purpose.
How is the Warpriest's ability to move a weapon enhancement going to help you?
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well that's why it's important to know what are the limits? Because a wizard 20 with 6 contingencies that he can put on himself...there are some mean combos that you can do with this ridiculous amount of spells. Like becoming Immune to crit by becoming incorporeal is definitely going to be one of the contingencies.
That is when the martial starts investing in weapon enhancements like Anchoring, Ghost Touch and Spell Stealing.
There is always an answer until characters are finalized.
Transfer Magic (Su): Your mythic nature allows you to take magic from others as easily as you could take their gold. By expending one use of mythic power as a standard action, you can make a melee touch attack to transfer an active magical effect from a target creature to you. If you succeed, the highest-level effect on the target transfers to you (determine randomly if the target has multiple effects with the same level), ending the effect for the target and continuing it on you with the remaining duration as if you were the original target. You may end the effect on yourself as a standard action; this doesn't cause it to revert to the original target. If the transferred magic can't affect you (for example, if it doesn't affect creatures of your type), it ends immediately as if dispelled. You can't use this ability to transfer continuous bonuses from magic items, such as an armor bonus from bracers of armor.
A 1st tier ability that can strip 9th lvl spells. Not too bad.
Also from the PRD, unlike spellbane had to google that one.
Melee attack. So useless.
Lol. I guess I missed the part where those are useless. In that case, you're right. Your wisdom has shown that a fighter cannot beat a wizard.
You should have lead with that argument.
Or read up on mythic powers first.
The argument is that the caster is going to first, since they have many ways to boost their initiative and then end the fight with a single no save just lose spell. They also have ways of preventing enemies from ever touching them from contingency to emergency force sphere to minions to just plain not actually being there. If there's a way Fighter's can get around all that I would love to hear it. I sincerely would.
Okay, so what "just lose" spell? Retreat for the wizard is, essentially, a loss for the purpose of this argument. Because if he's leaving, he's conceding defeat.
My fighter...
Immune to mind affecting affects (Unbreakable archetype). Geas beaten. Mythic Sense (sees thru illusions as illusions). Project Images beaten.
Despite the fact that there are counters to those spells. And a non-mythic caster can get up to initiative 40-50 all the time w/o rolling dice? As a non-min maxed mythic character can.
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My favorite is stacked Explosive Runes detonated by a bound minion that can't actaully dispel them. But there's also the aforementioned Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest and Mage's Magnificent Enclosure combined with Aroden's Spellbane naming it and enough shrunk lava or acid to fill it. There's really several if you look through the spell list. Like I said, saves don't matter at high level. Either you are immune or you lose.
There is no counter to stacked Explosive Runes, unless you have some means of getting immunity to Force Damage. And yes, my non-mythic caster has +43 without using Moment of Prescience.
Okay, so what "just lose" spell? Retreat for the wizard is, essentially, a loss for the purpose of this argument. Because if he's leaving, he's conceding defeat.Geas Fighter: Retreat.
I laughed out loud.
My fighter...
Immune to mind affecting affects (Unbreakable archetype). Geas beaten. Mythic Sense (sees thru illusions as illusions). Project Images beaten.
I can still cast through the Projected Image. You actually made things harder on yourself. And again... are you mean to force damage? Cause stacked Explosive Runes will ruin your day. I can also remove immunity to mind-affecting, so you aren't even safe from my Limited Wishes duplicating Geas/Quest. So... ya.
Spellbane has a 10 foot emanation centered on you. Are you going to get that close to the "useless melee" fighter?
How are you removing something that's a class ability?
You're going to force the fighter to read the runes? Or you obviously believe in the most liberal interpretation of that spell... which isn't its intent.
And that initiative total was for a tier 5 character with a 10 Dex. So your total could easily be beaten.
Straight up damage (such as Explosive Runes) can't be directly avoided. But now it's up to my Evasion and double Lightning Reflexes (basic and Improved).
Spellbane has a 10 foot emanation centered on you. Are you going to get that close to the "useless melee" fighter?
Sure, because if I'm using the Mage's Magnicent Enclosure Tactic, I won't be by the Fighter when the round ends. And one I leave the area the MME that was being Suppressed by my Aroden's Spellbane will take effect, turn the shrunken lava/acid to normal size and kill anything inside that does not have (Ex) resistance to fire/acid.
That's the only time I'd have to get close. The main point of my Aroden's Spellbane selection is to prevent my buffs from being dispelled or other wise lost.
Hrm... its boring telling people how to do things all the times. But there absolutely is a way to remove your immunity to mind-affecting. I'll give one hint. It's from a Simulacrum that all high level casters will have so they can have their casting stat at 45. Happy hunting!
Straight up damage (such as Explosive Runes) can't be directly avoided. But now it's up to my Evasion and double Lightning Reflexes (basic and Improved).
You cannot evade them if they are close enough to be read. So good game?
@Seannoss - I explicitly said above that a bound minion that was guaranteed to fail to dispel them would be using greater dispel magic on them.
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Wizards can be book binders. It is an int based skill.Gear is just as important as mythic tiers for the fighter, and he got that from a caster. If the fighter could ever win, it is because he got caster help.I've heard that argument before - and I have to say - it's a bad argument. By that logic - wizards are weak because they can only do anything if they have a spellbook, and spellbooks are created by bookbinders. So bookbinders are in fact more powerful than wizards. And papermakers are more powerful than bookbinders... lumberjacks are more powerful than papermakers... etc. It's a flawed argument.
Yes - but unless a single wizard learns how to be a bookbinder/papermaker/inkmaker/lumberjack/blacksmith/woodworker/miner etc - he'd still be in the theoretical power of someone. My logic stands.
The Enclosure creates an antimagic field within. So within the sphere of force, there's an antimagic field. So you're Spellbane wouldn't exist within it. You can't pick parts of a spell to go and parts of it not to. The enclosure is one spell, not two.
My spellbane is set to include both antimagic field and mage's magnificent enclosure along with Mage's Disjunction, Aroden's Spellbane and Greater Dispel Magic (I have a separate way to avoid regular Dispel Magic). Thus, the MME will be suppressed by my spellbane until I leave.
So then the spells are allowed, meaning within the sphere is an antimagic field. How are you casting into it when the spell says you can't?
No, Aroden's Spellbane is set to suppress certain spells. Thus while it is suppressed by Aroden's Spellbane you can cast spells inside.
Why are you assuming the fighter is closer to the runes than you are? Actually, why are you assuming you have home field advantage? If I was going to kill a 20th level wizard it wouldn't be at his base.
Against a mythic character, it would be far more likely that they would get the drop on you (and take 1-2 standard actions), beat you on initiative; likely lower your defenses (as described above) and then deal between 200-2000hp dmg on a full attack. According to mythic boards this can be done around 12th level.
So barring an immediate action or two, like most high level fights, one side isn't going to get to go.
Because the runes are placed there while time is stopped. And the minion that is dispelling them along with myself don't have to be particularly close to set them off. Really there's no way to avoid it. So even if you survive the 9,999+ damage from them. You won't be to close the gap. Even if you do there is still Emergency Force Sphere and Contingencies to contend with.
Right, Aroden's Spellbane supresses all spells except those named. One of those named was the Enclosure. You've now creating a separate source of antimagic that is functioning. Doesn't matter that you've named spells to function because you named antimagic field (essentially) as a functioning spell. Thus it functions.
Right, Aroden's Spellbane supresses all spells except those named. One of those named was the Enclosure. You've now creating a separate source of antimagic that is functioning. Doesn't matter that you've named spells to function because you named antimagic field (essentially) as a functioning spell. Thus it functions.
No antimagic field is explicitly a disallowed spell. I believe you are confused. Let me find one of other posts to explain the tactic.
Aroden's Spellbane set to Mage's Disjunction, Mage's Magnificent Enclosure, Antimagic Field, Aroden's Spellbane and Greater Dispel Magic.
Approaching an enemy with the above active, casting Mage's Magnificent Enclosure (which will be suppressed by your Spellbane), dropping a stack of Shrink Item Lava or Acid. And then Teleporting away. Enclosure is no longer suppresed trapping the enemy without any magical abilities and 20d6 lave damage a round. A great no save way to kill anyone who does not have Ex Fire and Acid resistance.
Actually the Wizard loses, because he has no stats.
Everyone is picking apart the mythic fighter build that was presented as if the mythic wizard could cast anything and everything from its spellbook at will, knew the fighter had no immunity to mind-affecting spells(or did know in case of the unbreakable archetype suggestion), and could totally beat the fighter in initiative because reasons(remember the wizard hasn't been stated yet).
So when the fighter enters the arena to face down the imaginary wizard a dog farts, distracting the people who are imagining the all-knowing and all-powerful being. Thus whats existence that creature had fades until nothing is left:
FIGHTER WINS!
I use the same spells every time this argument comes up. It's hardly Schrodinger at this point.
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The argument is that the caster is going to first, since they have many ways to boost their initiative and then end the fight with a single no save just lose spell. They also have ways of preventing enemies from ever touching them from contingency to emergency force sphere to minions to just plain not actually being there. If there's a way Fighter's can get around all that I would love to hear it. I sincerely would.
You make the assumption the wizard is just going to go first.
With no basis for the assumption. Going first can involve more than just rolling initiative. Possibly a lot more depending on your opponent.