Increasing Female Participation

[DM Under The Bridge]

Jessica Price wrote:

I'm leery of even bothering to participate in these threads anymore, but two things:

1) No, women aren't delicate snowflakes, we're not a monolith, we want different things, and so on. In general, gaming spaces could be made more welcoming to women if people just observed basic courtesy and care in playing with anyone they don't know well.

--Target groups' gore levels, explicit sexual content, etc. to the level of the least comfortable person in the group. (E.g. if someone appears uncomfortable with gory descriptions of injuries, either stop describing injuries in detail, or don't play with them; don't assume you can force them to "get over it.")

--Ask before explaining. Instead of assuming that a stranger you're playing with doesn't know how to do a combat maneuver and coming across as a condescending jerk when you start explaining how to do it, either don't say anything unless they ask for help, or ask if they'd like an explanation. Also saves you from looking like an idiot if it turns out they know more about it than you do. (See: Paizocon attendee at the hotel bar who started explaining Pathfinder to me before asking if I knew what it was, and only thought to ask where I worked after he finished describing tabletop RPGs.)

--On the flip-side, be patient with newbies. If someone doesn't understand something, don't be condescending, don't treat them like an idiot, don't act annoyed or impatient, don't act superior. You were a noob once, too. If you're asked to explain, explain respectfully.

--Don't try to make people prove their "cred," or get into fandom-measuring contests with them at the gaming table. If you want to prove you know more than someone else, or make them feel inferior, that's why we have trivia contests.

--Assume that people are there to play the game, and nothing else. If you want to ask someone out, try to convince people to attend your event, sell them Amway, or whatever, wait until the session ends to do it. And if they tell you they're not interested,...

That is a lot of don’ts, checks and double-checks.

With all that, how is one to properly focus on the game? To put the full immersive attention to playing it, or wow, running it (that takes a lot of work and focus, as you know).

If all male players should be always self-examining their behaviour, what a burden you wish to impose. I reject it—as there are games to be played with friends and family, and not constant reflexivity exercises.

In a group with excellent female representation, how is it a male-dominated space? Gaming isn’t always a male dominated space (personally many of the people I play with online, at table, and elsewhere are actually not male). Women can roleplay just as capably as men, with presence and able to follow their own interests—this is why I agree with Simply Gabriele so strongly.

When men and women playing together, are the males pursuing some sort of dominance? This isn’t a given nor should it be assumed men are pursuing dominance, or control, or tyranny. They can just be sitting there working out the numbers, waiting for their turn to roll and roleplay. Not every male is aggressive and socially dominant. Please don’t present male roleplayers as always trying to dominate, and especially as always dominating women as a default position, it is insulting for those who value fairness.

In a group with more women than men, how is it a male-dominated space? Got to be careful throwing around that term as if it is always the case.

Feminism’s arguments are not always applicable to games.

[bdub]

I re-read Jessica's post, and those are a lot of great ideas to retain a female gamer at your table. But how do you get them there in the first place?

I gave the romance analogy because the changes I see in RPGs feel very much like a cover replacement. The content is more aware, but the game play hasn't fundamentally changed that much.

For women that do play tabletop games without the encouragement of their significant other, what got them to the table?

[The 8th Dwarf]

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

thegreenteagamer wrote:

According to my wife, and I have to agree heartily with her, it would go a long way to getting women gamers to show up if gamers regularly showered before and wore deodorant to games.

It's a stereotypical thing to address, yes, but I have found it to be annoyingly true, and honestly, it's almost gotten me to leave, too.

Smelly stereotypical jerks bringing the rest of us down via association.

For the past few years, I dm and my players are mostly female. I don't want to be the smelly guy, so I have an ironclad rule of showering before a game, or shower before a shift if the game is straight after (if not straight after, eat, then shower, then go). It really helps to take this away as an issue.

The all male games I have joined didn't have a problem with one or more of them stinking up the house. I suspect they were doing the same thing as I prior to the game. Maybe Australian roleplayers have learned hygiene.

I have played with guys with poor hygiene - one had a mental illness and we had to work hard to get him to take his medication and look after himself. The other his parents were abusive and neglectful - we (mostly his flatmate)had to teach him how to wash his clothes, cook a good meal and other social niceties. So I do my best not to be judgemental.

When I was young D&D was a refuge for a lot of young men - for a few hours you could escape from social isolation, your own social inability, bullying, your lack of physical prowess.

I guess it is a similar experience for some of those people today, although WoW (and the alike) has also offered an even more threat free environment.

A lot of them carry issues of low self worth and low self esteem and that leads to the neglect of themselves thier health and hygiene.

As the RPG industry becomes more socially acceptable, I can see a movement to cordon off and move on those who don't fit the fashionably geeky profile. It's sad but that's the way the world is.

[Jessica Price]

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

That is a lot of don’ts, checks and double-checks.

With all that, how is one to properly focus on the game? To put the full immersive attention to playing it, or wow, running it (that takes a lot of work and focus, as you know).

If all male players should be always self-examining their behaviour, what a burden you wish to impose. I reject it—as there are games to be played with friends and family, and not constant reflexivity exercises.

In a group with excellent female representation, how is it a male-dominated space? Gaming isn’t always a male dominated space (personally many of the people I play with online, at table, and elsewhere are actually not male). Women can roleplay just as capably as men, with presence and able to follow their own interests—this is why I agree with Simply Gabriele so strongly.

When men and women playing together, are the males pursuing some sort of dominance? This isn’t a given nor should it be assumed men are pursuing dominance, or control, or tyranny. They can just be sitting there working out the numbers, waiting for their turn to roll and roleplay. Not every male is aggressive and socially dominant. Please don’t present male roleplayers as always trying to dominate, and especially as always dominating women as a default position, it is insulting for those who value fairness.

In a group with more women than men, how is it a male-dominated space? Got to be careful throwing around that term as if it is always the case.

Feminism’s arguments are not always applicable to games.

I suggest you reread, since you appear to have missed a key component.

I was talking about gaming with strangers. While there are always exceptions, the vast majority of situations in which people game with strangers -- game conventions, game store events -- are extremely male-dominated.

You don't want to make the effort to not make those situations unwelcoming to women, that's fine. I am always appreciative when people voluntarily self-identify as people I'm not interested in having at my table.

[DM Under The Bridge]

"But how do you get them there in the first place?"

a) Run a game that interests them, not as women, but that accords with their actual interests (e.g. if they like a specific setting or type of fantasy, run that, if they like nature, then add druids).

b) Run a game that has women active in the game world (but not as excessively pandering to them), should they wish to play female characters, but with no pressure for them to do so.

Let your female friends know all this, and they will come.

[Judy Bauer]

bdub wrote:

Let me clarify. I'm not counting wives, girlfriends, or daughters of existing gamers.

Speaking as the wife of one gamer and the daughter of another, you should count us, because if we're gaming, then we're gamers, too. (Excluding us feels dismissive.)

[Jiggy]

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

If all male players should be always self-examining their behaviour, what a burden you wish to impose.

Sorry to hear that, since the statement should really be "All adults should be always self-examining their behavior," as those who don't are still children.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff in Jessica's post. But much of it (such as not touching strangers without an invitation) is stuff that, if it's a burden to check yourself, you need professional help. If we assume that a given reader is more competent than that, there's only a couple of things left. And even if that still sounds burdensome, one could always just pick one to focus on for a while (for instance, I'm going to pay attention to my speaking/interruption habits), and work on it until new and better habits are formed and it no longer requires such effort, and then devote that effort to a second behavior.

Honestly, a post like Jessica's that offers concrete examples of what to watch out for is a golden opportunity. Anyone interested in being an adult needs to be examining their own behavior for potential correction, and being told something specific to look for makes it vastly less difficult to do so. I'd much rather be checking to see whether I'm doing X, than trying to watch ALL my behavior and try to figure out which things might need changing, without any feedback.

[Randarak]

My wife joined my RPG group back in 2000 because she got tired of being an "RPG widow". She hasn't looked back since. It probably helped that she knew everyone in the gaming group already, and so they all knew how to behave around her.

In my own experience (over three decades), female players are still few and far between. Every group I have been regularly associated with over the years has been male dominated (meaning one or no women at all), and not really by choice.

The women that were asked to participate who we thought might find it enjoyable, 99% of the time they didn't have an interest, whether that was because of the existing gaming stigma at the time, or just that their imaginations didn't steer in the particular direction of RPGs.

Never stopped trying though. Fresh minds and new blood help enrich the experience. I'm hoping once my daughter is old enough, my wife and I can make her one of us.

"...one of us...one of us...one of us..."

[mechaPoet]

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

That is a lot of don’ts, checks and double-checks.

With all that, how is one to properly focus on the game? To put the full immersive attention to playing it, or wow, running it (that takes a lot of work and focus, as you know).

Well, tabletop RPG's are a fundamentally social game, so I would imagine that making sure that everyone can participate without being unreasonably uncomfortable is inherently part of focusing on the game.

If you don't want to burden yourself with interacting decently with people, especially strangers, when playing a game, maybe try for something single player?

[bdub]

Let's try to keep this conversation civil.

[mechaPoet]

Jiggy wrote:

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

If all male players should be always self-examining their behaviour, what a burden you wish to impose.

Sorry to hear that, since the statement should really be "All adults should be always self-examining their behavior," as those who don't are still children.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff in Jessica's post. But much of it (such as not touching strangers without an invitation) is stuff that, if it's a burden to check yourself, you need professional help.

(emphasis mine)

First, I don't think there's any need to imply (or explicitly say) that our fellow forum-posters are children.

More importantly, let's please not equate entitlement to other people's spaces and bodies born of sexism/etc. with mental illness.

[Jiggy]

mechaPoet wrote:

More importantly, let's please not equate entitlement to other people's spaces and bodies born of sexism/etc. with mental illness.

I think you misunderstood that comment. I didn't say anyone who touches a stranger is mentally ill. I said that someone who, upon being asked to work on not touching strangers anymore, would find such an imperative to actually be burdensome, is someone who needs help. And I don't mean "needs help" as just some meaningless put-down, either. I mean that if someone is actively resistant to learning to not touch strangers, then something inside them has been broken (probably through no fault of their own, possibly via victimization from others), and someone needs to help them overcome that and get to a better place.

It's unfortunate that people take such issues so lightly that such a reference could be interpreted as a generic insult, but I guess it would be quite a derail to go down that road right now. :)

[thejeff]

bdub wrote:

I re-read Jessica's post, and those are a lot of great ideas to retain a female gamer at your table. But how do you get them there in the first place?

I gave the romance analogy because the changes I see in RPGs feel very much like a cover replacement. The content is more aware, but the game play hasn't fundamentally changed that much.

For women that do play tabletop games without the encouragement of their significant other, what got them to the table?

Of those that I know, it generally started with a love for fantasy and science fiction. Friends who play certainly help, particularly female friends.

If I recall, there was a big upswing in the White Wolf years. That genre and that style of game may have had more appeal than D&D variants do. Which suggests an approach: Look at what geeky girls* are reading/watching/playing online and look for games that emulate that. Anime might be a starting point, though that's a very broad field in itself.
Anecdotal evidence, but I've found female gamers tend to be more towards the character/story side of the divide than the hard mechanical crunch side. Rules lite or narrative based games might appeal more than something like PF. (Standard disclaimers apply. Women vary greatly and my experience is broad enough to be statistically valid. I also tend in that direction myself, so there may be a selection bias at work. It does tie in to the WoD upswing though.)

Also, don't knock those who started because of a significant other - I know quite a few who took it up for that reason, but got hooked and kept playing long after the boy was out of the picture.

*Girls specifically here. If you're looking to grow the hobby, go for the younger crowd. High school and college. That's where most get sucked in.

[Tormsskull]

Based on the way similar threads to this one tend to progress, anything not in agreement is treated as a derail. As such, I'll simply state that communication is key.

[Byakko]

It's a tricky subject, but rather than reiterating many of the (valid) points already made, let me point out another aspect of this:

As a whole, the tabletop wargaming/RPG community is aging.

When I attend local store events, the average gamer appears to be in their 30s or 40s. Granted, there are *always* exceptions, but this seems to be a notable trend. So perhaps it's not too surprising that the gender ratios haven't changed much in the last 10-30 years.

I suspect much of the younger crowd who may have previously been interested in RPGs now play online games instead (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Interestingly, when I judge at larger, broader themed conventions, like San Diego Comic-Con, there is both a significantly larger number of younger players as well as more females. I don't believe this is a coincidence. Most of these players have fun, but seem unlikely to pick up RPGs as a full time hobby.

EDIT: After a little thought, the people who attend events hosted at stores or cons may not be fairly representative, as many also play in private home games as well. Still, it does say something about the type of gamers who attend public events.

[Terquem]

Jessica Price wrote:

I'm leery of even bothering to participate in these threads anymore, but two things:

1) No, women aren't delicate snowflakes, we're not a monolith, we want different things, and so on. In general, gaming spaces could be made more welcoming to women if people just observed basic courtesy and care in playing with anyone they don't know well.

--Target groups' gore levels, explicit sexual content, etc. to the level of the least comfortable person in the group. (E.g. if someone appears uncomfortable with gory descriptions of injuries, either stop describing injuries in detail, or don't play with them; don't assume you can force them to "get over it.")

--Ask before explaining. Instead of assuming that a stranger you're playing with doesn't know how to do a combat maneuver and coming across as a condescending jerk when you start explaining how to do it, either don't say anything unless they ask for help, or ask if they'd like an explanation. Also saves you from looking like an idiot if it turns out they know more about it than you do. (See: Paizocon attendee at the hotel bar who started explaining Pathfinder to me before asking if I knew what it was, and only thought to ask where I worked after he finished describing tabletop RPGs.)

--On the flip-side, be patient with newbies. If someone doesn't understand something, don't be condescending, don't treat them like an idiot, don't act annoyed or impatient, don't act superior. You were a noob once, too. If you're asked to explain, explain respectfully.

--Don't try to make people prove their "cred," or get into fandom-measuring contests with them at the gaming table. If you want to prove you know more than someone else, or make them feel inferior, that's why we have trivia contests.

--Assume that people are there to play the game, and nothing else. If you want to ask someone out, try to convince people to attend your event, sell them Amway, or whatever, wait until the session ends to do it. And if they tell you they're not interested,...

I've read this three times now, and I cannot, now this is just me, I cannot find anything to disagree with. It is one of the best presented brief posts on how to play nice with strangers and how to think about some things you might not have thought of before.

Sure, all of those statistics up there could be way off, or entirely made up and I could go out and find that it was actually 9% of those women, not 8%, 9% Jessica! How dare you!, but seriously the point that is made is in my opinion, worth giving a little in the expectation of perfection.

Those are outstanding comments, Jessica, outstanding!

[Judy Bauer]

bdub wrote:

For women that do play tabletop games without the encouragement of their significant other, what got them to the table?

Back in jr high, when I found out that friends played, I asked to join their game. (My dad had a lot of D&D books, though, so even though I'd never played before I had basic knowledge of RPGs.) I got hooked, and when each group eventually dissolved, I kept seeking out more. Since then I've had wonderful experiences gaming with strangers who treated me like any other gamer, but I've also had enough bad experiences with people who talked over me/talked down to me/decided we were dating because I'd made small talk with them/tried to flirt with my through sexual violence against my character/etc. that I strongly prefer to play with people I know.

When recruiting players, I've generally invited friends who I know enjoy board games to try one-offs like We Be Goblins!; a couple who I thought were long shots have loved it, and some who were initially excited tried and decided they weren't—often because they're used to computer games, and find the slower speed of play frustrating.

It may also help to bring in more than one new player start at a time—being the one newcomer in a group that's been playing together for years can be pretty awkward, even as an experienced gamer.

[Axolotl]

Randarak wrote:

My wife joined my RPG group back in 2000 because she got tired of being an "RPG widow". She hasn't looked back since. It probably helped that she knew everyone in the gaming group already, and so they all knew how to behave around her.

In my own experience (over three decades), female players are still few and far between. Every group I have been regularly associated with over the years has been male dominated (meaning one or no women at all), and not really by choice.

The women that were asked to participate who we thought might find it enjoyable, 99% of the time they didn't have an interest, whether that was because of the existing gaming stigma at the time, or just that their imaginations didn't steer in the particular direction of RPGs.

Never stopped trying though. Fresh minds and new blood help enrich the experience. I'm hoping once my daughter is old enough, my wife and I can make her one of us.

"...one of us...one of us...one of us..."

There's something interesting in this experience you note: that most women who were invited to play lost interest as they weren't as interested in RPG's, period. That makes me wonder if RPG's are not necessarily the entry point of interest that matters, but an early interest in science fiction, fantasy, and gaming in general. I don't know any statistics offhand, but I would imagine that fewer women take an interest in these areas at an early age, probably due to societal/familiar pressure away from them and towards other things.

Of course, I'm busy telling my preschool daughter stories about dragons and mythology, and she has a (carefully monitored, plastic) sword. Fate: Accelerated may appear on the family table in the future!

[Jessica Price]

Jiggy wrote:

Jessica Price wrote:

(See: Paizocon attendee at the hotel bar who started explaining Pathfinder to me before asking if I knew what it was, and only thought to ask where I worked after he finished describing tabletop RPGs.)

You have no idea how bad I want to see a video of this. For that matter, it would be amazing if you Paizo ladies (and gents, for comparison) brought hidden cameras to situations like these. The company can spring for that, right? ;)

Alas, Washington is an all-party notification state when it comes to recording. :-)

[Liz Courts]

Removed some posts and their replies. Jumping to conclusions does not help this discussion at all, nor does being dismissive of somebody's experience because you've never heard of it yourself. Be civil to each other. If you find that you cannot post calmly, do not post. Take a step away from the keyboard, go outside, have a cookie and tea, something. This is a topic that needs to be discussed with open minds.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Terquem wrote:

wow, Jessica -

I am so, so, sorry you didn't go with your first instinct.

I'm not. I'm relieved and buoyed that she (along with many other women) are able to share their stories/experiences and offer definitive attainable suggestions for improving gaming for everyone. It's disappointing that those insights will invariably fall on a few deaf ears, but it's affirming to me that so many take do take womens' comments to heart.

[Sara Marie]

Consider checking in with local schools, Boys & Girls Clubs and after school programs if they would be interested in donations of gaming materials (books, boxed sets, dice, etc). There are far more underfunded teachers and program directors looking for ways to stretch their budget than we have capacity to help. RPGs encourage math, reading, creative writing and storytelling skills and donating materials helps introduce more young women and girls to the hobby before some of the cultural biases that typically prevent or hinder entry get their hooks in.

[Anastasius Brightstar]

I help DM at a gaming group at my alma mater. It started in 2007 as a board game and D&D group (we played 3.5 at the time), but the biggest thing that made me want to keep coming back was that we were all treated like equals. There weren't any fart jokes or sexist comments. It was great because faculty and staff were in on the fun and helped teach the games.

It also probably helped a bit though that this all took place at a private Christian University, so we aren't as likely to have as many issues with "inappropriate topics." Because of that, we have a really solid group of girls that come to play as well. It's not a 50/50 split, but girls probably make up about a third of the group.

We've switched over to running Pathfinder now, and have been for a couple years, and in the entire time we've only really had and issue was in the current AP we're running (Shattered Star). It's been a lot of fun, and the group has grown so much that we consistently have 4-5 maxed out tables. But halfway through last semester, when we found out that our next mission was to find and claim the Shard of Lust, and a player at my table decided to start making jokes that, while not sexist, were definitely past what we were okay with having in the gaming group overall.

I let our faculty organizers know, they talked to him about it first, and then made an announcement to the group that play like that was inappropriate, and wouldn't be tolerated. It hasn't ever been an issue since, and everybody's still having a grand time. And I think that's been one of the parts that's helped us retain our players (both male and female).

While the level of conservative-ness we play with at my group is probably too much for a lot of other groups, you can still make the idea work. Make the rules for what is and isn't okay to do at the table known. Make sure everybody knows that if they're not comfortable with something, to speak up. If something happens, it stops right then and right there until the game is over, and then once that's done you can determine where the line needs to be.

Also, what Sara Marie said. Find some public areas that aren't typical for convention-problems to show up, like adults that should know how to shower and use deodorant.

[Avatar-1]

bdub wrote:

What do you think can be done to make roleplaying games more appealing to women (teenage and older)?

What do you think can be done to make RPGs more appealing to men?

I'm pretty sure that's your answer.

[Shifty]

Jessica Price wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Jessica Price wrote:

(See: Paizocon attendee at the hotel bar who started explaining Pathfinder to me before asking if I knew what it was, and only thought to ask where I worked after he finished describing tabletop RPGs.)

You have no idea how bad I want to see a video of this. For that matter, it would be amazing if you Paizo ladies (and gents, for comparison) brought hidden cameras to situations like these. The company can spring for that, right? ;)

Alas, Washington is an all-party notification state when it comes to recording. :-)

For our imaginations though, could you confirm or deny that he looked and sounded like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons?

I can't imagine a guy using RPG anecdotes and mastery to try mack onto a potential dalliance.

[Sean K Reynolds]

From the "making your gaming group more safe and comfortable for women gamers" department, here is a relevant blog I wrote a while back.

[Mikaze]

Seconding too many things to count. After such a horrible year of sexism in gaming, I pray it sticks.

Only things I can offer that wouldn't repeat much of what's upthread would be:

1. Talk to women who want to game.

2. Actually listen to what they have to say. And don't just latch onto the one response that backs up preconceived notions and use it to dismiss everything else.

3. This is for new gamers in general, but cut out the geek hazing rituals already.

[Mikaze]

Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

Not exclusively for the sake of women, I feel like a lot of RP gamer guys could work on their attitudes a bit.

Some of the *$#@ they say rankles me, and I know it's the type that many women also find off-putting.

Yeah, again this past year has really pushed wretched behavior that just gets taken for granted into the spotlight.

I was reading up on some game fandom stuff on Tumblr and it was fantastic and welcoming in tone. Then I looked up the same exact subject on a dedicated gaming forum and it was cringe-inducing at best.

Stopping excusing some gamers' tendency to go from 0 to Raving Misogynist/Racist/Homophobe like flipping a switch as just being "part of the culture" would be a pleasant change of pace.

[Aranna]

I think Jessica makes some excellent points, and I can really only add one thing. When I find something objectionable I point out that fact. I don't let the inevitable group of men who will become irate and defend at all costs their right to do any darn thing they please deter me. Why? Because if people don't talk about this stuff then it will only get worse not better.

[ElterAgo]

bdub wrote:

Let me clarify. I'm not counting wives, girlfriends, or daughters of existing gamers.

I would say that is a mistake.

The vast majority of the gamers I know, whether man or woman, play any given RPG because they were introduced to it by a friend, relative, or spouse. If they have fun, they stay. If they don't, they leave.

I can only think of a very small number of people that just looked at it on the shelf or somehow found it online and decided to give it a try.

[Terquem]

ElterAgo - while I agree with most of what you point out above, I think it is important to also point out that if you are 50+ (like I am) and grew up playing D&D in the 70's and 80's it's easy to delude yourself into thinking that how it was then is how it is now,

but it really isn't anymore. Most people get into the hobby, these days, because they were at a MTG tourney, or Pokémon tourney, Local game store's "board game Saturday" event, or other social gathering (comic convention, midnight book release, game convention, or other event).

Yes people still introduce their friends and families to the game, but the bigger picture is, actually, the bigger picture.

[ElterAgo]

(Not quite into the 50+ club, but it is closing fast. sigh)

I am also talking about current players.

I talk a fair amount to the folks while getting ready for PFS and I have a couple of relatively new gamers in my home group.

Almost no one was an independent walk-in. Almost all of them decided to give it a try because they knew one of the other gamers. Yeah, Chris was a war hammer guy who would sometimes see us playing PF. But he didn't give it a try until he saw that one of the players was Jim who he knows from the war hammer tourney and talked to him about it.

I wasn't there the whole time. But while I was at one of the local con's (4 PFS time slots). There were 2 people (a couple) that decided to give it a try that were not brought over by a friend. There were several tables of new players but all of them came with someone else or someone suggested they give it a try.

Yes, my experience is limited to just what I have experienced. But even talking to others, I've seen/heard very few instances mentioned with someone just spontaneously deciding to give PF a try.

[Treppa]

Terquem wrote:

I think it is important to also point out that if you are 50+ (like I am) and grew up playing D&D in the 70's and 80's it's easy to delude yourself into thinking that how it was then is how it is now,but it really isn't anymore. Most people get into the hobby, these days, because they were at a MTG tourney, or Pokémon tourney, Local game store's "board game Saturday" event, or other social gathering (comic convention, midnight book release, game convention, or other event).

That's a good point, and rather a shame. My friends and I got into D&D in 1977 because we overheard a game at University and asked the GM if we could join. It sounded like a blast and we were all into SF and fantasy. We had a mixed M/F group and loads of fun. I'm still close with many of that gaming group today. But I can say with confidence that none of us would have gone to a game shop, so we'd have never had a chance to overhear the fun or join this addictive hobby.

It's encouraging that schools have gaming clubs and that some teachers are introducing gaming to improve math, social, and organizational skills, but I guess it is somewhat more isolated than it was when I started playing.

[thejeff]

Treppa wrote:

Terquem wrote:

I think it is important to also point out that if you are 50+ (like I am) and grew up playing D&D in the 70's and 80's it's easy to delude yourself into thinking that how it was then is how it is now,but it really isn't anymore. Most people get into the hobby, these days, because they were at a MTG tourney, or Pokémon tourney, Local game store's "board game Saturday" event, or other social gathering (comic convention, midnight book release, game convention, or other event).

That's a good point, and rather a shame. My friends and I got into D&D in 1977 because we overheard a game at University and asked the GM if we could join. It sounded like a blast and we were all into SF and fantasy. We had a mixed M/F group and loads of fun. I'm still close with many of that gaming group today. But I can say with confidence that none of us would have gone to a game shop, so we'd have never had a chance to overhear the fun or join this addictive hobby.

It's encouraging that schools have gaming clubs and that some teachers are introducing gaming to improve math, social, and organizational skills, but I guess it is somewhat more isolated than it was when I started playing.

I doubt it's that different. You may have been the exception back then as well. :)

I'm sure similar things still happen, just not very often.

I'd say more that gaming stores and other similar venues open up more possibilities.
I've never really been part of the gaming store/convention circuit, so most of my groups have accumulated from friends of players who'd expressed an interest. A lot of our linkage in college was through the science fiction club, so that would be a possible way in as well.
Also, opportunities for that kind of casual overhearing and joining fade fast after you're out of school - games are more likely to take place at homes or at venues like stores/conventions.

[Stompy Rex]

I'd like to add in here an example of a methodology that has worked in other areas. Mudd college offers us an example of a successful approach: "At Harvey Mudd College, a private liberal arts college near Los Angeles, initiatives are underway to make the computer-science department more welcoming. As a result, 40% of its computer-science students are women. Harvey Mudd is still working to ensure women feel as welcome and as capable as their male computer science peers." (Quote from readwrite.com)

Their success is due in large part to:
- Altering the "imposter syndrome." Intentional or not, if you walk into an area where it's only 14% or fewer people like you, you feel isolated. Keep in mind that this would be in your education as well as any workplace you applied to within this field.
- Increasing outreach. That is, speaking to girls in high school and communicating with them about the cs field. That is, "this is a possibility for you, it isn't just a male area--even if you'd be 1 out of 10, etc. It's growing."

The approaches were mainly social and highly successful. I would not call this "pandering" so much as opening the door and inviting someone over to dinner. ...and then treating them like a person.

In a bizarre way, in order to get a group involved--socially speaking, you tend to already need members of that group there. Austin, TX is reportedly losing numbers of its African American population because of a general feeling of isolation. That is, there may be only 8% or so within a population--hence, isolation or "imposter syndrome."

[thejeff]

Stompy Rex wrote:

I'd like to add in here an example of a methodology that has worked in other areas. Mudd college offers us an example of a successful approach: "At Harvey Mudd College, a private liberal arts college near Los Angeles, initiatives are underway to make the computer-science department more welcoming. As a result, 40% of its computer-science students are women. Harvey Mudd is still working to ensure women feel as welcome and as capable as their male computer science peers." (Quote from readwrite.com)

Their success is due in large part to:
- Altering the "imposter syndrome." Intentional or not, if you walk into an area where it's only 14% or fewer people like you, you feel isolated. Keep in mind that this would be in your education as well as any workplace you applied to within this field.
- Increasing outreach. That is, speaking to girls in high school and communicating with them about the cs field. That is, "this is a possibility for you, it isn't just a male area--even if you'd be 1 out of 10, etc. It's growing."

The approaches were mainly social and highly successful. I would not call this "pandering" so much as opening the door and inviting someone over to dinner. ...and then treating them like a person.

In a bizarre way, in order to get a group involved--socially speaking, you tend to already need members of that group there. Austin, TX is reportedly losing numbers of its African American population because of a general feeling of isolation. That is, there may be only 8% or so within a population--hence, isolation or "imposter syndrome."

One interesting take on the still increasing numbers of women entering high tech fields is that at pretty much every step along the way, there have been strong detractors claiming that whatever the current state was, was just the natural way of things - most women didn't have the talent for the fields or they didn't have the interest. As the numbers grew, the response stayed the same - now we've reached the real limit.

It's possible it's the same with rpgs, despite the naysayers claiming "Women just aren't as interested."