Increasing Female Participation

[mechaPoet]

thejeff wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

William Ronald wrote:

Gabriele, I do no believe in special rules. However, I think that GMs and players can be respectful of others and welcoming. This has worked well in my local PFS group, I believe. We have several women gamers in our group.

Speaking as a man, I'd prefer it if you refrained from being disrespectful and unwelcoming to me as well. I'm not sure that should require the lack of a penis.

No. I agree with you.

But, the way in which some gamers are disrespectful and unwelcoming to the non-penis having people is different from the way they behave towards the penis having people.

IOW, you're right that we should behave roughly the same towards both genders (and any other variations), but the problem is that too often women are treated differently and badly. Just doing nothing doesn't achieve the goal.

Here's an easy step toward making trans folks have a better time: please don't assume anything about people's genitals, or talk about them as if they indicate a person's gender. [/the more you know]

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Fergurg wrote:

Another though I thunk while thinking was that the gaming community has traditionally been the outcast boys who didn't have the social skills to talk to girls. The boys whose very presence makes the girls ill. Yes, more people in the community is good, and opening up the community is also good, but that isn't what is happening; it's not just a "We want to play with you," but a "We want to play with what you have, and you need to leave."

That's going to cause bitterness, hostility, and opposition from the people who feel, with some justification, that their last refuge is being taken from them - by the very gender that they were seeking refuge from.

There's a huge difference between lacking social skills and being actively toxic towards members of the opposite sex. Conflating the two does not bolster your argument. People who are actively toxic should, well, stop, and if they can't stop, or don't want to stop, then yes they need to leave. Not because they lack social skills, but because they are harming others.

No social group gets a monopoly on a particular hobby. Misogynist nerds don't get to claim dominion over TTRPGs and insist that women who want to play them don't get to ask to be treated like people because reasons.

It's not "We want to play with what you have, and you need to leave" it's "We want to play with what you have, and you need to treat us like human beings". If a given socially toxic nerd cannot bring himself to treat women with respect (and tipping his trilby and saying "mi'lady" before he spouts sexist opinions or mansplains the rules doesn't count as respect) then he doesn't deserve social interaction, frankly. However, it's actually a matter of "won't" not "can't", as we all know -- it is not actually physically impossible for a misogynist to treat women better, he just doesn't want to.

[Stompy Rex]

One private college closed the gap, going from 10% female participation within computer science to 40%

Evil Lincoln has it right.

It isn't about hypersensitivity.

It's about welcoming others, reaching out to them, and then not being creepy.

It's about "the isolation factor."

It's damned HARD, because it's social and social means fewer hard and fast rules (though SKR's blog post does an excellent job).

We're hearing more about things like this because gradually, women are in a stronger position to speak out--and therefore do. Older generations have a harder time adjusting.

We can learn from examples like Mudd, who have been successful.

[thejeff]

mechaPoet wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

William Ronald wrote:

Gabriele, I do no believe in special rules. However, I think that GMs and players can be respectful of others and welcoming. This has worked well in my local PFS group, I believe. We have several women gamers in our group.

Speaking as a man, I'd prefer it if you refrained from being disrespectful and unwelcoming to me as well. I'm not sure that should require the lack of a penis.

No. I agree with you.

But, the way in which some gamers are disrespectful and unwelcoming to the non-penis having people is different from the way they behave towards the penis having people.

IOW, you're right that we should behave roughly the same towards both genders (and any other variations), but the problem is that too often women are treated differently and badly. Just doing nothing doesn't achieve the goal.

Here's an easy step toward making trans folks have a better time: please don't assume anything about people's genitals, or talk about them as if they indicate a person's gender. [/the more you know]

I was only using that in response to the "require the lack of a penis" in previous post.

And I don't believe I assumed anything about anyone's gender, though I can see how it could be read that way.

[MMCJawa]

thejeff wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

Another though I thunk while thinking was that the gaming community has traditionally been the outcast boys who didn't have the social skills to talk to girls. The boys whose very presence makes the girls ill. Yes, more people in the community is good, and opening up the community is also good, but that isn't what is happening; it's not just a "We want to play with you," but a "We want to play with what you have, and you need to leave."

That's going to cause bitterness, hostility, and opposition from the people who feel, with some justification, that their last refuge is being taken from them - by the very gender that they were seeking refuge from.

Yeah. Grow up and get over it.

There's a difference between not having the social skills to talk to girls and being offensively creepy - pawing at them, crudely hitting on anyone who stays close enough long enough, raping their characters etc.
Those people can go.

The rest can stay. I was pretty low on the social skills scale, back in the day, and I was damn happy to find girls with the same interests that I could interact with.

I can't agree with this more. I suffer from social anxiety disorder and suffer extreme shyness and awkwardness around the opposite sex. I don't see how making gaming environments more friendly towards women is some sort of burden for men, nor do I see "increase women participation" and "increase the number of gamers in general" are mutually exclusive ideas

[Fergurg]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

Another though I thunk while thinking was that the gaming community has traditionally been the outcast boys who didn't have the social skills to talk to girls. The boys whose very presence makes the girls ill. Yes, more people in the community is good, and opening up the community is also good, but that isn't what is happening; it's not just a "We want to play with you," but a "We want to play with what you have, and you need to leave."

That's going to cause bitterness, hostility, and opposition from the people who feel, with some justification, that their last refuge is being taken from them - by the very gender that they were seeking refuge from.

There's a huge difference between lacking social skills and being actively toxic towards members of the opposite sex.

Conflating the two does not bolster your argument. People who are actively toxic should, well, stop, and if they can't stop, or don't want to stop, then yes they need to leave. Not because they lack social skills, but because they are harming others.

No social group gets a monopoly on a particular hobby. Misogynist nerds don't get to claim dominion over TTRPGs and insist that women who want to play them don't get to ask to be treated like people because reasons.

It's not "We want to play with what you have, and you need to leave" it's "We want to play with what you have, and you need to treat us like human beings". If a given socially toxic nerd cannot bring himself to treat women with respect (and tipping his trilby and saying "mi'lady" before he spouts sexist opinions or <garbage word that is worse than the N-Bomb> the rules doesn't count as respect) then he doesn't deserve social interaction, frankly. However, it's actually a matter of "won't" not "can't", as we all know -- it is not actually physically impossible for a misogynist to treat women better, he just doesn't want to.

You're missing my point; I don't understand how, as you quoted my entire post. My point is to consider who it is you are demanding change from and why, so at least you can consider some of the hostility to it.

The gaming community has, traditionally, been the outcast kids. The ones whose very presence was seen as an offense. These were the kids that the popular kids beat up because it was fun, and the teachers said, "Well, I'm sure you did something to deserve it." The boys (and it almost universally has been boys) who were so socially awkward in dealing with girls (who would then call some boys to beat them up for the audacity to talk to someone clearly out of their league) that they learned to just give up. The weekend wasn't a time to go to a party, but a reprieve from the hell that was high school.

Some turned to drugs, more turned to a noose and a chair to kick out from under them. For a while in the 90's, they turned to guns so they wouldn't die alone. But some, some found each other and a gaming group was born. They weren't invited to the parties, but it didn't matter. They didn't go to their prom because they couldn't get a date, but they at least didn't spend the evening home alone wishing they could.

For good and bad, it was a community. And now, many of the same people who drove the outcasts away from the "proper places" have decided that they want in on the gaming. Yes, some can accommodate the community, maybe even be a part of it. But many want to displace the community; they are seeking to redefine it in ways that cater to their sensibilities so that they can have the games, but without "those people".

The very fact that you feel that those who "spout sexist opinions" are part of the category of those do not deserve social interaction shows that the invaders are having an impact, and not necessarily a positive one.

I am not saying that misogyny is good; it isn't. But, whether fair or not, strictly demanding that a community that has been traditionally treated badly by the female of the species must drastically alter itself in order to accommodate them into the community that was built because of the female rejection in the first place is going to be seen as a hostile invasion - and responded to as such.

Are there things that can be done? Yes. Unwanted physical contact clearly crosses the line, for example. Hygiene should be a basic. At the same time, the first time you walk into a house, you don't get to change the thermostat.

[bdub]

I really like this quote from Blast From The Past:

TROY
Exactly! I thought a gentleman was
somebody who owned horses. Turns out,
the short and very simple definition
of a gentleman or a lady is: someone
who always attempts to make the people
around him or her feel as comfortable
as possible. That's it! If you don't
do that, nothing else matters. The
cars, the clothes, the houses...

http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/blast_from_the_past.html

[Coriat]

Fergurg wrote:

Is it about increasing the number of people playing, or increasing the percentage of women that make up the gaming population? Because those are very different goals with very different means of reaching them.

If the goal is to increase the number of people playing, that's doable by simple marketing techniques combined with bringing the customer in on the plan. The very basics of courtesy are needed - and nothing more.

However, if the goal is to change the demographics (as I suspect it is for many), then different methods are employed simply because it is easier to get rid of 5 men than to bring in 5 women. And if you can create changes that bring in 3 women and get rid of 7 men, the goal gets a lot easier to reach. All you have to do is create an environment where the old base is made unwelcome while reaching out to the new target.

I've just been skimming this thread because I don't have much to say on the topic. But, as far as I can tell, most of the suggestions have been more in the nature of "quit changing the demographics" than "change the demographics."

More in the order of - if you might have 6 men and 4 women prospects - quit driving half of the women off, leaving you with 6 men and 2 women.

I certainly can't say I got the same impression as you, that the chief goal (of Paizo? Of posters? Either way...) is to drive men out of gaming.

[Fergurg]

Coriat wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

Is it about increasing the number of people playing, or increasing the percentage of women that make up the gaming population? Because those are very different goals with very different means of reaching them.

If the goal is to increase the number of people playing, that's doable by simple marketing techniques combined with bringing the customer in on the plan. The very basics of courtesy are needed - and nothing more.

However, if the goal is to change the demographics (as I suspect it is for many), then different methods are employed simply because it is easier to get rid of 5 men than to bring in 5 women. And if you can create changes that bring in 3 women and get rid of 7 men, the goal gets a lot easier to reach. All you have to do is create an environment where the old base is made unwelcome while reaching out to the new target.

I've just been skimming this thread because I don't have much to say on the topic. But, as far as I can tell, most of the suggestions have been more in the nature of "quit changing the demographics" than "change the demographics."

More in the order of - if you might have 6 men and 4 women prospects - quit driving half of the women off, leaving you with 6 men and 2 women.

I certainly can't say I got the same impression as you, that the chief goal is to drive men out of gaming.

I don't think it's the chief goal; however, if the chief goal is to change the demographic, the most logical way to do that is to implement things that will bring in some women and get rid of more men. To use your numbers, if the 6 men and 4 women changed to 3 men and 5 women, I think a lot of people in the demographic department would see that as a positive.

If the goal is to bring in more people, then the ratio should not really be part of the conversation.

[Lissa Guillet]

Fergurg wrote:

The gaming community has, traditionally, been the outcast kids. The ones whose very presence was seen as an offense. These were the kids that the popular kids beat up because it was fun, and the teachers said, "Well, I'm sure you did something to deserve it." The boys (and it almost universally has been boys) who were so socially awkward in dealing with girls (who would then call some boys to beat them up for the audacity to talk to someone clearly out of their league) that they learned to just give up. The weekend wasn't a time to go to a party, but a reprieve from the hell that was high school.

Has it ever occurred to you that this happened to just as many young girls as young boys. High school is cruel to both sexes. Maybe not equally on all fronts but it is most decidedly the worst society has to offer. And maybe those young girls who went to prom alone, or who threw themselves into their studies because at least there, the people judging them weren't arbitrary, or who got pizza smeared on their clothes from some dumb blonde who felt that her only way up was to push someone else down or worse; maybe those are the women trying to join your table. And you answer those girls with the same discrimination that was heaped on you as a child: You don't belong here or what I say goes. Not cool.

[Fergurg]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

The gaming community has, traditionally, been the outcast kids. The ones whose very presence was seen as an offense. These were the kids that the popular kids beat up because it was fun, and the teachers said, "Well, I'm sure you did something to deserve it." The boys (and it almost universally has been boys) who were so socially awkward in dealing with girls (who would then call some boys to beat them up for the audacity to talk to someone clearly out of their league) that they learned to just give up. The weekend wasn't a time to go to a party, but a reprieve from the hell that was high school.

Has it ever occurred to you that this happened to just as many young girls as young boys.

Honestly, no. At least, not to the extent that it does to boys. No matter how awkward and socially inept a girl is, especially as a teen, there's a boy out there who would do anything for her. The inverse isn't true. Just one of the many differences between boys and girls.

Lissa Guillet wrote:

High school is cruel to both sexes. Maybe not equally on all fronts but it is most decidedly the worst society has to offer. And maybe those young girls who went to prom alone, or who threw themselves into their studies because at least there, the people judging them weren't arbitrary, or who got pizza smeared on their clothes from some dumb blonde who felt that her only way up was to push someone else down; maybe those are the women trying to join your table. And you answer those girls with the same discrimination that was heaped on you as a child: You don't belong here or what I say goes. Not cool.

I'm not talking about those who seek to be part of the world. I am talking about the higher number, or at least the louder number, who are demanding that the gaming world change to fit their needs and wants - one of those wants being that "those people" not be a part of the community.

[Lissa Guillet]

Fergurg wrote:

Honestly, no. At least, not to the extent that it does to boys. No matter how awkward and socially inept a girl is, especially as a teen, there's a boy out there who would do anything for her. The inverse isn't true. Just one of the many differences between boys and girls.

A) Not true.

B) you have no idea what that boy if one exists innocently inflicts on her because society says it's ok.

[Coriat]

Fergurg wrote:

If the goal is to bring in more people, then the ratio should not really be part of the conversation.

Well, I don't know if it shouldn't, since the conversation has seemed to focus on things that - it is proposed - artificially alter the demographic by driving out women.

In such a context ratios of men to women seems relevant.

Quote:

I don't think it's the chief goal; however, if the chief goal is to change the demographic, the most logical way to do that is to implement things that will bring in some women and get rid of more men.

It seems to me that this is only the most logical way to alter the demographic if you see an absence of women as the natural demographic of gaming. If indeed there can only ever be one or two women interested in gaming for every five or six men, then you would have to exclude men to alter the ratio to increase women.

If, on the other hand, you see a situation with few women and conclude that there are other factors keeping women out rather than disinterest, then the most logical way to proceed would certainly seem to be to try to remove those factors rather than kick a bunch of guys out - no?

[thegreenteagamer]

This might've already been stated, (there's becouple hundred posts I tuned out on when #notallmen reared its ugly head), but...

If the problem with gaming for women was just men, there'd be a lot more all female groups.

I have yet to see or even hear of one.

[Fergurg]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

Honestly, no. At least, not to the extent that it does to boys. No matter how awkward and socially inept a girl is, especially as a teen, there's a boy out there who would do anything for her. The inverse isn't true. Just one of the many differences between boys and girls.

A) Not true.

B) you have no idea what that boy if one exists innocently inflicts on her because society says it's ok.

Point A: we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Point B: What does that even mean?!?

[Crystal Frasier]

Fergurg wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

The gaming community has, traditionally, been the outcast kids. The ones whose very presence was seen as an offense. These were the kids that the popular kids beat up because it was fun, and the teachers said, "Well, I'm sure you did something to deserve it." The boys (and it almost universally has been boys) who were so socially awkward in dealing with girls (who would then call some boys to beat them up for the audacity to talk to someone clearly out of their league) that they learned to just give up. The weekend wasn't a time to go to a party, but a reprieve from the hell that was high school.

Has it ever occurred to you that this happened to just as many young girls as young boys.

Honestly, no. At least, not to the extent that it does to boys. No matter how awkward and socially inept a girl is, especially as a teen, there's a boy out there who would do anything for her. The inverse isn't true. Just one of the many differences between boys and girls.

This actually happens to girls a lot. And no, there aren't boys secretly pining for every girl, who will treat them like a princess. Sometimes if you're too b%@!# or too geeky or too fat then pretty much everyone around you treats you like crap and you don't get an inch of slack or sympathy--from the mainstream crowd or from gamers.

No one is asking gamer culture to stop existing, just to stop being antagonistic to half the species.

[Lissa Guillet]

thegreenteagamer wrote:

This might've already been stated, (there's becouple hundred posts I tuned out on when #notallmen reared its ugly head), but...

If the problem with gaming for women was just men, there'd be a lot more all female groups.

I have yet to see or even hear of one.

I've been in at least one and I've been in a couple where one member was gay or bi and the rest were women. A friend of mine who owned a game store with her then husband ran a game every summer for 12 tween girls for 3 years. One of my ex's tried to play dnd as a young girl but was told by the guys there that she wasn't welcome and that it was only for boys. She hated it ever since and looked down on me somewhat for playing.

[Fergurg]

Coriat wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

If the goal is to bring in more people, then the ratio should not really be part of the conversation.

Well, I don't know if it shouldn't, since the conversation has seemed to focus on things that - it is proposed - artificially alter the demographic by driving out women.

In such a context ratios of men to women seems relevant.

Quote:

I don't think it's the chief goal; however, if the chief goal is to change the demographic, the most logical way to do that is to implement things that will bring in some women and get rid of more men.

It seems to me that this is only the most logical way to alter the demographic if you see an absence of women as the natural demographic of gaming. If indeed there can only ever be one or two women interested in gaming for every five or six men, then you would have to exclude men to alter the ratio to increase women.

If, on the other hand, you see a situation with few women and conclude that there are other factors keeping women out rather than disinterest, then the most logical way to proceed would certainly seem to be to try to remove those factors rather than kick a bunch of guys out - no?

I gave my main theory on how it happened (the whole outcast boys) and the solution offered was that they don't deserve social interaction and that they do have to leave because they are toxic. So, it seems that, yes, kicking out a bunch of guys is part of the plan of shifting the demographic.

[Coriat]

thegreenteagamer wrote:

This might've already been stated, (there's becouple hundred posts I tuned out on when #notallmen reared its ugly head), but...

If the problem with gaming for women was just men, there'd be a lot more all female groups.

I have yet to see or even hear of one.

Actually if there is a large group of people, and a small portion of them are women, you would, statistically speaking, expect random groups drawn from that sample to be much more rarely all-women than the overall distribution.

Same reason that a 10 on d10 is 10% of rolls, but when you roll 5 d10s, you will much more rarely get all 5 10s. If 10% of gamers are women, then when you make a group of 5 gamers, the same thing happens.

That's just math. Admittedly handwaving social factors that might (or might not) encourage all-women groups - but, the basic math means you're already starting from a point of great unlikeliness if you have a minority of women gamers.

Now, second - and this tongue in cheek - you're a guy. Which means that if I actually wanted to investigate all-women groups, you might be a bit less qualified to estimate their frequency? You haven't been in any of them literally by definition :p

But yeah, the main point is that, if 10% of gamers are women, then a random distribution would produce an expected one in ten thousand 5 person groups as all-female. Now, social factors may work to increase that one thousandth of one percent, but when you're starting with a number that small, it's really hard for even strong influences to increase it noticeably.

[Fergurg]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Fergurg wrote:

The gaming community has, traditionally, been the outcast kids. The ones whose very presence was seen as an offense. These were the kids that the popular kids beat up because it was fun, and the teachers said, "Well, I'm sure you did something to deserve it." The boys (and it almost universally has been boys) who were so socially awkward in dealing with girls (who would then call some boys to beat them up for the audacity to talk to someone clearly out of their league) that they learned to just give up. The weekend wasn't a time to go to a party, but a reprieve from the hell that was high school.

Has it ever occurred to you that this happened to just as many young girls as young boys.

Honestly, no. At least, not to the extent that it does to boys. No matter how awkward and socially inept a girl is, especially as a teen, there's a boy out there who would do anything for her. The inverse isn't true. Just one of the many differences between boys and girls.

This actually happens to girls a lot. And no, there aren't boys secretly pining for every girl, who will treat them like a princess. Sometimes if you're too b%#!# or too geeky or too fat then pretty much everyone around you treats you like crap and you don't get an inch of slack or sympathy--from the mainstream crowd or from gamers.

No one is asking gamer culture to stop existing, just to stop being antagonistic to half the species.

Nobody is asking gamer culture to do anything. There are many who are demanding that gamer culture make many changes in order to accommodate the half of the species that they feel (somewhat accurately) has rejected them. Even now, many of the people making the demands are demanding that the socially awkward leave the gaming community due to discomfort. If it is my house, you don't have the right to change the thermostat the first time you come in, and you certainly don't have the right to demand that I leave my house because you don't like being around me.

[houstonderek]

Distilling all of this down: basically, just act civilized, and people will judge the hobby on its merits. People that want to play will, people that find it boring won't. Simple.

[Coriat]

Well, I don't know how I will sleep at night, but I'll try to carry on. ;)

[bdub]

Fergurg wrote:

I gave my main theory on how it happened (the whole outcast boys) and the solution offered was that they don't deserve social interaction and that they do have to leave because they are toxic. So, it seems that, yes, kicking out a bunch of guys is part of the plan of shifting the demographic.

I don't understand the outcast boy theory, and I don't understand what's difficult about making people feel comfortable at the gaming table.

Why would anyone go out of their way to make people at the gaming table feel uncomfortable? And why would people think this is socially acceptable, especially at public games that happen in game stores and at conventions?

[JonGarrett]

If people are so socially inept they can't act like people around women...then sorry, but I'd rather play with the girls.

Girls get as much social crap as boys in school. I saw one girl bullied and beaten until she became anorexic. It was awful.

So if you go to someone's house to rolepaly and they act awfully, saying sexist crap and telling you your character gets a strength penalty 'cos you're a girl, you can't tell them to leave there home...but you can say, 'Screw this, I'm going to find a better group, any of you guys coming?' and walking out.

[Liz Courts]

Locking thread. This keeps going around and around in circles. Treat people like people. If you don't know that person, check your behavior. Respect others experience, and recognize the fact that their experience may be completely different than yours. Immediately disbelieving or disregarding them does not help things at all, nor does jumping to conclusions about intentions. We all want a better and bigger gaming community. Stop and think about your behavior, and maybe question if it's something you are doing that is stopping that from happening.