Goblin Squad Member
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There had been so much doom and gloom predicted here - so I felt I give a first day impression.
Responsivness: I send a ticket with an issue in the morning and got a reply later that day - done by Ryan. I don't think you can ask for anything more in regard to customer service.
Download: Pretty quick - 15-20 minutes via Broadband in the UK.
Install was painless and worked fine on both computers
Members of the family got scattered at different settlements - Kindleburn, Ossians Crossing, Rathglen. It was great to see so much activity at the starter settlements.
Desynch: I had a few dropouts in the first two hours - but they were my ISP. Never happened before to me as far as I can tell - but suddenly both computers and both mumble clients seized working.
I kept via mumble in contact with another player working our way towards Emerald Lodge. So was nice to arrive and not be alone. Some more people arrived later. Surprise guest - Lisa Stevens. This was when we (actually Baron) reported the issue with the packs multiplying.
Only other issue I'm aware - XP for the Destiny Twins didn't backdate correctly in the first 8 hours. I did the fatal decission to get all DT in the household set up before bedtime in case it would carry on. But that is the price of a pioneer.
Anyhow - stuff happens like Thod training Arteficer 1 (I'm sure he was on the lookout for dowser - not sure what I did there ...).
Have managed to get for the household (6 accounts)
3 Heavy Armour and 1 Runespun Robes
Wands (including spare) and 1 staff
Greatswords
The first few Ogres got killed, also some Alpha Wolfs. In urgent need of Lesser Numinous to get the Sage higher up, still waiting for the smelter, the first 4 recipes are also found.
At Emerald Lodge has been a few players - I expect more to slowly arrive in the next days. The economy will slowly be build up. Have already some 60+ coal waiting for the smelter plus various other ingredients that are stockpiled.
So all in all a very smooth first day. I hope to do later some monster hunting with my son. Skeletons are to be slain around the Emerald Spire and we need to ensure that the escalation stays around the 20% it was earleir today.
Thank you GW and especially Lisa and Ryan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Contact customer support about destiny twin. Was told in game this is the best way to solve it since it now has to be hand done. Sent my email and waiting on a reply it is being looked into as we speak.
As to game.. So far I am having a lot of fun got my longbow, cleric focus and minor heal, training up in freeholder with minor in bow, stealth and perception. The goblin population is being to fear me.
Nice to see folk running around starter settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big worry for me at the moment is the graphics. A MMO indie or not should not look worse than wow, eleven years before it. It has however be said graphics/animations will be upgraded in the future. Still I heard that song and dance a few to many times to believe it, until I see it.
But it works at a smooth and steady pace right now. Not much to say until they start adding more features.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My first day's impression was going quite well, until I had a seemingly critical crash / bug that may not get fixed until next week.
Avoid using Ballestra or any other Charge like ability until further notice, or you may risk not being able to log that character back in again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big worry for me at the moment is the graphics. A MMO indie or not should not look worse than wow, eleven years before it.Like this and this and this? You're right. I wouldn't want it to look worse than that, either.
Well, I think most of the graphics are fine for now, however I was standing next to an Elf yesterday and he scared the bajeezus out of me. He totally looked like an ugly Roswell alien, with weird, glazed-over eyes. So I think we have a long way to go with some of them. Luckily, avatar-graphics used to get improved a *lot* during development. There's a night an day difference between Everquest alpha characters, characters at release and how they are currently looking(fine, in my eyes).
Back to the thread: I had a smooth playing experience yesterday, thanks!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big worry for me at the moment is the graphics. A MMO indie or not should not look worse than wow, eleven years before it.Like this and this and this? You're right. I wouldn't want it to look worse than that, either.
Cal,
You just linked 11 year old graphics that look better, to make what point?
The argument is always made that "game play is more important than graphics", and I wholeheartedly agree when that is the case. In my opinion, the game play does not (yet) and may not ever over compensate for the graphics.
We are now paying customers and promises, excuses and wishful thinking do not carry the same weight they may have during alpha. It is time for delivery, and I am currently sitting out of playing my main because of a bug that existed and was reported before EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I refuse to play "eye candy" games they attract to many self important big girls blouses with a sense of entitlement.
As for EE experience 6/10.
It would have been 9/10 but had a desynch leaving a starter hex that reset me an hour and I lost some +1 stuff I had just picked up cheap at a starter town AH which really annoyed me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The argument is always made that "game play is more important than graphics", and I wholeheartedly agree when that is the case. In my opinion, the game play does not (yet) and may not ever over compensate for the graphics.
Agreed. I am aware this is still early access. But it is still a product you pay for, one you have to subscribe to with monthly payments.
The art style is a bit mis matched, with stylized characters. What looks like a real world texture of bark on trees. I don't know it is hard to tell with how muddy it is. Disgusting lime green grass, jagged hills and bumps in the land.
The characters themselves and their animation is a mess within itself. But what I am mainly trying to get to is not the graphics themselves. I don't need it to be on par to black desert or go down the cartoon route of wildstar. But both those games has a certain style, everything seems to belong with each other.
Where as PFO looks like a bit of a patchwork at the moment.
Bu as bluddwolf said, I can overlook artistic failings. If the game itself is entertaining enough. Which sadly rigght now is a no. I spent two days farming and am now a proud cleric 4.... And now what? Where is the quest for me to pursue, the connection with my unholy mother? Where is the pvp conflict? I can work for gear, but what will gear do for me? What is the point in playing right now?
I am often accused of being to harsh or expecting to much in a game.
But I do not think so. EE is pretty much what I expected... patch work art design not withstanding. I do not however think that renders my critic invalid. A unfinished Ferrari could still be excused to be refereed to as a pile of trash.
They need to at least get it rolling first before hitting the road. to again clarify I am not saying this to hate on the game or damn it for not having everything at the start. I am just offering my critic of what we have and what the game severely lacks.
But at least it is working al right, I haven't had any massive drops in frame rates or crashes. Which is more than I can say for Landmark almost a year in, so take that as you may.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd love to know the difference in headcount between PFO's art team and those of games with "better" graphics. Goblinworks had, last we heard, about 21 people total, including Ryan and Lisa; the art-team--however many of those 21 they are--has done yeoman's work to get us so far so fast.
Pot Plate and Plate+3 recipes, and a quiet chain shirt dropped really early. I'm happy.
Everything went smoothly for me, no new desync or bugs. It was nice seeing a lot of people around. Rathglen seemed packed most of the day (how did I miss the clubbing fun?).
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those of you complaining that there's nothing substantial to do, I think you're missing the point of the sandbox...
I think the question is what do you want to do? The content/conflicts of the game are player created. Right now, my focus is to gather resources and craft to start equipping my settlement. Others are monster hunting and working on beating back escalations to increase the resource value of nearby hexes and to farm for patterns.
On the other side of things, I know there are already shady characters hiding in the bushes and stabbing traveler's in the face. I don't see much point there until husks are implemented, but there you have it.
If you're bored on day 3, you either lack community, vision, or both. In the end this game is what you make it.
As for first impressions of EE. Much improved from when I went inactive in Alpha two months ago. I've had zero bugs or issues. Everything seems to be rolling along as planned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big worry for me at the moment is the graphics. A MMO indie or not should not look worse than wow, eleven years before it.Like this and this and this? You're right. I wouldn't want it to look worse than that, either.Cal,
You just linked 11 year old graphics that look better, to make what point?
That, apparently, better really is in the eye of the beholder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That, apparently, better really is in the eye of the beholder.The big worry for me at the moment is the graphics. A MMO indie or not should not look worse than wow, eleven years before it.Like this and this and this? You're right. I wouldn't want it to look worse than that, either.Cal,
You just linked 11 year old graphics that look better, to make what point?
I wouldn't say that. Crisp clear textures. A consistent artistic tone. Hair while a flat 3d plane, looks like hairs. Not just gobs thrown on top of the head. Less jarring, more colourful, more personality. Not sure what is wrong with it.
To PFO's defence though, at least it has dimensions. Its armour has a physical presence, rather than being painted onto the wearer's skin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't say that.You wouldn't say what, exactly?
That personal prefrence excuse a lack of quality. I am not a graphics hound. One of my favorite games is saints row the third and I've played some heck out of Dragon age origins. Doesn't mean I will deny the lack lustre graphics and lifeless animations. Fact of the matter is that PFO at this time has,Bad textures with obvious seams,Horrid proportions,Stiff and rigid models, And character with poly count, textures and over all detail, worse than wow eleven years ago.
In this age, these are genuine problems. Its not a matter of being the most pretty game on the market. Its about looking half way presentable. Now it could over come such disabilities with game play. Minecraft is evidence of that. But as said there is no real gameplay to make the game stand out yet and until there is, my critic remains.
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The big worry for me at the moment is the graphics. A MMO indie or not should not look worse than wow, eleven years before it. It has however be said graphics/animations will be upgraded in the future. Still I heard that song and dance a few to many times to believe it, until I see it.
But it works at a smooth and steady pace right now. Not much to say until they start adding more features.
What makes me believe they'll do it, is that the splash screen says they are using Unity. From what I've seen, they can simply BUY better (but more expensive) models. Considering they have INVESTORS (hoping for profits) as well as us crowdforgers, keeping expenses down with cheap (hell, maybe free) character models makes sense.
But yeah, many of us have trouble generating word of mouth new players, because as soon as they see the graphics many people turn away from playing. So one could argue that spending for better character models would bring more subscribers, sooner. Oh and Unity also allows one to buy cheap or expensive models for terrain, structures, etc.
My apologies if my assumptions above are way off base, GW.
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On the other side of things, I know there are already shady characters hiding in the bushes and stabbing traveler's in the face. I don't see much point there until husks are implemented, but there you have it.
Testing PvP tactics, as well as letting people know that WE want those nodes, so find another hex, or be inconvenienced by death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't say that.You wouldn't say what, exactly?That personal prefrence excuse a lack of quality. I am not a graphics hound. One of my favorite games is saints row the third and I've played some heck out of Dragon age origins. Doesn't mean I will deny the lack lustre graphics and lifeless animations. Fact of the matter is that PFO at this time has,Bad textures with obvious seams,Horrid proportions,Stiff and rigid models, And character with poly count, textures and over all detail, worse than wow eleven years ago.
In this age, these are genuine problems. Its not a matter of being the most pretty game on the market. Its about looking half way presentable. Now it could over come such disabilities with game play. Minecraft is evidence of that. But as said there is no real gameplay to make the game stand out yet and until there is, my critic remains.
There are people who's entire lives are devoted to analyzing what makes art good or bad. I can appreciate fully that the experienced MMO user feels certain things are essential to "good," but that does not make it true. It simply makes it a perfectly valid opinion.
In my opinion, as someone who made a living for over a decade doing graphic design for a publishing house, the graphic artists for PFO have been working to capture a style that I appreciate. I acknowledge that they have a long way to go to make it what they want, and I don't require that everyone like that style, any more than I'd expect all of my friends to like Dali. That does not make Dali "worse" than Matisse, and does not make the graphics of PFO "worse" than those of WoW 11 years ago. They are concerned with different things, they have different methods and budgets and goals, and they have devoted their energies to different aspects of the work.
Try comparing Shepard's Pooh to Disney's one day, and tell me which one is "better" Whichever you pick, I will find you a hundred people that disagree.
(edit: and, by-the-way, you're wrong. Art is one of the few places in the world where personal preference does, in fact, exactly excuse your perception of what constitutes "lack of quality.")
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Goblin Squad Member
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Style does not really have anything to do with what I am talking about. Avoiding seams is very basic in terms of graphics design. As is keeping clean textures. Finally I think you'll find wolves in the Galorian do not look like mutated ant eaters.
Ref
http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/3/3a/Winter_wolf.jpg/250px -Winter_wolf.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderPlayerCompanion/PZO9436WolfTotem.j pg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/fayrenpickpocket/130425_paint.jpg
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is an extraordinarily large canvas they are painting. Avoiding seams is a goal, but is not as basic as you'd like it to be within the scope of the project. As I wrote previously, "I acknowledge that they have a long way to go to make it what they want."
Different is-not-equal-too worse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, my first day experience was just terrible! Other than the DT xp difference, I haven't a blessed thing to complain about!!!!!
People will think I'm weird or being paid to do a review if I can't find more than one little thing to complain about and only gush about all the fun I had. ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, my first day experience was just terrible! Other than the DT xp difference, I haven't a blessed thing to complain about!!!!!
People will think I'm weird or being paid to do a review if I can't find more than one little thing to complain about and only gush about all the fun I had. ;-)
I was quite enjoying myself as well. I had achieved Rogue 3 or 4, had over 100 Goblin Kills, got my weapons I needed and a good amount of loot to be traded..... Then I switched from Short Bow to Short Sword and in under 10 Goblin kills I git hit with a game crash (possibly caused by a bug associated with Charging Feats), I fell through the ground and into the sky. I logged off of my main and could no longer log in. I'm not alone in this matter (at least two others) and the response from Ryan was "It's our highest priority, but not until maybe next week".
But as I said, I too was having fun, until the game took a crap!!
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This was at least equal to if not better than my first day in any other game, though that is largely due to the folks in my company being so fun.
I have no complaints about my gaming experience, though I still feel like I don't know/understand 95% of the things I will eventually need to know in order to be competitive in PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I've seen, they can simply BUY better (but more expensive) models.
For reference, here's some of what Ryan's told us about Goblinworks and Unity:
We chose Unity because it was the best available client-side solution. The asset store was not a factor.
For the most part, the stuff in the asset store isn't going to work with our tech without so much re-work that we would end up spending about as much time configuring it to work in our toolchain as making it ourselves. We were able to get a large package of weapons which we're using rather than spend time modelling "Pathfinder Specific" stuff (although we'll get to that eventually).
We are, in addition to using Unity, using an off-the-shelf animation package (which we had to integrate with Unity because Unity's built-in system is too slow for an MMO), we're using Havok Physics, we're using Grome, we're using an off-the-shelf content management system for the website, and an off-the-shell forum system that integrates with that CMS.
The two parts of the system where we have invested the most time are the art assets and the server and networking code. Those are essentially "the hard parts" of making an MMO.
We have also spent a lot of time working with Unity itself to determine how to maximize its visual performance. There's a lot of under-the-hood tech in Unity that has to be carefully tweaked and configured and we're using it in a nonstandard way. Our objective is to find a mixture of good quality and a large number of moving entities (usually games are either/or). We have a full-time staff position called a Tech Artist who works almost exclusively on that kind of thing.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'd love to know the difference in headcount between PFO's art team and those of games with "better" graphics. Goblinworks had, last we heard, about 21 people total, including Ryan and Lisa; the art-team--however many of those 21 they are--has done yeoman's work to get us so far so fast.
Yeah, I would love to know the difference in headcount, so I can compare it to the absence of difference in monthly payment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd love to know the difference in headcount between PFO's art team and those of games with "better" graphics. Goblinworks had, last we heard, about 21 people total, including Ryan and Lisa; the art-team--however many of those 21 they are--has done yeoman's work to get us so far so fast.
This I'm afraid is a false argument because no one is comparing PFO to any game being developed today and or buy a staff of one of the larger companies.
Graphics are being compared to larger companies only when looking at their games from 11 years ago!
Graphics are being compared to other games made by other independent or small shops today.
Fallen Earth was developed by a small company in 2009, and its lead developer was Lee Hammock. Wouldn't it be a good comparison?
Fallen Earth Random Screen Shot
I'm not suggesting that PFO graphics won't eventually compare well to these, but then they will only be catching up to 2009.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my opinion, as someone who made a living for over a decade doing graphic design for a publishing house, the graphic artists for PFO have been working to capture a style that I appreciate. I acknowledge that they have a long way to go to make it what they want, and I don't require that everyone like that style, any more than I'd expect all of my friends to like Dali. That does not make Dali "worse" than Matisse, and does not make the graphics of PFO "worse" than those of WoW 11 years ago. They are concerned with different things, they have different methods and budgets and goals, and they have devoted...
Off-topic, but if you like Dali you should visit the Salvador Dali Museum in St. Petersburg, Florida. I'm not a huge fan of Dali, and I loved it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I would love to know the difference in headcount, so I can compare it to the absence of difference in monthly payment.You can't have a difference between $0 and $0. Since you aren't playing, why does it matter to you?
Basically people that think they are paying for a fully implemented game really should wait till OE.
What you are actually paying for at EE is:
- an opportunity to observe the development of a game before full release and have some input (which may or may not be acted on)into the direction the game takes
- an opportunity to be involved in establishing the player guilds which potentially may dominate the game in the first few years
- an opportunity to create an early character with skills, items and XP that will carry on to the full game
- an opportunity to get a complete understanding of the game mechanics by watching the game development
What you are NOT paying for is a full featured product. If you want a full featured product you SHOULD wait till OE,
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CEO, Goblinworks
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This is a more apt apples to apples comparison.
Let's take a look at what makes these two images different and why the Pathfinder Online image is substantially better.
First, notice the absence of shadows on the right hand (Fallen Earth) side. There's no shadows on the ground. The character's arm doesn't cast a shadow on the left side of her jacket. The nose doesn't cast a shadow on the face. Her left leg doesn't cast a shadow on her right leg.
Now look at the left hand (Pathfinder Online) side. Shadows are everywhere. The character casts shadows on itself - half the face is shaded by the other half, the upper right body area is deeply shadowed by the bulk of the body and the arm and you can see how that shadow drops off diagonally across the lower torso. That's all animated in realtime so as the character moves so do all the shadows it is casting. There are shadows from the environment - see the shadow of the tree on the wood fence? See how the end of the weapon rack shadows itself? The environmental shadows are also animated - the trees sway back and forth and the shadow they cast moves synchronously, all in real time.
Second, the objects in the Fallen Earth screenshot don't have a bump map - look at the two gun tubes the character has strapped to her outfit (and where is her gunbelt?) Those tubes have a graphic that appears to be 3D, but you can see they're actually just 2D textures. Compare that to the head of the mace the Dwarf is wielding - see how it appears to be 3D? You get the same effect from the Dwarf's armor - look at the 3D nature of the shoulderpads and the chainmail undershirt. Look at the wood fence - see how the logs look 3D?
The outfit the Fallen Earth character is wearing doesn't interact with the lighting either. Look at the left arm of the Pathfinder Online character. See how it gets noticeably brighter towards the hand? That's a specular effect - it is reflecting the light from the material, and the amount of reflectivity and the color of the reflection are a part of that asset. You can see the same effect on the tip of the spear. Metal will have a different specularity than wood or cloth or skin - all rendered in realtime as the background lighting changes color.
You can't tell from these pictures but the Pathfinder Online character has a variety of color layers on that outfit as well. The player can select two hues of color that allow the armor to be highly customized - every suit of clothing in the game has those properties. I doubt that the Fallen Earth costumes did - they are likely colored by the art team when the asset was created, or perhaps could be "dyed" when crafted but not easily changed in realtime.
I don't know if the face of the Fallen Earth character is rigged for animation, but I do know the Pathfidner Online character's is. It has eyeballs, eyelids, lips, teeth and a jaw. It can open and close its eyes, and move its mouth "naturally". In realtime, and not on a simple script.
It's hard to see but the number of polygons in the Pathfinder Online character is much higher than the Fallen Earth character. Look at the two faces - the Fallen Earth face is very smooth and her hair is very solid. The Dwarf's face has lots of character lines, defined eyebrow ridges, and it's hair and beard is comprised of a lot more segments and sections.
Another thing that is impossible to see is that the Fallen Earth character probably has a "mitten" where all the fingers of the hand move as one object. The Pathfinder Online character has individual fingers which can be individually animated and which "grasp" like a real hand. It is possible that there are more points of articulation (called "bones" in animation argot) in the Pathfinder Online's hand and arm than there are in the whole body of the Fallen Earth character.
Anyway, that's a quick discussion of the kinds of technology that is already in Pathfinder Online that makes the graphics look better than older MMOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Fallen Earth outfit is made up of individual parts; a hat, shirt, pants, coat, gloves and others not visible or worn. Each of which can be individually dyed with up to 3 different colors after creation.
There isn't going to be a winner in this comparison. One is a finished game and the other is in development.
Instead of trying to say that PFO is worse or better we should be looking at games like Fallen Earth, pointing out cool things it has and saying, "hey! Let's get that in PFO!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Fallen Earth outfit is made up of individual parts; a hat, shirt, pants, coat, gloves and others not visible or worn. Each of which can be individually dyed with up to 3 different colors after creation.
Let's get that in PFO!"
Lee had a little bit of input into the crafting system of Fallen Earth if I recall correctly, so I expect PFO will look pretty cool down the road!
Question for ya'll - where are we submitting feedback for little things...yes, bugs, but almost not worthy of a bug report. I'll bug two things if needed. (Map icon disappears on death and forces relog; health often does not regenerate after combat, requiring relog to reset.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I think most of the graphics are fine for now, however I was standing next to an Elf yesterday and he scared the bajeezus out of me. He totally looked like an ugly Roswell alien, with weird, glazed-over eyes.
Now you realize why I write science fiction. It isn't fiction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can't have a difference between $0 and $0. Since you aren't playing, why does it matter to you?Sorry, I didn't realise that paying 100$ for three months was equal to 0$.
I wasn't talking about anyone that is still participating. Only those that keep throwing stones from the edge of the rink long after they've said they're taking their toys and going home.