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If I have 4 attacks with grab and the constrict ability, and hit with all of them do I get to roll a grab check on each?
Assuming I do and the first one is successful, I then do constrict damage. Can I then let go as a free action and then use the second attack to roll another grab check? If I can then do I get to rince/repeat 4 times?
Hit/grab/constrict/release - hit/grab/constrict/release etc etc?
Yeah you could per RAW, but it could lead to a lot more damage than the devs intended for a monster to do. Just be careful if you use it. If you are a player run this by the GM first. Just because it is rules legal does not mean every GM will allow it.
It's for my character (wood Oracle 9 - plant shape II), I turn into a Vine Viper that has a 10ft bite and four 20ft tentacles with grab and constrict.
The damage output difference would be +42 extra (average 134 total) if I constrict 4 times. Obviously I'd need to both hit (+15) and overcome the monster CMD (CMB +20) first.
Not sure the DM will let it fly!
You only need to beat its normal CMD for this to work.
You full attack
attack 1 hits
grab as a free action, release as a free action
It's for my character (wood Oracle 9 - plant shape II), I turn into a Vine Viper that has a 10ft bite and four 20ft tentacles with grab and constrict.
The damage output difference would be +42 extra (average 134 total) if I constrict 4 times. Obviously I'd need to both hit (+15) and overcome the monster CMD (CMB +20) first.Not sure the DM will let it fly!
A vine viper or a viper vine? Sounds like the latter. I'd say this is a good thing to ask the GM before you count on the damage. If you surprise the GM with this at the table, it's likely you'll get a scowl and "You can't do that many free actions!" As detailed as the rules are, some things require adjudication. I'd probably let you attack/grab/constrict with all 4 attacks separately without letting go, but I don't know if that's allowed by RAW. Since you can make a natural attack while grappled, I don't see why you can't do all 4 even after the first one successfully grabbed.
That's how it should work (all the way around - monsters with grab and constrict are can do this as well) - constrict is a powerful ability - the first death I had in my RotRL campaign was to a giant crab ... due to constrict.
As to game breaking? No - at level 9 a barbarian should be able to do a similar amount of damage.
Barb level 9 - +9/+4
Str 22 (start 16 +2 race, +4 level up)
Rage Str 26
Earthbreaker 2d6 x3
2hPower attack(-3,+9) + vital strike first round = +14(4d6+17) (21-41, or 55-75 on a crit)
2nd round = +14 (19-29, 53-73) and +9 (19-29, 53-73)
Total damage output over 2 rounds = 59-99, or 161-221 if all 3 attacks crit.
The druid spent round 1 casting plant shape. I'd say his 2 round damage is pretty much on par (this is without anything else on the naked raging barb mind you)
The druid just also nerfed his movement to 10 feet per round - although he does have a 20 foot reach it isn't difficult to avoid him.
I didn't notice the speed, as I spend 9 hours in this form I should probably choose an Alraune instead.
Only 4 attacks but still has grab/constrict and it's damage die is d10 rather than d6. Damage 132 if all hits and constricts succeed.
Not letting go seems counterproductive as if I let go after each tentacle I can do hit damage and constrict damage, if I keep hold after the first attack can I still do that? If so, would I roll to hit still or just do the grab bit - and would that allow regular damage as well as constrict?
The druid spent round 1 casting plant shape. I'd say his 2 round damage is pretty much on par (this is without anything else on the naked raging barb mind you)
The druid just also nerfed his movement to 10 feet per round - although he does have a 20 foot reach it isn't difficult to avoid him.
No Druids here. Only wiz/sorc/alchem can cast plant shape 2, and only at level 11/12. A half-Elf Oracle can do it level 9 - 1 hour/level.
At 10th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Large elemental or a Large plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body III. When taking the form of a plant, the druid's wild shape now functions as plant shape II.
That's not cast, and is a level later.
I have a player who uses this tactic. He's a grappler, and through a combination of items and feats, he has grab and constrict. On his turn, he runs through an intricate series of d20s and damage rolls, finally ending with a whopping total of 89 damage from his full round.
Then, on the magus's turn, the magus crits for 134... and then full attacks.
And the barbarian doesn't even need to break a sweat to out-damage him.
This tactic isn't game breaking.
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When you do Grab, that does a normal Grapple, which ends your attacks, unless you take a -20 on the CMB check.
Rule citation?
@Ooze Licker, the bigger danger isn't when you do this to a monster, it's when the GM gets a high CR monster and what's-good-for-the-goose-is-good-for-the-ganders your party.
When you do Grab, that does a normal Grapple, which ends your attacks, unless you take a -20 on the CMB check.
That is not in rule book. The -20 is to avoid the grappled condition yourself. It does not prevent the rest of your full round attacks, and even grappled creatures can make full round attacks.
If your enemy can be grappled and full attack you, there is no reason why you can not full attack it.
Grab, Rake, Release, Grab is also a thing.
People upthread are right, by RAW this is doable with one HUGE CAVEAT:
By RAW, the GM is the final arbiter of how many free actions you may take in a round.
Some GMs maybe be okay with the fighting-game-juggle-combo that this represents. Others are well within their rights to say you can only establish and release a grapple a given number of times. You'll want to run this by whoever is GMing before you spring it on them.
And honestly, that's the best way to handle things like this anyway, but in this case it is explicitly the GM's call.
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When you do Grab, that does a normal Grapple, which ends your attacks, unless you take a -20 on the CMB check.That is not in rule book. The -20 is to avoid the grappled condition yourself. It does not prevent the rest of your full round attacks, and even grappled creatures can make full round attacks.
If your enemy can be grappled and full attack you, there is no reason why you can not full attack it.
Actually, you could make the argument that the grappled condition does in fact interrupt your full attack.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
So depending on how you are gaining these attacks, your action might be interrupted. I would qualify a natural attack full-attack as requiring two hands.
So things without hands can never natural full-attack?
When you do Grab, that does a normal Grapple, which ends your attacks, unless you take a -20 on the CMB check.That is not in rule book. The -20 is to avoid the grappled condition yourself. It does not prevent the rest of your full round attacks, and even grappled creatures can make full round attacks.
If your enemy can be grappled and full attack you, there is no reason why you can not full attack it.
Actually, you could make the argument that the grappled condition does in fact interrupt your full attack.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
So depending on how you are gaining these attacks, your action might be interrupted. I would qualify a natural attack full-attack as requiring two hands.
Grapple: There are some contradictions between the various rules on grappling. What is correct?
To sum up the correct rules:
1) Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target.
2) A grappled creature can still make a full attack.
3) Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus.
Update: Page 195—In Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers, in the entry for Grappling, delete the superscript “1” after the +0 in the Melee and Ranged columns. In the third footnote, change “flat-footed and cannot add his Dexterity bonus” to “denied its Dexterity bonus”
Update: Page 201—In the If You Are Grappled section, in the fourth sentence, change “any action that requires only one hand to perform” to “any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform.” In the fourth sentence, change “make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon” to “make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon”
Update: Page 568—In the Pinned condition, in the second sentence, change “flat-footed” to “denied its Dexterity bonus.”
PRD says
Weapon Finesse (Combat)You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
So no - natural attacks are light weapons and can be used for a full attack even with the grappled condition.
This has nothing to do with the weapon category of natural attacks and everything to do with the two-weapon fighting errata that even non-arm limbs count as hands when you make attacks.
Actually, you could make the argument that the grappled condition does in fact interrupt your full attack.A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
So depending on how you are gaining these attacks, your action might be interrupted. I would qualify a natural attack full-attack as requiring two hands.
...Grapple: There are some contradictions between the various rules on grappling. What is correct?
To sum up the correct rules:
1) Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target.
2) A grappled creature can still make a full attack.
3) Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus.
Update: Page 195—In Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers, in the entry for Grappling, delete the superscript “1” after the +0 in the Melee and Ranged columns. In the third footnote, change “flat-footed and cannot add his Dexterity bonus” to “denied its Dexterity bonus”
Update:
No - it's how they work - Natural attacks are not two handed weapons - you won't find a rule like that anywhere in the books - they are considered light weapons - this is explicit in the books.
Also explicit is the following (from universal monster rules):
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
So a natural attack is an attack with a single limb - not two limbs - this universal monster rule has been in effect from bestiary 1 forward - if you want to rule that natural attacks are two handed that's a house rule and not RAW, it doesn't make it a bad rule but it's not how the game is designed.
[QUOTE="Ooze licker"
Not letting go seems counterproductive as if I let go after each tentacle I can do hit damage and constrict damage, if I keep hold after the first attack can I still do that? If so, would I roll to hit still or just do the grab bit - and would that allow regular damage as well as constrict?
Can anyone answer this?
Again, not what I am arguing at all. I know natural weapons are light, have never claimed otherwise, nor that they are being used two-handed. What I am claiming is that you cannot make a full attack with multiple natural weapons with the grappled condition for the same reason you cannot two-weapon fight (again, not two-handed), in that the action requires the use of multiple limbs simultaneously, and that limbs in this case qualify as hands.This has nothing to do with the weapon category of natural attacks and everything to do with the two-weapon fighting errata that even non-arm limbs count as hands when you make attacks.No - it's how they work - Natural attacks are not two handed weapons - you won't find a rule like that anywhere in the books - they are considered light weapons - this is explicit in the books.
Also explicit is the following (from universal monster rules):
Quote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
So a natural attack is an attack with a single limb - not two limbs - this universal monster rule has been in effect from bestiary 1 forward - if you want to rule that natural attacks are two handed that's a house rule and not RAW, it doesn't make it a bad rule but it's not how the game is designed.
Using natural weapons is not TWF. It does not use the 'hands of effort' pseudo rule.
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When you do Grab, that does a normal Grapple, which ends your attacks, unless you take a -20 on the CMB check.Rule citation?
@Ooze Licker, the bigger danger isn't when you do this to a monster, it's when the GM gets a high CR monster and what's-good-for-the-goose-is-good-for-the-ganders your party.
Say hello to my friend:
4 claws, +14 (1d4+4 plus Grab)
Special attacks: Evisceration, sneak attack +2d6
Evisceration: When it succeeds at a a grapple check, it deals its sneak attack damage to the victim, in addition to any other effects caused by a successful grapple check. A creature that takes this damage must succeed at a DC 18 Fortitude save, or take an additional 1d4 points of ability damage (the type of ability damage chosen by this creature, not the target)
Again, not what I am arguing at all. I know natural weapons are light, have never claimed otherwise, nor that they are being used two-handed. What I am claiming is that you cannot make a full attack with multiple natural weapons with the grappled condition for the same reason you cannot two-weapon fight (again, not two-handed), in that the action requires the use of multiple limbs simultaneously, and that limbs in this case qualify as hands.This has nothing to do with the weapon category of natural attacks and everything to do with the two-weapon fighting errata that even non-arm limbs count as hands when you make attacks.No - it's how they work - Natural attacks are not two handed weapons - you won't find a rule like that anywhere in the books - they are considered light weapons - this is explicit in the books.
Also explicit is the following (from universal monster rules):
Quote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
So a natural attack is an attack with a single limb - not two limbs - this universal monster rule has been in effect from bestiary 1 forward - if you want to rule that natural attacks are two handed that's a house rule and not RAW, it doesn't make it a bad rule but it's not how the game is designed.
That is incorrect. The devs have said you can full attack while in a grapple, and limbs are not always equal to hands. There is no ruling to support this.
The ability is first takeable at level 3 - FCB can't be applied to the revelation until it is taken.
Oh? Would you please be so kind as to quote a supporting rule source for that?
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The problem with full-attacks and normal grapple is that you have to maintain the grapple with (normally) a standard action in the round. This prevents a full-attack, and is why many people think you can't full attack in a grapple. The person being grappled, the grapplee, doesn't need to maintain the grapple, and so finds it much easier to full attack (using only one hand, of course).
Obviously, the grab ability doesn't work this way, and constrict damage happens automatically. But this may be a big part of the question about continuing a full-attack that includes grab as part of the repertoire.
The ability is first takeable at level 3 - FCB can't be applied to the revelation until it is taken.A half-Elf Oracle can do it level 9 - 1 hour/level.If you are using the elf FCB to advance the revelation, wouldn't it be earlier than 9?
ie level 8 + 4 effective from FCB
This is correct but I'm also bumping up the wood armour so I haven't optimized one revelation (I know, I know, I should probably be shot on sight!)
The problem with full-attacks and normal grapple is that you have to maintain the grapple with (normally) a standard action in the round. This prevents a full-attack, and is why many people think you can't full attack in a grapple. The person being grappled, the grapplee, doesn't need to maintain the grapple, and so finds it much easier to full attack (using only one hand, of course).
Obviously, the grab ability doesn't work this way, and constrict damage happens automatically. But this may be a big part of the question about continuing a full-attack that includes grab as part of the repertoire.
The Grab mechanic changes the grapple check from a standard action that provokes an AoO to a free action that doesn't provoke. Also letting go is a free action.
So as part of an attack routine using a full round action you are actually...Attack No.1(roll d20 to hit)/damage(auto)/free action(grab)/free action(auto constrict
damage)/free action(let go)
Repeat/rinse x number of remaining attacks.
.
So as an Alraune I want to be able to perform 12 free actions in my turn - is that unreasonable?
So as an Alraune I want to be able to perform 12 free actions in my turn - is that unreasonable?
That's less than a high level archer or gunslinger traditionally makes from what I understand. And any GM who will let them have enough free actions to reload, but won't give you the same number of free actions to grapple, isn't really worth playing with.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You can take things that grant 1/X of something beginning at 1st, but you can't take things that add +1/2 level of something if you don't have that something yet.
So 1/6 feat is a-ok but +1/2 level on a Revelation that is granted at 7th can't be improved until 7th when you take the Revelation.
Right, you can make a full-attack with a light or one-handed weapon. So yeah, you can make a full attack with a single natural weapon, still...
Each natural attack is both a light and one handed weapon - so you can make a full attack with natural attacks when grappled.
The rules are clear on that.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
So each natural attack is a separate limb that can make an attack using the full attack action. Each limb counts as light weapon - and is one handed (and could wield a one handed weapon).
In this case the plant creature could wield a dagger in each vine by raw - are you still going to say that they can't make a full attack? That's the point of natural attacks - they break the BAB progression, which is why if a single limb is holding a weapon - other natural attacks are treated as secondary - because the weapon holding limb gets full BAB progression *in addition to the natural attacks*.
For an example I point you at the entry for Demon, Marilith on the PRD:
Melee +1 longsword +24/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+8/17–20), 5 +1 longswords +24 (2d6+4/17–20), tail slap +19 (2d6+3 plus grab) or 6 slams +22 (1d8+7), tail slap +19 (2d6+3 plus grab)
Notice that she gets 9 attacks using the full attack option with weapons in her hands - or 6 slams (one for each natural attack) - in either case she also gets a tail slap with grab (and constrict btw).
So are you trying to seriously say that by RAW you can negate 6 of the Marilith's 10 attacks on a full attack action - by simply grappling it?
Dude you're wrong, if you are grappling an Alraune, in its turn it can hit you 4 times, once for each tentacle.
Dude you're wrong, if you are grappling an Alraune, in its turn it can hit you 4 times, once for each tentacle.Not according to the rules.
That depends on who is maintaining the grapple. If the Alraune initiated the grapple and is hoping to maintain it, it can't attack in the same round (having already spent its standard action to maintain).
However, if YOU grapple the Alraune, then it can take a full attack action to attempt to strike you four times on its turn. Grappling does nothing to prevent that.
That's RAW.
I wasn't clear, when I wrote if you're grappling I meant the PC initiated.
If it was the other way round the Alraune would free action let go at the start of its turn to enable it to get in maximum attacks (unless it's stupid!)