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Fun Rogue Vital Striker Build

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If you are looking for a scary powerful Vital Striker, look no further. Build comes fully only by level 9 but the road there should be fun.

Peachsummers
Human Rogue 12 (Bandit/Thug)
20 point buy STR 16 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 15
Race bonus STR +2
Pips 4 (+1 STR); 8 (+1 CHA); 12 (+1 STR)
Alternative Racial Traits Adoptive Heritage (Ogrekin)
Traits Irrepressible, Resilient (if GM says Ogrekin do not grant Greatsword proficiency - Bestiary says they do - take Heirloom Weapon for the proficiency)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skills Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive
Feat progression
1. Racial Heritage (Ogrekin)
3. Power Attack
5. Cornugon Smash
7. Dazzling Display
9. Savage Critical
11. Disheartening Display
Rogue Talent progression
2. Weapon Training (Greatsword)
4. Combat Trick (Furious Focus)
6. Offensive Defense // FCB: Strong Impression
8. Ninja Trick > Combat Trick (Vital Strike)
10. Feat (Steadfast Personality)
12. Improved Evasion // FCB: Crippling Strike
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TACTICS
The whole point of this build is taking advantage of Savage Critical to apply Sneak Attack on every attack you make, using Bandit's ability to move and Vital Strike on the surprise round to great effect.
Furthermore, if you secure a critical by random chance, between Savage Critical, Cornugon Smash, the Thug's and the Bandit's features, you can instantly make an enemy cower or panicked (which makes them easy prey for Disheartening Display to make them cower).
Remember you also make them sickened by forgoing 1d6 sneak attack damage, so throw out that debuff around a lot too! It's virtual AC.

It really wants more AC and the likes of Mobility, but the offensive suite is pretty much finished. Get a keen Greatsword. Anyone who hands you over a Lead Blades enchant is your best friend.

Feedback? Ideas?

cant you do similar with a half orc via greataxe? also, arent CDGs a fullround action that provokes AoOs? doesnt seem a good idea in combat, and presumably you'd all by tying up/CDGing whoever's left once the battle's over with anyway.

afaik enemies only cower if they cant escape by running away and such, so unless your wizard is boxing you together that's kinda out the window (and also useless against things that can fly)

I removed the CDG angle, I realize it was a bit too much.

Yeah, you can make one of these with Half-Orcs and Greataxes, but you still need Racial Heritage (Ogrekin) to qualify for Savage Critical.

FUN FAXX: Once your STR is 21, since you are an Ogre, you qualify for the Raging Brute feat, which can give you a rage power 1/day for 1 minute. If you face 15 minute adventuring days, it could be fun.

nvm XD

Any ideas on how to further optimize this?

Ummm can you even take racial heritage: ogre kin? Does that even qualify as a race?
Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Ummm can you even take racial heritage: ogre kin? Does that even qualify as a race?

It is according to Bastards of Golarion.

Ill take your word for it, as I do not have that book.

Are the stats for that race online anywhere that you know of? I'm always interested in material I haven't seen yet

Is that Savage Critical from 3pp?
Also, apart form getting sneak attack and good str its fairly straightforward, but it is for sure fun. Have a look at a thread called "one big hit build" i think it was called; it has good ideas.

Furthermore, if you attack once per round medium bab hurts. If still rogue look into Ninja, iirc can take Scout archetype.

Consider Impact for weapon damage too.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are not set racial stats, but it recommends giving +1 Natural Armor at the cost of 2 Racial Points (probably dropping a human trait and picking up a penalty).

@Errant Mercenary: It's Savage Critical from Monster Codex.

EDIT: I don't believe you can take The Ninja Trick > Combat Trick due to the line "A rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent."
Grand Lodge

What is Racial Heritage(Ogrekin) doing for you, that Racial Heritage(Ogre) could not?
Xethik wrote:

@Errant Mercenary: It's Savage Critical from Monster Codex.
/QUOTE]

Thanks! That's a very interesting feat. It makes so that you dont need to be a Scout at all (unless you need the sneak attack on a charge instead of move-VitalStrike)
Errant Mercenary wrote:

Is that Savage Critical from 3pp?

Also, apart form getting sneak attack and good str its fairly straightforward, but it is for sure fun. Have a look at a thread called "one big hit build" i think it was called; it has good ideas.

Furthermore, if you attack once per round medium bab hurts. If still rogue look into Ninja, iirc can take Scout archetype.

Consider Impact for weapon damage too.

As you see, Savage Critical is the heart and soul of this build.

An Impact Earthbreaker or something like that could be a good idea though, don't know if Impact stacks with Lead Blades though, while the Greatsword does.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What is Racial Heritage(Ogrekin) doing for you, that Racial Heritage(Ogre) could not?

I'm working under the notion Ogrekin is the racial name for Ogres, which is the individual name.

Errant Mercenary wrote:


Thanks! That's a very interesting feat. It makes so that you dont need to be a Scout at all (unless you need the sneak attack on a charge instead of move-VitalStrike)

That's why I pick Bandit instead of Scout, so I can move/Vital Strike on surprise rounds.

Yeah but this still feels inferior to the Scout's ability to charge/sneak attack at 4th level and the 8th level ability to move/sneak attack.

Savage Critical is a pretty decent feat though.

Your build would be awesome if you could guarantee to Cower your opponent. The most I'm seeing right now (and please correct me if I'm interpreting anything wrong) is that at most you can get your opponent to a Panicked condition.
1. Using Cornugon Smash to free action Demoralize
2. Using Thug to possibly increase his Shaken condition to Frightened
3. Now your opponent is running away Frightened on his turn.
4. Using Dazzling/Disheartening Display makes the Frightened foe Panicked and still running away, but you had to use a full round action to just upgrade from Frightened to Panicked.
5. Bandit can also a few times a day after a critical sneak attack make his foe Frightened too.

I'm just not seeing it. Sure you're good at making the enemy run off and drop their weapons. Obviously they'll also provoke attacks from running/moving through threatened squares and still be sneak attack vulnerable because of their running and frightened/panicked/shaken condition, especially if you have Shatter Defenses.

I'm not bashing here on my comments about this build, I just don't understand it perhaps. It seems like a lot of wasted action economy in my interpretation of it.

Also the Bandit's ability to give extra actions on the Surprise Round is still dependent on him being Aware of his opponents if he is the one being surprised. If he is the Ambusher then its a bit better.
Scarab Sages
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What's really interesting, is Savage Critical doesn't let you sneak attack on a vital strike, it allows you to add your sneak attack damage to the vital strike. This means that you can add this damage on any vital strike hit, even if the target is otherwise immune to sneak attack damage.

You can finally sneak attack elementals and oozes with this feat.
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@Imbicatus: Not only that, Savage Critical makes sneak attack not precision damage, so you can apply it against invisible attackers and in complete darkness.

After some thought, I came up with three versions of this build:

1. Human Rogue Swashbuckler (arch)/Bandit, with an Impact bludgeoning weapon or reach weapon.

2. Human Rogue Bandit//Slayer 3, dipping for studied target and early access to Vital Strike.

3. Half-Orc Rogue Thug/Bandit intimidator.
Liberty's Edge

Interesting.

I feel like, nice as this is, you might do better with Slayer and, say, the Enforcer Feat plus the Blade of Mercy Trait. Higher BAB and Studied Target help out quite a bit.

Also, random note, but Cornugon Smash requires 6 ranks of Intimidate, which means you'll need to rearrange things a bit.

You can't take ninja tricks that have the same name as rogue talents, so no double dipping Combat Trick unless you have the Swashbuckler archetype. If you do there is no need to use ninja trick to get it you just pick it twice.

I think you probably want a level of Diviner in there so you are never surprised and can use wands without UMD. Starting out combat after going invisible and summoning monsters could make you powerful enough to solo fights you otherwise need backup for, though summoning is going to ruin your surprise round and decent summon wands are expensive. Never hurts to have a wand of a ray spell to sneak attack high AC opponents either, though this character is obviously a melee beast.
Scarab Sages
Gregory Connolly wrote:

You can't take ninja tricks that have the same name as rogue talents, so no double dipping Combat Trick unless you have the Swashbuckler archetype. If you do there is no need to use ninja trick to get it you just pick it twice.

RAW, that rule is one way. A ninja is prohibited from taking rogue talents with the same name as a ninja trick with the rogue talent trick, but a rogue is not prohibited from taking a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent with the ninja trick talent.

That said, many GMs take a dim view on that, expect table variation.

Are you sure? Because this says
"Note: A rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent."
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Interesting.

I feel like, nice as this is, you might do better with Slayer and, say, the Enforcer Feat plus the Blade of Mercy Trait. Higher BAB and Studied Target help out quite a bit.

Also, random note, but Cornugon Smash requires 6 ranks of Intimidate, which means you'll need to rearrange things a bit.

Thanks for the note on smash.

Slayer isn't worth it beyond the 3 level dip in my opinion, this build doesn't care so much about iteratives so BAB isn't much the matter.

Quote:
I think you probably want a level of Diviner in there so you are never surprised

there's enough points to take full into perception, which is a class skill. i don't think getting surprised will be an issue.

Scarab Sages
Avoron wrote:

Are you sure? Because this says

"Note: A rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent."

That is not an official site.

My Rulebook states " A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once."

However, the PRD is updated, and reads "Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once. The ninja cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent."

Since the PRD shows the last sentence that incorrectly states the ninja cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent at the end of the rogue talent entry, I think it's fair to say this has been errata'd to be illegal, but the errata needs errata because it does nothing as written.
Liberty's Edge
Secret Wizard wrote:

Thanks for the note on smash.

Slayer isn't worth it beyond the 3 level dip in my opinion, this build doesn't care so much about iteratives so BAB isn't much the matter.

Eh...looking at a 13th level build, the Slayer's got +16 to hit from Class for +15(+30 w/ Vital strike) +4d6 (so +44) damage with Studied Target, Sneak Attack and Power Attack. A Rogue of the same level has +9 to hit for +9 damage (+18 w/Vital Strike) +7d6 (so +32.5 total).

Looking at both at a more reasonable 5th level, the Slayer has +7 to hit for +8 (+16 w/ Vital Strike) damage +1d6 Sneak Attack (+19.5 total). The Rogue, meanwhile, has +3 to hit for +3 damage (+6 with Vital Strike), +3d6 Sneak Attack (+16.5 total).

At 9th level (midway between the two), the Slayer has +11 to hit for +11 (+22 w/ Vital Strike) damage +3d6 Sneak Attack (+32.5 total). The Rogue, meanwhile, has +6 to hit for +6 damage (+12 with Vital Strike), +5d6 Sneak Attack (+29.5 total).

Adding only three levels of Slayer doesn't change those Rogue damage numbers much. There are some levels where the Rogue comes out ahead, but not many, and they become less and less common as the level rises.

Even ignoring the attack bonus...the greater Power Attack damage from BAB, plus the doubling of Studied Target's damage bonus, really makes a difference in damage.

dotting this

Gregory Connolly already mentioning taking Diviner to always getting to act in a surprise round. However you can also add Sohei Monk to that list of being able to always act in surprise round regardless of being aware or not.

Sohei will give you Unarmed Strike, a bonus feat, Handle Animal class skill plus others, and all martial weapons as well.

I'm not that worried about surprise rounds. High perception always does the trick for me, it's not like I'm dumping WIS or that it's not a class skill.

I think I'll go full Rogue with the Bandit archetype as Half-Orc, trap spotting is good in my tables and I want to pick up Dispelling Strike.
Liberty's Edge
Secret Wizard wrote:
I think I'll go full Rogue with the Bandit archetype as Half-Orc, trap spotting is good in my tables and I want to pick up Dispelling Strike.

Slayers can get Trapfinding...though it is, admittedly, a Talent.

Dispelling Strike not so much, though.

GM likes to equip high level monsters with custom crazy stuff (think Oozes with WBL), Dispelling Strike is gonna poop on his cereal.
Scarab Sages

You can't take Dispelling Attack with this character. You've dumped INT to 7, and Dispelling attack requires Major Magic, and Major Magic requires int 11.

Yeah yeah, different attribute distribution too. This was just my draft for the campaign.

I was trying to think if I could come up with any cool Oversized Goblins builds (Pack Rager perhaps? Still better done as an Orc) but the Monster Codex just provided me with Savage Critical as the most interesting build possibility.

I think I might not be able to do this but help me out here.

Savage Critical: Prerequisite(s): Str 19, ogre, sneak attack +2d6.

Benefit(s): When you hit a creature using the Vital Strike feat or confirm a critical hit against an opponent, add your sneak attack damage to the damage from the attack. This feat has no effect on attacks that already allow you to add sneak attack damage.

Alchemists Bombs: Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).

Delayed Bomb Discovery: The alchemist can place a bomb so that it explodes a number of rounds after the alchemist ceases contact with the bomb. This delay can be any number of rounds as chosen by the alchemist, up to a number of rounds equal to his level. If at any point the alchemist reclaims possession of the delayed bomb, he can end the timer and prevent the bomb’s detonation. A delayed bomb detonates immediately if any other creature attempts to touch or move it, or if the bomb’s contents are removed from the vial (such as if the vial breaks).

Bomber (Su): A rogue with this talent can make a
number of bombs per day equal to her Intelligence
modifier (minimum 1). These bombs act as alchemist’s
bombs (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 28), except
they deal damage equal to the damage dealt by the rogue’s
sneak attack (the rogue doesn’t add her Intelligence
modifier to this damage).

Bomber’s Discovery (Su): A rogue with this talent gains
an alchemist’s discovery that modifies a bomb. A rogue
must have the bomber rogue talent to select this talent.

So there's a lot of assumption on my part here, namely being able to make a Delayed Bomb as a Rogue and then end the timer and be able to throw it at an enemy using Vital Strike/Savage Critical on the next round. Due to the part in Alchemist's Bombs saying it takes a standard action to make/throw one and Bomber Talent saying they act like Alchemist Bombs. And what exactly is the Bonus damage of Alchemist Bombs that isn't multiplied on a crit or with Vital Strike? Is it the Alchemist's INT bonus that is being talked about or the additional +1d6's that is gained by levels?

If you can do this, what is the damage being done here for say a 9th level Rogue using Savage Critical?

@ deadmanwalking, it looks like you are doubling static mods for vital strike - reread the feat, you only double the dice, not any bonuses
Liberty's Edge
plaidwandering wrote:
@ deadmanwalking, it looks like you are doubling static mods for vital strike - reread the feat, you only double the dice, not any bonuses

Shit. You're right, I even knew that, I'm just clearly distracted today (things have been happening).

My bad.

Let's re-work that real quick:

Looking at a 13th level build, the Slayer's got +16 to hit from Class for +15 +4d6 (so +29) damage with Studied Target, Sneak Attack and Power Attack. A Rogue of the same level has +9 to hit for +9 damage +7d6 (so +33.5 total).

Looking at both at a more reasonable 5th level, the Slayer has +7 to hit for +8 damage +1d6 Sneak Attack (+11.5 total). The Rogue, meanwhile, has +3 to hit for +3 damage, +3d6 Sneak Attack (+13.5 total).

At 9th level (midway between the two), the Slayer has +11 to hit for +11 damage +3d6 Sneak Attack (+21.5 total). The Rogue, meanwhile, has +6 to hit for +6 damage, +5d6 Sneak Attack (+23.5 total).

Okay, that makes it a bit less clear. I'd still say that, even only Vital Striking, the DPR's a lot better with Slayer given its vastly higher to-hit, but it is a bit less damage per hit than the Rogue.

Still, I'd trade +2 damage for a +5 to hit, or +4.5 damage for a +7 to hit any day of the week.

Why not play a Cave Druid/ Master of Many Styles monk, become a huge ooze, Engulf your enemy (so you can constrict), then constrict 3x a turn also dealing 3x more damage for each constrict letting you deal 108d8 damage a round? You'd be immune to poison, crits, blinds, etc.
Snickersnack wrote:
Why not play a Cave Druid/ Master of Many Styles monk, become a huge ooze, Engulf your enemy (so you can constrict), then constrict 3x a turn also dealing 3x more damage for each constrict letting you deal 108d8 damage a round? You'd be immune to poison, crits, blinds, etc.

Because it's a lot cooler to smack an enemy with a weapon of some kind than to constrict him within my bodily fluids?

Snickersnack wrote:
Why not play a Cave Druid/ Master of Many Styles monk, become a huge ooze, Engulf your enemy (so you can constrict), then constrict 3x a turn also dealing 3x more damage for each constrict letting you deal 108d8 damage a round? You'd be immune to poison, crits, blinds, etc.

For the same reason I'm not building a build based on summoning flaming rock elementals and tossing them at enemies?

It's not what I want.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just flavor it as a barbarian with a really big sword he impales people with, man.

have a barbarian throw the slime man someday please.
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