I'm having a hard time figuring out the interactions between double-barrel weapons and the feats that allow additional attacks as well as iterative attacks.
Say I've got a 9th level Trench Fighter with the following feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Reload - Pistols (or double barreled pistols if it needs to be specified)
Rapid Shot
Quick Draw
Weapon Focus - Pistols (or double barreled pistols if it needs to be specified)
Dazzling Display
Gun Twirling
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
And say their ranged total attack bonus after weapon focus and training and all that stuff is +18
Would their attack bonus, if using both double-barreled pistols as a single-action, with two-weapon fighting, rapid shot, etc, be as follows...:
+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5/+5 for 1d8+X damage?
Or, do you roll once for the two attacks from the double-barreled pistols and take the damage twice, like such?
+10/+10/+10/+5/+5 for 2d8+2X damage?
The former. Gunslingers roll a lot of dice.
How does gun twirling give an extra attack?
I believe that attack breakdown is as follows:
2 for BAB +9.
2 for TWF and Imp. TWF
1 for Rapid Shot
So that's 5 attacks before the pistol.
Doubling this from double-barreled pistols gets you 10.
I just straight up disallow double-barreled firearms due to it not being clear how the work. It probably shouldn't be 10 attacks but I'm not sure what the ruling is. On top of that, I think Rapid Shot would be separate and un-doubleable (I've got no rule backup for this, to be honest), giving you 9 attacks.
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How does gun twirling give an extra attack?
It's not giving an extra attack, it's letting him reload as a free action with two weapons.
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Double barreled pistols do not double attacks, they add one extra per action(eg. fullround action). This means one extra attack per full attack, per pistol.
As per this example, if you normally have 5 atttacks and you double tap 2 double pistols then you would have 7 attacks at a -8 penalty(-4 from one pistol, -4 from the other) before normal TWF penalties. For a total of -12 on all attacks, -14 when using rapid shot
Double barreled muskets on the other hand actually double attacks at a -4, yeah they are really that awkward.
I didn't know Gun Twirling was a thing and it makes me happy. Off topic, but Sword Saint Samurai's Iaijutsu Strike says it happens when you hit with "your weapon." So Gunslinging Samurai who keeps holstering and firing with Iaijutsu. Kinda makes me happy.
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I didn't know Gun Twirling was a thing and it makes me happy. Off topic, but Sword Saint Samurai's Iaijutsu Strike says it happens when you hit with "your weapon." So Gunslinging Samurai who keeps holstering and firing with Iaijutsu. Kinda makes me happy.
Interestingly there are "melee" firearms in the form of double weapons. It could be really useful for a swordsaint, altought really awkward
Double barreled pistols do not double attacks, they add one extra per action(eg. fullround action). This means one extra attack per full attack, per pistol.
As per this example, if you normally have 5 atttacks and you double tap 2 double pistols then you would have 7 attacks at a -8 penalty(-4 from one pistol, -4 from the other) before normal TWF penalties. For a total of -12 on all attacks, -14 when using rapid shot
Double barreled muskets on the other hand actually double attacks at a -4, yeah they are really that awkward.
From a literal read of the rules you get a flat -4, not -4 multiplied geometrically. You would have 10 attacks from a double discharge on each shot, with 6 at +10 and 4 at +5 like Exguardi said.
We don't allow more than a single free action reload of a weapon per full-attack per weapon. Under this ruling you get only 8 attacks, with 6 at +12 and 2 at +7 as rapid shot isn't needed. Gunslingers' have enough attacks with out the level of cheese from unlimited free reloads.
How does a TWF gunslinger ever reload? Need a free hand to do that, and weapon cords don't help you that turn. Does gun twirling let you hold two pistols in one hand while you load with the other?
How does a TWF gunslinger ever reload? Need a free hand to do that, and weapon cords don't help you that turn. Does gun twirling let you hold two pistols in one hand while you load with the other?
Gun Twirling + Quick Draw lets him sheathe a firearm as a free action so he can always have free hand for reloading.
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And people wonder why most GM's hate gunslingers
And people wonder why most GM's hate gunslingers
Because there will be no guns in my fantasy setting. None whatsoever.
Also because they don't understand how brutal the misfire rules are.
First one - and since double barreled have misfire 1-2 (1/10 chance of misfire) and you take 10 shots it is pretty likely one of your guns will jam and you dont have grit thing to Quick Clear so you need Reliable guns (i houserule that you cant reduce misfire to lower than 1, but that is just me)
Trench Fighters are intended for use with modern firearms, or where guns count as martial or simple weapons. This is why they don't get proficiency in firearms.
For the build to work, you'd probably want gunsmithing as well as proficiency (you can't take most combat feats for a weapon you aren't proficient in) and amateur gunslinger to get quick clear.
Overall, GMs who have permitted double barrelled guns generally regret it. Take that away and you get a decent archer who is on a par with most martials.
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Double barreled pistols do not double attacks, they add one extra per action(eg. fullround action). This means one extra attack per full attack, per pistol.
As per this example, if you normally have 5 atttacks and you double tap 2 double pistols then you would have 7 attacks at a -8 penalty(-4 from one pistol, -4 from the other) before normal TWF penalties. For a total of -12 on all attacks, -14 when using rapid shot
Double barreled muskets on the other hand actually double attacks at a -4, yeah they are really that awkward.
From a literal read of the rules you get a flat -4, not -4 multiplied geometrically. You would have 10 attacks from a double discharge on each shot, with 6 at +10 and 4 at +5 like Exguardi said.
We don't allow more than a single free action reload of a weapon per full-attack per weapon. Under this ruling you get only 8 attacks, with 6 at +12 and 2 at +7 as rapid shot isn't needed. Gunslingers' have enough attacks with out the level of cheese from unlimited free reloads.
You are completely wrong,
first, penalties stack, always
second :
This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
Its one extra per action, as in full round action, not one extra per attack. Obviously 99% people dont understand double barrled weapons.
Compare to double musket which actually doubles attacks because it has a different wording
This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack.If both barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate, taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
Compare to double musket which actually doubles attacks because it has a different wording
Well, that balances the cheese a bit. I guess they can be treated like Rapid Shot that can be used even with standard action but gives -4 penalty?
Its silly that they are so different, but oh well.
The thing to remember here is that the GM has total control over how many free actions a character can take per round. He is allowed to limit them by RAW at his own discretion.
If the game master sets the number of allowed free actions per round to, say 5, then all these shoot, holster, reload, shoot, draw, holster, shoot, reload routines go right out the window.
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Considering there are feats that allows one to reload a crossbow fast enough to be able to do iterative attacks, I know it shouldn't bother me; but for whatever reason, I am unable to suspend disbelief regarding this type of activity with gunslingers. Perhaps it's because I'm so intimately familiar with how muzzleloading firearms actually work.
Personally, I would rule that in order to get all of these attacks, you would have to quick draw different pre-loaded pistols—none of this quick draw to holster so you have a free hand to reload baloney.
Trench Fighters are intended for use with modern firearms, or where guns count as martial or simple weapons. This is why they don't get proficiency in firearms.
For the build to work, you'd probably want gunsmithing as well as proficiency (you can't take most combat feats for a weapon you aren't proficient in) and amateur gunslinger to get quick clear.
Overall, GMs who have permitted double barrelled guns generally regret it. Take that away and you get a decent archer who is on a par with most martials.
Not only are you not proficient, but you also don't have the prerequisites for or grit to fuel Gun Twirling.
Considering there are feats that allows one to reload a crossbow fast enough to be able to do iterative attacks, I know it shouldn't bother me; but for whatever reason, I am unable to suspend disbelief regarding this type of activity with gunslingers. Perhaps it's because I'm so intimately familiar with how muzzleloading firearms actually work.
Personally, I would rule that in order to get all of these attacks, you would have to quick draw different pre-loaded pistols—none of this quick draw to holster so you have a free hand to reload baloney.
Exactly.
When you've got muzzle-loading guns, you need to have multiple pre-loaded guns to have any chance of firing lots of shots in a very short period of time.The existing PF rules on firearms are way over the top compared to even an optimal experience of muzzle loading. Yeah, I know, PF is fantasy, so you can just say "because magic" and be done with it. Actually, I would have no problem with a gunslinger who had a magically reloading pistol firing multiple iterative attacks, but not one that wanted to reload his muzzle-loaders multiple times in the same round.
Assuming one allows double-barrelled pistols at all, seems like a gunslinger with one of them in each hand could take 4 single shots in rapid succession (assuming sufficient iteratives and TWF feats) or two double shots.
But, sadly, this is not RAW, so the only thing limiting the 10-shot wonder mentioned above would be a hard limit on the number of free actions you can take in a round. The DM can easily impose that, in order to get some small measure of sanity back into the massive-barrage madness that constitutes PF's firearm rules
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Considering there are feats that allows one to reload a crossbow fast enough to be able to do iterative attacks, I know it shouldn't bother me; but for whatever reason, I am unable to suspend disbelief regarding this type of activity with gunslingers. Perhaps it's because I'm so intimately familiar with how muzzleloading firearms actually work.
Personally, I would rule that in order to get all of these attacks, you would have to quick draw different pre-loaded pistols—none of this quick draw to holster so you have a free hand to reload baloney.
Consider it instead this way.
I'm holding two flintlock pistols. I'm ludicrously dextrous - after all, I'm a dex-based adventurer, call it level 6.
I fire each of them. That's two shots - at my full BAB eating the TWF penalties. I toss the pistol in my left hand up into the air! Then with my left hand, I reach into a bandolier, grab a packet, and break it between my fingers as I bring it to the barrel of my right-hand pistol. The packet is made of paper, possibly waxed to waterproof it, contains powder and a bullet, and is designed explicitly for this. I pour the powder in - then, even as it's still falling, I slam the rest of the cartridge in - paper first - so that the bullet is outermost, with a wad of the cartridge's paper between it and the poweder - and move my left hand to catch the now-falling pistol. I fire my right-hand pistol and repeat the process - just swapping sides.
Is it more than almost any person could do? Yes. Is it completely unreasonable compared to someone firing off 10 arrows in six seconds - two of them at the same time, then another two, then six plus as opponents nearby leave themselves open? Not hardly.
Considering there are feats that allows one to reload a crossbow fast enough to be able to do iterative attacks, I know it shouldn't bother me; but for whatever reason, I am unable to suspend disbelief regarding this type of activity with gunslingers. Perhaps it's because I'm so intimately familiar with how muzzleloading firearms actually work.
Personally, I would rule that in order to get all of these attacks, you would have to quick draw different pre-loaded pistols—none of this quick draw to holster so you have a free hand to reload baloney.
Consider it instead this way.
I'm holding two flintlock pistols. I'm ludicrously dextrous - after all, I'm a dex-based adventurer, call it level 6.
I fire each of them. That's two shots - at my full BAB eating the TWF penalties. I toss the pistol in my left hand up into the air! Then with my left hand, I reach into a bandolier, grab a packet, and break it between my fingers as I bring it to the barrel of my right-hand pistol. The packet is made of paper, possibly waxed to waterproof it, contains powder and a bullet, and is designed explicitly for this. I pour the powder in - then, even as it's still falling, I slam the rest of the cartridge in - paper first - so that the bullet is outermost, with a wad of the cartridge's paper between it and the poweder - and move my left hand to catch the now-falling pistol. I fire my right-hand pistol and repeat the process - just swapping sides.
Is it more than almost any person could do? Yes. Is it completely unreasonable compared to someone firing off 10 arrows in six seconds - two of them at the same time, then another two, then six plus as opponents nearby leave themselves open? Not hardly.
Is that pistol an unattended object when in the air? What happens if you take a 5 foot step?
These are the first questions I would run into if I tried this.
Is that pistol an unattended object when in the air? What happens if you take a 5 foot step?
These are the first questions I would run into if I tried this.
I'd say no, it's not unattended, and if you take a five foot step it's not as if you're one moment standing still, then lift one foot, stretch it out five feet, plant it, and drag yourself over in one moment. Even if the image is amusing.
If you're assuming you're dextrous enough to do this, I think correcting for small movements is not going to be a problem.
Why is it not unattended? They obviously had to throw it higher than 5 feet? There needs to be a reason other than, "Because I said."
Do not get me wrong, Bronnwynn, I love this sort of flash. The current state of the rules does not really support it though.
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I didn't know Gun Twirling was a thing and it makes me happy. Off topic, but Sword Saint Samurai's Iaijutsu Strike says it happens when you hit with "your weapon." So Gunslinging Samurai who keeps holstering and firing with Iaijutsu. Kinda makes me happy.
That's prevented by the introduction to the Sword Saint archetype (applies to all abilities):
The following benefits apply only when a sword saint is using a sword and carrying nothing in his other hand.
I apologize; I should've mentioned my original character concept thought out for doing this had a 1-level dip in Pistolero Gunslinger for grit, proficiency, and quick-clear. That's why it's 9th and not 8th level.
Also, I suppose it could be done much earlier with a tiefling that has a prehensile tail and the Grasping Tail feat. It eliminates the need for gun twirling, quick draw, weapon focus, and dazzling display.
Then, you only need...
Rapid Reload
Grasping Tail
TWF
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved TWF
Really, though, my question was more on the way that double-barreled pistols works when combined with extra attack feats. Pure RAW seems to be the answer is - horribly.
Why is it not unattended? They obviously had to throw it higher than 5 feet? There needs to be a reason other than, "Because I said."
Do not get me wrong, Bronnwynn, I love this sort of flash. The current state of the rules does not really support it though.
For the same reason Ioun Stones aren't unattended. Items in your general area, owned by you, and that can only be easily retrived by you are considered yours.
I might allow them to be shot by a readied action, using similar stats to the Ioun Stone's AC and such.
Also, simpler game rules.
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Here's the developer comment on double barreled pistols: link. Whatever the slight difference in wording may be, the intent seems to be that double-barreled pistols and double-barreled muskets can both double each attack you make, at a -4 penalty for each.
For some unsolicited advice: Be content with a single double-barreled pistol and replace those feats with something interesting.
That was based on playtest version of firearms and gunslinger tought, however im not sure about the intent since as of now there are 3 double firearms (double pisto, double musket, double shotgun) and all of the have different wordings and mechanics
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Considering there are feats that allows one to reload a crossbow fast enough to be able to do iterative attacks, I know it shouldn't bother me; but for whatever reason, I am unable to suspend disbelief regarding this type of activity with gunslingers. Perhaps it's because I'm so intimately familiar with how muzzleloading firearms actually work.
Personally, I would rule that in order to get all of these attacks, you would have to quick draw different pre-loaded pistols—none of this quick draw to holster so you have a free hand to reload baloney.
Consider it instead this way.
I'm holding two flintlock pistols. I'm ludicrously dextrous - after all, I'm a dex-based adventurer, call it level 6.
I fire each of them. That's two shots - at my full BAB eating the TWF penalties. I toss the pistol in my left hand up into the air! Then with my left hand, I reach into a bandolier, grab a packet, and break it between my fingers as I bring it to the barrel of my right-hand pistol. The packet is made of paper, possibly waxed to waterproof it, contains powder and a bullet, and is designed explicitly for this. I pour the powder in - then, even as it's still falling, I slam the rest of the cartridge in - paper first - so that the bullet is outermost, with a wad of the cartridge's paper between it and the poweder - and move my left hand to catch the now-falling pistol. I fire my right-hand pistol and repeat the process - just swapping sides.
Is it more than almost any person could do? Yes. Is it completely unreasonable compared to someone firing off 10 arrows in six seconds - two of them at the same time, then another two, then six plus as opponents nearby leave themselves open? Not hardly.
No. Like I said, I am unable to suspend disbelief. I do understand it's a game and all that, but the game requires a suspension of disbelief to accept certain things, and this aspect of the gunslinger brings it to a screeching halt. So the notion of tossing these things in the air in order to free up a hand to load another is even more rediculous in my mind.
No. Like I said, I am unable to suspend disbelief. I do understand it's a game and all that, but the game requires a suspension of disbelief to accept certain things, and this aspect of the gunslinger brings it to a screeching halt. So the notion of tossing these...Considering there are feats that allows one to reload a crossbow fast enough to be able to do iterative attacks, I know it shouldn't bother me; but for whatever reason, I am unable to suspend disbelief regarding this type of activity with gunslingers. Perhaps it's because I'm so intimately familiar with how muzzleloading firearms actually work.
Personally, I would rule that in order to get all of these attacks, you would have to quick draw different pre-loaded pistols—none of this quick draw to holster so you have a free hand to reload baloney.
Consider it instead this way.
I'm holding two flintlock pistols. I'm ludicrously dextrous - after all, I'm a dex-based adventurer, call it level 6.
I fire each of them. That's two shots - at my full BAB eating the TWF penalties. I toss the pistol in my left hand up into the air! Then with my left hand, I reach into a bandolier, grab a packet, and break it between my fingers as I bring it to the barrel of my right-hand pistol. The packet is made of paper, possibly waxed to waterproof it, contains powder and a bullet, and is designed explicitly for this. I pour the powder in - then, even as it's still falling, I slam the rest of the cartridge in - paper first - so that the bullet is outermost, with a wad of the cartridge's paper between it and the poweder - and move my left hand to catch the now-falling pistol. I fire my right-hand pistol and repeat the process - just swapping sides.
Is it more than almost any person could do? Yes. Is it completely unreasonable compared to someone firing off 10 arrows in six seconds - two of them at the same time, then another two, then six plus as opponents nearby leave themselves open? Not hardly.
Sorry, can't help you any more than that. I personally am not a fan of gunslingers anyways, but that's more because they need a lot of weird s$#! to work and you have to deal with misfires - unless you go bolt ace, which is one of the more poorly written archetypes I've seen from Paizo, since it leaves lots of gunpowder centric stuff. Like your starting gun.
No. Like I said, I am unable to suspend disbelief. I do understand it's a game and all that, but the game requires a suspension of disbelief to accept certain things, and this aspect of the gunslinger brings it to a screeching halt. So the notion of tossing these...
You're right. Rubbing guano in your fingers, mumbling words, and having a ball of fire appear 500 feet away from you makes total sense, but moving with preternatural speed and dexterity is outright foolish.
Oh, and before someone says it, I'll go ahead and give the main argument against what I just said. Because magic.
ou're right. Rubbing guano in your fingers, mumbling words, and having a ball of fire appear 500 feet away from you makes total sense, but moving with preternatural speed and dexterity is outright foolish.
It's a well known fact that demolition experts are innately drawn to the smell of guano, and many have taken to rubbing it on their hands before they detonate explosives of any kind. Needless to say, this poses logistical and tactical problems for any kind of military demolitions crew, which is forced to both stock guano and ensure that their demolitions crew has sufficient time to rub the guano in fully before they detonate anything - an obvious problem when a team is under fire.
Also, guano corrodes plastics like a mother.
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No. Like I said, I am unable to suspend disbelief. I do understand it's a game and all that, but the game requires a suspension of disbelief to accept certain things, and this aspect of the gunslinger brings it to a screeching halt. So the notion of tossing these...You're right. Rubbing guano in your fingers, mumbling words, and having a ball of fire appear 500 feet away from you makes total sense, but moving with preternatural speed and dexterity is outright foolish.
Oh, and before someone says it, I'll go ahead and give the main argument against what I just said. Because magic.
Like I said, the game requires a suspension of disbelief. Elements of the gunslinger breaks that suspension for me. Sorry you're unable to understand that.
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So it's the Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit thing again?
My class type is divine caster, so you're ok with me pulling the angelic servants of the gods through the multiverse to go slap some orc around, but because his class type is martial he's not allowed to even get close to an old Hong Kong movie without your suspension of disbelief crashing down around your ears.
Seems reasonable.
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So it's the Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit thing again?
My class type is divine caster, so you're ok with me pulling the angelic servants of the gods through the multiverse to go slap some orc around, but because his class type is martial he's not allowed to even get close to an old Hong Kong movie without your suspension of disbelief crashing down around your ears.
Seems reasonable.
Please tell me which movie allows 10 shots in 6 seconds with muzzle loading double barreled guns. This is a level of movie magic that even Feng Shui doesn't allow.
But yeah, for some of us some aspects of the game do have to mirror reality more than other aspects. One of the reasons that Earthdawn worked so well for some of us is because the "martials" were explicitly every bit as magical as the spell casters. As long as they are supposed to NOT be magical then some vague sanity rules SHOULD apply. "No more unrealistic than Action Adventure movies" is a standard I can live with. "Less realistic than superhero movies" isn't.
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So it's the Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit thing again?
Linkified for your convenience, this always makes me laugh, its basically a demostration of how pathfinder balance operates
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Please tell me which movie allows 10 shots in 6 seconds with muzzle loading double barreled guns.Not taking sides, but I think the movie is Pirates of the Caribbean...I really can't recall them ever reloading any of their firearms...
As far as I can recall (first movie only) they basically kept to the usual model in movies set in that era. Fire a gun, maybe draw and fire a second, then use swords for the real fighting.
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Please tell me which movie allows 10 shots in 6 seconds with muzzle loading double barreled guns.Not taking sides, but I think the movie is Pirates of the Caribbean...I really can't recall them ever reloading any of their firearms...
Most action movies dont take reloading as a factor unless they want to stress it for some reason. Rambo would be really lame if we had to bear with 20 mins of proper reloading time
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As far as I can recall (first movie only) they basically kept to the usual model in movies set in that era. Fire a gun, maybe draw and fire a second, then use swords for the real fighting.
Right, but isn't the topic at hand, a character that is rapidly swapping firearms so they can shoot them faster. Certainly seems similar.
As for reloading slowness, ever played a video game that kept track of how many bullets were in each clip/cartridge? I don't think I've played any like that. I've certainly done it in shadowrun...
If you think muskets have slow reload, try loading bullets into one of those drum or belt fed firearms. Sure, in combat, you quickly swap drums/belts, but out of combat there is lots of preparation. Especially if your planning an alternating mix of ammo types (very common).
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They don't use old-fashioned guns, but the characters in the Matrix could reasonably move fast enough to pull that set of moves off.
They aren't "magical", really, but they bend reality to and just past it's limits. Seems like a fantasy martial character to me.
Fantasy characters bend and push past the limits of reality all the time. Look at LotR.
I mean, really, Legolas popping eyeballs out of skulls from unrealistic distances that no humanoid, even the better-at-everything-than-humans Tolkein elves could possibly see...WITHOUT the aid of any magic...is okay? So, preternatural vision and hand-eye coordination without magic is okay, but preternatural dexterity and speed isn't?
If you want an extra attack throw in wild rager barbarian for an extra attack for an additional -2 to all attacks.