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Double Barrel Pistol Questions


Gunslinger Discussion - Round 2


1. If I "double tap" both barrels at the same target is it two attacks?

2. If I take the penalty can I fire both barrels with Dead shot? If so does the Dead Shot affect both barrels or just one? Please provide and example of how the damage math would work.

3. If I have two double barreled pistols and two weapon fighting(improved and greater), plus a glove of storing, can I make (at level 20) 14 attacks (assuming rapid reload and paper cartridges)?

Bonus question: Can I make advanced versions of the basic firearms?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Abraham spalding wrote:

1. If I "double tap" both barrels at the same target is it two attacks?

2. If I take the penalty can I fire both barrels with Dead shot? If so does the Dead Shot affect both barrels or just one? Please provide and example of how the damage math would work.

3. If I have two double barreled pistols and two weapon fighting(improved and greater), plus a glove of storing, can I make (at level 20) 14 attacks (assuming rapid reload and paper cartridges)?

Bonus question: Can I make advanced versions of the basic firearms?

1. It is one action, two attack rolls. I fire as a standard action, it is two attack rolls. If I fire as part of a full-attack action, it is one of those attacks, but two attack rolls.

2. You can use both shots of a double barrel pistol with dead shot. Both attacks take a -4 to the attack roll. Each shot gains each attack roll with the same effect, but with lower accuracy.

3. Tricky. I think this is what I think you are doing. Starting with a double pistol in one hand, firing all but 8 bullets (four attacks, 8 attack rolls) with the double pistol (at base attack plus double barrel pistol penalties at +12/+7/+2/-3 for each) then use the glove of storing to get your second pistol in the off hand (since you can't reload without without a free hand) to get the off-handed weapon attacks (two at +12 and two at +7, just counting base attack and penalties for two-weapon fighting and the double barrel pistol). Of course you would have to drop or put away the first pistol so you could reload the barrel. All of those shots at a misfire of 1-2.

Now all of that follows the letter of the rules...I guess...except for the fact that to pull it off, you rarely have a weapon in each hand, if I'm understanding your thinking clearly. If that's the case, I think I would call shenanigans.

Bonus question answer: Ah, well...ah...no.


Then it also stands to reason that vital strike would affect both barrels too.

On number 3 you'll be taking a total penalty of -8 (-4 for the off hand attacks, -4 for the double barrels) and be eating up a lot of free actions, but for the number of shots you were getting off... some people would think it's worth it!

On the bonus question: I wasn't sure -- it would seem odd to me that someone could make a shotgun or revolver, but not make a safer double barreled pistol, or dragon pistol (with better range too), but at the same time I understand what a pain it would be to figure out rules for it too.

Perhaps 'advanced' should be like masterworked where you 'pay' a large amount extra to add in the bonuses from it? Meh doesn't matter really since the fire arm rules are already done I guess.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suspect the INTENT was to only really work with attack actions.

If you use it as a full attack action, you get two attacks, one for each barrel, not two attacks for every attack of your base attack bonus (that would be UNBELIEVABLY broken). A full attack action is a single action, even though it allows for multiple attacks. The multiple attacks aren't themselves actions. The developers have been VERY clear in their rulings on this with other feats and mechanics.

I also suspect the game designers will make firing the gun in this way a standard action in its own right, so it won't stack with things like Vital Strike. It would ruin things like Shot on the Run, but also keeps closed the can of worms hard to answer questions that arise from threads like this.

EDIT: I just noticed that a designer was the first responder.

Are you aware, Stephen, that your #1 ruling breaks the double barrel pistol? As written there is nothing stopping the gunslinger from reloading both barrels as a free action and "double-tapping" as part of every attack in his full attack sequence.

I'm sorry, but any weapon that lets you double the number of attacks you would otherwise get (even at -4 to hit) is broken.

At the very least, you need to change the wording to say you can only "double tap" once in a full attack sequence and that all the attacks in the sequence would suffer a -4 to hit.


anyone ever fire a double barrel pistol or double barrel shot gun with both barrels at the same time? Thats a lot of kablam! There is a reason it doesn't happen except in life or death and up close and ugly situations! It's bad juju (tons of fun!) but bad juju. You could break a wrist with double barreling it.

My suggestion is IF you are going to double barrel a weapon like that that it cause 1d4 non lethal by doing it (and there are feats to counter that, if you so choose to build that way) that would be the proper draw back to double barreling,"If I'm gonna do this, it's gonna smart!"

Taldor

Ravingdork wrote:
I'm sorry, but any weapon that lets you double the number of attacks you would otherwise get (even at -4 to hit) is broken.

This. I would tend to agree... with. A DM's nightmare if you ever land an "ALL ATTACKS MULTIPLIED BY TWO" weapon on the unwashed player masses! [shudders]


Actually I think an "unwieldy" trait that renders an one handed weapon incapable of being used in an off hand would handle this -- if it is decided it is really a problem.

Personally I think the total of -8 (-4 for two one handed weapons and -4 for double tapping) to attack before deadly aim is taken into account (or range increments) is enough of a drawback to limit how often we'll see this.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Actually I think an "unwieldy" trait that renders an one handed weapon incapable of being used in an off hand would handle this -- if it is decided it is really a problem.

Personally I think the total of -8 (-4 for two one handed weapons and -4 for double tapping) to attack before deadly aim is taken into account (or range increments) is enough of a drawback to limit how often we'll see this.

I like the 1d4 non lethal, give it more 'grit' , make it so, number one!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ranged weapons should NOT be classified as one-handed or two-handed weapons to begin with. It's never been done before. Why are they changing it now?


Ravingdork wrote:
Ranged weapons should NOT be classified as one-handed or two-handed weapons to begin with. It's never been done before. Why are they changing it now?

Crossbow.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ranged weapons should NOT be classified as one-handed or two-handed weapons to begin with. It's never been done before. Why are they changing it now?
Crossbow.

That's a ranged weapon, not a light, one-, or two-handed weapon. These categories are defined game terms with defined game effects. There has never been a ranged light weapon, a ranged one-handed weapon, or a ranged two-handed weapon in the history of D&D.

Look at the weapons table in the core book, or in any of the 3.0 v3.5 books, and you will see what I mean.

There is a BIG difference between a one- or two-handed weapon, and a ranged weapon that requires one or two hands to use. The former is a game term which has specific in game effects.

For example, a buckler applies a -1 penalty to attack rolls to any one- or two-handed weapon in that hand, but not to ranged weapons.

Taldor

Abraham spalding wrote:

Actually I think an "unwieldy" trait that renders an one handed weapon incapable of being used in an off hand would handle this -- if it is decided it is really a problem.

Personally I think the total of -8 (-4 for two one handed weapons and -4 for double tapping) to attack before deadly aim is taken into account (or range increments) is enough of a drawback to limit how often we'll see this.

LOL! -8 or -16... the guy is hitting TOUCH AC!!! how does a penalty to attack even cause for the slightest concern? this is the class where you load up on all kinds of feats that give you bonuses for attack penalties!!

Taldor

Ravingdork wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ranged weapons should NOT be classified as one-handed or two-handed weapons to begin with. It's never been done before. Why are they changing it now?
Crossbow.

That's a ranged weapon, not a light, one-, or two-handed weapon. These categories are defined game terms with defined game effects. There has never been a ranged light weapon, a ranged one-handed weapon, or a ranged two-handed weapon in the history of D&D.

Look at the weapons table in the core book, or in any of the 3.0 v3.5 books, and you will see what I mean.

There is a BIG difference between a one- or two-handed weapon, and a ranged weapon that requires one or two hands to use. The former is a game term which has specific in game effects.

For example, a buckler applies a -1 penalty to attack rolls to any one- or two-handed weapon in that hand, but not to ranged weapons.

Ravingdork has a good point. The weapon description of crossbows in the core rules goes to great lengths in saying how you can handle crossbows. The Inner Sea book just lists them under "one handed firearms" or "two handed firearms".


To address the "it's not really a penalty" theory:

A -8 to hit will be enough to turn that touch attack into a normal attack in most cases -- basically your +11 at level 11 turns into a +1 (after rapid shot) -- before deadly aim, cover, et. al. on your first attack... by your last attack you are actually at -9 to hit before modifiers are applied.

If they are out of your first range increment (20 feet normally) it's no longer a touch attack, and you need specialized equipment (paper cartridges at 6 gp a pop minimum plus a glove of storing) and a lenient GM that allows you all the free actions in the world for it to work.

This is on top of all the problems with two weapon builds in the first place (cost of multiple weapons, feat costs, etc).

Consider that the level 11 gunslinger with this that is a human has the following:

Dex 27 (total)
2 x +2 distance double pistols (20,050gp each)
Boots of speed

Feats:
H - Deadly Aim
1st - rapid reload
B - Gunsmith
3rd - point blank shot
4th - precise shot
5th - two weapon fighting
7th - weapon focus
8th - improved two weapon fighting
9th - rapid shot
11th - greater two weapon fighting

(Literally the only build that can do this by the way at level 11)

His attack total:
+11 (BAB) +8(Dex) +2(pistol) +1(weapon focus) + 1 (haste) +1 (point blank shot -- if within 30 feet) = +24

So:

+24 - 4 (two weapon fighting) - 4 (double tap) - 2 (rapid reload) - 3 (deadly aim)= +11/+11(haste)/+11/+11(rapid shot)/+11/+11(main hand)/+11/+11(off hand)/+6/+6(main hand)/+6/+6(off hand)/+1/+1(main hand/+1/+1(off hand)

Even assuming that armor/shields/natural armor accounts for +10 on AC the level 11 monster has an AC of 19~20 on average still.

And your damage? 1d8+2+8+6+1=1d8+18 per shot


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ravingdork has a good point. The weapon description of crossbows in the core rules goes to great lengths in saying how you can handle crossbows. The Inner Sea book just lists them under "one handed firearms" or "two handed firearms".

Daggers then -- or the sling (which is one hand* needing two to reload), perhaps some light hammers?

All of which are ranged weapons -- and bows specifically are two handed weapons -- you can't use them at all with only one hand.

Handiness has already been an issue for ranged weapons that is covered again, and again -- it's nothing new.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ravingdork has a good point. The weapon description of crossbows in the core rules goes to great lengths in saying how you can handle crossbows. The Inner Sea book just lists them under "one handed firearms" or "two handed firearms".

Daggers then -- or the sling (which is one hand* needing two to reload), perhaps some light hammers?

All of which are ranged weapons -- and bows specifically are two handed weapons -- you can't use them at all with only one hand.

Handiness has already been an issue for ranged weapons that is covered again, and again -- it's nothing new.

Daggers and light hammers are not ranged weapons. They are melee weapons that can be thrown as a ranged attack.

Slings and bows are not -handed weapons. They are ranged weapons that require one or two hands to use properly (as stated in their descriptions).

Again, the game terminology being used (and the rules behind them) make ALL the difference.


Ravingdork wrote:

Daggers and light hammers are not ranged weapons. They are melee weapons that can be thrown as a ranged attack.

Slings and bows are not -handed weapons. They are ranged weapons that require one or two hands to use properly (as stated in their descriptions).

Again, the game terminology being used (and the rules behind them) make ALL the difference.

Oh yes, of course because you know just because they have a range increment means they aren't ranged weapons at all -- except the fact they are and can be used with two weapon fighting, et al while doing such.

Again the math holds out that this isn't a problem.

Rule Quotes:

Quote:
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
Quote:
Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Oh yes, of course because you know just because they have a range increment means they aren't ranged weapons at all -- except the fact they are and can be used with two weapon fighting, et al while doing such.

Huh? I'm not following? What does TWF have to do with it?

Abraham spalding wrote:
Again the math holds out that this isn't a problem.

I was never concerned about that math. I'm concerned about the lack of consistency. If Paizo breaks the established format half way through their own product line, its going to generate a LOT of confusion.

Rules lawyers like me have enough headaches already.

EDIT: Saw your edit. I raise your quote with this one (a little further down on the page):

"Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."


See above -- nothing out of the ordinary yet -- ranged weapons already come with 'handiness' applied, as proven by the above rules quotes which specify that thrown weapons are ranged weapons.

However I'm tired and obviously getting cranky so I'm going to bed and will be happy to continue (hopefully much more politely on my end) this conversation sometime tomorrow (after I've slept of course).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

See above -- nothing out of the ordinary yet -- ranged weapons already come with 'handiness' applied, as proven by the above rules quotes which specify that thrown weapons are ranged weapons.

However I'm tired and obviously getting cranky so I'm going to bed and will be happy to continue (hopefully much more politely on my end) this conversation sometime tomorrow (after I've slept of course).

In the end, you may be right that melee throwing weapons are also ranged weapons (I'm not infallible), but ranged weapons are still not light, one-, or two-handed weapons--that's the domain of melee weapons.

Just because they are described as needing one or two hands does not mean they have the light, one-, or two-handed gaming terms attached to them.


I quoted the same thing:

Quote:
"Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."

Thrown weapons don't have to be ineffective in melee -- projectile weapons are not effective in melee. As such a weapon that isn't projectile (i.e. a thrown weapon) may be effective in melee.

With your suggestion how do you decide the penalties for two weapon fighting with throwing weapons if you only make ranged attacks?

The rules already tell use -- most of the thrown weapons are "light" weapons and therefore take the penalties for being such as opposed to the higher penalties for being one handed.

In the end we have ranged weapons that also have [/b]handiness[/b].

The problem is you are trying to ascribe parts of one type of ranged weapon to another... which doesn't hold up. Until now bows have been one of only ranged weapon that were two handed (besides the halfling sling staff which is two handed)... crossbows had their own special add-ons but that was further explanation and would have been better handled by simply placing them in the correct categories to begin with.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Combat Chapter--
"Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon."

They are treated as light, or one-handed. That does not make them so. (Just like how mithral full plate is still heavy armor, albeit heavy armor with properties of many medium armors.) That's because they are ranged weapons.


Which doesn't cover the other ranged weapons that are not special cases -- i.e. the dagger, throwing axe, light hammer, or short spear. Why are they not covered? Because they are ranged weapons that have their handiness set already.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Which doesn't cover the other ranged weapons that are not special cases -- i.e. the dagger, throwing axe, light hammer, or short spear. Why are they not covered? Because they are ranged weapons that have their handiness set already.

They're "handedness" is set by the melee weapons table and didn't need further clarification as far as TWF was concerned.

If you wish to debate this further, please do so here. At least then it might get the attention it deserves, rather than just be an off-topic topic in this thread.

Taldor

Abraham:

Ravingdork is right in this case. The way they list firearms in the Inner Sea book is not consistent with the Core rules, and can be a cause for concerns. All projectile weapons in the Core rules, except the sling, must be fired with two hands in "normal" mode (yes, you can fire a crossbow one handed BUT with penalties).

Thrown weapons are a different category: don't use them here for the sake of this comparison. Here, you need to look at crossbows and bows in the Core rules, how they are listed in the tables, described in the text, and then look at the Inner Sea book firearms (forget about the UC lists for a while, as they are not official).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Abraham:

Ravingdork is right in this case. The way they list firearms in the Inner Sea book is not consistent with the Core rules, and can be a cause for concerns. All projectile weapons in the Core rules, except the sling, must be fired with two hands in "normal" mode (yes, you can fire a crossbow one handed BUT with penalties).

Thrown weapons are a different category: don't use them here for the sake of this comparison. Here, you need to look at crossbows and bows in the Core rules, how they are listed in the tables, described in the text, and then look at the Inner Sea book firearms (forget about the UC lists for a while, as they are not official).

It would mean a lot to me if you could post your support in THIS THREAD as the developers are already giving it some attention.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
All projectile weapons in the Core rules, except the sling, must be fired with two hands in "normal" mode (yes, you can fire a crossbow one handed BUT with penalties).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descrip tions/crossbow-hand

And it's core. Though, I admit the specification on firearms being two/one-handed weapons seems like an unecessary complicatedness.

Taldor

Maxximilius wrote:
Quote:
All projectile weapons in the Core rules, except the sling, must be fired with two hands in "normal" mode (yes, you can fire a crossbow one handed BUT with penalties).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descrip tions/crossbow-hand

And it's core. Though, I admit the specification on firearms being two/one-handed weapons seems like an unecessary complicatedness.

...ok: except the sling AND hand-crossbow... sheesh! :P

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